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Thread: Underdark

  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by arixe View Post
    Lol i see an oppertunity to do a funny culture studdy those who assume all drow are evil are unreasonable and attack them on sight as well as though those who go into the under dark to understand what makes it tick. Im not saying all drow will negotiate or there arnt mindless beasts that will try to attack on sight. But i bet the players that get ganked have a dm or a party member that assume all drow kill or enslave all non drow. Its a prejudiced issue with the player and dm not the race
    Except the thing is that, over a sufficiently long time, yes, the Drow should be expected to attempt to kill or enslave all non-Drow. Maybe not right now, and maybe not even over the course of the campaign. But the culture of the race as written is that betrayal is inevitable.
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    This is might be true but theirs still oppertunity there if you can actually get a player to conect to a drow form a bond it makes that betrayal actually meaningful. It is s mostly the players fault if they just go around and kill anything that isnt a good race not all evil races are blood thirsty mindless killers. You can out wit them and use them and even redeem them you have a voice and roplay can be a decent weapon in it self.
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    Except the thing is that, over a sufficiently long time, yes, the Drow should be expected to attempt to kill or enslave all non-Drow. Maybe not right now, and maybe not even over the course of the campaign. But the culture of the race as written is that betrayal is inevitable.
    That is true of a significant number of surface races as well, to a point. While few are so self-destructively betrayal happy as the Drow, the idea that you could not maintain a long and mutually beneficial trade relationship with, say, Bregan D'aerth, is pretty silly. Any drow that is open to negotiation is not going to betray you until and unless they get something more out of it than just letting you give them stuff.

    The priestesses of Lolth are probably going to give you a hard time just for existing, but even they aren't quite so foolish as to indiscriminately eliminate any non-drow they come across out of reflex.
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    It's true that there are definitely surface races with whom no longest-term coexistence is possible. But the surface world is so much more varied that you can always just go elsewhere. The Underdark is a much more claustrophobic environment.
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    Bolded part. You know who else attacks the PC's on sight? An Orc Slaving Party. Or a Hobgoblin Slaving Party. Or a Hill Giant Slaving Party. Slaving parties are not the only thing Drow do. You will find Drow merchant caravan's, servants, slaves themselves. If the race is of the Humanoid type, you will not find a culture of complete uniformity.

    Except Orcs, Hobgoblins and Hill Giants are all kill on sight as much as drow are.

    Drow merchants are unlikely to sell to non drow and are in fact more likely to kill you, take your stuff and sell it.

    Servants and Slaves on the other hand would provide some interesting talking points,



    And even talking about Abberations like Mind Flayers, your being incredibly narrowminded in how games are run to think Mind Flayers will never consider talking to the PCs. Sure, its not exactly unlikely. But they are sentient creatures, they can make choices beyond their Alignment entry. A lone Mind Flayer, thrown from its convent, could seek help of the PCs to reduce its former convent for tossing it out. Or a convent at war with Drow and losing, taking any help it can get.

    True enough, though its far more likely to try and eat your brain/ enslave you then anything else. Why ask for help when it can just enslave you and use you that way?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    Bolded part. You know who else attacks the PC's on sight? An Orc Slaving Party. Or a Hobgoblin Slaving Party. Or a Hill Giant Slaving Party. Slaving parties are not the only thing Drow do. You will find Drow merchant caravan's, servants, slaves themselves. If the race is of the Humanoid type, you will not find a culture of complete uniformity.
    Encountering Drow in the underdark is not likely to result in a helpful Drow encounter. The vast majority of the time they aren't going to work with non-Drow. Merchant caravans won't sell to you and will probably just attack you. Slaves MIGHT help but that's a might. They're powerful but incredibly uniform. They're incredibly evil and MALICIOUS. You might have your stray offshoot but that's not really something that a party would expect before making contact (or if they do, it will likely kill them). It's unfair to even compare the Drow to other races on the surface because of how prolific the Drow are compared to other races. So while you can feasibly parlay with some of the more hostile surface races it's incredibly unlikely that a party will be able to do the same with the Drow. Unless they themselves are Drow, work for the Drow, or are the agents of some more powerful being which the Drow respect.

    And even talking about Abberations like Mind Flayers, your being incredibly narrowminded in how games are run to think Mind Flayers will never consider talking to the PCs. Sure, its not exactly unlikely. But they are sentient creatures, they can make choices beyond their Alignment entry. A lone Mind Flayer, thrown from its convent, could seek help of the PCs to reduce its former convent for tossing it out. Or a convent at war with Drow and losing, taking any help it can get.
    Anything is possible. But why would it not just do what its race is about...and enslave others? Seems a lot safer and more in line with their behavior than trying to forge alliances with a group of people who, on any other day, would probably cut off your head and call it a good deed.

    And really. We're just at the point I said. that the vast majority of the Underdark is hostile and will attack. Even if you align yourself with some aspect of the Underdark (which is already a morally questionable thing to do) you're now at odds against everything else. So it's going to have a huge emphasis on combat and fewer ways to circumvent it.

    Underdark is as boring and one-dimensional as the DM running it.
    You could easily homebrew something to make it more interesting. But that can be said about anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrowing1432 View Post
    It really is.


    I mean it all comes down to your DMing ability. Descriptive language can make even the most mundane forest trail/desert dune sound interesting.

    Sure the underdark is all caves and darkness, but with the right atmosphere it can prove to be a very cool adventure..............


    .....up until the drow death squad pumps you full of sleep poison, takes your stuff and carts you back to Menzoberanzan to be sacrificed to Loth.
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    Infighting among the Drow means there is plenty of opportunity for plot hooks among the players.

    Sure, it will have nasty backstabby undertones, but meeting a merchant caravan who agrees to trade with you if only you'll knock off their competition. Other drow caravans, monsters infesting the shorter trade route, etc. All the standard stuff you do above-ground, just you have to worry that when you go back to get paid, you'd better be healed up, or your employer will just finish you off.

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    Im wondering if i should take this over to homebrew and collaborating to make a pathfinder underdark and web pits and whats a whos its it be a pretty fun project
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    Quote Originally Posted by arixe View Post
    Im wondering if i should take this over to homebrew and collaborating to make a pathfinder underdark and web pits and whats a whos its it be a pretty fun project
    Look into Plot and Poison: A Guidebook to Drow. It'd help you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Look into Plot and Poison: A Guidebook to Drow. It'd help you.
    Ill look into it. Thanks for the help im suprised it turned into a look about drow ethics
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyrPsychologist View Post
    No.

    The Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things. You can't outwit and charm a drow slaving party. They aren't interested in your non-drow explanations. You are their source of money and power and they just want you. You can't reason with a mindflayer because it's goal is literally to consume your brain. etc for like almost everything in the Underdark.

    It's a place that rewards stealth. You hide, you watch, you learn. Come unprepared to a fight and you WILL die. Get ambushed and you WILL die. It's a very cuthroat place where the only assumption you can safely make is that you are not safe. nothing will help you.

    This is why it's bland. It's not that it's underground that makes it bland. It's that encountering NPCs will always roughly go the same. Watch them, figure out what they are, kill them. Repeat. Players don't really need to concern themselves with other avenues of approach because they're just encountering something that is automatically hostile and evil.
    Now this is the attitude I'm talking about here. Because MP thinks "the Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things", as a player he'd never try talking and he'd discourage other players from trying. As a DM he'd be very skeptical of roleplaying attempts by the PCs. But the Underdark is a richer setting if you don't decide ahead of time to impoverish it and make it one-dimensional.

    • You don't only roleplay with friendly NPCs, and just because you'll probably eventually come to blows with an opponent doesn't prevent temporary alliances of convenience. In fact, creating such temporary alliances is hard work appropriate for diplomatic heroes, and is the kind of thing that earns xp rewards and creates great adventures you'll talk about with your friends for years afterwards.
    • Illusion and shape-changing magic is a thing, and players can pose as members of Underdark races to get better reception. This is a classic trope that is well-represented in published modules and D&D-based computer games.
    • The Underdark includes creatures that are more receptive to talking to surface-worlders, such as stone giants, dragons, deep gnomes, gloura, deep imaskari, gloamings, myconids, and slyths, just to name the obvious choices from the books I have open in front of me.

    The developers endorsed and supported this kind of approach in their published Underdark modules. Again, I have an Underdark module open in front of me right now. It includes several drow NPCs who don't want to fight and will seek to initiate dialogue with the PCs. It includes several "opponents" who start with an attitude of Indifferent -- and there are printed Diplomacy DCs right there in the module for convincing them to become helpful and assist the party. There must be a dozen named NPCs you can talk with here, and that's even before the players start creating opportunities for themselves with clever use of their abilities.

    And since when is it bad to reward stealth, or reward being prepared for a fight? Since when is it bad to adventure in a dangerous place?
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    Well what im seeing mostly in this post is that a lot of people think underdark is dull cuz they them selves rob themselves of interesting oppertunitirs and the same can be said of the setting caves are as beoring as the people observing them there are caves made of marble the change color through out the day based on how the light hit near by water sources. You could go through a portion of valcanic activity. Its like saying the plane of earth would be a solid plane of granite when theres so much more interesting rocks and dirt and such to choose from
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Now this is the attitude I'm talking about here. Because MP thinks "the Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things", as a player he'd never try talking and he'd discourage other players from trying. As a DM he'd be very skeptical of roleplaying attempts by the PCs. But the Underdark is a richer setting if you don't decide ahead of time to impoverish it and make it one-dimensional.

    • You don't only roleplay with friendly NPCs, and just because you'll probably eventually come to blows with an opponent doesn't prevent temporary alliances of convenience. In fact, creating such temporary alliances is hard work appropriate for diplomatic heroes, and is the kind of thing that earns xp rewards and creates great adventures you'll talk about with your friends for years afterwards.
    • Illusion and shape-changing magic is a thing, and players can pose as members of Underdark races to get better reception. This is a classic trope that is well-represented in published modules and D&D-based computer games.
    • The Underdark includes creatures that are more receptive to talking to surface-worlders, such as stone giants, dragons, deep gnomes, gloura, deep imaskari, gloamings, myconids, and slyths, just to name the obvious choices from the books I have open in front of me.

    The developers endorsed and supported this kind of approach in their published Underdark modules. Again, I have an Underdark module open in front of me right now. It includes several drow NPCs who don't want to fight and will seek to initiate dialogue with the PCs. It includes several "opponents" who start with an attitude of Indifferent -- and there are printed Diplomacy DCs right there in the module for convincing them to become helpful and assist the party. There must be a dozen named NPCs you can talk with here, and that's even before the players start creating opportunities for themselves with clever use of their abilities.

    And since when is it bad to reward stealth, or reward being prepared for a fight? Since when is it bad to adventure in a dangerous place?
    The way I see it is that all that and more can be done on the surface, simply due to a larger variety. With the exception of a few niche interests, there's nothing the underdark does that cant be done in a more interesting setting. Admittedly that's my subjective opinion on the matter, but that's the way I see it.
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    Personally, I was turned off from Underdark by that series. You know. The one that caused the Linear Order's caster to get hauled away by lawyers for copyright infringement? The one that makes it seem like all drow on the surface carry twin scimitars and are emo rangers? Yea. The series that launched a thousand fanboys. There was only one series which was more poorly written (in my own personal opinion), and the less said about that self-insert gary stu of a wizard, the better.

    There's no reason to go down to the Underdark, much less the Lowerdark. There is absolutely nothing worth your time and effort to go down there for. If you can survive the Underdark, then you can go make a living killing Dragons for their hoards and live the easy life after making the world a better place by decimating the chromatic dragon population. Or you can go plane-hopping and ruin economies by trading iron for gold in Krynn and coming back with an archmage's ransom. Or you can just knock off the odd tyrant or two and peacefully rule your new kingdom more fairly than the previous ruler did.

    The animals are lethal. The FUNGUS is lethal. Sometimes, even the WATER is lethal. The inhabitants are either psychopaths, bent on possessing your soul, or all of the above. Well, some of them merely wish to be left alone and will enforce this wish with lethal force the moment you get too close, whether or not you actually knew you got too close. And they're the nice ones.

    And if you are unfortunate enough to find your way into the Lowerdark, start rolling your new character now unless you are CharOp level optimized.

    It isn't worth it. I don't care what that sleezy merchant is offering for parts found in the Underdark, it isn't worth it. Odds are, he's probably working for one faction or another wanting fresh suckers and you're walking into a trap. On the outside chance that the offer is legit, whatever he is sending you after is going to be valuable, which means it is either being farmed by one of the Underdark's denizens, who will object to you trying to take it, or it is so dangerous that not even the denizens of the Underdark want anything to do with it. Which means it will likely be able to eat your face, or it is exceedingly rare.
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    See all of this is why I really enjoy the fluff for the DragonMech setting. The surface world is decimated and everyone had to retreat underground. And somewhere down there deep is super ancient magitech maybe probably for sure perhaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    See all of this is why I really enjoy the fluff for the DragonMech setting. The surface world is decimated and everyone had to retreat underground. And somewhere down there deep is super ancient magitech maybe probably for sure perhaps.
    You talking arcanapunk?
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    Quote Originally Posted by arixe View Post
    You talking arcanapunk?
    I'm talking giant walking magical city mechs. Undead mechs. Elven tree mechs. Awakened animated golem-like mechs. Chainsaw daggers. Steam powered undead, cyborgs, and artificer-wizards.
    Lunar rain. Lunar abominations and lunar dragons descending from a falling, crumbling moon to ravage the surface.

    Sadly I'm also taking a combat system that turns the mech fights into 'ungainly slap fights' and rulebooks that are so disjointed which have such scattered information so as to be nearly useless.
    Rich fluff but crummy crunch.

    Admittedly the Underdark is more a footnote in the setting's history than anything central. But the potential is there. That is reputedly where the first ancient dwarven mech tech was rediscovered.

    Edit: Oh yeah, and no Industrial Era. This stuff is all hand crafted goodness. And the construction times/prices try to reflect that.
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    That sounds epic and silly all at the same time. Im gonna say not my cup of tea i do enjoy arcana punk every once and a while
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Personally, I was turned off from Underdark by that series. You know. The one that caused the Linear Order's caster to get hauled away by lawyers for copyright infringement? The one that makes it seem like all drow on the surface carry twin scimitars and are emo rangers? Yea. The series that launched a thousand fanboys. There was only one series which was more poorly written (in my own personal opinion), and the less said about that self-insert gary stu of a wizard, the better.

    There's no reason to go down to the Underdark, much less the Lowerdark. There is absolutely nothing worth your time and effort to go down there for. If you can survive the Underdark, then you can go make a living killing Dragons for their hoards and live the easy life after making the world a better place by decimating the chromatic dragon population. Or you can go plane-hopping and ruin economies by trading iron for gold in Krynn and coming back with an archmage's ransom. Or you can just knock off the odd tyrant or two and peacefully rule your new kingdom more fairly than the previous ruler did.

    The animals are lethal. The FUNGUS is lethal. Sometimes, even the WATER is lethal. The inhabitants are either psychopaths, bent on possessing your soul, or all of the above. Well, some of them merely wish to be left alone and will enforce this wish with lethal force the moment you get too close, whether or not you actually knew you got too close. And they're the nice ones.

    And if you are unfortunate enough to find your way into the Lowerdark, start rolling your new character now unless you are CharOp level optimized.

    It isn't worth it. I don't care what that sleezy merchant is offering for parts found in the Underdark, it isn't worth it. Odds are, he's probably working for one faction or another wanting fresh suckers and you're walking into a trap. On the outside chance that the offer is legit, whatever he is sending you after is going to be valuable, which means it is either being farmed by one of the Underdark's denizens, who will object to you trying to take it, or it is so dangerous that not even the denizens of the Underdark want anything to do with it. Which means it will likely be able to eat your face, or it is exceedingly rare.
    You know what this makes me think of? World's Largest Dungeon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    It isn't worth it. I don't care what that sleezy merchant is offering for parts found in the Underdark, it isn't worth it. Odds are, he's probably working for one faction or another wanting fresh suckers and you're walking into a trap. On the outside chance that the offer is legit, whatever he is sending you after is going to be valuable, which means it is either being farmed by one of the Underdark's denizens, who will object to you trying to take it, or it is so dangerous that not even the denizens of the Underdark want anything to do with it. Which means it will likely be able to eat your face, or it is exceedingly rare.
    Huh, that sounds pretty much like the entire reason people want to play a game like D&D. Unless of course yer scared to adventure and you have more fun sitting in a tavern talking to the locals about turnips for 4 hours.

    Then again, I don't expect anything less from someone that is so elitist and obviously "cooler" than the rest of us that he'll write an entire paragraph to remind us how lame Drizzt and Elminster is. Cause that's an old....tired.....argument....and serves no purpose in this thread other than to stir "fanboys" up.
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    What?

    I'm not gonna lie, that seems like a really OTT response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oryan77 View Post
    Huh, that sounds pretty much like the entire reason people want to play a game like D&D. Unless of course yer scared to adventure and you have more fun sitting in a tavern talking to the locals about turnips for 4 hours.
    Not all people are masochistic and want their characters ground into the dirt, with no likable people around to roleplay in, like what typically happens in the underdark. There are plenty of more interesting places to adventure in, with less soulcrushing atmospheres, and just as great rewards. There is nothing the underdark offers that any other adventure locale doesnt, except the aforementioned lack of likable NPCs, soulcrushingly dank environment and a "shoot first, ask question maybe afterwards if anyone's left alive" mentality. And anyone who says that that's a player problem, I disagree. The underdark breeds that mentality after the first few encounters when they shot you on sight.

    That said, I have had entire sessions with my players where they were in a city and did nothing but interact with NPCs for the entire session. No xp gained, no loot found, pure and simple character building roleplay. So yes, maybe some people do actually enjoy sitting at the tavern talking to the locals about turnips.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post

    That said, I have had entire sessions with my players where they were in a city and did nothing but interact with NPCs for the entire session. No xp gained, no loot found, pure and simple character building roleplay. So yes, maybe some people do actually enjoy sitting at the tavern talking to the locals about turnips.
    I actually had my first session in quite a while that involved zero combat about a week ago. There was a fair bit of rolling, but nearly all of it was Knowledge and Gather Information with a spot of Appraise, Perform, Profession and I think one Bluff.

    And the interesting thing is, on its face I don't think there's any reason what they did couldn't have just as easily happened in a drow city, or a duergar city. The obstacle is that they'd never have approached things that way, because things in the Underdark have a justly-earned reputation. (Damnit, aforementioned fantasy series. Why couldn't you have had some nuance?)
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    Default Re: Underdark

    So overall underdark is a place of challenges and difficulty but also has a deceptively rich areas/enviorments. I see the main challange is correctly potraying is the evil races. Honestly i despise chaotic stupid which is apparently how most people see drow. Most evil would prefer to use rather then kill out right. Say a drow noble needs something done it would be so much easier to use the random adventures that her hunting party captured. I mean they use sleep poison. Why not use a paralitic works on almost everything shy of dragons and undead. Sleep only affects most things.
    GENERATION 19

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    Default Re: Underdark

    I don't know that I'd say it has deceptively rich areas and environments. Does that mean rich in narrative potential? Or does it mean rich in... resources? Stuff your players want to take? Either way, I'd say the surface is just as bueno unless they want to open some sort of gem mine.

    Random challenge to folks: What's an experience that a party can only have in the Underdark, and why is that experience essential to the D and D experience?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    That said, I have had entire sessions with my players where they were in a city and did nothing but interact with NPCs for the entire session. No xp gained, no loot found, pure and simple character building roleplay. So yes, maybe some people do actually enjoy sitting at the tavern talking to the locals about turnips.
    I have also DMed many sessions that were nothing but roleplaying scenarios. The thing is, it was moving the story along. Talking about turnips is not moving the story along unless it is actually part of the plot. If you still don't have a problem with the group spending an entire session talking about turnips, which has nothing to do with any plotline, and you guys enjoy it, that's great.

    I just don't think it makes much sense to claim that turnip-talk is an acceptable way to spend a gaming session, but adventuring in the Underdark is a waste of a groups time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oryan77 View Post
    I have also DMed many sessions that were nothing but roleplaying scenarios. The thing is, it was moving the story along. Talking about turnips is not moving the story along unless it is actually part of the plot. If you still don't have a problem with the group spending an entire session talking about turnips, which has nothing to do with any plotline, and you guys enjoy it, that's great.

    I just don't think it makes much sense to claim that turnip-talk is an acceptable way to spend a gaming session, but adventuring in the Underdark is a waste of a groups time.
    My games frequently involve no "plots" other than the ones the players make for themsleves, they do what tickles their fancy. That said, if everything MUST be plot related, then your characters will always know that when a character approaches them, it must have some plot significance. Letting players do non-plot-related things lets them develop their character outside of the context of whatever plot you may have thrown at them, and in my opinion, is necessary for building well rounded, non-2D characters.

    Also, I never said that adventuring in the underdark is a waste of a group's time, that's a strawman argument. I said that the underdark has nothing to offer beyond a few very niche playstyles that an above ground adventure couldn't achieve, but an above ground adventure gives you many more opportunities for other forms of gameplay due to the lack of the whole "everything wants to **** you" environment that the underdark has. That has always been my argument, in essence: anything you can do, I can do better.

    My recommendation to the OP was always "don't force it on players", because honestly, everyone I know, with a few rare exceptions, absolutely hates the underdark, and would hate to be FORCED to go down there. A DM tried it once, and it made the game fall apart, because everyone just didn't care after the 2nd time we were beaten into the ground before DM fiat, or the enemies turning into fat mall cops all of a sudden saved us. The underdark is just so full of "**** you" that unless the players are super high op, or the DM plays the enemies as idiots, the players will always get ****ed horribly sooner rather than later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    Random challenge to folks: What's an experience that a party can only have in the Underdark, and why is that experience essential to the D and D experience?
    If I'm not mistaken the under dark is the only way to the Web Pitts. Which is connected to the abyss right so if you do the math hammer the average cr of an Underdark encounter is significantly less then the average of the abyss so technically it's a short cut. So I imagine players could be working with a pally order to set up a forward operating base to assult a demon lord
    GENERATION 19

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    Default Re: Underdark

    Quote Originally Posted by arixe View Post
    If I'm not mistaken the under dark is the only way to the Web Pitts. Which is connected to the abyss right so if you do the math hammer the average cr of an Underdark encounter is significantly less then the average of the abyss so technically it's a short cut. So I imagine players could be working with a pally order to set up a forward operating base to assult a demon lord
    The demonweb pits are plane on the abyss just like any other, you can get there via a variety of planar travel spells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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