Dragonball Super: So it begins - again

[Flickerdart]

Is it possible that Beerus wasn't the God of Destruction when he sealed Old Kai, and got the title later (with a power boost attached)?

[Prime32]

I'm going to go with "Toriyama forgot about the guy who sealed Old Kai being weaker than Buu". When he first wrote it, it was likely just meant to be a background detail rather than a character who would actually show up.
Or if you want an in-universe explanation, "Old Kai is senile".

What form of Buu was Old Kai referring to at the time, anyway?

[Psyren]

I'm going to go with "Toriyama forgot about the guy who sealed Old Kai being weaker than Buu". When he first wrote it, it was likely just meant to be a background detail rather than a character who would actually show up.
Or if you want an in-universe explanation, "Old Kai is senile".

What form of Buu was Old Kai referring to at the time, anyway?

Kid Buu was the only one that would have existed back when Elder Kai was out and about. He didn't swallow the South Kai and get fat until much later.

Now, whether Kid Buu is the strongest version or not is a whole other can of worms that I won't even try to open again.

Also, agreed on Old Kai being senile, though that does beg the question of his lucidity now

(Just kidding - I think it was more "Buu is the biggest baddest thing in the whole setting! Be afraid!" Then later Toriyama was like "Crap, I need a bigger fish, damn kids and their change.org petitions and their kickstarters.")

[Rater202]

It clearly makes no sense for him to be weaker than Buu, even if we assume power levels are stupid.

Power Levels are not static.

Goku used to have a PL of ten.

The official timeline also puts Elder Kai being sealed in the z-Sword at 75 million years before the start of the series.

If Goku can go from a power level of 10 to a power level of over 9000 in about 11 years, going by the official timeline, and reach the hundred millions before he hits middle age, Beerus can go from weaker than Buu to a HFIL of a lot stronger in 75 million.

Especially because we know for a fact that his personal trainer/butler is the most powerful god in universe 7.

Furthermore, the god of Destruction's job is to destroy planets, right? Well, Master Roshi blew up the earth's moon back in the low hundreds, and Vegeta could blast the earth apart with a well placed Gallick Gun back when he was at 18000.

You don't need to have a PL in the hundred Quintillions(Bare minimum*) to destroy planets.

Thus, you don't need it to be the God of Destruction, whose job is to destroy planets.

There's no reason that he couldn't have been weaker when he sealed Elder Kai into the Z-Sword.

*Frieza's Japanese actor has estimated Golden Frieza's PL at 100 quintillion. He's stronger than SSGSSJ Goku in this form, but his reaction to seeing Beerus and Whis's comment that Goku and Vegeta working together might be able to beat Beerus both imply that Beerus is much stronger than that.

[Flickerdart]

Forgetting the whole power levels thing for a second...how much stronger is SS God than SS3? Because IIRC, SS3 Goku was just about a match for Fat Buu, who is much weaker than Kid Buu. And then Goku only beat Kid Buu because the Spirit Bomb is hax, rather than using his own power. So Beerus could still be weaker than Kid Buu was, back before he got fat and was sealed. Granted, I haven't seen RF/BoG and it's been a while since I watched the ending of Z, so I have no idea if any of this makes sense.

Isn't it also possible that Old Kai never saw Beerus using his full power? It doesn't take much to destroy planets, so Beerus never needed to flex his muscles, but in a fight with Goku and Vegeta (and 75 million years of Whis encouraging him to take things seriously) he could have powered up to full and given it his all.

[Psyren]

Keep in mind that the Fat Buu that fought SS3 Goku, and the Fat Buu spit out by KB, are not necessarily equal. After all, the former had KB's evil inside him pumping him up.

[Rater202]

The way I understand it.

Kid Buu is the Original Majin Buu.

Majin Buu can absorb people to make itself stronger.

Majin Buu did this with South Kaioshin, adding the god's massive strength to his own, as well a Daikaioshin.

however, Majin Buu did not just absorb Diakioshin's power, but somehow accidentally fused with the Kais, resulting in Gaining Daikaioshin's innocent nature and inherent goodness.

This means that even though Majin Buu's power had increased significantly, becoming innocent resulted in him being much less dangerous, and the goodness suppressed a significant amount of his evil power, resulting in a net loss of strength.

5 million years later, Fat buu learns that killing is wrong after befriending Mr Satan, and eventually expels all of his Evil, which, like the Nameless Namekian before him results in him being split into his good and evil halves.

Since the original Majin Buu's power was evil in nature, expelling his evil resulted in Good Buu being significantly weaker than Evil Buu.

I'm working on the assumption that "Evil Buu" is roughly equivocal in power to Kid Buu, and that Good Buu's power is equal to the combined power of Dai and South Kaioshin, This could be weaker, or more powerful, than Fat Buu, depending on exactly how much raw power was suppressed bu Daikaioshin's goodness, but it's still weaker than kid Buu/Evil Buu.

When Evil Buu defeated and absorbed Good Buu, he took that power back into himself, but with his good completely suppressed, and with no Goodness or innocence to get in the way, he had access to the full brunt of the power he'd absorbed(That is to say, his PL was(Kid Buu+South Kaioshin+DaiKaioshin)

[Psyren]

I think that analysis is fine. Note however that his goodness was not completely suppressed even as Super Buu, as evidenced by his inability to harm Hercule/Bee.

[Rater202]

I think that analysis is fine. Note however that his goodness was not completely suppressed even as Super Buu, as evidenced by his inability to harm Hercule/Bee.

Evil people can still have friends.

[Psyren]

Evil people can still have friends.

Right, hence "completely."

[Kato]

+
If Goku can go from a power level of 10 to a power level of over 9000 in about 11 years, going by the official timeline, and reach the hundred millions before he hits middle age, Beerus can go from weaker than Buu to a HFIL of a lot stronger in 75 million.

This would make sense if Old Kai hadn't shown he was terrified of Beerus just now. Either he spent his new spare time checking up on the updated power levels of old terrors of the uni-/multiverse, or Beerus was already terrifyingly strong when he sealed him away. So strong, Kai knows even Goku who beat Buu (if by a bit of effort) wouldn't be able to keep up with him. (I'm gonna vote for the latter) Of course you could come up with a bunch of possible but unlikely reasons for why he might be afraid of a being that is weaker than the last planet killer running around, the more likely is, Toriyama didn't plan ahead for Beerus when he made the previous statement. Or forgot about the old statement now. Or, I guess my favorite to agree with Psyren, Old Kai is just senile.

[Rater202]

Old kai, being a deity,can sense the power levels of deities.

Meaning he can sense Beerus's power.

I don't imagine that you can consciously suppress your power level while you're asleep, and I can't see a deity whose power can only be sensed by other gods needing to learn to suppress it in the first place.

It's also been six months since he was freed. Plenty of time to get caught up on major events like which deities and other beings from his time are still around and what's up with them.

Edit: Also, weaker than Buu is not the same as weaker than a Kaioshin.

Buu demonstrated that quite well.

And sealing a god away is a pretty impressive trick.

[Psyren]

It's still a paradox and makes little sense. Beerus is apparently weak enough to be "frightened" of Old Kai, yet strong enough to seal him away. We know that raw strength interferes with seals (see Mafuba and Chiaotzu's paralysis attempt on Nappa.) Old Kai did not seem particularly surprised at what should have, based on your theory, been a truly staggering increase on Beerus' part, unless he was sensing him the entire time he was sealed away in the sword - and even if he was, his choice of words on awakening are even stranger as Beerus should have eclipsed Buu long before Elder Kai emerged, so comparing him to Buu then is odd.

No, rather than contorting outselves to reconcile both statements, the simplest answer is simply Old Kai's senility Toriyama forgetting this earlier statement much like he forgot King Kai's resurrection, the continued existence of dinosaurs on Earth, and Launch in general. He is an "in the moment" mangaka rather than one that is truly dedicated to world-building, so these kinds of mistakes are par for the course.

[Rater202]

It's still a paradox and makes little sense. Beerus is apparently weak enough to be "frightened" of Old Kai, yet strong enough to seal him away.

Does Krillin's ability to cut Frieza's tail off with his Kienzan mean that Krillin is stronger than Frieza? No.

Old Kai later specifies that it's his smarts and his mystical abilities, not his raw power, that made him feared.

Specifically, his unlock Potential Ability.

Which could have resulted ina being stronger than Beerus.

and Beerus was, according to Toriyama's interview, ticked off and Elder Kai because of a disagreement.

If the disagreement was heated enough, Elder Kai would have been equally ticked.

and could have made a warrior more powerful than Beerus(such as by using his unlock ability on a fellow Kaioshin)

With all of the information available to us, the two statements made are perfectly consistent.

[Starwulf]

Toriyama didn't plan ahead for Beerus when he made the previous statement. Or forgot about the old statement now.

While I'm with Rater on this particular argument, I will happily agree that it is likely Toriyama didn't plan ahead for a lot of what's going on now. I mean it's been what..20 years since the end of Dragonball Z, it is quite likely that Toriyama never even planned on continuing the Dragonball franchise, let alone planned ahead for the stuff he's unveiling now. Still, assuming he's a professional writer and went back and fully re-read/reviewed all that he's written, it's likely he did deliberately make Beerus as the person who sealed Elder Kai. Probably end up getting flashbacks to that time eventually.

[Prime32]

Specifically, his unlock Potential Ability.

Which could have resulted ina being stronger than Beerus.

...

What if Beerus was weaker than Buu... until he forced Old Kai to unlock his true power, then sealed him immediately afterwards?

[Rater202]

...

What if Beerus was weaker than Buu... until he forced Old Kai to unlock his true power, then sealed him immediately afterwards?

That would make sense, if Old Kai's unlock ability was treated like a flate power up instead of being treated like a transformation, which it is in literally everything DBZ related that includes it(Remember, Gohan didn't feel any stronger until he stood up halfway through the unlocking, got made, and powered up a bit. Later, once the ritual was complete, Elder Kai flat out said that accessing the power would be like doing "that super saiyan thing")

[Phobia]

Maybe Beerus is just mystic all the time.

[Rater202]

Maybe Beerus is just mystic all the time.

1: Mystic is a fan term. Official and semi-official sources refer to the transformation either as "Ultimate Form" or as "Potential Unlocked" form.

2: If he was, we'd see the white aura around him all the time.

[Starwulf]

1: Mystic is a fan term. Official and semi-official sources refer to the transformation either as "Ultimate Form" or as "Potential Unlocked" form.

2: If he was, we'd see the white aura around him all the time.

We're fans, are we not? No need to correct someone when it's obvious you know exactly what they mean ^^

[Rater202]

We're fans, are we not? No need to correct someone when it's obvious you know exactly what they mean ^^

Sorry.

And Sorry to Phobia.

I'm kind of a stickler for using proper official terms.

[Psyren]

I happen to like "Mystic" and will continue using it.

And even that ability is no reason to fear him. They flat out acknowledge that Beerus is someone who needs to exist. It was just a bit of poor planning on Toriyama's part that will in no way detract from my enjoyment of DBS, but I'm capable of objectively acknowledging the plot-hiccups as they arise.

[Rater202]

So. Changing Topic.

Anybody else hoping the Bingo Song makes it in to the version in Super?

[Sliver]

I thought Porunga could only bring back one at a time?
The evidence of Toriyama's Alzheimer's only keeps growing

Porunga is the original namekian dragon, and I don't recall ever reviving more than one person at a time. Dende reused Shenlong's mold, kept the ability to revive multiple people and increased the amount of wishes to three, or two if a lot of people are brought back at once.

[Rater202]

After the earth was destroyed by Majin Buu, Dende was sent to Namek to use their dragon balls to fix the earth and bring back it's people.

There was a Brief Panic when Dende remembered that Pounga could only bring back one person at a time, but Elder Moori told him that the Namekian set had been upgraded to remove that restriction(reasons why aren't given)

[Psyren]

After the earth was destroyed by Majin Buu, Dende was sent to Namek to use their dragon balls to fix the earth and bring back it's people.

There was a Brief Panic when Dende remembered that Pounga could only bring back one person at a time, but Elder Moori told him that the Namekian set had been upgraded to remove that restriction(reasons why aren't given)

Nor how. I withdraw that one, it was a nice little handwave on his part.

(At least he seemed to care about the plot holes back then...)

So. Changing Topic.

Anybody else hoping the Bingo Song makes it in to the version in Super?

The Bingo what now?

[Rater202]

The Bingo what now?

Battle of gods. The Bingo song and accompanying dance number Vegeta preformed in hopes that getting the party back on track would distract Beerus from the fact that he'd just been shot.

Since they're retelling Battle of Gods in this arc, I'm wondering if anybody else hopes the song makes it into this version of events.

[Psyren]

I can't see how it doesn't - in addition to being that episode's mandatory dose of zany, it's actually also a pretty meaningful character development moment for Vegeta.

In fact, now we get the cruise ship version

[Rater202]

I think I've found some explanations for Beerus's comments about wiping out the dinosaurs despite dinosaurs still being around on DB earth.

From most to least plausible:

1:Beerus wasn't supposed to do that, so Whis turned back time to fix it. Beerus only remembers the destroying part, because it was several million years ago.

2: The dragon balls have been around for a good few centuries. Only one pre series wish is known. Somebody could have wished for dinosaurs.

3: Beerus is somehow outside of time and thus remembers the actions of his alternate selves. After so many million years, they all kind of blur together.

[Psyren]

0: It's simply a harmless plot hole by a mangaka who isn't all that dedicated to world-building, and would rather get to drawing all the cool punchy stuff