Saga Edition Thread III: Saga Academy

[Nerd-o-rama]

Anybody have any experience or advice on running massed battles?

I'm running a high-level game on this forum, and the first battle will be between:

Imperial side
ISD-II with full fighter complement (72x TIEs)
Small pirate fleet including consular frigate and several elite fighters

Rebel side
2x Nebulon-Bs
3x CR70s
Space station
Some fighters
Potential other forces (not listed here so as not to give away stuff to my players)

Anybody ever run a battle of this size? How did it work? Do you have any thoughts on the mass battle rules from clone wars for simplifying it?

I tried once, then I decided to just handwave it in the future.

A lot like a large D&D battle, really.

Still, it's doable. Have the ISD, Nebulons, and the space station stand off and fire volleys at each other while the pirate elites engage and destroy the corvettes, I'd say. It's hard for ships of a smaller scale to actually damage big capital type things, so match size categories and the fight will be less boring. Make it clear to the players that this is by far the best plan both IC and OOC, for their sanity. I'd also say invest in a rolling program that lets you easily work out the ISD and SS's attack routines with one button press, if you're not just going to handwave their slugging match.

TIE fighters are chaff against heroic characters of a decent level and as NPC minions of the players can probably be handwaved as tying up the enemy's low-level fighters. They exist to potentially make players blow their Vehicular Combat rolls to negate a 20 (minmaxers usually go for shields before agility for this reason, as when you have an SR in the 50-70 range even a crit from a TIE can be ignored).

If you want them to be useful, read up on the squadron rules from Starships of the Galaxy and premake them into, say, 18/9/6 squads of 4/8/12 rather than 72 individual units. Do likewise with the NR/Rebel fighters and remember that NR/Rebel fighters are way better than stock TIEs at doing damage.

[Mando Knight]

It really depends on what the players are in control of. If they're using fighters, then use the Tactical Fire options from Starships of the Galaxy to turn most of the capital ships into terrain, handwave the big ship combat, and make the players focus on either destroying the enemy fighter escort or hitting some other target of opportunity (like giving them a chance to destroy turbolaser batteries/engines/shields on a capital ship).

If you have the displeasure of trying to coordinate players moving capital ships, group the fighters up as much as you can to abstract their impact, and try to give them goals beyond just a massive slugging match, since those tend to get lopsided pretty quickly when an ISD-II is on the playing field (several of its defenses are mediocre, but it can belch out enough fire downrange to tear through smaller ships quite quickly).

[Magua]

Decide it in advance, and then alter it based off of the player's actions.

You can either just fiat decide it ("Imperials will win with heavy losses"), or, if you're a masochist, you can pre-play the battle solo without the players at your leisure (play both sides, roll all the dice, note down anything interesting that happens) and then go off of that during the game as "what will happen if the players do nothing."

At game itself, play out anything that directly effects the players. Alter the battle results based on what they do and how successful they are. For areas of the battle that the players aren't involved in, you can just go with your precomputed results.

But I would personally just fiat it.

[Doctor Awkward]

I have a couple of general rules questions if anyone could indulge me:

1. For the purposes of feats and talents like Artillery Shot, what is the difference between an "area attack" weapon and a "burst or splash" weapon?

2. When you are multi-classing to a new class, pg. 54 states that you gain one of the new classes feats from its list of starting feats. What do you do if your character already has every feat on that classes starting list. Like, for example, a Scout that took Point Blank Shot at first level, and goes into Scoundrel for the talents?

[Jallorn]

I have a couple of general rules questions if anyone could indulge me:

1. For the purposes of feats and talents like Artillery Shot, what is the difference between an "area attack" weapon and a "burst or splash" weapon?

2. When you are multi-classing to a new class, pg. 54 states that you gain one of the new classes feats from its list of starting feats. What do you do if your character already has every feat on that classes starting list. Like, for example, a Scout that took Point Blank Shot at first level, and goes into Scoundrel for the talents?

I believe the latter is more specific. Much like how a lemon is a fruit, a burst is a kind of area attack.

This is not, to my knowledge, written anywhere, but were I the GM, I would give the player a free feat.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I usually houserule that players can take a skill training from the new class's class skills instead of a starter feat half for exactly this reason.

Also a burst or splash weapon is a specific kind of area attack weapon. It includes grenades and heavy blaster cannons, but not flamethrowers or decksweepers or other "cone" weapons.

[robnar]

It really depends on what the players are in control of. If they're using fighters, then use the Tactical Fire options from Starships of the Galaxy to turn most of the capital ships into terrain, handwave the big ship combat, and make the players focus on either destroying the enemy fighter escort or hitting some other target of opportunity (like giving them a chance to destroy turbolaser batteries/engines/shields on a capital ship).

If you have the displeasure of trying to coordinate players moving capital ships, group the fighters up as much as you can to abstract their impact, and try to give them goals beyond just a massive slugging match, since those tend to get lopsided pretty quickly when an ISD-II is on the playing field (several of its defenses are mediocre, but it can belch out enough fire downrange to tear through smaller ships quite quickly).

The players are actually in charge of the star destroyer and its associated forces, so the displeasure is precisely them moving capital ships. They are attempting to capture the space station unharmed, so we'll see how it works.

I think I'll use the squadron rules Nerd-O-Rama mentioned and largely focus on hand-waving the fighter fight. I'm OK with it getting lopsided, since this is both their and my first go at it.

[Jallorn]

I'm sure the idea has come up before, but how badly would it skew things to give a talent at every level?

[LibraryOgre]

I'm sure the idea has come up before, but how badly would it skew things to give a talent at every level?

It speeds up most builds, and you have an overall increase in power, but I don't think it would be major... especially if you make it "a feat or a talent every level", and get rid of all bonus feat and normal feat progressions.

[Caelestion]

"Get a bonus feat or talent at every level" seems to be a fairly elegant way of dealing with it, especially with SAGA's already low-key character progression.

[LibraryOgre]

"Get a bonus feat or talent at every level" seems to be a fairly elegant way of dealing with it, especially with SAGA's already low-key character progression.

In fact, I did almost that with Classless Saga (it's been a good page since I mentioned that, right?), but I went with "Talents at even, feats at odd, bonus feat if level is divisible by 3".

[Caelestion]

That page has a note indicating that you edited it in February of this year: are you still using those rules?

[Jallorn]

I'm aware of classless (I approve) and even generic classless (where feats and talents are interchangeable) but I was pondering an increase in talents without a decrease in feats. So you'd get a talent every level, and still get a feat every other level.

[LibraryOgre]

That page has a note indicating that you edited it in February of this year: are you still using those rules?

I haven't used SAGA edition for anything in a long time... about 3 months after I posted that, I got a girlfriend, who quickly became my wife and mother to my now-two kids. We're lucky if we get to play once a month.

[Caelestion]

That's still more often than me and I'm a long way from the family life.

[Blind Orc]

Hello! I hope this is the appropriate thread to ask this

I am playing a Shard Iron Knight/Jedi, we are already level 3 and now going for lvl 4
I took 3 levels jedi so far, my stats are 14/14/12/10/16/10
1: Elusive target. Force Training
2: Skill Focus (Use Force)
3: Deflect, Force Training
(My force powers are: Surge, Battle strike x3, Negate Energy x2, Rebuke, Move Object)


I was planning to go for dual weapon mastery, BUT there are some problems:
- It is super easy for any enemy to withdraw and deny me attacks (and the elusive target benefit)
- The DM has no qualms to throw grenades at us (and if I take grenade defense, I will be probably end up eating missiles. And if I take evasion probably something else but he won't admit it)
- If I take Withdrawal Strike the enemies will probably just tumble away. Even with Tumble Defense they will probably prefer to eat an AoO than eat a full attack later.

So here is what I was planning to take after adjustments
4, Jedi 4: DWM I +1 str +1 dex
5, Jedi 5: Block
6, Jedi 6: Withdrawal Strike (at least not all enemies will have tumble), Force Training (Draw Closer x2, Disarming Slash x2)
7, Jedi 7 Grenade Defense

8, Jedi Knight 1: Shii-Cho form, +1 str +1 dex
9, Jedi Knight 2: Improved Battlestrike, DWM II
10, Jedi Knight 3: Multi attack prof.
11, Jedi Knight 4: Force Point Recovery
12, Jedi Knight 5: Multi attack prof., Double Strike +1 dex +1 wis

13, Jedi Master 1 Multi attack prof.

14, Jedi Knight 6 Force Power Mastery (Probably battlestrike, even though I will have to cast it on the previous round)
15, Jedi Knight 7 Multi attack prof., Triple Strike

16, Soldier 1 Devastating attack +1 str +1 wis
17, Soldier 2 Bantha Rush
18, Soldier 3 Melee Smash, Trip
19, Soldier 4 Battering Attack
20, Soldier 5 Stunning Strike +1 str +1 dex ( a total of +4 str, +4 dex and +2 wis)
__________________________

However like I said, grenade defense will probably be a waste. Also it isn't a guaranteed thing that I will be able to get into Jedi Knight and Jedi Master whenever I want, as I will have to fulfill the rp conditions in game (shouldn't be too hard, but I shouldn't bet it will happen exactly at lvl 8). I wouldn't plan to lvl 20, but the DM promised that this campaign will reach lvl 20

So I was thinking of instead of Jedi 6 and 7 I could get 1 level Scout for the evasion (which would delay my BAB but it doesn't matter), and some levels soldier for devastating attack or melee smash+ stunning strike.

My questions are: Does this build look ok, considering the circumstances? Is there an alternative build more focused on single attacks? I thought I should go for a crit build, but it looks like it is for darksiders.

Btw the rest of the party is a ranged soldier, and a force user jedi (who sometimes won't show up).

Thanks for reading.

[Mando Knight]

IMO, multi-attack melee is a fool's build in Saga unless you take the Melee Duelist PrC from KotOR, as there's not enough resources to give you mobility options otherwise. I generally don't advocate taking Triple Attack in general, due to the extreme penalty for picking up that last attack: enemies that you need the third hit for are also enemies that Triple Attack will make you miss on (character-scale Reflex scales very aggressively as you level up, to the point where a defense-focused Soldier becomes immune to all but nat-20s when dealing with your full attack). The exception there is with heavy weapons specifically: getting three area attacks is great at mopping up battlefield filler like droids or stormtroopers or hammering away at ground vehicles, and large starships tend to have low Reflex defenses compared to Attack bonuses, letting you make more-accurate shots at range or pound them to dust with a barrage of point-blank hits.

Withdrawal Strike is good because Acrobatics is an incredibly rare skill in Saga. Even with a flat DC 15, it's still Trained Only and the only Heroic classes that can train in it are Scoundrel and Jedi.

[Blind Orc]

Hmm the duelist looks good, sadly it probably is for dex based chars, for me the feat tax is too much... I will have to check again the Prestige classes, looks like I wasn't paying enough attention.

You have a point, maybe double+ triple attack is too much especially since it also takes 5 talents to completely remove the penalty. Considering that I will end up doing full attacks once every two rounds (probably less than that) it looks bad.

The withdrawing strike looks better now.

Thanks for the insight!

[Nerd-o-rama]

I've used triple attack with a guy with a grenade launcher as an NPC before and it was pretty effective for that character level (12ish). Did require giving him custom 12-round grenade clips though, but I let the players loot them so they forgave me.

[Xaragos]

Armor Crafting Question:

PC has large armor because she is a large race.

She wants to use integrated armor to add some nifty weapons to her armor.

Per the rules its -3 to your size aka Diminutive if you are Medium so equivalent weapon size is Small.

Using Table 2-1 in S&V would that mean that for this large set of armor, the min equipment size is Tiny and the weapon size is Medium?

Thanks!

[StriderITP]

Seems right, larger armor means larger equipment. You can put up to Tiny sized devices and Medium sized weapons.

[chainer1216]

Howdy, in a couple weeks ill be playing a 4th lvl protocol droid/martial artist. The current plan is soldier3/independent droid4/martial artist. Any general advice?

[AvatarVecna]

So, I've a question I feel is a bit silly and is almost certainly answered somewhere in Saga (possibly in errata), just because the idea that this hasn't occurred to somebody else previously would utterly baffle me, but I can't find an answer in this thread or in the books I have, and I'm assuming I've just missed it. I wanna know how the Commando tree talent "Demolitionist" interacts with the "Place Explosive Device" use of the Mechanics skill. My assumption is "multiply base damage, then add Demolitionist", partially because d20 games tend to not multiply bonus damage dice (such as Sneak Attack on crits), and partially because PEMDAS dictates multiplying before adding.

[Pleh]

So, I've a question I feel is a bit silly and is almost certainly answered somewhere in Saga (possibly in errata), just because the idea that this hasn't occurred to somebody else previously would utterly baffle me, but I can't find an answer in this thread or in the books I have, and I'm assuming I've just missed it. I wanna know how the Commando tree talent "Demolitionist" interacts with the "Place Explosive Device" use of the Mechanics skill. My assumption is "multiply base damage, then add Demolitionist", partially because d20 games tend to not multiply bonus damage dice (such as Sneak Attack on crits), and partially because PEMDAS dictates multiplying before adding.

I don't see anything in the errata I found with Google to suggest they've clarified.

Based on how careful they were to make sure that Burst Fire, Rapid Shot, and Careful Shot don't get to stack bonus damage dice, I'd say RAI at least would be you multiply, then add bonus dice.

However, I don't think I'd have a problem with ruling it the other way. Detonite and Explosive Charges have d6 damage dice, adding the bonus 2d6 after multiplying means they can add 12 points of damage at most and adding them before multiplying means they can add 36 points of damage at most.

We're quibbling over a maximum difference of 24 points of damage that ignores an object's DR on attacks that are dealing damage on the order of (detonite/explosive charge) 5-30/10-60, 10-60/20-120 (double damage), and 15-90/30-180 (triple damage).

I'm really not sure how much the point difference will matter here.

Sure, Demolitionist can be taken multiple times to stack extra damage dice, but by the time a character is dumping multiple talents into this one trick, I think it all balances out. They're a glass cannon that fizzles if they don't get the opportunity to place explosives and wreaks havoc if they ever do. Why not give them a few bonus points of damage?

If you're still feeling iffy on the deal, let them spend a Force Point to add their bonus dice to the multiplication side. I'm skeptical that the difference is going to substantially affect gameplay.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't see anything in the errata I found with Google to suggest they've clarified.

Based on how careful they were to make sure that Burst Fire, Rapid Shot, and Careful Shot don't get to stack bonus damage dice, I'd say RAI at least would be you multiply, then add bonus dice.

However, I don't think I'd have a problem with ruling it the other way. Detonite and Explosive Charges have d6 damage dice, adding the bonus 2d6 after multiplying means they can add 12 points of damage at most and adding them before multiplying means they can add 36 points of damage at most.

We're quibbling over a maximum difference of 24 points of damage that ignores an object's DR on attacks that are dealing damage on the order of (detonite/explosive charge) 5-30/10-60, 10-60/20-120 (double damage), and 15-90/30-180 (triple damage).

I'm really not sure how much the point difference will matter here.

Sure, Demolitionist can be taken multiple times to stack extra damage dice, but by the time a character is dumping multiple talents into this one trick, I think it all balances out. They're a glass cannon that fizzles if they don't get the opportunity to place explosives and wreaks havoc if they ever do. Why not give them a few bonus points of damage?

If you're still feeling iffy on the deal, let them spend a Force Point to add their bonus dice to the multiplication side. I'm skeptical that the difference is going to substantially affect gameplay.

I mean yeah, unless I end up taking Demolitionist a ridiculous number of times, it's a really small point difference. I imagine The difference between 17d6 and 21d6, or 32d6 and 36d6, isn't a giant one when it comes to blowing up walls or whatever, but where it seems like it'd make a bigger impact is determining how many charges we need to place in order to blow up {example super-large mega-HP structure vehicle/building}. Using a Star Destroyer as an example, that's either 36 Detonite (18000 before license) or 29 Detonite (14500 before license); that's either 19 Charges (28500 before license) or 17 charges (25500 before license). Now of course, basically all of that is "more money than you'll ever see" unless there's a Lineage Noble in the party (...which there is, come to think of it), but we don't necessarily need to be blowing up Star Destroyers at lvl 3, it's just good to have an idea on the smaller scale whether I can get away with just three Detonite (63d6 under generous interpretation), or if I'm gonna need to put up cash for a fourth (68d6 under strict interpretation) to break the 60d6 I need to blow through this {whatever}.

I'll link your post for the DM to see, and they can make a call on it. I'm largely in agreement with you that I think the RAI is that the bonus doesn't multiply, but I'm also unsure if it would break anything.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: This thread is not Darth Maul.