Saga Edition Thread III: Saga Academy

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, I know. But if you happen to want to kill someone in particular from half a kilometer away, you may as well do it efficiently.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So has anyone come up with any fixes to make Ion damage actually useful against vehicles/starships/very large droids? The lack of such functionality due to the high DT/DR/SR of larger mechanisms - the former of which especially scales up much faster than damage, plus the fact that most vehicles are going to have a crew member dedicated to recovering either their condition or SR every round - is a big complaint with the system and a regular point of insistence that vehicle-scale Ion damage is useless.

I'm wondering this mostly because my players are kleptomaniacs (for the Cause, at least - they're happy to throw captured resources at NPCs to make the Rebellion happen more efficiently) and at least one is gunning for Master Privateer. Putting aside the fact that MP has maybe one talent related to actually disabling Starships, they are going to want to do some buccaneering, or at least try to take on capital ships much later in the campaign, and Ion weapons should really figure into both of those.

What's a good fix? As a general thought, I might go something like "Ion weapons apply their full damage to check for SR penetration, then whatever penetrates is halved" to make them as good as lasers at taking down shields and then "If a starship is moved down the Condition Track by Ion damage, the condition is Persistent and can only be overcome through the Repair action or Jury Rig (which will last exactly long enough to limp away and then put you back where you started, or worse, because it's Jury-Rig)".

[LibraryOgre]

I think "Apply full damage to check for shield penetration" is a good option. I'd also be in favor of upping their raw damage, so that they're inferior when used against non-vulnerable targets, but superior when used against vulnerable targets.

[Mando Knight]

Vehicles also have DR, I'd just state that Ion and Stun damage are halved after reductions. And because Ion cannons have terrible dice and the half-damage thing, have them also work like a basic success on Shield Hit, and strip an extra 5 SR regardless of whether the attack penetrated the shields.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, the damage dice are on par with lasers (light ion = light laser, medium ion = heavy laser, heavy ion = light turbolaser), so other than not actually going all the way up the scale for capital ships, the damage seems fine, it's just that most ships have ludicrously inflated DT and ion damage is only beneficial if you can break DT. Both the ideas are good, but I can't help but wonder if the problem isn't Damage Threshold scaling rather than Ion damage per se, now that I look at it.

On the other hand, you're not really supposed to take on cruisers with anything lighter than Medium Turbolaser batteries on the "lethal" side of things either.

[RandomLunatic]

Yeah, but the damage per EP is worse. A 4d10x2 medium laser is 1 EP, a 4d10x2 medium ion cannon is 2. And the laser can autofire, while the ion can't.

I've contemplated just boosting ion weapons by 2-3 dice across the board, which makes them better at tearing down shields and gives better chances of cracking DTs. But the half HP (theoretically) makes lasers the faster option for taking an enemy out of the fight. I haven't gone all the way through to consider all the ramifications yet.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, but the damage per EP is worse. A 4d10x2 medium laser is 1 EP, a 4d10x2 medium ion cannon is 2. And the laser can autofire, while the ion can't.

Medium ion cannons do 5d10x2, comparable to Heavy lasers, which they share an EP cost of 2 with. And lasers can't autofire by default, not that it matters in space unless you have Burst Fire.

And I guess contrary to my earlier point Hapan Triple Ion Cannons are equivalent to Medium Turbolasers (for two less EP!), but they're both Illegal and have a higher base cost so good luck getting one of those away from Romance Novel Cover Land. Also, limited to Point Defense range, but on the plus side, they're Point Defense weapons. Hapans are weird.

[Sith_Happens]

And I guess contrary to my earlier point Hapan Triple Ion Cannons are equivalent to Medium Turbolasers (for two less EP!), but they're both Illegal and have a higher base cost so good luck getting one of those away from Romance Novel Cover Land. Also, limited to Point Defense range, but on the plus side, they're Point Defense weapons. Hapans are weird.

The heck kind of romance novels do you read?

...I want them.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Mostly just this one. And a general agreement that Isolder is Space Fabio.

Man, I'd never actually looked at the "original" cover before. The best part of this is Leia's are-you-kriffing-kidding-me expression.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I don't mean to spam this thread with multiple double posts, but I have both two rules questions and an observation:

1) Is there a design reason that Multiattack Proficiency (whatever) is a straight -2 to penalties instead of the -10/-5/-2/0 scaling that Dual Weapon Mastery (and every other bonus/penalty system in the game) has?
2) Hawk-bat Swoop: Standard Action or Full-Round Action? I'm tempted to say Standard, since it's basically a Force-souped-up Charge, but I wanted to ask the interwebs.

Observation) I have gone completely insane. Just a heads-up.

[Sith_Happens]

Observation) I have gone completely insane. Just a heads-up.

I might apply depending on how insane I am; if all goes well then by the end of the weekend I'll already be playing in three play-by-posts and GMing one.

[Philistine]

I don't mean to spam this thread with multiple double posts, but I have both two rules questions and an observation:

1) Is there a design reason that Multiattack Proficiency (whatever) is a straight -2 to penalties instead of the -10/-5/-2/0 scaling that Dual Weapon Mastery (and every other bonus/penalty system in the game) has?
2) Hawk-bat Swoop: Standard Action or Full-Round Action? I'm tempted to say Standard, since it's basically a Force-souped-up Charge, but I wanted to ask the interwebs.

Observation) I have gone completely insane. Just a heads-up.

1) I suspect the developers didn't really expect people to take Multiattack Proficiency more than once, to cover the last -2 remaining after Dual Weapon Mastery II. By the time you get to the level where DWMIII and MAP are available, Feats are rarer than Talents.
2) I've always seen that ruled as a Standard action. Partly because it's more-or-less a Charge, mostly because we assume that things are Standard actions if not otherwise specified.

[DragonHunter]

Hi guys, I am new to this forum. But anyway, I was wondering if there was a play by post SW: Saga Edition on Giantips that I could join. I am fairly familiar with the system and have experience in roleplaying from my 3.5 D&D days. I'd like to play a 4th degree droid scoundrel/privateer character, but would be willing to play any character that the party needs.

[Philistine]

In general, the best place to look for that would be the Finding Players sub-forum. Unfortunately I don't see any SWSE games currently recruiting, and it might be a little while before someone starts up a new one - D&D 3.5E and Pathfinder games vastly outnumber the games being run in all other systems combined.

[DragonHunter]

Thanks Phil, kind of a bummer cause I really wanted to try Saga, but anyway I will look for a 3.5 to join then. I wonder if anyone is running a Sunless Citadel campaign.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Hopefully you se this, but there are a couple paces to still find PbP for SWSE. Myth-Weavers.com is one.

A bunch of us that were active on the WOTC Saga Forum have made our own forum over at http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php

And lastly, give the d20 radio forums a try.

[Smorgonoffz]

Hello to everyone, i'd like to create a level 10* build for a swse character..........the catch core only but not for race*I might have already asked this question in the other tread)

The archetype is unarmed combatant, i'd like to know if it's viable both as force user and non force user.


Race : Human

Starting class: no idea jedi/Soldier?

The soldier is the king of combat, while having a jedi without force powers but lightsaber skills would be cool.






*We might be allowed non core books for prestige classes

[RandomLunatic]

Even with the Force, unarmed combat isn't viable in Core-only. The only support you have is the three MA feats and Combat Gloves, which taken together give you 1d10+1+STR damage. With an 18 STR, that's an average of 10.5 damage per hit, which is the same average as any non-Jedi schmuck with a blaster pistol with no feats or talents invested at all. Heck, the same character would do more damage by swinging a simple mace two-handed (12.5 damage per hit), again with no investment of build resources. Anything you do in core with unarmed will be done better by spending a feat on either WP (Advanced Melee Weapons) or WP (Lightsaber) instead of Martial Arts.

To make unarmed viable, you need splats. The two biggest ones for unarmed combat are the Legacy of the Force era CG and Galaxy of War.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Decided to throw something a bit different at my players. Browsing Wookieepedia, I found the "Force Vampire". Seemed interesting, so I decided to see if we could replicate him using the Vampire template from Pathfinder, with a few alterations.
Force Vampire

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Force Vampire CL 10
Medium Human Male Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 1
Force 5; Dark Side 12
Init +10; Senses Perception +10, Dark Vision
Languages Basic, Bocce, Sy Bysti
Defenses Ref 29 (flat-footed 26), Fort 21, Will 21; Block, Deflect
Hp 99; Threshold 21; DR 10
Speed 6 squares
Melee lightsaber +14 (2d8+11) or
Melee lightsaber +11/+11 (2d8+11) with Double Attack or
Melee slam +13 (1d4+10) or
Melee unarmed +13 (1d6+6) or
Ranged by weapon +9
Base Atk +8; Grp +10
Atk Options Double Attack (lightsabers)
Special Actions Redirect Shot
Special Qualities Fast Healing, Force Drain, Immunites
Force Powers Known (Use the Force +11): battle strike, Force slam, move object, cloak
Abilities Str 20, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 14
Talents Block, Deflect, Multiattack Proficiency (lightsabers), Redirect Shot, Weapon Specialization (lightsabers)
Feats Double Attack (lightsabers), Force Sensitivity, Force Training (3), Martial Arts I, Weapon Focus (lightsabers), Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers, simple weapons)
Skills Initiative +12, Jump +14, Perception +10, Stealth +15, Use the Force +11
Possessions Jedi robes, lightsaber (self-built)

And the template:

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Template Adjustment: CL+3
Improved Reflexes: Reflex defense improves by +6.
Defensive Abilities: DR 10, in addition to all of the defensive abilities granted by the undead type.
Fast Healing: A vampire also gains fast healing 5.
Immunities: Immune to all Mind Affecting effects.
Melee: A vampire gains a slam attack if the base creature didn't have one. Damage for the slam depends on the vampire's size. Its slam also causes energy drain (see below).
Energy Drain A creature hit by a vampire's slam (or other natural weapon) goes -1 step down the condition track, and is persistant. This ability only triggers once per round, regardless of the number of attacks made. If a creature falls completely down the condition track from thsi attack, it’s connection to the force is Severed permanetly.
Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.
Skills: Vampires gain a +8 racial bonus on Perception and Stealth checks.

Thoughts and opinions? Game-wise, this guy is a nightmare. Just in simulations in various encounters, this guys is evil. Just hitting you, regardless of damage, hurts, and I can only imagine the removal of the Force to a Jedi player. He isn't meant to be nice, he's meant to represent the perversion of the Force as presented and to be a real challenge.

[Waar]

Force Vampire CL 10
Medium Human Male Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 1

And the template:

Spoiler

Show

Template Adjustment: CL+3
Improved Reflexes: Reflex defense improves by +6.
Defensive Abilities: DR 10, in addition to all of the defensive abilities granted by the undead type.
Fast Healing: A vampire also gains fast healing 5.
Immunities: Immune to all Mind Affecting effects.
Melee: A vampire gains a slam attack if the base creature didn't have one. Damage for the slam depends on the vampire's size. Its slam also causes energy drain (see below).
Energy Drain A creature hit by a vampire's slam (or other natural weapon) goes -1 step down the condition track, and is persistant. This ability only triggers once per round, regardless of the number of attacks made. If a creature falls completely down the condition track from thsi attack, it’s connection to the force is Severed permanetly.
Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.
Skills: Vampires gain a +8 racial bonus on Perception and Stealth checks.

Thoughts and opinions? Game-wise, this guy is a nightmare. Just in simulations in various encounters, this guys is evil. Just hitting you, regardless of damage, hurts, and I can only imagine the removal of the Force to a Jedi player. He isn't meant to be nice, he's meant to represent the perversion of the Force as presented and to be a real challenge.

The ability scores alone are almost worth +2 CL,
So you want to give this thing +6 ref, +10 dr, fast healing 5, immunity to mind affecting, and +8 to perception and stealth for a bit more than +1 CL???? (I assume the CL 10 in the statblock was a typo)

No, this template gives way to much stuff way too cheap and is much stronger against non-force users (since they almost always target reflex defence) than it is against jedi (since their attacks usually target either fort or will or ignore the damage reduction).

The Cl change should be about +6 (but possibly with some form of bonus to will and fort), not +3.

[Sparx MacGyver]

No, it's actually CL8, and I bumped it by +CL3. Granted, even that may be too low. +6 may be more reasonable.

[Waar]

No, it's actually CL8, and I bumped it by +CL3. Granted, even that may be too low. +6 may be more reasonable.

Um a heroic level 8 character is normally CL8, so how did you get the CL10 in the statblock?

I think the problem is that CL in saga (CL X ~ Heroic level X character) isn't the same as the equivalent in d&d or pathfinder so while you might be able to convert a template,it affects CL differently.

[Mando Knight]

Straight up +10 DR is insane compared to the usual Vampire bit, where it's actually really easily overcome at appropriate encounters (DR x/magic might as well be DR 0 for a high-level creature like a vampire), plus normal vampires only get Energy Resistance against Cold and Electricity, whereas they'd be vulnerable to the usual Star Wars affair of shooting blasts of plasma everywhere. Halve the natural armor bonus or increase the CL adjustment to +6: CL is roughly equal to Heroic Level, and Reflex is also generally linear to that (and it must be, as there's little in the way of extra attack bonuses and only two full-BAB base classes). An extra +6 beyond the Dexterity adjustment and not conflicting with other modifiers is absurd at CL +2. A built-in auto-CT-kill effect, especially a persistent one, is also extremely powerful and should never be underestimated. Finally, stats are much lower in Saga than in high-level D&D, as there are very few items that increase raw stats, so the stat adjustment is also far more impactful than usual.

I would not use a normal fantasy vampire template for the Force Vampire, either, just like you shouldn't use the normal vampire template to represent a jiangshi (Chinese vampire).

Instead, I'd build the creature from the ground up focusing on Force Points. Make the unarmed attack drain Force Points first (probably via a secondary attack vs Will or Fortitude), then only deal CT damage when the target runs out, and don't make the CT damage persistent. Only sever the Force when the target dies (dropping to the bottom of the Condition Track is completely different), as doing so is so severe it can be a campaign-ender (no Force connection means no Force Points, ever, and you need those to fight Heroic opponents). Then, allow the Vampire to use a wide variety of extra powers by burning through its Force Points, basically just by giving it appropriate Force Powers and talents then allowing it to use more than one Force Point per round.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Um a heroic level 8 character is normally CL8, so how did you get the CL10 in the statblock?

I think the problem is that CL in saga (CL X ~ Heroic level X character) isn't the same as the equivalent in d&d or pathfinder so while you might be able to convert a template,it affects CL differently.

Typo. Supposed to be 11. I'll fix it.



Thank you for the feedback. I'll work on it.

[Smorgonoffz]

it's me again,after having read the responses to my previous questioni concede that an unarmed fighter using core only isn't feasible.

Has anyone any idea on core only builds(not for races):

Some examples:

-Pilot
-jawa Mechanic
-jawa jedi
-space hamster scout
-wookie scout
etc

[Nerd-o-rama]

1) Jedi, laser-sword or Force-wizardry focused, can be very good Core only, lacking mostly niche abilities (and some of the better Force Techniques, and Force Regimens which get around some of their Talent Taxes).

2) A buffer build based on Noble can be very powerful (especially if you consider "wads of cash" a buff).

3) Any kind of ranged build can be done well, although More Dakka-types are vastly enhanced by Clone Wars Campaign Guide and Legacy Era Campaign Guide, and everyone gets some better options out of Galaxy at War.

4) An Advanced Melee Weapon melee build works well too, at least if you have no objections to using a Vibro-Ax rather than something cooler-looking. It's vastly improved with talents and prestige classes from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, though.

5) Tanking is easily doable with Core only, though it does get much easier with a smattering of splatbooks, namely Scum & Villainy (to upgrade your armor), Clone Wars Campaign Guide (to stop Jedi from screwing you over), and Force Unleashed Campaign Guide (to give you some better taunts and debuffs)

6) And of course, the aim/ambush-based "Condition Track Killer" only needs Core stuff, although it can be helped by Galaxy At War, Scum & Villainy, and a certain obscure Prestige Class tucked away in Threats of the Galaxy.

Really, there's only a few build ideas that need supplements:

1) A Martial Artist really needs Galaxy at War to fight at full effectiveness.

2) A pilot's going to have way, way more options if you use Starships of the Galaxy, obviously.

3) A dedicated mechanic should really be using stuff from Starships of the Galaxy (or the web supplement that includes Tech Specialist, at least) and Scum and Villainy. I am also a fan of the Build Object rules from Force Unleashed Campaign Guide and the Scavenger feat to go with them. Supplemental Prestige Classes in Force Unleashed and Rebellion Era also give them more options at high levels.

4) Non-Force-based debuffing/crowd control is vastly enhanced by Galaxy of Intrigue and Unknown Regions.


And of course, every single book except Rebellion Era has at least one neat Species to play with.

Basically, everything gets enhanced by splats (Jedi less than others, in my opinion, even if they do have a dedicated book), but only a few things "require" them to be effective.

[Smorgonoffz]

2) A buffer build based on Noble can be very powerful (especially if you consider "wads of cash" a buff).

eads of cash aren't a Buff they're THE BUFF.

Anyway a jawa scout/noble with focus in mechanics and hacking( both literal and otherwise) seems fun.

[Nerd-o-rama]

See, you're not really getting the most out of your talents that way, especially not Core Only. Scoundrel has a ton of good computer-related talents in the Slicer tree, and Scout and Noble don't have anything related to that. Scout does have some alright mechanics-related talents under Fringer, though, if mostly in splatbooks again.

The way I look at it is that between class lists and Talents, Scoundrels are your best bet for "Technical" skills (with social or stealth as a secondary), scouts are your best bet for "Physical" skills (with technical as a secondary), and Nobles are your best bet for "Social" and Knowledge skills, as well as having a broad enough base to cover other niches like Treat Injury or Pilot if need be. Scoundrels and Scouts are also good with Stealth in different ways, and Scoundrels get talents that let them screw around with any type of skill in the Fortune tree.

tl;dr for a Jawa mechanoslicer I'd go Scoundrel or Scoundrel/Scout.

[Sparx MacGyver]

If you're into the buffer/tech side, go noble with a dip into scout. Basically picking up all your buffs from Noble and then Scout For Evasion and the Mechanics skill*. Then Swing over to Rebellion and take Improviser as your prestige class, and maybe mix it up a bit with Saboteur from Force Unleashed. It's not a core only build, but it's fun.

Otherwise I'd say just go Scoundrel, with maybe a few levels in Noble to pick up a few buffs/money. Or, as suggested, Scout/Scoundrel to maximize the idea you want.

*Scoundrel works well too, if you're mostly using it to gain Mechanics. Personally, I went with Scout for Evasion as my GM at that time was throwing area attacks at us non-stop. Almost every battle had them, and that talent was worth it's weight in gold. Freaking flamethrowers.

I've got a request:
A Codru-ji dual wielding lightsaber Jedi. Not a force wizard, mostly combat focused. I was given the array of 18, 18, 16, 14, 14, 12. The idea, at least in my head, is that this guy doesn't have an amazing connection to the force, but to make up for it, he has incredible lightsaber skills.

[RandomLunatic]

eads of cash aren't a Buff they're THE BUFF.

Anyway a jawa scout/noble with focus in mechanics and hacking( both literal and otherwise) seems fun.

I have to echo the above-Scout really has nothing for a gearhead in core. All I can find is Mechanics skill and the Jury-Rigger talent, which is really garbage. I've never seen anybody even use Jury-Rigging, and all it does is give you a re-roll, which will quickly become obsolete because it's a static DC 25, with a +5 bonus for using a toolkit. +10 for training and focus, and you're looking at 10s to pass before level and INT.

If you're into the buffer/tech side, go noble with a dip into scout. Basically picking up all your buffs from Noble and then Scout For Evasion and the Mechanics skill*. Then Swing over to Rebellion and take Improviser as your prestige class, and maybe mix it up a bit with Saboteur from Force Unleashed. It's not a core only build, but it's fun.

Otherwise I'd say just go Scoundrel, with maybe a few levels in Noble to pick up a few buffs/money. Or, as suggested, Scout/Scoundrel to maximize the idea you want.

*Scoundrel works well too, if you're mostly using it to gain Mechanics. Personally, I went with Scout for Evasion as my GM at that time was throwing area attacks at us non-stop. Almost every battle had them, and that talent was worth it's weight in gold. Freaking flamethrowers.

I've got a request:
A Codru-ji dual wielding lightsaber Jedi. Not a force wizard, mostly combat focused. I was given the array of 18, 18, 16, 14, 14, 12. The idea, at least in my head, is that this guy doesn't have an amazing connection to the force, but to make up for it, he has incredible lightsaber skills.

Hmm. What level and sources are you working with?

The fundamental problem with full attack melee builds is you can't full attack and move. And with Withdraw being a move action, the only people that will stand there and let a four-armed Jedi whale on them with two lightsabers are the Darwin Award candidates and people who have a nastier full attack routine than you do.

There's several ways around it, trading off maturation time for effectiveness.

EDIT: How hung up are you dual-wielding? With four hands, you can mix and match the more exotic lightsaber types, which makes controlling fights so much easier. Like two-hand a great lightsaber for damage, then add either a lightwhip or dual-phase saber for reach and a crossguard saber or guard shoto for defense.