Erfworld 51

[belboz]

It's hard to compare something illuminated by the light globe to something illuminated by other sources, but Misty's skin color reminds me of Vinnie's.

I think that's explicable without her being uncroaked. She spends 24/7 in what looks like a windowless subterranean chamber. That's not good for the complexion.

[Demented]

The stacking bonus has nothing to do with the Warlord bonuses... so far as we know. Though, if other gaming traditions hold true, only the highest Warlords' bonus will be taken into account...

It's possible that Gobwin Knob counts as several hexes... Or that it's divided into several sub-hexes.

[ryos]

I love the way Parson opens his Eyebook like a laptop, and the "lid" stays open, also like a laptop.

Shallow, but all the deep waters are already covered.

[Scientivore]

There could also be some rule that lets units move freely within cities they control, though, at least when there's no combat in the area.

I'm pretty sure that Bogroll can move freely within Gobwin Knob, regardless of how many hexes it is, for the same reason that he has zero Move in the first place: he's Garrison.

One other problem with it being one hex: It has more than eight people in it. Is that possible? Can you have more than eight units in a hex if they're not stacked?

Yes, all that Parson said (same page as Bogroll's stats) was that the stack bonus is capped at +8, not the stack size. An example of a larger stack. Countering a rebuttal.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno, I can't wait to see what happens at Dawn. Maybe his Dumb Meal will have another nifty little 'toy' which helps him do his job better. If his meals give him stuff like that on a consistant basis, it could be why his upkeep is so high... basically giving him items every turn.

[Moik]

Haha!

"Oh, hey! My Stupid Meal has a toy! It's the Arkenheartseekermultibomb! Rad!"

[factotum]

Yes, all that Parson said (same page as Bogroll's stats) was that the stack bonus is capped at +8, not the stack size. An example of a larger stack. Countering a rebuttal.

Also, I'm sure I've played wargames (admittedly more on the computer than on pencil and paper) where you could put as many units as you liked on one square/hex/whatever WITHOUT being required to stack them. (Certainly Galactic Civilizations 2 allows multiple units to occupy the same area without being stacked).

[SteveMB]

This had been my line of thinking, too. If there had been an exploit that frikken obvious then Stanley would have already used it.

It's possible that the idea is literally "inconceivable" to anyone popped on Erfworld with a mind prerecorded with knowledge of the rules of war (in addition to Langugage, etc).

If so, then perhaps it doesn't matter if it's actually a law of Erfworld physics or "merely" convention -- if the convention is strong enough, Parson can't get anybody to break it no matter how firmly he demands.

As for Parson's plan, he still has a great opportunity to do some damage if he can figure out how to move some dwagons really fast. And without a goofy 'sploit, too. Or maybe one that ain't so obvious.

I started another thread on one possible "Plan B": take advantage of Ansom's lack of Lookamancers (which might be newly known to Team Stanley) and his lack of air recon (because he sent his flyers to pick up Jillian) to move the dwagons to a hidden staging point as close as possible to Ansom's projected next-turn location.

[SteveMB]

I think that's explicable without her being uncroaked. She spends 24/7 in what looks like a windowless subterranean chamber. That's not good for the complexion.

True, the evidence so far points to "horribly treated and beaten down" rather than "uncroaked" (and, in any case, Vinnie is very different from any of the Wanda-created uncroaked we've seen).

Lots of interesting ambiguities in this comic.

[lovelyluthien]

Nice character development for Parson:
He's not only a strategy geek, but one with people skills... He actually proves himself a leader!
Love it!

[Calemyr]

First, on Misty. She's an interesting gal. She's almost certainly not uncroaked, for all the common reasons such as her ability for coherent speech and sleep, but also for her ability to disregard Parson's passive order and take self directed action (Parson never even suggested her help him). I suspect she "was" Misty because she has spent so long sealed in a room answering to a man who doesn't seem to waste time learning the names of non-heroic units. (Has Stanley even mentioned any of his units by name, other than Wanda and his Warlords? I know he tried and botched it with Bogroll, but has he ever mentioned Sizemore by name?) I also think Parson is going to get most of his help from non-heroic units like Sizemore, Misty, and Bogroll, as they don't go slack-jawed and incredulous when he hasn't learned something yet.

Next, on the exploit. Am I the only one really, really glad it didn't pan out? I expect any exploit he works out will end up having the same effect the Teraport did on the Schlock Mercenary universe, or, to a lesser extent, the atomic bomb here: one side of a conflict gains the ability to break convention, the other side learns about it and attempts to do the same, and suddenly death tolls escalate and the balance of power doesn't end up shifting at all. Such an exploit makes a powerful end game finisher, but used in any battle before that it just makes things a thousand times worse.

About Parson. I'm torn between liking the big guy and being severely disappointed in him. His introduction painted him as a strategist of Rikk Oberf proportions (and a person of Tim Mitts proportions), but so far he hasn't displayed it in action. He has spent much of his visible time trying to find exploits that, as I already said, only offer a temporary advantage before the other side works it out as well and ultimately just make things much worse. He's thinking too short term, if you ask me - if he uses an exploit to break the siege, he'll lose even if he wins. On the other hand, he is actively attempting to learn the system and forge connections with units both Heroic and not, which are two key elements of a good leader.

Finally, my speculation. Parson is smart and clever, but still immature. Even when the rules are the same, there's still a massive difference between playing a game of Warcraft and directing units in a "real life"-ish scenario. There are real consequences to Parson's actions while the video game counts you a winner even if you sacrificed 90% of your men to accomplish it, and the next battle you're back on even standing with the enemy. Parson will grow up quickly, but not before his immaturity costs him. When he does come into his own, however, he will be a force like no other.

[TiamatRoar]

(Has Stanley even mentioned any of his units by name, other than Wanda and his Warlords? I know he tried and botched it with Bogroll, but has he ever mentioned Sizemore by name?)

He's only mentioned Wanda, Parson, and his undead warlords (Leeroy, Phat Sing, Manpower, etc) by name so far. However, I think it's a reasonable (though not 100%) assumption that he knows Sizemore's name as well, since Bogroll refers to Sizemore as "Lord Sizemore" indicating that Sizemore has a high up position, too.

It's possible thus that Bogroll (who's name Stanley bungled), Misty, and Mung (and to a far far lesser possibility, Sizemore) are non-hero or non-warlord (is there a difference between hero and warlord units?) units that Stanley can't be bothered with but Wanda can be. I lean towards Sizemore being a hero unit though because he seems to be in charge of the tunnels and was referred to as "Lord" by Bogroll. He also has access to an Eyebook, and it is likely that Stanley is the only one who gives out Eyebooks.

[Parallax]

I just noticed that Parson said 'kills' instead of 'croaks' in panel 6. Maybe itallics are the way to go to bypass the language filter?

[Webwalker]

Spoiler

Show

Does Parson know how Stanely rose to power? It seems like that could also be "against the rules"... if units are spawned fully formed and ready to go, how do they change from one to another? That might be something to exploit, and quickly; turn 200 Rank Low units into 200 Rank Mid units, or 150 Rank Mid and 50 Rank High units, etc. If Stanley can turn from Mook to King, maybe Parson can do that with the units under his command.

Another potential line of reasoning is that while normal Erfworld units can't move, Parson might be able to. No one can see his "stats" as far as I know - he personally may be unrestrained, so it may be possible for him to perhaps Teleport into Ansom's camp and wreak havoc. Not necessarily kill anything, but maybe steal the ArkenPliers, or simply gloat. Something like:
Ansom: "You can't be here! It's Night! And.. how come you don't have any stats?"
Parson: "Yeah, about that... you know your rules? They don't apply to me. Better learn how to move at night, pretty-boy!"

Something like that could throw a great deal of confusion into Ansom and his forces, and cause them to change strategy quickly. Whether or not this is a good thing...

And if he can carry other units? Even if it was just a small unit, like Uncroaked Infantry, he might be able to place them at night, using his unrestrained movement to put them into strategic locations. He might even be able to "Ride" the dragons individually into place, depending on how their movement is calculated, and if he can use his movement in place of their own.

Also, Misty is awesome. Parson may like playing Evil more than Good, but he's still a Good person at heart. It's nice to see that brought up in such an offhand manner; treating Misty, Sizemore and Bogroll quite well without thinking about it. He's not being good for show, or to manipulate his minions - he's just being A Protagonist. I hope she gets as much "Screen time" in the future as Bogroll and Sizemore have had. (which isn't enough! but that's for another thread. :) )

[Sky_Schemer]

Exactly. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Otherwise Bogroll shouldn't be able to move through it so easily with 0 move.

We don't really know what a 0 move means. It could just mean they can't advance as a combat unit, but there may be rules, say, allowing "repositioning" of forces up to one hex, or something similar, at the end of a turn. Without more information on the mechanics, which like Parson we are not going to have spelled out to us so easily, we can't make many assumptions.

[benthehater]

I don't think she's uncroaked, as uncroaked units kind of start disintegrating after a while, and in the case of Manpower, at least have a wound of some kind from their death (eyepatch) even if they arn't rotting just yet. Not to mention Misty isn't saying things like "Pie".

I actually think Parson is a little too preoccupied with the plan/battle he's working on to be considered "good" in this case for being polite to Misty. He's basically using decent earth manners for trying to get work done with someone else's assistance. (Address someone by name, thank them for assistance, don't assign blame for setbacks, etc.) The fact that being on the receiving end of these basic manners is probably better than Misty's ever been treated before (slavery/loss of identity (no name, just a job title)), and likely the cause of her choice to continue assisting him and not go back to sleep is probably lost on Parson, and will continue to be lost on him until the time comes when his concentration isn't exclusively taken up by the plan he's struggling to make workable.

That said, I think he will eventually see it for what it is. On a gaming level, she's a nameless caster unit that performs a kind of administrative function. On a "this world looks like a game but is very real to everybody in it (and that now includes Parson)" she's very alive, and definitely has an identity.

[JazzManJim]

I actually think Parson is a little too preoccupied with the plan/battle he's working on to be considered "good" in this case for being polite to Misty. He's basically using decent earth manners for trying to get work done with someone else's assistance. (Address someone by name, thank them for assistance, don't assign blame for setbacks, etc.)

Except that he starts being noticeably nice to her after she tell himn, basically, that she's of no obvious use to him. He only needed her there to move some units around and he didn't apologize to her until after she told him that she couldn't do what he wanted done.

That's when he apologized and engaged her in a person-to-person conversation. I agree that it doesn't make him a saint, but it does definitely make him a decent person at heart.

The fact that being on the receiving end of these basic manners is probably better than Misty's ever been treated before (slavery/loss of identity (no name, just a job title)), and likely the cause of her choice to continue assisting him and not go back to sleep is probably lost on Parson, and will continue to be lost on him until the time comes when his concentration isn't exclusively taken up by the plan he's struggling to make workable.

No argument here, though I think it'll dawn on him that the biggest difference between him and Stanley is that Stanley could care less what happens to the folks around him and he does. At some point that's going to make a difference - perhaps a big one.

[Friv]

I actually think Parson is a little too preoccupied with the plan/battle he's working on to be considered "good" in this case for being polite to Misty. He's basically using decent earth manners for trying to get work done with someone else's assistance. (Address someone by name, thank them for assistance, don't assign blame for setbacks, etc.) The fact that being on the receiving end of these basic manners is probably better than Misty's ever been treated before (slavery/loss of identity (no name, just a job title)), and likely the cause of her choice to continue assisting him and not go back to sleep is probably lost on Parson, and will continue to be lost on him until the time comes when his concentration isn't exclusively taken up by the plan he's struggling to make workable.

I would say that this is WHY Parson is a good person. He's not throwing blame around, he apologizes for yelling (when he wasn't even yelling AT her) and for waking her up, and he generally treats her decently despite being totally preoccupied with a trick strategic problem.

While I would like to think that most people would do this, my experience is that preoccupied people tend to forget niceties in a hurry, leading to hurt feelings all around. Decent manners are the first thing to go under stress, and Parson's holding to them.

As far as actual reactions... I just want to give poor Misty a hug.

And then grab the Arkenhammer and hit Stanley four or five times. See if his head turns into a pidgeon.

[jindra34]

I would say that this is WHY Parson is a good person. He's not throwing blame around, he apologizes for yelling (when he wasn't even yelling AT her) and for waking her up, and he generally treats her decently despite being totally preoccupied with a trick strategic problem.

While I would like to think that most people would do this, my experience is that preoccupied people tend to forget niceties in a hurry, leading to hurt feelings all around. Decent manners are the first thing to go under stress, and Parson's holding to them.

As far as actual reactions... I just want to give poor Misty a hug.

And then grab the Arkenhammer and hit Stanley four or five times. See if his head turns into a pidgeon.

You realize stanley being a pidgeon would probably be an improvement in all areas for him...

[benthehater]

Well, holding onto good manners is important and good for Parson, but it's basically autopilot mode with how he's preoccupied. I'd make a decision on how Parson's moral fiber holds up when he's completely aware of it (that he's in the presense of an individual that's suffering under the conditions that she's in), and when he makes an actual choice about it.

I'm not prepared to say Parson is "good" just for the politeness. Being "nice" to slaves "feels" good, but actually doing something that helps a slave is the kind of thing that I'd consider an authentic act of goodness as opposed to merely decent manners.

That might seem a little extreme, but I'm holding to the idea that the way he's treated her so far isn't quite enough for me to put him under "good and decent" at least not yet, and my reasons for that honestly have a lot to do with presumptions/speculation I'm making about Parson's character that I don't quite have enough convincing evidence of yet.

[JazzManJim]

And then grab the Arkenhammer and hit Stanley four or five times. See if his head turns into a pidgeon.

Do you think that, at some point, Parson may realize that he has allies who will fight for him because they truly wish to do so?

I'm starting to think that could be a Very Important Thing in the not so distant future.

[JazzManJim]

You realize stanley being a pidgeon would probably be an improvement in all areas for him...

Except for height.

[Mike_Lemmer]

Except for height.

Well, the nut-pigeons are bigger than the nuts. Perhaps Stanley would turn into a mount-sized pigeon?

[jindra34]

PArson for Overlord!

[jindra34]

Except for height.

No it still would be an improvement Stanley is THAT small...

[JazzManJim]

While I'm being Question Man, let me ask another one and see what y'all think.

Is a flying unit a flying unit when it's not flying?

[jindra34]

While I'm being Question Man, let me ask another one and see what y'all think.

Is a flying unit a flying unit when it's not flying?

Probably... YES

[DeathQuaker]

I don't think she's uncroaked, as uncroaked units kind of start disintegrating after a while, and in the case of Manpower, at least have a wound of some kind from their death (eyepatch) even if they arn't rotting just yet. Not to mention Misty isn't saying things like "Pie".

Since Erfworld terminology may complicate things, I'm going with more generic terminology: I think it's possible for Misty to be "undead" without being a "zombie."

I don't know what the rules of Erfworld are exactly, but it seems to contain most of the trappings of a typical fantasy adventure world. Someone brought up the fact that Vinnie is intelligent, though perhaps "Vampiwes" don't count as "Uncroaked." Still, it may be reasonable to assume that "Vampiwes," like "Vampires," don't have heartbeats, are very pale, and are immune to certain things the living would not be.

Other fantasy worlds usually have many kinds of undead/unliving monsters in them, from mindless zombies and skeletons to powerful and intelligent creatures like vampires, death knights, ghosts, and liches. Very frequently in these fantasy worlds, undead with magic capability are usually intelligent and can speak their own minds.

There's no proof for it yet, but based on this concept and given Misty's strange appearance, I think it's at least possible for her to be "reanimated" and retain her intelligence; she's not an "uncroaked infantry unit"--she's not a zombie--but she could be "uncroaked" of a special kind we don't know about yet.

That said, of course it's quite possible she's a slave/prisoner. The arguments for that are quite good.

I just wouldn't say one or the other isn't possible until we have definitive evidence to the contrary.

[JazzManJim]

Probably... YES

Parson knows that he can't bring overwhelming strangth against either opposing column but he may be able to force a mismatch. Given that his strongest force right now are the Dwagons, how might he be able to do that? It's possible that the Dwagons are the strongest units in the game at this point, short of a Warlord with an Arkentool. It's possible that Parson can use his flying units on the ground in some way. I need to noddle this one out a bit more, but it would take advantage of the "only attack fliers with fliers in certain terrain types" potential 'sploit.

[Aquillion]

Parson knows that he can't bring overwhelming strangth against either opposing column but he may be able to force a mismatch. Given that his strongest force right now are the Dwagons, how might he be able to do that? It's possible that the Dwagons are the strongest units in the game at this point, short of a Warlord with an Arkentool. It's possible that Parson can use his flying units on the ground in some way. I need to noddle this one out a bit more, but it would take advantage of the "only attack fliers with fliers in certain terrain types" potential 'sploit.

One possibility that occurred to me:

Ansom saw the potential of an ambush of dragons from the air and moved to counterattack against it.

Ansom is very low on air units, aside from the angels.

That means that all of Ansom's limited air units (incl. the Angels) and anti-air units are now concentrated where the ambush was anticipated.

...while Ansom himself is back with the main forces.

Absent any air defenses or air superiority.

Get it?