Dragonball Super: So it begins - again

[Jayngfet]

You know, I caught something watching this episode.

If you listen to King Kai in the original japanese, he basically says "power up type transformation" when talking about Super Saiyans.

So are there like, other types of transformations? Could there be some kind of lateral move Goku could make similar to say, modern Kamen Rider with different speed or "trick" type Super Saiyan forms in the future?

[Rater202]

You know, I caught something watching this episode.

If you listen to King Kai in the original japanese, he basically says "power up type transformation" when talking about Super Saiyans.

So are there like, other types of transformations? Could there be some kind of lateral move Goku could make similar to say, modern Kamen Rider with different speed or "trick" type Super Saiyan forms in the future?

We already have an example of a "Power Down" type transformation.

Frieza(and Presumably Cold) were born with high PLs and used their race's shape shifting ability to suppress them.

[Flickerdart]

Couldn't false SS2 be considered not a power-up style transformation too, since it actually makes you worse at fighting by reducing your speed?

[Kato]

So... why is Beerus so obsessed with Freeza? On the DB power scale Freezy is a whimp. He might not know about Cell but what about Buu? Isn't that a way more impressive feat than beating the litle space dictator? Also, how can he claim SSJ Goku couldn't really keep up with Freeza. At this point probably normal Goku could do that...

[Rater202]

Couldn't false SS2 be considered not a power-up style transformation too, since it actually makes you worse at fighting by reducing your speed?

There is no "False SS2"

What you're thinking of is "Super Saiyan Grade 3", also known as "Super Super Saiyan" and "Ultra Saiyan" in fanspeak, which is a power up because it does increase both raw power and physical strength. It just has a draw back that makes it impracticable.

@Kato: There are a couple of Implications scattered here and there that Goku hasn't gotten much stronger than he was in the Frieza Saga, he's just gotten better at being a Super Saiyan and unlocked more powerful versions of being a super saiyan.

If those implications are true, the Goku's power is roughly comparable to what he was at when he fought Frieza.

In addition, when Goku was in the hyperbolic time chamber training to Fight Cell, instead of training to get stronger, Goku trained to master the super saiyan form. This form, "Full Power Super Saiyan" completely reduces the amount of wasted enrgy and gives perfect control of the power of the Super Saiyan form.

Meaning that Goku wouldn't be bleeding off power like crazy while transformed.

Since Power Levels are based on power radiated outwards(which is why suppressing your power level is a thing that can be done), then if Goku isn't bleeding off his Super Saiyan Power, then he won't feel any more powerful in base super saiyan than he does in his default form, despite being significantly more powerful.

[Spamotron]

After comparing the two the short beatdown in BoG works better to me than the extended thing we got this episode. Drawing out each of the movies cool moments into full episodes just doesn't work very well. Judging from the magazine scans of episode summaries Goku isn't going to undergo the ritual until episode 9. Then the fight itself probably will span 2 and half episodes with one being the god transformation half of the fight with its cliffhanger being it wearing off. Then the episode after that will be Goku with the absorbed power fighting Beerus with its cliffhanger being Beerus's planet buster. Then the resolution in episode twelve.

I know that 11-13 episodes per arc is standard with this kind of anime but I think the movie's pacing just had more punch.

The Revival of F arc will probably be similarly paced so we won't see anything really new until episodes 25-27ish.

I'm also getting the impression that's why this thread doesn't have much discussion. We won't have anything truly interesting to talk about for months.

[McNum]

So... why is Beerus so obsessed with Freeza? On the DB power scale Freezy is a whimp. He might not know about Cell but what about Buu? Isn't that a way more impressive feat than beating the litle space dictator? Also, how can he claim SSJ Goku couldn't really keep up with Freeza. At this point probably normal Goku could do that...

Beerus is still just waking up. When last he looked, Freeza was the big man in the galaxy and Buu was sealed. So, of course he's curious about the guy who beat Freeza. That Buu has also been released, well, he'll find out soon enough.

[HamHam]

I'm just kinda wondering what the heck happened with the animation this episode.

[Spamotron]

Take this with a grain of salt because its hearsay and not proper research but I hear that there's something of a crisis level shortfall of skilled animators in Japan. Wages haven't stayed competitive in the anime industry and up and coming animators are mostly going into other lines of work like video games. As a result Japan's best veteran animators are being constantly juggled between 4 or 5 series at a time. The show production schedules haven't adjusted to staff availability so animators have half the amount of work hours per episode than they did 20 years ago. Even for big flagship series like One Piece and Dragonball Super.

[Psyren]

Isn't a bunch of animation being outsourced to S. Korea, India and the Philippines anyway?

[Jayngfet]

Isn't a bunch of animation being outsourced to S. Korea, India and the Philippines anyway?

That's both being overstated and given something of a misconception.

A lot of work in japan is still "in house" and even if you ship off to elsewhere you need everything except that piece done. You may even need the keyframes done in japan before being shipped over. So long as everything is managed properly you won't have too many hiccups by outsourcing a few scenes. It's just when the main studio is incompetent that you get problems(See also: Korra season 2, which had the exact same problems every episode).

As for Japan and their problems, I can easily buy that. Being an animator isn't exactly an easy career path and the amount of training and experience needed to be a good one is quite frankly insane. The west has way more training places pumping out people to increasingly exacting standards and veterans are still juggling projects. One of the main things about being an animator is that you never really need to go looking for work, since after the first year or two and people know you can do the job, the studios can pretty much fight over you in desperation to get enough people to reach quota. The pay is also often way better elsewhere since you need so many skills that often transfer elsewhere with fewer problems that you can just leave the studio system if you feel like it and nobody can really stop you.

Especially with the industry being what it is globally. There's always more projects coming up and Japan has more than most other countries combined. I can easily see every other veteran being worth their weight in solid gold.

[Spamotron]

Huh, apparently this has caused enough of a dust-up that Forbes took notice. Albeit just one of their bloggers.

[Psyren]

Sailor Moon Crystal had the same issues - generally it gets cleaned up for the DVD/Blu Ray release.

While I'm not a fan, this likely going to be an ongoing trend with anime (especially for an established series with an existing fanbase), particularly since it gives added incentive to pick up the higher-profit home video releases.

Better still, all the pirated streaming versions on bootleg sites will be showing the lower-quality one since that came out first - even more reason to get the DVD, or pay for that licensed Crunchyroll sub.

[GloatingSwine]

I'm just kinda wondering what the heck happened with the animation this episode.

Made on a budget of approximately bugger all by people who get paid by the frame so they need to crank them out as fast as possible for as long as possible.

[Spamotron]

What do ya know? They actually came up with entirely new gags instead of rehashing the movie. This episode actually warrants proper spoilers.

Spoiler

Show

They knew repeating the bingo song would never have the same magic as the movie. So they didn't try. Iron Chef Vegeta was a worthy substitute.

[Mato]

Yeah all three of them (BoG,DB:S anime and DB:S manga) have some minor differences.

Also the 3rd issue was released and covers the episode their releasing this weekend.

[Anteros]

So yeah...that scene was about infinity billion times better in the movie. This episode was the first one that I've felt was really, really bad.

[Mato]

So DBS's 12th episode puts Goku at the universal scale and the 13th puts his SSj1 form up there as well.

So did the thread die?
And if so, why do you think that is?

[Anteros]

Probably because the show honestly isn't very good, and is just rehashing the movie plot in super slow motion. There's not much to talk about until they actually progress the plot in some meaningful way.

The most interesting things in 13 episodes have been Vegeta's sushi chef routine and the fact that we're apparently going back to gold transformations instead of pink ones.

[Kato]

Yeah... I mean, the show is okay, but while by DBZ standards the fight didn't take long... well, it took a while. And the others being shoves aside because "they are too exhausted to fly" is pretty... eh. I like Satan being himself well enough but it's not really worthwhile posting, I'm afraid. Maybe once we get new material.

[JadedDM]

I haven't seen the movies, but if they are the same as the show but without all of the filler and bad pacing, maybe I'll drop the show and just watch the films instead.

Really, after 20 something years, the writers of Dragonball Z have learned nothing. DBS has all of the same problems that DBZ did: terrible pacing, where entire episodes could be summed up with a sentence or two, if that, people just standing around yelling or powering up...even the fights aren't interesting.

Every episode is just Beerus and Goku fighting a little, commenting on how strong each other is, then some cutaways to the other Z fighters who are just sitting and watching, helpless. Then some more half-ass fighting, and then the episode ends with Beerus saying, "Okay, but I was only farting around before. Now I'm going to use my FULL power!" Every now and again they have a fake-out of the world ending, but then it just...doesn't. Because.

I don't know. Maybe it's me. Maybe my tastes have changed since I watched DBZ as a kid, but this is just a slog now.

[Spamotron]

Yeah, the pacing is just not good for weekly episodes. I'm waiting for the Beerus arc to finish then I'll try watching it all in one marathon. See if it works better that way.

[Anteros]

I haven't seen the movies, but if they are the same as the show but without all of the filler and bad pacing, maybe I'll drop the show and just watch the films instead.

Really, after 20 something years, the writers of Dragonball Z have learned nothing. DBS has all of the same problems that DBZ did: terrible pacing, where entire episodes could be summed up with a sentence or two, if that, people just standing around yelling or powering up...even the fights aren't interesting.

Every episode is just Beerus and Goku fighting a little, commenting on how strong each other is, then some cutaways to the other Z fighters who are just sitting and watching, helpless. Then some more half-ass fighting, and then the episode ends with Beerus saying, "Okay, but I was only farting around before. Now I'm going to use my FULL power!" Every now and again they have a fake-out of the world ending, but then it just...doesn't. Because.

I don't know. Maybe it's me. Maybe my tastes have changed since I watched DBZ as a kid, but this is just a slog now.

The first movie is much better than the current anime. The second one isn't really that good, but there's much more potential in its plot line for the anime to improve.

I'd honestly recommend watching the first movie, and ignoring the second one in favor of picking the anime back up when it gets to that point.

[Rater202]

The first movie is much better than the current anime. The second one isn't really that good, but there's much more potential in its plot line for the anime to improve.

I'm hoping they handle Jacco better, myself.

It might be just me, but when I watched Resurrection F I just got the feeling that anybody who didn't read Galactic Patrolman Jacco will have no idea who the hell this guy is, and he doesn't really interact very much with the dragon ball characters...

He just had no reason to be there after explaining that Frieza was back.

[Anteros]

I'm hoping they just scrap him. He's a completely unoriginal comic relief character and he clashes horribly with the rest of the setting.

[Rater202]

I'm hoping they just scrap him. He's a completely unoriginal comic relief character and he clashes horribly with the rest of the setting.

Considering that he's in the opening, they're not going to scrap him.

Also, Toriyama has admitted that Jacco is one of his favorite characters he's designed so...

Besides, he's got fans and people that liked his story.

I'm holding out for some kind of interaction between Jacco and Saiyaman.

(And he doen'st class with the setting in ability anymore than the Frieza Grunts, in concept anymore than any of the other characters from space, and in temperament anymore than the Ginyu force did.)

[The Troubadour]

I liked some of the filler quite a bit. For one thing, it was nice seeing Vegeta actually acting like a father. I agree that the action scenes could have been streamlined a bit more, though.

So are there like, other types of transformations?

Sure. Zarbon had an actual power-up transformation (as opposed to Frieza's power-releasing transformations), for example, and - unless you count those as special techniques, not actual transformations - Tenshinhan could grow extra arms and Piccolo could grow to a giant size.

[Anteros]

Considering that he's in the opening, they're not going to scrap him.

Also, Toriyama has admitted that Jacco is one of his favorite characters he's designed so...

Besides, he's got fans and people that liked his story.

I'm holding out for some kind of interaction between Jacco and Saiyaman.

(And he doen'st class with the setting in ability anymore than the Frieza Grunts, in concept anymore than any of the other characters from space, and in temperament anymore than the Ginyu force did.)

I think the difference for me is that with the others were treated like a comic relief aspect of the character rather than their entire personality. It also doesn't help that his design is INCREDIBLY generic and he is meaningless to the plot yet he's getting more screen time than actual characters like Gohan or Piccolo.

[Mato]

Probably because the show honestly isn't very good, and is just rehashing the movie plot in super slow motion.

How about a minor dissection.

Aside from it's terrible animation problems or you having seen BoG, can it stand on it's own?
(also gold transformations, did you watch the video I got my avatar from?)

I don't know. Maybe it's me. Maybe my tastes have changed since I watched DBZ as a kid, but this is just a slog now.

Try watching a few episodes of Kai, not fight clips on Youtube but the actual full episodes, and see if it's your tastes. Then let me know, in a post full of open ended questions to promote discussion, I'm actually pretty curious on this one.

Yeah, the pacing is just not good for weekly episodes. I'm waiting for the Beerus arc to finish then I'll try watching it all in one marathon. See if it works better that way.

People tend to notice more quarks in media on the second viewing, so probably not.

Sure. Zarbon had an actual power-up transformation (as opposed to Frieza's power-releasing transformations), for example, and - unless you count those as special techniques, not actual transformations - Tenshinhan could grow extra arms and Piccolo could grow to a giant size.

Golden Frieza is a power up form too.

There is also Cell's tranformations towards what he considered perfection. And Buu's magical absorptions which didn't think only two cyborgs were the limit. Roshi's bulky form fits too and several bad guys do the same, like Garlic and Zarbon. Princess Snake could turn into a snake, or maybe she is a snake that can turn into a near-human, but that might fall into general shape shifting instead of powering up. Like Oolong and Puar, both attended shapeshifting school, or Yao & Tenshinhan which are possible natural adepts.

IIt also doesn't help that his design is INCREDIBLY generic and he is meaningless to the plot yet he's getting more screen time than actual characters like Gohan or Piccolo.

I seriously wish the anime extension of Res F has "mystic" Gohan fight Frieza, pretty much anything other than Gohan losing his SSj forms and being one shotted in the chest. Gohan went from being meant to be the hero to the worf effect to totally useless. Toriyama is treating his own characters like pink poo, which seems to be a running theme.

[Anteros]

How about a minor dissection.

Aside from it's terrible animation problems or you having seen BoG, can it stand on it's own?
(also gold transformations, did you watch the video I got my avatar from?)

Just basically what everyone has said. The pacing hasn't been good and it is mostly rehashing things from the movie.

That said, I was about to give up on the series, but this last episode was actually quite good. The preview for the next one looks interesting as well. Things may be on an upswing.