Results 31 to 60 of 75
Thread: Underdark
-
2015-07-03, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Underdark
Except the thing is that, over a sufficiently long time, yes, the Drow should be expected to attempt to kill or enslave all non-Drow. Maybe not right now, and maybe not even over the course of the campaign. But the culture of the race as written is that betrayal is inevitable.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
-
2015-07-03, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: Underdark
This is might be true but theirs still oppertunity there if you can actually get a player to conect to a drow form a bond it makes that betrayal actually meaningful. It is s mostly the players fault if they just go around and kill anything that isnt a good race not all evil races are blood thirsty mindless killers. You can out wit them and use them and even redeem them you have a voice and roplay can be a decent weapon in it self.
GENERATION 19
-
2015-07-03, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Underdark
That is true of a significant number of surface races as well, to a point. While few are so self-destructively betrayal happy as the Drow, the idea that you could not maintain a long and mutually beneficial trade relationship with, say, Bregan D'aerth, is pretty silly. Any drow that is open to negotiation is not going to betray you until and unless they get something more out of it than just letting you give them stuff.
The priestesses of Lolth are probably going to give you a hard time just for existing, but even they aren't quite so foolish as to indiscriminately eliminate any non-drow they come across out of reflex.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2015-07-03, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Underdark
It's true that there are definitely surface races with whom no longest-term coexistence is possible. But the surface world is so much more varied that you can always just go elsewhere. The Underdark is a much more claustrophobic environment.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
-
2015-07-03, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
- Gender
Re: Underdark
Bolded part. You know who else attacks the PC's on sight? An Orc Slaving Party. Or a Hobgoblin Slaving Party. Or a Hill Giant Slaving Party. Slaving parties are not the only thing Drow do. You will find Drow merchant caravan's, servants, slaves themselves. If the race is of the Humanoid type, you will not find a culture of complete uniformity.
Except Orcs, Hobgoblins and Hill Giants are all kill on sight as much as drow are.
Drow merchants are unlikely to sell to non drow and are in fact more likely to kill you, take your stuff and sell it.
Servants and Slaves on the other hand would provide some interesting talking points,
And even talking about Abberations like Mind Flayers, your being incredibly narrowminded in how games are run to think Mind Flayers will never consider talking to the PCs. Sure, its not exactly unlikely. But they are sentient creatures, they can make choices beyond their Alignment entry. A lone Mind Flayer, thrown from its convent, could seek help of the PCs to reduce its former convent for tossing it out. Or a convent at war with Drow and losing, taking any help it can get.
True enough, though its far more likely to try and eat your brain/ enslave you then anything else. Why ask for help when it can just enslave you and use you that way?
-
2015-07-03, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: Underdark
Encountering Drow in the underdark is not likely to result in a helpful Drow encounter. The vast majority of the time they aren't going to work with non-Drow. Merchant caravans won't sell to you and will probably just attack you. Slaves MIGHT help but that's a might. They're powerful but incredibly uniform. They're incredibly evil and MALICIOUS. You might have your stray offshoot but that's not really something that a party would expect before making contact (or if they do, it will likely kill them). It's unfair to even compare the Drow to other races on the surface because of how prolific the Drow are compared to other races. So while you can feasibly parlay with some of the more hostile surface races it's incredibly unlikely that a party will be able to do the same with the Drow. Unless they themselves are Drow, work for the Drow, or are the agents of some more powerful being which the Drow respect.
And even talking about Abberations like Mind Flayers, your being incredibly narrowminded in how games are run to think Mind Flayers will never consider talking to the PCs. Sure, its not exactly unlikely. But they are sentient creatures, they can make choices beyond their Alignment entry. A lone Mind Flayer, thrown from its convent, could seek help of the PCs to reduce its former convent for tossing it out. Or a convent at war with Drow and losing, taking any help it can get.
And really. We're just at the point I said. that the vast majority of the Underdark is hostile and will attack. Even if you align yourself with some aspect of the Underdark (which is already a morally questionable thing to do) you're now at odds against everything else. So it's going to have a huge emphasis on combat and fewer ways to circumvent it.
Underdark is as boring and one-dimensional as the DM running it.
-
2015-07-04, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
- Location
- Sovereign State of Denial
Re: Underdark
-
2015-07-04, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
Re: Underdark
Infighting among the Drow means there is plenty of opportunity for plot hooks among the players.
Sure, it will have nasty backstabby undertones, but meeting a merchant caravan who agrees to trade with you if only you'll knock off their competition. Other drow caravans, monsters infesting the shorter trade route, etc. All the standard stuff you do above-ground, just you have to worry that when you go back to get paid, you'd better be healed up, or your employer will just finish you off.
-
2015-07-04, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: Underdark
Im wondering if i should take this over to homebrew and collaborating to make a pathfinder underdark and web pits and whats a whos its it be a pretty fun project
GENERATION 19
-
2015-07-04, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
- Location
- Sovereign State of Denial
Re: Underdark
-
2015-07-04, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
-
2015-07-04, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: Underdark
Now this is the attitude I'm talking about here. Because MP thinks "the Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things", as a player he'd never try talking and he'd discourage other players from trying. As a DM he'd be very skeptical of roleplaying attempts by the PCs. But the Underdark is a richer setting if you don't decide ahead of time to impoverish it and make it one-dimensional.
- You don't only roleplay with friendly NPCs, and just because you'll probably eventually come to blows with an opponent doesn't prevent temporary alliances of convenience. In fact, creating such temporary alliances is hard work appropriate for diplomatic heroes, and is the kind of thing that earns xp rewards and creates great adventures you'll talk about with your friends for years afterwards.
- Illusion and shape-changing magic is a thing, and players can pose as members of Underdark races to get better reception. This is a classic trope that is well-represented in published modules and D&D-based computer games.
- The Underdark includes creatures that are more receptive to talking to surface-worlders, such as stone giants, dragons, deep gnomes, gloura, deep imaskari, gloamings, myconids, and slyths, just to name the obvious choices from the books I have open in front of me.
The developers endorsed and supported this kind of approach in their published Underdark modules. Again, I have an Underdark module open in front of me right now. It includes several drow NPCs who don't want to fight and will seek to initiate dialogue with the PCs. It includes several "opponents" who start with an attitude of Indifferent -- and there are printed Diplomacy DCs right there in the module for convincing them to become helpful and assist the party. There must be a dozen named NPCs you can talk with here, and that's even before the players start creating opportunities for themselves with clever use of their abilities.
And since when is it bad to reward stealth, or reward being prepared for a fight? Since when is it bad to adventure in a dangerous place?Last edited by jiriku; 2015-07-04 at 12:16 PM.
Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding
D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.
-
2015-07-04, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: Underdark
Well what im seeing mostly in this post is that a lot of people think underdark is dull cuz they them selves rob themselves of interesting oppertunitirs and the same can be said of the setting caves are as beoring as the people observing them there are caves made of marble the change color through out the day based on how the light hit near by water sources. You could go through a portion of valcanic activity. Its like saying the plane of earth would be a solid plane of granite when theres so much more interesting rocks and dirt and such to choose from
GENERATION 19
-
2015-07-04, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Underdark
The way I see it is that all that and more can be done on the surface, simply due to a larger variety. With the exception of a few niche interests, there's nothing the underdark does that cant be done in a more interesting setting. Admittedly that's my subjective opinion on the matter, but that's the way I see it.
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
The new Quick Vestige List
-
2015-07-04, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Underdark
Personally, I was turned off from Underdark by that series. You know. The one that caused the Linear Order's caster to get hauled away by lawyers for copyright infringement? The one that makes it seem like all drow on the surface carry twin scimitars and are emo rangers? Yea. The series that launched a thousand fanboys. There was only one series which was more poorly written (in my own personal opinion), and the less said about that self-insert gary stu of a wizard, the better.
There's no reason to go down to the Underdark, much less the Lowerdark. There is absolutely nothing worth your time and effort to go down there for. If you can survive the Underdark, then you can go make a living killing Dragons for their hoards and live the easy life after making the world a better place by decimating the chromatic dragon population. Or you can go plane-hopping and ruin economies by trading iron for gold in Krynn and coming back with an archmage's ransom. Or you can just knock off the odd tyrant or two and peacefully rule your new kingdom more fairly than the previous ruler did.
The animals are lethal. The FUNGUS is lethal. Sometimes, even the WATER is lethal. The inhabitants are either psychopaths, bent on possessing your soul, or all of the above. Well, some of them merely wish to be left alone and will enforce this wish with lethal force the moment you get too close, whether or not you actually knew you got too close. And they're the nice ones.
And if you are unfortunate enough to find your way into the Lowerdark, start rolling your new character now unless you are CharOp level optimized.
It isn't worth it. I don't care what that sleezy merchant is offering for parts found in the Underdark, it isn't worth it. Odds are, he's probably working for one faction or another wanting fresh suckers and you're walking into a trap. On the outside chance that the offer is legit, whatever he is sending you after is going to be valuable, which means it is either being farmed by one of the Underdark's denizens, who will object to you trying to take it, or it is so dangerous that not even the denizens of the Underdark want anything to do with it. Which means it will likely be able to eat your face, or it is exceedingly rare.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
-
2015-07-05, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
- Location
- Middle of nowhere USA.
- Gender
Re: Underdark
See all of this is why I really enjoy the fluff for the DragonMech setting. The surface world is decimated and everyone had to retreat underground. And somewhere down there deep is super ancient magitech maybe probably for sure perhaps.
-
2015-07-05, 01:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
-
2015-07-05, 01:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
- Location
- Middle of nowhere USA.
- Gender
Re: Underdark
I'm talking giant walking magical city mechs. Undead mechs. Elven tree mechs. Awakened animated golem-like mechs. Chainsaw daggers. Steam powered undead, cyborgs, and artificer-wizards.
Lunar rain. Lunar abominations and lunar dragons descending from a falling, crumbling moon to ravage the surface.
Sadly I'm also taking a combat system that turns the mech fights into 'ungainly slap fights' and rulebooks that are so disjointed which have such scattered information so as to be nearly useless.
Rich fluff but crummy crunch.
Admittedly the Underdark is more a footnote in the setting's history than anything central. But the potential is there. That is reputedly where the first ancient dwarven mech tech was rediscovered.
Edit: Oh yeah, and no Industrial Era. This stuff is all hand crafted goodness. And the construction times/prices try to reflect that.Last edited by unseenmage; 2015-07-05 at 01:55 AM.
-
2015-07-05, 01:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: Underdark
That sounds epic and silly all at the same time. Im gonna say not my cup of tea i do enjoy arcana punk every once and a while
GENERATION 19
-
2015-07-05, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Underdark
You know what this makes me think of? World's Largest Dungeon.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
-
2015-07-05, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
Re: Underdark
Huh, that sounds pretty much like the entire reason people want to play a game like D&D. Unless of course yer scared to adventure and you have more fun sitting in a tavern talking to the locals about turnips for 4 hours.
Then again, I don't expect anything less from someone that is so elitist and obviously "cooler" than the rest of us that he'll write an entire paragraph to remind us how lame Drizzt and Elminster is. Cause that's an old....tired.....argument....and serves no purpose in this thread other than to stir "fanboys" up.Visit my Downloads section for my D&D 3.5 resources (DM screen, PC & NPC sheets, Reference sheets, etc, etc)
I will buy your unwanted D&D minis collection (DDM & PF Battles only). Email me your asking price!
-
2015-07-05, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Underdark
What?
I'm not gonna lie, that seems like a really OTT response.In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
-
2015-07-05, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Underdark
Not all people are masochistic and want their characters ground into the dirt, with no likable people around to roleplay in, like what typically happens in the underdark. There are plenty of more interesting places to adventure in, with less soulcrushing atmospheres, and just as great rewards. There is nothing the underdark offers that any other adventure locale doesnt, except the aforementioned lack of likable NPCs, soulcrushingly dank environment and a "shoot first, ask question maybe afterwards if anyone's left alive" mentality. And anyone who says that that's a player problem, I disagree. The underdark breeds that mentality after the first few encounters when they shot you on sight.
That said, I have had entire sessions with my players where they were in a city and did nothing but interact with NPCs for the entire session. No xp gained, no loot found, pure and simple character building roleplay. So yes, maybe some people do actually enjoy sitting at the tavern talking to the locals about turnips.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
The new Quick Vestige List
-
2015-07-05, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Underdark
I actually had my first session in quite a while that involved zero combat about a week ago. There was a fair bit of rolling, but nearly all of it was Knowledge and Gather Information with a spot of Appraise, Perform, Profession and I think one Bluff.
And the interesting thing is, on its face I don't think there's any reason what they did couldn't have just as easily happened in a drow city, or a duergar city. The obstacle is that they'd never have approached things that way, because things in the Underdark have a justly-earned reputation. (Damnit, aforementioned fantasy series. Why couldn't you have had some nuance?)In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
-
2015-07-05, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: Underdark
So overall underdark is a place of challenges and difficulty but also has a deceptively rich areas/enviorments. I see the main challange is correctly potraying is the evil races. Honestly i despise chaotic stupid which is apparently how most people see drow. Most evil would prefer to use rather then kill out right. Say a drow noble needs something done it would be so much easier to use the random adventures that her hunting party captured. I mean they use sleep poison. Why not use a paralitic works on almost everything shy of dragons and undead. Sleep only affects most things.
GENERATION 19
-
2015-07-06, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Underdark
I don't know that I'd say it has deceptively rich areas and environments. Does that mean rich in narrative potential? Or does it mean rich in... resources? Stuff your players want to take? Either way, I'd say the surface is just as bueno unless they want to open some sort of gem mine.
Random challenge to folks: What's an experience that a party can only have in the Underdark, and why is that experience essential to the D and D experience?In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
-
2015-07-06, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
Re: Underdark
I have also DMed many sessions that were nothing but roleplaying scenarios. The thing is, it was moving the story along. Talking about turnips is not moving the story along unless it is actually part of the plot. If you still don't have a problem with the group spending an entire session talking about turnips, which has nothing to do with any plotline, and you guys enjoy it, that's great.
I just don't think it makes much sense to claim that turnip-talk is an acceptable way to spend a gaming session, but adventuring in the Underdark is a waste of a groups time.Last edited by Oryan77; 2015-07-06 at 12:53 AM.
Visit my Downloads section for my D&D 3.5 resources (DM screen, PC & NPC sheets, Reference sheets, etc, etc)
I will buy your unwanted D&D minis collection (DDM & PF Battles only). Email me your asking price!
-
2015-07-06, 01:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Underdark
My games frequently involve no "plots" other than the ones the players make for themsleves, they do what tickles their fancy. That said, if everything MUST be plot related, then your characters will always know that when a character approaches them, it must have some plot significance. Letting players do non-plot-related things lets them develop their character outside of the context of whatever plot you may have thrown at them, and in my opinion, is necessary for building well rounded, non-2D characters.
Also, I never said that adventuring in the underdark is a waste of a group's time, that's a strawman argument. I said that the underdark has nothing to offer beyond a few very niche playstyles that an above ground adventure couldn't achieve, but an above ground adventure gives you many more opportunities for other forms of gameplay due to the lack of the whole "everything wants to **** you" environment that the underdark has. That has always been my argument, in essence: anything you can do, I can do better.
My recommendation to the OP was always "don't force it on players", because honestly, everyone I know, with a few rare exceptions, absolutely hates the underdark, and would hate to be FORCED to go down there. A DM tried it once, and it made the game fall apart, because everyone just didn't care after the 2nd time we were beaten into the ground before DM fiat, or the enemies turning into fat mall cops all of a sudden saved us. The underdark is just so full of "**** you" that unless the players are super high op, or the DM plays the enemies as idiots, the players will always get ****ed horribly sooner rather than later.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
The new Quick Vestige List
-
2015-07-06, 04:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: Underdark
If I'm not mistaken the under dark is the only way to the Web Pitts. Which is connected to the abyss right so if you do the math hammer the average cr of an Underdark encounter is significantly less then the average of the abyss so technically it's a short cut. So I imagine players could be working with a pally order to set up a forward operating base to assult a demon lord
GENERATION 19
-
2015-07-06, 05:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Underdark
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
The new Quick Vestige List