Dragonball Super: So it begins - again

[Rater202]

I don't know how many of you would be interested in knowing this, but Scott "Kaiserneko" Frerichs of TeamFourStar apparently did a minor character in the official English dub of Resurrection F.

[Illven]

I don't know how many of you would be interested in knowing this, but Scott "Kaiserneko" Frerichs of TeamFourStar apparently did a minor character in the official English dub of Resurrection F.

Nice. Good for him!

[Spamotron]

Spoiler: episode 3

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Well it appears to be as we expected. Straight from Eldest Kai's mouth: Beerus has not methodology or greater purpose to choosing the planets he destroys, its all pure whim. The whole "destroying the dinosaurs," thing isn't clarified anymore than the movie was but is brought up. Which as noted before makes no senses whatsoever. When Beerus is pissed he doesn't do systematic extermination, he blows up the planet. Second dinosaurs still exist on Dragonball Earth.

Just a reminder there's no new episode next week.

[Rater202]

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Would Elder Kai know the Methodology?

I mean, in RF, Whis said that Beerus sometimes destroys planets he's not supposed to, and Whis turns back time to fix it.

But, Cell being present in otherworld while Future Goku isn't means that Other World isn't outside of time.

So, Elder Kai wouldn't know if Beerus destroyed a planet he hadn't been meant to unless he was there with Whis when Whis turned back time.

And furthermore, the Kaioshin are gods of creation, not destruction, so Beerus's actions are outside his purview.

Spoiler: Actual Reaction as I watch

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Um, You know, when they brought back everyone that died because of Cell, shouldn't that have brought back King Kai and his friends?

Since it was his self destruct that killed them.

[Lateral]

Spoiler: episode 3

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WHY IS DENDE STILL SO SHORT. It's been YEARS.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: episode 3

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WHY IS DENDE STILL SO SHORT. It's been YEARS.

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IIRC, he was Short in the Buu Saga, despite maturing over the timeskip.

It's been six months since then.

[Spamotron]

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Its okay to admit you like a villain Rater I personally love Cell.

The bit with Beerus seeking an "ultimate adversary," amused me. Its going to be pretty entertaining when Beerus finds out that just because Son Goku is his prophesied greatest foe the reverse will not be true. We know Goku and Vegeta will have to get stronger than Beerus to face foes that come in later arcs. While he already appears to be comfortable with the idea of someone stronger than him (see Whis) the thought of some mortal no-names surpassing him in just a few years time is likely to rankle.

[Rater202]

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1: My problem with that is that Beerus isn't treated like a villain and doesn't act like one. In BoG, Beerus is rather polite and respectful at the party, just chilling and hanging up until he gets pissed off and starts throwing a tantrum. Unlike Frieza, Beerus' politeness seems genuine.

Furthermore, it's a forgone conclusion that he wins a fight and then doesn't destroy the earth.

Elder Kain claiming there's no purpose to Beerus's rampaging is at odds with multiple statements, including his own, that it's a necessary part of the balance. Furthermore, if which planets and the number of them were totally up to Beerus's will and whims, then there'd be no point to Whis being able to reverse time to undo the destruction of planets, which is something Whis himself states he's able to do and demonstrates later.

A statement is made in Rf that if Frieza hadn't destroyed the Saiyans, Beerus would of because they were evil(which is consistent with this episode having Beerus mention that the saiyans just tick him off)

and Finally, in Dragonball, the villains always lose. Afterward, they are either killed or stop being villains.

Beerus won his fight with Goku, and despite joining the extended circle of friends, Beerus was, um, still the God of Destruction after that fight.

2. The Transformation Goku and Vegeta use in RF, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, the "Bluper" Saiyan, to go with the crude fan name, is called by it's official name for a reason. It's a Super Saiyan transformation used by a saiyan who has absorbed the power and godly aura given by the Super Saiyan God Transformation and then mastered it.

Whis refers to this state as being a "Saiyan beyond God"

Meaning that by the time goku and Vegeta can rival Beerus' power, they either are gods or are effectively gods.

So a Mortal surpassing Beerus ins't gonna be an issue at least for them.

[Jayngfet]

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IIRC, he was Short in the Buu Saga, despite maturing over the timeskip.

It's been six months since then.

It only took Piccolo three years or so to become mostly mature physically.

Though it's always been a theory of mine that Guru purposefully built most of the Nameks as being smaller and weaker than he could have. They aren't warriors and given how long their history is it's implied a bunch of bad stuff happened between either then and now or in Guru's youth.

[Rater202]

Piccolo was also the son/reincarnation of Demon King Piccolo.

King Piccolo's other sons were all vaguely reptilian and/or demonic mutants.

None of Piccolo the firsts offspring are typical namekians.

Otherwise, Dende would have been an adult when he came back into the series to take over as the new Kami.(Over three years)

[Psyren]

@ Beerus discussion - note that "evil" and "villain" are not necessarily the same thing. Belkar is evil, but he is not a villain.

Beerus is an antagonist for the moment, but that doesn't actually make him a villain either.

And even if Beerus' destruction is essentially random, that doesn't mean it serves no purpose.

Um, You know, when they brought back everyone that died because of Cell, shouldn't that have brought back King Kai and his friends?

Since it was his self destruct that killed them.

Yes, that's a pretty big plot hole, especially since Goku actually said this happened in the manga:

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More evidence of Toriyama's forgetfulness unfortunately.

(Though KK did still have the halo when he said that so maybe that was the error?)

[Rater202]

Is that the official translation or a fanscan? Some of the fan translations are really crappy.

Did Kaio-Sama have the halo in the Buu Saga, in the manga?

[Jayngfet]

@ Beerus discussion - note that "evil" and "villain" are not necessarily the same thing. Belkar is evil, but he is not a villain.

Beerus is an antagonist for the moment, but that doesn't actually make him a villain either.

And even if Beerus' destruction is essentially random, that doesn't mean it serves no purpose.



Yes, that's a pretty big plot hole, especially since Goku actually said this happened in the manga:

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More evidence of Toriyama's forgetfulness unfortunately.

(Though KK did still have the halo when he said that so maybe that was the error?)

That, and the one who sealed Old Kai is explicitly said to be weaker than Buu. So to attribute that to Beerus and use it as evidence that he's some kind of superbeing is a bit contradictory.

[Rater202]

That would have been several million years ago, if I remember correctly.

Plenty of time for Beerus to train himself and become significantly more powerful than that before.

Edit: Anyone have any clue how strong Kibito was supposed to be? Do we have an official PL or some other measurement to go from?

[Psyren]

That, and the one who sealed Old Kai is explicitly said to be weaker than Buu. So to attribute that to Beerus and use it as evidence that he's some kind of superbeing is a bit contradictory.

I've heard that statement a couple of times in this thread and the source appears to be some random interview with Toriyama that nobody has linked. Even if it's verbatim though, it seems to me that he could have easily retconned that particular detail without changing anything else about the story. I'll wait until I see that statement in DBS itself before I consider it canon.

Is that the official translation or a fanscan? Some of the fan translations are really crappy.

It might be a translation error, but it seems an odd detail for someone to make up on their own. After all, it's just the kind of think Goku would bring up.

Besides which, it makes perfect sense - the wish was to bring back everyone Cell had killed, and Shenron certainly had never brought KK back before.

Did Kaio-Sama have the halo in the Buu Saga, in the manga?

Yes, he's had it ever since the Cellplosion. But Elder Kai is supposed to have one too, and he doesn't.

[Rater202]

I've heard that statement a couple of times in this thread and the source appears to be some random interview with Toriyama that nobody has linked. Even if it's verbatim though, it seems to me that he could have easily retconned that particular detail without changing anything else about the story. I'll wait until I see that statement in DBS itself before I consider it canon.

Spoiler: Epsidoe 3

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elder Kai says so himself this episode.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Epsidoe 3

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elder Kai says so himself this episode.

You misunderstand - I know he says Beerus sealed him. However, he says nothing about Buu being stronger.

[Lateral]

IIRC, he was Short in the Buu Saga, despite maturing over the timeskip.

It's been six months since then.

Actually, when he first shows up in the Buu Saga, he's grown about as much as Gohan, and his voice gets deeper. He shows up as a kid again later, for some reason. It's an inconsistency I had hoped they would fix here.

[Rater202]

But Elder Kai is supposed to have one too, and he doesn't.

"Porunga, bring back everyone who has died since the morning of the world martial arts tournament, except the really bad ones"

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You misunderstand - I know he says Beerus sealed him. However, he says nothing about Buu being stronger.

Understood, but even if that hasn't been retconned out, it's still not an inconsistency

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Beerus has had millions of years to get stronger since then.

[Psyren]

"Porunga, bring back everyone who has died since the morning of the world martial arts tournament, except the really bad ones"

I thought Porunga could only bring back one at a time?
The evidence of Toriyama's Alzheimer's only keeps growing

Understood, but even if that hasn't been retconned out, it's still not an inconsistency

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Beerus has had millions of years to get stronger since then.

Consistent or not, as I said, I'll believe it when it's stated in the show as a plot point. Clearly very little he says can be trusted at this point

In fact - Kaioshin states pretty clearly that Elder Kai was never this scared. Beerus therefore must be scarier than Buu, and thus stronger.

And that's with Beerus actually having a semblance of rules that he follows. Buu was pure evil!

[Rater202]

I think Beerus effortlessly kicking the asses of the Z-warriors until Goku went SS God establishes that he's stronger than Buu.

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Now.

Elder Kai's statement could well be interpreted as "he's the one who sealed me away, and he feels so much stronger now." but the second part goes unsaid, because Kibito Kai can feel Beerus's power for himself.

[Psyren]

I think Beerus effortlessly kicking the asses of the Z-warriors until Goku went SS God establishes that he's stronger than Buu.

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Now.

Elder Kai's statement could well be interpreted as "he's the one who sealed me away, and he feels so much stronger now." but the second part goes unsaid, because Kibito Kai can feel Beerus's power for himself.

Oh, there's no doubt he's stronger than everyone now, especially given how effortlessly he took out SS3 Goku. But the common meme here is that Beerus was weaker than Buu at some point and that's what I'm not buying.

[Rater202]

in 20-30 years, a mortal(Goku) went from being twice as strong as a normal human to stronger than most of the deities in his universe.

If this can happen, then who says a god can't become stronger than an Eldritch Abomination in several million years?

If I hadn't seen the story unfold for myself, I'd have had trouble believing the first happened.

The second is hardly the least believable thing to have potentially have happened in this franchise.

[Psyren]

It's possible, sure. It's equally possible that Beerus was always that strong, and he spent huge swaths of that time sleeping.

If DBS states it explicitly then I'll retract my objections.

[Starwulf]

It's possible, sure. It's equally possible that Beerus was always that strong, and he spent huge swaths of that time sleeping.

If DBS states it explicitly then I'll retract my objections.

Why does DBS have to state it explicitly? Elder Kai clearly states that the person who sealed him into the sword was weaker then Buu. Akira Toriyama himself(ie: Word of God) states that it was Beerus who sealed Elder Kai into the sword. Therefore Beerus clearly was fairly weak a long time ago, but obviously trained super hard in order to get stronger. There is nothing contradictory or hard to understand about those statements.

[Psyren]

Elder Kai clearly states that the person who sealed him into the sword was weaker then Buu.

Where? I rewatched it and all he says is Beerus sealed him up. Nothing about strength.

Akira Toriyama himself(ie: Word of God) states that it was Beerus who sealed Elder Kai into the sword.

This part is stated in DBS so I'm fine with it.

[Rater202]

Where? I rewatched it and all he says is Beerus sealed him up. Nothing about strength.

Z, episode 250.

Also Manga Chapter 479

[Psyren]

Z, episode 250.

Also Manga Chapter 479

You mean this?

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Yeah... color me extreeeemely skeptical.

[Kato]

You mean this?

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Yeah... color me extreeeemely skeptical.

Yeah, I'll go out and say... (again) Toriyama is just not as good a writer as others who plan their pltot out loooong in advance It clearly makes no sense for him to be weaker than Buu, even if we assume power levels are stupid.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I'll go out and say... (again) Toriyama is just not as good a writer as others who plan their pltot out loooong in advance It clearly makes no sense for him to be weaker than Buu, even if we assume power levels are stupid.

Precisely.

Man, when Kubo is out-writing you it kinda shows how far the medium has come.