Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide

[Dekker500]

Jack of All Trades: You will never be bad at a skill. Also applies to Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and Telekinesis ability checks, which is pretty damned helpful.

You missed another extremely helpful bonus from Jack of All Trades - It applies to Initiative as well!

As mentioned in the Official Sage Advice Compendium (dang, can't post links, work this into your browser manually then - h t tp media.wizards.com /2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) , at the top of page 9,

... initiative rolls are Dexterity checks, so Jack
of All Trades can benefit a bard’s initiative, assuming the
bard isn’t already adding his or her proficiency bonus to it.

That clarification/ruling alone makes Jack of All Trades one of the most frequently used Bard ability!

[EvilAnagram]

Thanks for this!!

Sarah Stone is the artist of the Tiefling bard

Thank you! Giving credit where it's due is very important to me.

You missed another extremely helpful bonus from Jack of All Trades - It applies to Initiative as well!

This is a good point. I'll work it in when I update for XGtE.

[Spamotron]

Now that Adventurer's League has announced that they're going to use the Treasure Points variant for magic items described in Xanathar's Guide it looks like being able to choose your items is going to become far more common. Perhaps a more detailed look at magic items in your guides is in order.

[EvilAnagram]

Now that Adventurer's League has announced that they're going to use the Treasure Points variant for magic items described in Xanathar's Guide it looks like being able to choose your items is going to become far more common. Perhaps a more detailed look at magic items in your guides is in order.

How about I catch all of my guides up to the XGtE spells and archetypes, and then we talk about adding magic items.

[KillingTime]

OK here's a question:
Best 3rd level spells for a drow lore bard.....

I'm trying to keep reasonably themed with this character, which is heavy on the charms and enchantments, but low on more obvious flash-bang or real physical effect damage. Illusions are ok though.
I'm also trying to cover the bases as far as targetting different saves, so anything that avoids an overabundance of Wis save spells is a good thing.

My Picks:
Bestow Curse - The ubiquitous Wis save, but a powerful and versatile spell. Unlikely to be a real combat turner though.
Fear - More Wis saves, but with a strong AOE.
Hypnotic Pattern - Yet another Wis save. Kind of similar to Fear in many respects so both would be somewhat redundant. Probably the stronger of the two given the range and more limited allowance for effected creatures to re-save.
Enemies Abound - Now we're talking! Int save! And a potentially devastating effect if you target the right enemy. Nice range too.

Outside Choices:
Stinking Cloud - Not a bad spell, and brings another new save into play (Con), but doesn't really fit my theme if I'm being picky. Could always re-skin it for fluff though.
Dispel Magic - Useful but boring, especially since I already plan to take Counterspell with magical secrets next level. Will probably leave this to the wizard.

As you can probably tell, I'm leaning towards Hypnotic Pattern and Enemies Abound, but I would be keen to hear alternative ideas.

[scoutsdoitbettr]

OK here's a question:
Best 3rd level spells for a drow lore bard.....

I'm trying to keep reasonably themed with this character, which is heavy on the charms and enchantments, but low on more obvious flash-bang or real physical effect damage. Illusions are ok though.
I'm also trying to cover the bases as far as targetting different saves, so anything that avoids an overabundance of Wis save spells is a good thing.

My Picks:
Bestow Curse - The ubiquitous Wis save, but a powerful and versatile spell. Unlikely to be a real combat turner though.
Fear - More Wis saves, but with a strong AOE.
Hypnotic Pattern - Yet another Wis save. Kind of similar to Fear in many respects so both would be somewhat redundant. Probably the stronger of the two given the range and more limited allowance for effected creatures to re-save.
Enemies Abound - Now we're talking! Int save! And a potentially devastating effect if you target the right enemy. Nice range too.

Outside Choices:
Stinking Cloud - Not a bad spell, and brings another new save into play (Con), but doesn't really fit my theme if I'm being picky. Could always re-skin it for fluff though.
Dispel Magic - Useful but boring, especially since I already plan to take Counterspell with magical secrets next level. Will probably leave this to the wizard.

As you can probably tell, I'm leaning towards Hypnotic Pattern and Enemies Abound, but I would be keen to hear alternative ideas.

You can always pick a lower level spell and just upcast it.

There are a bunch of spells that will be good for you to pick that are lower level and some that you can use as an "attack" that arent normally considered like that. You can always HEX and then use your WIS save spells, cause disadvantage on WIS saves

Bane - CHA save
Arms of Hadar - STR save
Hunger of Hadar - DEX save
Dissonant Whispers - WIS (but still good)
Hex
Ray of Sickness - CON save
Levitate - CON save (pick a melee creature up and hold him there, or just move him over a cliff and drop him, he will slowly fall but at least hes gone out of the fight)
Earthengrasp - STR Save

Most of these you will need to pick up with magical secrets, but you can still get some pretty nice spells.
Im playing a whispers bard/archfey warlock for control and it is working out great, could use GOO warlock as well.

[KillingTime]

Some interesting ideas there.

For reference, his spell list is currently:

C: Dancing Lights / Friends / Minor Illusion / Vicious Mockery

1: Bane / Dissonant Whispers / Faerie Fire / Healing Word

2: Heat Metal / Hold Person / Suggestion

As you can see I'm trying to keep a spread of saves to attack, and have a pretty decent range of different abilities. But aside from Heat Metal, it's all just charm-like effects and illusions, which I'd like to keep.
I'm also probably going to drop faerie fire to free up an extra spell, since I get it as a long rest ability as a Drow anyway.

I'm interested in what people would choose for their Bard spells at 5th rather than any magical secrets picks (for which I'm pretty set on counterspell and pass without trace).

FYI
Hex doesn't allow you to affect an enemies saving throws, just ability checks (I've made the same mistake.)
I think Bane is the only spell that affects saving throws.

[EvilAnagram]

If you drop Faerie Fire, I would replace it with another first level spell.

Since your goal is to target numerous saves, Enemies Abound is fantastic for you. You're also pretty low on AoE enchantments, so either Hypnotic Pattern or Fear works. Basocally, trust your instincts. Youve got this.

[scoutsdoitbettr]

Ah yes I always make that mistake with hex. I was thinking of bane.

Paladin and cleric has some decent control spells too, command is one i can think of. Dont count out the sleep spell. It has some great uses. I try to think outside the box when it comes to battlefield control. Alot of the aoe terrain type spells (cloud of daggers, etc) work very well to control the pace of combat. Even Booming blade as a cantrip makes the enemy think twice before they move.

[EvilAnagram]

Ah yes I always make that mistake with hex. I was thinking of bane.

Paladin and cleric has some decent control spells too, command is one i can think of. Dont count out the sleep spell. It has some great uses. I try to think outside the box when it comes to battlefield control. Alot of the aoe terrain type spells (cloud of daggers, etc) work very well to control the pace of combat. Even Booming blade as a cantrip makes the enemy think twice before they move.

He isn't asking about Magical Secrets. See here:

I'm interested in what people would choose for their Bard spells at 5th rather than any magical secrets picks (for which I'm pretty set on counterspell and pass without trace).

[JellyPooga]

That clarification/ruling alone makes Jack of All Trades one of the most frequently used Bard ability!

The interesting thing about JoaT, to my mind, is that it applies to straight ability checks like those you'd call for to lift a portcullis or bust a door down (Str), hold your breath (Con) or get a "gut" feeling (Wis) and so forth; all those things not covered by a skill (in addition to those that are). It creates a weird situation where a Bard can be the go-to guy for things you wouldn't neccesarily associate with someone that's kind of just supposed to be better at skills.

[Chunkosaurus]

As a quick multiclassing note. Fighter is also absurdly good for swords bard. You get all the armor(shield proficiency is so good makes dueling better) and weapon proficiencies and an additional fighting style along with second wind. This should honestly be sky blue for swords bard. I'm currently playing a fighter1/Swords bard X and it turns you into a martial powerhouse. I have 19 AC resting(studded leather+4 dex+shield+defense fighting style)and then can flourish for +1d8 to AC. It's very hard to challenge me in melee

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I'm interested in what people would choose for their Bard spells at 5th rather than any magical secrets picks (for which I'm pretty set on counterspell and pass without trace).

Synaptic Static seems like an excellent choice, while Animate Objects is always solid if a bit fiddly.

[Snivlem]

Some interesting ideas there.

For reference, his spell list is currently:

C: Dancing Lights / Friends / Minor Illusion / Vicious Mockery

1: Bane / Dissonant Whispers / Faerie Fire / Healing Word

2: Heat Metal / Hold Person / Suggestion

As you can see I'm trying to keep a spread of saves to attack, and have a pretty decent range of different abilities. But aside from Heat Metal, it's all just charm-like effects and illusions, which I'd like to keep.
I'm also probably going to drop faerie fire to free up an extra spell, since I get it as a long rest ability as a Drow anyway.

I'm interested in what people would choose for their Bard spells at 5th rather than any magical secrets picks (for which I'm pretty set on counterspell and pass without trace).

FYI
Hex doesn't allow you to affect an enemies saving throws, just ability checks (I've made the same mistake.)
I think Bane is the only spell that affects saving throws.

I'd grab hypnotic pattern (it's so good) and then change either suggestion or hold person for blindness/deafness to thin out the widom-saves (and concentration spells) a bit.

[werescythe]

What are some spell/feat suggestions for a player who is playing a Glamour Bard?

EDIT:

Also what are your opinions on Evard's Black Tentacles when it comes to Magical Secrets?

[EvilAnagram]

What are some spell/feat suggestions for a player who is playing a Glamour Bard?

EDIT:

Also what are your opinions on Evard's Black Tentacles when it comes to Magical Secrets?

E's tents is a very fun spell.

As for a glamour bard... I would make the same recommendations I do in the guide? Are you going for anything in particular?

[werescythe]

E's tents is a very fun spell.

As for a glamour bard... I would make the same recommendations I do in the guide? Are you going for anything in particular?

Well, one of the issues I have been having is that I have a lot of good spells that are all concentration, so it might be nice if I had some spells that I could use either to control the battlefield or manipulate NPCs that didn't necessarily use concentration (especially since a few of the abilities I already have as a level 7 glamour bard rely on concentration themselves).

Does the Warcaster Feat affect the Glamour Bard's abilities?

[EvilAnagram]

Well, one of the issues I have been having is that I have a lot of good spells that are all concentration, so it might be nice if I had some spells that I could use either to control the battlefield or manipulate NPCs that didn't necessarily use concentration (especially since a few of the abilities I already have as a level 7 glamour bard rely on concentration themselves).

Does the Warcaster Feat affect the Glamour Bard's abilities?

Well, I've got some bad news. Most of the Bard list ous concentration.

That said, Healing Word, Thunderwave, Lesser Restoration, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door

And if you want to move away from concentration, maybe stay away from Evard's Black Tentacles. Counterspell is good

[KillingTime]

Well, I've got some bad news. Most of the Bard list ous concentration.

This is quite an issue I've come across while trying to find a good balanced spread of spells.

Dissonant Whispers is an amazing spell - decent damage and very useful battlefield control at 1st Level.
Probably my go-to non-concentration spell... and particularly evil on an enemy you've softened up already with Bane.

[Snivlem]

Well, I've got some bad news. Most of the Bard list ous concentration.

That said, Healing Word, Thunderwave, Lesser Restoration, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door

And if you want to move away from concentration, maybe stay away from Evard's Black Tentacles. Counterspell is good

Dissonant whisper and also blindness/deafness are good non-concentration spells.

[PopeLinus1]

Hey, Idea? Maybe do another thread that has all of the feats, and then rank which classes are best for it?

[EvilAnagram]

Hey, Idea? Maybe do another thread that has all of the feats, and then rank which classes are best for it?

I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not sure if there will be much value added to the community. I don't think many people select classes based on the feats they want.

[PopeLinus1]

I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not sure if there will be much value added to the community. I don't think many people select classes based on the feats they want.

Well, yeah, probably, I just thought it would be cool to see which feats work for what classes, or if some feats don’t work for anybody.

[lt_murgen]

Well, one of the issues I have been having is that I have a lot of good spells that are all concentration,

Well, I've got some bad news. Most of the Bard list ous concentration.

That said, Healing Word, Thunderwave, Lesser Restoration, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door

And if you want to move away from concentration, maybe stay away from Evard's Black Tentacles. Counterspell is good

Dissonant whisper and also blindness/deafness are good non-concentration spells.

When my Lore Bard got the Magical Secrets bump, I tried to address that very issue. Being able to pick from any list is a boon. So I grabbed up Eldritch blast and Counterspell. Since Eldritch is a cantrip, it levels with me, so being able to reliably do 2D10 Force against high wisdom opponents (who shrug off Cutting Words) is useful. And Counterspell is a reaction, allowing more battlefield control.

[FabulousFizban]

three things:

1st) Bane should be blue. It is important to consider synergy. Cast bane, whoever fails the save is now the subject of your vicious mockery, taking a 1d4 penalty to their save against it for 1d4 damage and disadvantage. Of course, it really comes down to what you need to do: need to hit the enemy? faerie fire, need the enemy not to hit you? bane. More importantly, as a debuffer, you need the ability to target multiple saves - FF is Dex, Bane is Cha. Up your game with silent image (int) and heat metal (con). then get a spell for wisdom (charm person/suggestion/viscous mockery) and find a way to hit strength (magic initiate entangle) and you'll always have the right spell for any enemy. (Also, monsters suck at charisma saves so Bane usually hits multiple targets). Bane+viscious mockery+cutting words = never get hit

2nd) Healer is blue if your party doesn't have a cleric. 1d6+4+CL healing for 1GP per heal? yes please. Honestly, it's worth picking up regardless, as stabilizing with 1 HP will pop party members back into the fight, then the Paladin can lay hands on herself, or the fighter can 2nd wind, or the barbarian can give zero ****s, and get right back into it. Out of combat, which is when you should be healing anyway, combine it with song of rest and let the cleric cry himself to sleep.

3rd) Ritual Caster is always sky blue. It dramatically increases your out of combat utility. Yes Bards get rituals, but you don't want to waste known spells (and thus combat ability) picking them. Moreover, Ritual Caster lets you choose what spell list you want for your rituals. Always choose wizard as it has the largest ritual list. It doesn't matter if your int sucks, these aren't save spells. Start hunting in every town for scrolls and harassing every wizard you come across to look at her spell-book; now look at what you can add to your spellcasting all without burning slots.

Alarm (1st)
Animal Messenger (2nd)
Augury (2nd)
Beast Sense (2nd)
Commune (5th)
Commune with Nature (5th)
Comprehend Languages (1st)
Contact Other Plane (5th)
Detect Magic (1st)
Detect Poison and Disease (1st)
Divination (4th)
Drawmij's Instant Summons (6th)
Feign Death (3rd)
Find Familiar (1st)
Forbiddance (6th)
Gentle Repose (2nd)
Identify (1st)
Leomund's Tiny Hut (3rd)
Locate Animals or Plants (2nd)
Magic Mouth (2nd)
Meld Into Stone (3rd)
Phantom Steed (3rd)
Purify Food and Drink (1st)
Rary's Telepathic Bond (5th)
Silence (2nd)
Speak with Animals (1st)
Tenser's Floating Disk (1st)
Unseen Servant (1st)
Water Breathing (3rd)
Water Walk (3rd)

4th) Lore Bard: You are taking Counter-spell and Conjure Animals at 6th. Yes, you are.

Be a variant human, by fourth level you will have healer and ritual caster. which you take first just depends on whether you have a cleric. If not, take healer first so your party don't die. If the cleric has got you and the party really doesn't need more healing, take magic initiate for more cantrips and an extra spell. entangle anyone?

[EvilAnagram]

Bane should be blue.

Generally, I don't think a concentration spell that can only disable a single enemy is worth it. This spell simply gives you the opportunity to disable a single enemy, which seems even less worth it. If you work out a combo with another caster to keep Hold Person or another nasty disabling spell, it can be amazing. However, that's not usually going to happen, so I'm less impressed with this spell.

Healer is blue if your party doesn't have a cleric.

In combat, Bards have access to healing spells. Out of combat, bards have access to Song of Rest. If your character is literally the only one in the party with access to healing abilities, or if your party doesn't stop for short rests enough, this would be worth taking. Otherwise, I would definitely opt not to take it, especially since its usefulness declines as potions become more available. It's useful, but it's rarely going to be important, unless party makeup demands it.

Ritual Caster is always sky blue.

First, while I appreciate your zeal, I do not take a prescriptive tone in any of my ratings. Ritual caster provides access to three situationally useful spells with the opportunity to maybe get more. That's fun, but there's rarely going to be a moment when this makes or breaks the game for characters. Occasionally, it will make a character's life easier. Identify alone might be worth the feat, but if someone wants something that will directly increase their combat potential, this won't do it.

Lore Bard: You are taking Counter-spell and Conjure Animals at 6th. Yes, you are.

Your choices aren't necessarily the choices other people will want to make.

Be a variant human, by fourth level you will have healer and ritual caster. which you take first just depends on whether you have a cleric. If not, take healer first so your party don't die. If the cleric has got you and the party really doesn't need more healing, take magic initiate for more cantrips and an extra spell. entangle anyone?

That's fun. I hope you enjoy that build if you play it. That said, there's no reason anyone should feel remotely pressured to play that build.

[Crgaston]

Generally, I don't think a concentration spell that can only disable a single enemy is worth it. This spell simply gives you the opportunity to disable a single enemy, which seems even less worth it. If you work out a combo with another caster to keep Hold Person or another nasty disabling spell, it can be amazing. However, that's not usually going to happen, so I'm less impressed with this spell.

Actually, Bane targets 3 enemies with a 1st level slot plus one enemy per upcast slot. So it’s actually pretty good, especially considering the Cha save.

[EvilAnagram]

Actually, Bane targets 3 enemies with a 1st level slot plus one enemy per upcast slot. So it’s actually pretty good, especially considering the Cha save.

Well, that changes things considerably. Egg, meet face and all.

[sophontteks]

I'm not sure if any of this would change what you have in the guide, but I thought I'd mention a cool trick with enthralling performance.

Its a niche skill because you have to perform for a minute, and they have to watch the performance. The result, however, is stupid strong. Its a souped-up undetectable charm person that effects up to 5 people. So, we just have to get around the setup to make this really good.

Well, how about using suggestion? "you want to gather your friends and watch me perform at location."

For the low cost of a level 2 spell you just turned several NPCs into utterly adoring fans who will brag about you and create even more fans, and try to foil any plots against you they may know of.

Since this is far and away better then being a 'friendly acquaintance' we can expect much better results from following persuasion checks too. The ability in and of itself won't make you allies, but that persuasion check with advantage afterwards surely could.

The ability deserves to be tricky to set up, because the effect is just so good.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm not sure if any of this would change what you have in the guide, but I thought I'd mention a cool trick with enthralling performance.

Its a niche skill because you have to perform for a minute, and they have to watch the performance. The result, however, is stupid strong. Its a souped-up undetectable charm person that effects up to 5 people. So, we just have to get around the setup to make this really good.

Well, how about using suggestion? "you want to gather your friends and watch me perform at location."

For the low cost of a level 2 spell you just turned several NPCs into utterly adoring fans who will brag about you and create even more fans, and try to foil any plots against you they may know of.

Since this is far and away better then being a 'friendly acquaintance' we can expect much better results from following persuasion checks too. The ability in and of itself won't make you allies, but that persuasion check with advantage afterwards surely could.

The ability deserves to be tricky to set up, because the effect is just so good.

Yeah, that fits my definition of situational. It's powerful, but its power is limited both in the capacity to carry it out and its applicability. Purple isn't bad, but rather limited.