Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide

[Aurthur]

Love the guide. Loving my Lore Bard 16/Life Cleric 1. :)

A note: You didn't list Aasimar or the Eladrin from the DMG in your listing. Aasimar make excellent bards. :)

Cheers!

[EvilAnagram]

Love the guide. Loving my Lore Bard 16/Life Cleric 1. :)

A note: You didn't list Aasimar or the Eladrin from the DMG in your listing. Aasimar make excellent bards. :)

Cheers!

Yeah, I don't think I've talked about those two in any of my guides. I'll get around to it eventually.

Glad you enjoyed the guide!

[Mervold]

Well, as a fact, I don't agree either on the bolded part. ;)
Charisma is really intrisical to the Bard, because 100% of the fluff revolves about interacting socially in a more or less open and subversive way, and 85% of the mechanics also revolve around this.

This is typically not true for Rogues. Even if you don't take mechanics into account (with one in PHB and one in SCAG biaising INT, 2 in PHB biaising DEX/STR, one in UA biaising WIS, and one biaising CHA). Charisma is absolutely NOT a requirement for a Rogue to "be" a Rogue or play as a Rogue, and it's logicial because the pillar of Rogue fluff is subterfuge and thievering, and using social interactions to achieve that are but one way among many others.

I was specifically talking about fluff, and Swashbucklers but not Rogues in general.
First you tell me I am wrong because they are mechanically different. You are right, but I wrote fluff.
Then you tell me I am wrong because general Rogues dont need Charisma. You are right, but I wrote Swashbuckler.

I do not think there are other parts you could misinterpret, so lets just say I was right from the beginning

[Aaron Underhand]

Hi,

Love this guide, and understand the reluctance to try to rate every spell for magical secrets, but anyone like to suggest particularly good spells to take at 10th, 14th and 18th? I ask because although the spells are rated in various other guides they are rated for 'native' spellcasters, not for bards.

At 6th (for Lore bard) you have 3rd level spells which seems full of excellent choices, and I would struggle to take anything other than counterspell and fireball (given I am the party's arcane caster). At higher levels I find it harder.

I'm sure others would like some notes on this as well.

Thanks

[BiPolar]

Hi,

Love this guide, and understand the reluctance to try to rate every spell for magical secrets, but anyone like to suggest particularly good spells to take at 10th, 14th and 18th? I ask because although the spells are rated in various other guides they are rated for 'native' spellcasters, not for bards.

At 6th (for Lore bard) you have 3rd level spells which seems full of excellent choices, and I would struggle to take anything other than counterspell and fireball (given I am the party's arcane caster). At higher levels I find it harder.

I'm sure others would like some notes on this as well.

Thanks

A lot of it depends on your party makeup and how you play your bard. But I took counterpspell and fireball at 6 :). Haven't yet decided on 10th choices, but leaning towards:

Bigby's Hand
Immolate
Wall of Force
Destructive Wave

[EvilAnagram]

Hi,

Love this guide, and understand the reluctance to try to rate every spell for magical secrets, but anyone like to suggest particularly good spells to take at 10th, 14th and 18th? I ask because although the spells are rated in various other guides they are rated for 'native' spellcasters, not for bards.

At 6th (for Lore bard) you have 3rd level spells which seems full of excellent choices, and I would struggle to take anything other than counterspell and fireball (given I am the party's arcane caster). At higher levels I find it harder.

I'm sure others would like some notes on this as well.

Thanks

The problem with making notes on this without literally rating everything is twofold: the higher in level you go, the better the average quality of spell is. There's almost nothing that's "bad" at these levels, so your choices should be based on your specific needs. Does your party need some blasting power? Cone of Cold. Do you want to be a solid archer? Swift Quiver. Want a solid debuff? Contagion. Want to summon creatures? Conjure Elemental. Want variability? Bigby's Hand or Telekinesis. Your options are plentiful, so feel free to sort through them.

[BiPolar]

The problem with making notes on this without literally rating everything is twofold: the higher in level you go, the better the average quality of spell is. There's almost nothing that's "bad" at these levels, so your choices should be based on your specific needs. Does your party need some blasting power? Cone of Cold. Do you want to be a solid archer? Swift Quiver. Want a solid debuff? Contagion. Want to summon creatures? Conjure Elemental. Want variability? Bigby's Hand or Telekinesis. Your options are plentiful, so feel free to sort through them.

Unfortunately, contagion is quite the debuff we want it to be :(

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/13/contagion-effects/

[SharkForce]

i'm quite fond of transmute rock for a level 5 spell (and it doesn't require concentration!). but it's probably hard to argue with wall of force, unless your DM has nerfed it.

[Aurthur]

Love this guide, and understand the reluctance to try to rate every spell for magical secrets, but anyone like to suggest particularly good spells to take at 10th, 14th and 18th? I ask because although the spells are rated in various other guides they are rated for 'native' spellcasters, not for bards.

At 6th (for Lore bard) you have 3rd level spells which seems full of excellent choices, and I would struggle to take anything other than counterspell and fireball (given I am the party's arcane caster). At higher levels I find it harder.

The challenge is it really depends. If you're going healer, multiclassing into Life Cleric, then Goodberry is a MUST... maybe Aura of Vitality, etc. If you're going support, then you end up picking items like Divine Word, Circle of Power, Commune or other CC/buff spells. If you're going ranged assault, maybe Swift Quiver is your 'gotta have it'. If you're going 'little bit of Column A, little bit of Column B' then literally anything you want is available. :)

Hard to rate such a versatile class with the entire class list for usefulness. I'd ask yourself 'What am I going to want to accomplish in a group'...and if you can't answer it with your current spell list, look around for what would help.

Good luck!

[EvilAnagram]

The challenge is it really depends. If you're going healer, multiclassing into Life Cleric, then Goodberry is a MUST...

Disclaimer: Multiclassing into Life Cleric is not a must. They're magnificent healers, but there's an opportunity cost to multiclassing

[Aurthur]

Disclaimer: Multiclassing into Life Cleric is not a must. They're magnificent healers, but there's an opportunity cost to multiclassing

To be clear, that's not what I said or meant. If you multiclass into Life Cleric as a Bard, then Goodberry is a must for your repertoire. :) 4hp berries is just...awesome.

[EvilAnagram]

To be clear, that's not what I said or meant. If you multiclass into Life Cleric as a Bard, then Goodberry is a must for your repertoire. :) 4hp berries is just...awesome.

Ah, I misread. My apologies.

[Baelwolf]

I just have to thank you for putting this handbook up. It's actually been very beneficial to me. Just got into 5e and reading your guide made me finally commit to playing a bard (always wanted to, just never liked the 3x bards). Even still won't be playing a pure bard as I plan on dipping 2 levels into lock, but it is looking like I will have an immense amount of fun!

[Yuroch Kern]

I echo the various accolades! This guide has allowed the creation of my now 6th level Valor Bard. Although not as optimised as some would do, the sheer amount of Metal I have brought has defeated dragons! When you working on the rest of the classes? You do good work.

[EvilAnagram]

Thank you both! I'm glad to hear people are having fun with my suggestions, and I'm glad that metal bards are still a thing. I'm working on another guide as we speak.

[Aaron Underhand]

Thanks to all with spell selections, many ideas there, which was all I needed.


I do think the guide could have a simple section for magical secrets which just said 'some key spells at each level' with

6th level (lore bard)

Counterspell - if you are facing opposing casters
Fireball - if you need to add AoE blasting
Spiritual Weapon - for bonus action efficiency
Goodberry - if multiclassed with life cleric

...etc

[Ohillion]

I just have to thank you for putting this handbook up. It's actually been very beneficial to me. Just got into 5e and reading your guide made me finally commit to playing a bard (always wanted to, just never liked the 3x bards). Even still won't be playing a pure bard as I plan on dipping 2 levels into lock, but it is looking like I will have an immense amount of fun!

Any chance you'd be willing to post your build? I'm working on a 4th level Lore Bard and I'm curious if I should dip into Warlock with one of these 4 levels. If you've found success with just a Lore Bard, I'd love to see it. A pure class Lore Bard doesn't sound bad at all.

[BurgTurdler]

@EvilAnagram Awesome guide man! I've never played a Bard but in another thread I was asking people the best way to get all the lightning spells and powers. I was stuck between the tempest cleric the storm sorcerer the evocationist wizard and the druid. Most of the people in that thread said Bard was the way to go with maybe two levels in tempest cleric for the features. I'm looking for lightning bolt, shocking grasp, chain lightning, call lightning, witchbolt, etc. Also anything with thunder would compliment those nicely.

You clearly know Bards really really well. Could I ask you to take a few minutes and lay out the best build to get to having all of those spells? I would really appreciate it. I'll even bake you muffins...

[Socratov]

@BrugTurdler: Well, if you are going Lore Bard, you can easily get thunderwave and thunderclap, and 4 of those spells you can get through magical secrets, but for this I think the storm sorcerer or tempest cleric is the better option. Though you might want to take a look at Druid. Also, I'd urge you to not forget about Chromatic Orb, which has the potential to be any element and does decent damage (and as a sorcerer can be twinned).

Honestly, the storm sorcerer might be best, you will miss some spells, but you even get Call Lightning for free. Which is huge. I can only urge you to take empower metamagic to reroll those pesky 1's and depending on your spell selection.

Bard can do much, and it might do well here, but in this case I feel it would be like pushing a square peg through a round hole.

[Penchant]

True Strike / Light Cleric 1 / Wisdom

True Strike may possibly be underrated.
I use True Strike as a readied action as often as possible, based on the fact that i successfully argued that the spell description mandates the cast as an extension of the hand with pointed finger, not extension of the arm. Any performer worth his salt can surreptitiously manage to point a finger. You don't have to take a big bold step forward and brazenly thrust your arm out with an attention grabbing flourish (although i have, as part of the performance)

Charisma and proficiency bonus allow me to enter most situations (where humanoids are involved) and bluster my way into a round of free action prior to initiative, often allowing for some measure of surprise. With true strike readied under the condition of "enemy draws weapon or moves to attack" i get advantage on something prior to the initiative roll almost every time.

Also, if you're barding right, your dm is going to try to kill you because you're screwing up all of his plans. I went one level in to light cleric and between warding flare and cutting words, he basically cannot roll to hit me. It's to the point where, when he does, i just say "no, you don't".

Finally, I don't understand the rationale behind wisdom as a dump stat. Perception and passive perception checks have been constant thus far and have often saved our party from dire consequences. Is my DM just overusing perception checks, having come from pathfinder?

[Nu]

Finally, I don't understand the rationale behind wisdom as a dump stat. Perception and passive perception checks have been constant thus far and have often saved our party from dire consequences. Is my DM just overusing perception checks, having come from pathfinder?

Perception is important. But the opportunity cost of having a higher Wisdom score solely for an extra +1~2 to Perception is very high. By all means, train Perception, select it for Expertise, but it's probably best not to invest in Wisdom beyond a 10 or 12. Unless you have another, specific reason for doing so (multi-classing, etc.).

[Xeethra]

Perception is important. But the opportunity cost of having a higher Wisdom score solely for an extra +1~2 to Perception is very high. By all means, train Perception, select it for Expertise, but it's probably best not to invest in Wisdom beyond a 10 or 12. Unless you have another, specific reason for doing so (multi-classing, etc.).

Many spells have wisdom for a saving throw. Insight is also helpful in social interactions if you're the face of the party. My lore bard's dump stats were strength and intelligence.

[lall]

Many spells have wisdom for a saving throw. Insight is also helpful in social interactions if you're the face of the party. My lore bard's dump stats were strength and intelligence.

Mine too, but WIS is only 4th most important. Many of the spells where you make a WIS save require the baddie to be able to see you, so if you have Nondetection and Greater Invisibility going, you can sometimes avoid the spell. Other party members can (in many situations) help with Insight and Perception, even though as Nu mentioned, you won't be horrible in those if you're proficient in them. Alert can also help make up for a not so great Perception.

[EvilAnagram]

snip

Honestly, the Bard adds very little for these aside from Magical Secrets. A Storm Sorcerer with a two-level dip in Tempest Cleric is a much better bet, as your class features actually aid tour ability to cast lightning and thunder spells.

There's a very reactionary, hyperbolic element in the community exaggerates how useful a Bard is in specific builds. The same people tend to claim that a Bard is the best at anything, even if he has no features that enhance its abilities in that area. A storm mage is a good example of this. My favorite is the perennial claim that Bards make better Rangers than Rangers because the Bard gets access to a handful of Ranger spells before the Ranger does. Nevermind that by the time the Bard gets to use those spells, he spent 10 levels not being a Ranger while the Ranger has spent 10 levels being a Ranger.

The Bard is great, but Storm Sorcerers, Lightning Draconic Sorcerers, Evocation Wizards, and Tempest Clerics are all better at being storm mages than Bards are.

True Strike / Light Cleric 1 / Wisdom

1. You know what's just as effective as readying True Strike? Taking a defensive action. Or readying a defensive action.

2. Light Cleric is on par with Life Cleric dips in that you have to pump a dump stat (admittedly a usefull one) and delay your Sorcerer progression, but the benefits are decent.

3. Wisdom is a great stat, but boosting it means losing AC, attack value, concentration, or spell ability. There's simply a big opportunity cost.

[rooneg]

At what level do you think Sleep starts to lose its luster? I've got a Knowledge Cleric 1/Bard N AL character who just hit 3rd level as a bard (and will probably immediately jump to 4th due to "catch up"), is it worth swapping out Sleep for another 2nd level spell, or should I keep it around for now? Current Bard spell list is:

Cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion
1st Level: Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Thunderwave

I'm currently looking at picking up Suggestion and Heat Metal for my next two spells, are there others I should consider dropping some 1st level spells for? Hold Person maybe? Is Sleep first on the chopping block? Or are there other options worth considering here?

[EvilAnagram]

At what level do you think Sleep starts to lose its luster? I've got a Knowledge Cleric 1/Bard N AL character who just hit 3rd level as a bard (and will probably immediately jump to 4th due to "catch up"), is it worth swapping out Sleep for another 2nd level spell, or should I keep it around for now? Current Bard spell list is:

Cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion
1st Level: Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Thunderwave

I'm currently looking at picking up Suggestion and Heat Metal for my next two spells, are there others I should consider dropping some 1st level spells for? Hold Person maybe? Is Sleep first on the chopping block? Or are there other options worth considering here?

Sleep is definitely first on the chopping block. Your others are consistently useful. It should still be fine for now, but if your DM prefers high-HP enemies then you should ditch it. Other than Suggestion and Heat Metal, I would consider Invisibility.

[rooneg]

Sleep is definitely first on the chopping block. Your others are consistently useful. It should still be fine for now, but if your DM prefers high-HP enemies then you should ditch it. Other than Suggestion and Heat Metal, I would consider Invisibility.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. It's kind of hard to predict what my DMs will throw at me regarding high hit point monsters, since this is an AL character that I mostly play at cons a couple of times a year, I don't have any consistent game I play in, so we're firmly in the "expect table to table variance" area ;-) Maybe I'll hang on to sleep through level 3 and 4, and keep it around for a swap later on. It doesn't really feel like most of the other stuff on my list really loses its appeal, and it might be nice to swap it for a 3rd level spell when I level up to 5th as a bard, since by then I've got 3 3rd level slots and it would be good to have more options for them.

[Talionis]

True Strike / Light Cleric 1 / Wisdom

True Strike may possibly be underrated.
I use True Strike as a readied action as often as possible, based on the fact that i successfully argued that the spell description mandates the cast as an extension of the hand with pointed finger, not extension of the arm. Any performer worth his salt can surreptitiously manage to point a finger. You don't have to take a big bold step forward and brazenly thrust your arm out with an attention grabbing flourish (although i have, as part of the performance)

Charisma and proficiency bonus allow me to enter most situations (where humanoids are involved) and bluster my way into a round of free action prior to initiative, often allowing for some measure of surprise. With true strike readied under the condition of "enemy draws weapon or moves to attack" i get advantage on something prior to the initiative roll almost every time.

er?

I think this is the way to use True Strike, but it won't work anywhere near 100% of the time and it's a big question if it's worth the cantrip. If you have it yes, it's easy to fluff as a bard your use of True Strike, but almost any other character can do the same. I'm glad it's working with you, but is it really worth it's?

[Ashrym]

I think this is the way to use True Strike, but it won't work anywhere near 100% of the time and it's a big question if it's worth the cantrip. If you have it yes, it's easy to fluff as a bard your use of True Strike, but almost any other character can do the same. I'm glad it's working with you, but is it really worth it's?

True strike is S only and appears to be meant as an amush cantrip.

Hiding successfully, casting true strike, and attacking a target the next round with an important attack, for example, and I would consider that very niche. It only applies if the bard cannot attack while remaining hidden / unseen. Hiding the S component hidden in precombat interaction is an interesting idea but as a DM I would grant insight vs deception because the player clearly plans on attacking.

It also enables sneak attack if the character has it when out in the open and without a partner handy to enable that sneak attack.

There are too many ways to get advantage on attacks as the levels increase and the action spent casting it typically would have been increased damage

[quietkal]

Never played a bard before, but your guide really helped put one together! Thanks!