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    Default Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    The Gestalt Theurge is a one-size-fits-all theurge class inspired by the gestalt rules. It allows you to combine any two base classes of your choice.

    Requirements
    Must have at least 3 levels in one base class (the "primary" class) and at least 2 levels in another base class (the "secondary" class).

    Table
    Level BAB Good Saves Poor Saves Class Features
    1st See below +2 +0 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    2nd See below +3 +0 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    3rd See below +3 +1 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    4th See below +4 +1 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    5th See below +4 +1 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    6th See below +5 +2 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    7th See below +5 +2 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    8th See below +6 +2 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    9th See below +6 +3 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    10th See below +7 +3 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    11th See below +7 +3 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    12th See below +8 +4 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    13th See below +8 +4 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    14th See below +9 +4 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class
    15th See below +9 +5 +1 level of existing class/+1 level of existing class

    Class features

    Hit dice: The gestalt theurge uses the same hit die as the primary class. If she also has 3 levels in her secondary class, she takes the better of the two instead. If she later gains her 3rd level in her secondary class after becoming a gestalt theurge, her hit dice improve accordingly.

    Base attack bonus: The gestalt theurge uses the same base attack bonus progression (good, average, or poor) as the primary class. If she also has 3 levels in her secondary class, she takes the better of the two instead. If she later gains her 3rd level in her secondary class after becoming a gestalt theurge, her base attack bonus improves accordingly.

    Base saving throw bonuses: The gestalt theurge's good saves and poor saves are the same as her primary class's. If she also has 3 levels in her secondary class, she takes the better progression for each save instead. If she later gains her 3rd level in her secondary class after becoming a gestalt theurge, her base saves improve accordingly.

    Skills: The gestalt theurge has all the class skills of both classes, but only gains the skill points per level of the primary class. If she also has 3 levels in her secondary class, she takes the better of the two. If she later gains her 3rd level in her secondary class after becoming a gestalt theurge, she gains extra skill points to make up the difference, which must be spent immediately, using the secondary class's class skill list.

    Class features: At each level, the gestalt theurge gains class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if she had gained a level in both her primary and secondary classes.

    If both classes have spellcasting, their spell slots are tracked separately for each class. If both classes have psionics, add together the power points and bonus power points from each class to determine the gestalt theurge's total power points; powers are manifested from the shared pool, but are still limited by the manifester level of the class that granted them. If both classes have meldshaping, add their essentia pools together, but track soulmelds and chakra binds separately, just as you normally would for a multiclass character.

    If both classes would stack to determine the effective level of an ability, gestalt theurge levels still only count as one level. For example, a Ranger 3/Scout 2/Gestalt Theurge 2 with the Swift Hunter feat would have the skirmish ability of a scout 7, not a scout 9.


    Design notes

    So, theurges are awesome, but there's a fairly limited set of options. Sure, you can do Psionic/Arcane, Arcane/Divine, Prepared/Spontaneous, Arcane/Shadowcasting, Psionic/Meldshaping, even Druid/Bard. But what if you want to be a Warlock/Totemist? Are you supposed to take 3 levels of Wizard and then abandon them just so you can qualify for Soulcaster? What about a Duskblade/Cleric? You could go Mystic Theurge, but downgrading to that chassis kind of defeats the purpose of Duskblade, doesn't it? Bards can technically use the arcane theurge classes, but since they're all balanced for Wizards and Sorcerers, you end up getting shafted, losing all the skills and bardic music abilities that made you a Bard. And for some classes, like Truenamer or Artificer, you literally have no options at all.

    The Gestalt Theurge is my attempt at bringing the awesomeness of theurges to any and every combination of classes. Instead of bringing together two specific subsystems and advancing them both while maybe adding some extra unique abilities, the Gestalt Theurge works with any two classes you want, but provides no unique abilities of its own--it's up to you to be creative with whatever combos you come up with.

    My initial draft was based more tightly on the expected entry for Mystic Theurge, requiring 3 levels in each of the two classes, nice and symmetrical-like. Playtesting revealed that this was a little more conservative than it needed to be. Martial characters like Monks and Rogues were happy enough to take it, but casters were frustrated at losing a full 3 caster levels for such a late-blooming payoff. I wouldn't lose any sleep letting that be if it were just Wizards and Clerics and Druids getting the short end of the stick, but the lower-tier casters like Bards, Warlocks, and Lurks were feeling that frustration even harder than the T1 casters, because they didn't have pre-existing theurge classes with easier entries to fall back on--where a Wizard/Binder can shrug and go into Anima Mage if he'd rather lose one caster level than three, a Bard/Binder doesn't really have that option.

    I figured a 3/2 split probably wouldn't be too overpowered--it's basically like an early-entry Mystic Theurge, which, in my experience, is still pretty reasonable. To balance it out a bit, I set it up so that an uneven split would (usually) result in a weaker chassis. So far, I think this version delivers better on the design goals.


    Notes on power level

    This class is pretty much strictly better than the Mystic Theurge if you're not using early entry. That really shouldn't be an issue, since Mystic Theurge is typically below the power curve already--I'm perfectly comfortable giving it a boost.

    On full casters, there's a significant tradeoff involved in losing caster levels, so I think the Gestalt Theurge is well-balanced for full casters (compared to sticking to a single-class build). Plus, it's probably less powerful than the myriad of existing theurge classes that only lose one caster level, like Anima Mage, Sapphire Hierarch, and Ultimate Magus. Those aren't often called out as overpowered, so this probably isn't either.

    The classes that really love Gestalt Theurge are the ones that were planning on multiclassing anyway. For heavily-frontloaded classes like Fighters, Monks, and Barbarians, a 2-level dip is already the norm, so it's very easy for them to build into a Gestalt Theurge. They don't care about delaying their class features because their class features suck anyway. So yeah, this class offers those classes an easy power boost. However, those classes are fairly weak to begin with, so I'm happy to throw them a bone, especially when that bone is primarily aimed towards late-game power, where they are traditionally lacking.

    Similarly, meldshaper and martial initiators make good Gestalt Theurges--they multiclass very well already, and their early abilities are so powerful that they can afford to be a little behind. But Gestalt Theurge doesn't really represent a major power boost beyond what they already had access to, because Jade Phoenix Mage, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Soulcaster, Sapphire Hierarch, and Soul Manifester are all things, and they all give initiators and meldshapers a massive power boost if they're willing to multiclass. Gestalt Theurge is really just letting other classes in on that same fun, and encouraging a bit of diversity--why should every Ruby Knight Vindicator worship the same deity, and every Sapphire Hierarch have the Law domain, and every Jade Phoenix Mage specialize in the same two disciplines?

    Probably the classes most impacted by Gestalt Theurge are other prestige classes, especially partial-casting prestige classes, because those are the ones that Gestalt Theurge competes with most directly. Luckily, nobody likes partial-casting classes anyway, so who cares, am I right?
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2016-01-05 at 06:26 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Now I want to try playing this class in an actual gestalt game...

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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Quote Originally Posted by pi4t View Post
    Now I want to try playing this class in an actual gestalt game...
    The standard gestalt rules forbid theurge classes, so under normal circumstances it wouldn't be allowed.

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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    very nice. now i want to play a rouge/factotum theruge. though that would lose skill synergy. maybe rouge//chameleon/warshaoper or something. i dunno.

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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Quote Originally Posted by archon1212 View Post
    maybe rouge//chameleon/warshaoper or something. i dunno.
    Base classes only. It doesn't work with prestige classes.

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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    It's the world's greatest.

    I'll be asking for this everytime I play a character.

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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Man, is 3.5 dead or what?

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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    wow this is so overpowered considering theurge classes normally has just spellcasting increase, not class features as well

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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Quote Originally Posted by willyryan View Post
    wow this is so overpowered considering theurge classes normally has just spellcasting increase, not class features as well
    See my design notes and notes on power level.

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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Quote Originally Posted by willyryan View Post
    wow this is so overpowered considering theurge classes normally has just spellcasting increase, not class features as well
    Simply not true. There are classes that progress a lot more than just double spellcasting (or give own features, see Jade Phoenix Mage or Abjurant Champion) - and seeing as a Tier 1 class gestalted with a Tier 1 class is still a Tier 1 character, but is relatively weaker due to not having enough actions to be both at the same time - and here there's even a 2-3 level delay on the spell progression compared to a standard Gestalt - the class is only as strong as the strongest class used to enter it. And the Gestalt Theurge is actually the bigger power boost the weaker the classes used to enter it.

    Class features are mostly just gravy for full spellcasters, too.
    Last edited by Xerlith; 2016-10-12 at 02:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlith View Post
    Simply not true. There are classes that progress a lot more than just double spellcasting (or give own features, see Jade Phoenix Mage or Abjurant Champion) - and seeing as a Tier 1 class gestalted with a Tier 1 class is still a Tier 1 character, but is relatively weaker due to not having enough actions to be both at the same time - and here there's even a 2-3 level delay on the spell progression compared to a standard Gestalt - the class is only as strong as the strongest class used to enter it. And the Gestalt Theurge is actually the bigger power boost the weaker the classes used to enter it.

    Class features are mostly just gravy for full spellcasters, too.
    Well, it's a pretty significant boost on many 'honest' theurges (i.e. stuff like cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 10/what the heck do I do for these last 4), but those are generally agreed to be kinda meh anyway.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Interesting.

    How does this interact with multiclass-scaling feats, like Master Spellthief, which combines the levels of Spellthief and an Arcane caster for certain effects? I wouldn't allow it to scale such that you're getting 2x your level in caster levels from this class. I'm not sure what wording would mark out those feats from double dipping.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    Interesting.

    How does this interact with multiclass-scaling feats, like Master Spellthief, which combines the levels of Spellthief and an Arcane caster for certain effects? I wouldn't allow it to scale such that you're getting 2x your level in caster levels from this class. I'm not sure what wording would mark out those feats from double dipping.
    I've already included a clause for this.
    If both classes would stack to determine the effective level of an ability, gestalt theurge levels still only count as one level. For example, a Ranger 3/Scout 2/Gestalt Theurge 2 with the Swift Hunter feat would have the skirmish ability of a scout 7, not a scout 9.

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    Default Re: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I've already included a clause for this.
    Ah, didn't see. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    Sometimes you get eaten by a giant purple earthworm.
    Journals from my D&D campaign
    My Vestige
    Found my Artifact
    Player Expectations
    Familiar with Druids?
    Spheres of Power / Might Builds
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    "I have all the vigor and vitality of a below-average elderly man!"

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