Marvel's Ant-Man

[huttj509]

Just got back from it. Had a huge grin the entire time. Fun heist/superhero movie.

Since it came out *today* (in the US, dunno when overseas releases are), I'll remind people to remember the nice easy spoiler tags when commenting on details, let people opt in, instead of trying to opt out of reveals and information. I mean, there's a couple bits I was stunned weren't in the trailers I saw, as it seemed like easy hype-bait (cameo type stuff).

Spoiler: Specific thoughts/reactions, here be spoilers

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First, with the opening it took me a bit to recognize the people there...until Hayley Atwell opened her mouth. I'm embarrassed I didn't notice they were in a SHIELD office until after then.

Loved Falcon.

[sing]Guess who's back, back again. Hydra's back, making friends.[/sing]

And it's about time, indeed.


As to the meat of the movie, felt like a solid heist/action flick. Loved the ants. And *that's* why you give them numbers, not names.

[Kittenwolf]

I saw it last night, and quite enjoyed it :)
It was definitely much better paced than Age of Ultron, it kept moving at a good pace (though I'll admit a couple of things did feel slightly rushed, but I think they were intended to due to who was speaking).

Marvel does seem to be doing quite well with the 'Make a superhero movie in a non-superhero genre' path, it makes a nice change of pace.

A few things that need spoilering (speaking of, probably a good idea to put spoiler tag in the title)...

Spoiler

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Very annoyed that Wasp was written out in backstory, but oh well :(

Thoroughly enjoyed the Falcon cameo too, makes me quite look forward to the next movie that he's in.
On the topic of Falcon, his long-winded chinese whispers message to Scott at the end is "Yes", what was that in reference to? Did I miss a question from Scott during their meeting?

[huttj509]

I saw it last night, and quite enjoyed it :)
It was definitely much better paced than Age of Ultron, it kept moving at a good pace (though I'll admit a couple of things did feel slightly rushed, but I think they were intended to due to who was speaking).

Marvel does seem to be doing quite well with the 'Make a superhero movie in a non-superhero genre' path, it makes a nice change of pace.

A few things that need spoilering (speaking of, probably a good idea to put spoiler tag in the title)...

Spoiler

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Very annoyed that Wasp was written out in backstory, but oh well :(

Thoroughly enjoyed the Falcon cameo too, makes me quite look forward to the next movie that he's in.
On the topic of Falcon, his long-winded chinese whispers message to Scott at the end is "Yes", what was that in reference to? Did I miss a question from Scott during their meeting?

I'm not sure on general spoiler policy for the forum. I avoided putting it in the title as I've seen people interpreting that as "no reason to use spoiler tags" (even when it can help formatting). I'll sleep on it.

Spoiler: Last line

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Ok, as near as I can figure, Falcon was asking around about a guy who can shrink, with the implication that they might be interested in having those skills on the team, buddy asked his friend if friend could send word back up the chain that buddy might know a guy.

[friend] said he would.

I definitely had a "woo, wait, was Falcon looking to track the guy who robbed them? Yes isn't a good answer for that! But he's smiling, hang on." So yer not alone.

[t209]

So, being curious,

Spoiler: The infamous moment from Pym, which may be one of the reasons not to make him as one.

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Does the movie include, or at least referenced, Hank Pym's hitting his wife and possibly regretting that decision?

So what's next? I know many of you would dislike him but...Eric O' Grady, anyone (well, he's pretty much Marvel equivalent of Harry P. Flashman)?

[Dragonus45]

So, being curious,

Spoiler: The infamous moment from Pym, which may be one of the reasons not to make him as one.

Show

Does the movie include, or at least referenced, Hank Pym's hitting his wife and possibly regretting that decision?

So what's next? I know many of you would dislike him but...Eric O' Grady, anyone (well, he's pretty much Marvel equivalent of Harry P. Flashman)?

From what I understand the plan was to leave that entire box of rapid snakes buried deep in the ground where it belongs. I hope its true, the Domestic Abuse issue was always an overblown one that eats up way to much of peoples perceptions of the character.

[Helanna]

I just got back from seeing it, and I quite enjoyed it! It was lighthearted and fun, everyone in my theater was laughing throughout the movie, and it kind of makes for a nice break from the heaviness in the rest of the MCU right now. The shrinking made for interesting fight scenes and I really liked the character of Scott Lang, I'm looking forward to seeing him in ensemble casts in the future.

Spoiler

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Probably my favorite line was "Okay, so I definitely think our first order of business should be calling the Avengers". Something about the way he delivered it, I dunno. (Runner-up would be "It is very, very important to me that Cap never finds out about this." I did love the Falcon cameo.) The training montage was good, as was the final fight scene.

[Kittenwolf]

From what I understand the plan was to leave that entire box of rapid snakes buried deep in the ground where it belongs. I hope its true, the Domestic Abuse issue was always an overblown one that eats up way to much of peoples perceptions of the character.

Did you honestly just say that negative reactions to domestic abuse are "Overblown" ?

[Kittenwolf]

Spoiler

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Probably my favorite line was "Okay, so I definitely think our first order of business should be calling the Avengers". Something about the way he delivered it, I dunno. (Runner-up would be "It is very, very important to me that Cap never finds out about this." I did love the Falcon cameo.) The training montage was good, as was the final fight scene.

Spoiler

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Definitely have to agree on the "Call the Avengers" line :D
He said it.. kinda like he was stating the most utterly, utterly obvious thing in the world to someone who had somehow missed it.
Which, lets face it, in-universe it kinda is.

[Dragonus45]

Did you honestly just say that negative reactions to domestic abuse are "Overblown" ?

No I said the incident itself is overblown.

[huttj509]

So, being curious,

Spoiler: The infamous moment from Pym, which may be one of the reasons not to make him as one.

Show

Does the movie include, or at least referenced, Hank Pym's hitting his wife and possibly regretting that decision?

He has a temper. Hank Pym lashes out violently twice in the movie (relatable circumstances, but the lack of escalation along the way can lead to conclusions).

As to that incident itself:

Spoiler: Quote from the writer for that issue

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In that story (issue 213, I think), there is a scene in which Hank is supposed to have accidentally struck Jan while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration—making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross! There was no time to have it redrawn, which, to this day has caused the tragic story of Hank Pym to be known as the “wife-beater” story.

[Kittenwolf]

No I said the incident itself is overblown.

Spoiler: Quote from the writer for that issue

Show

In that story (issue 213, I think), there is a scene in which Hank is supposed to have accidentally struck Jan while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration—making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross! There was no time to have it redrawn, which, to this day has caused the tragic story of Hank Pym to be known as the “wife-beater” story.

This does depend on the version that you're referring to.
Ultimates Hank Pym was an out and out abusive wife beater. From memory his introduction panel had him beat Wasp until she fled to small size and hid under a cabinet, at which point he sprayed her with bug poison and sicced his ants on her.

I hadn't heard the reasoning behind the 616 wife beating incident though. The dangers of artist/writer disconnect I guess.

[Dragonus45]

This does depend on the version that you're referring to.
Ultimates Hank Pym was an out and out abusive wife beater. From memory his introduction panel had him beat Wasp until she fled to small size and hid under a cabinet, at which point he sprayed her with bug poison and sicced his ants on her.

I hadn't heard the reasoning behind the 616 wife beating incident though. The dangers of artist/writer disconnect I guess.

Well Ultimate Hank Pym has the same problem most of the Ultimates had, he was an ******* who only had a 10th of the depth that 616 version has. Although even by Ultimate standards he was pretty bad, but he was sort of what I meant when I said that the incident had taken over to much of peoples perceptions of Pym.

As for the 616 Pym thing even the writer artist disconnect would have been just a small incident, hank hits her once in the middle of a schizophrenic breakdown does not a wife beater make. Some other writers totally unrelated to the arc itself took off with the idea and had some characters make comments about it being a regular problem and the rest is history. Which is a shame because Pym is probably the best depiction of real mental disease and its effects on a person in superhero comics.

[Spamotron]

Yeah, Hank hit Jan all of once during a severe psychotic episode and was extremely guilty and repentant once he got his head back together. Similar incidents have happened with Peter Parker and Reed Richards to Mary Jane and Sue respectively. Peter's and Reed's instances have been utterly forgotten but Hank gets called a wife-beater. Probably because he didn't have very many memorable solo stories of his own for years before and after it.

Several good writers have then had Hank get proper therapy reconcile with Jan and move on with his life only for new writers to bring up the incident again like it happened yesterday. Perils of being a character in a shared universe where time is constantly being reset and character development undone.

[Kittenwolf]

Probably also largely caused by the bleed between various universe versions.

General pop culture osmosis doesn't really separate between 616, Utlimates, 610, 2099 and whatever else.
Hell, does anyone even remember what the 616 Nick Fury looks like?

[huttj509]

Probably also largely caused by the bleed between various universe versions.

General pop culture osmosis doesn't really separate between 616, Utlimates, 610, 2099 and whatever else.
Hell, does anyone even remember what the 616 Nick Fury looks like?

David Hasselhoff?

[Kitten Champion]

David Hasselhoff?

George Clooney!

[Ramza00]

Probably also largely caused by the bleed between various universe versions.

General pop culture osmosis doesn't really separate between 616, Utlimates, 610, 2099 and whatever else.
Hell, does anyone even remember what the 616 Nick Fury looks like?

A younger version of Paulie Walnuts from the sopranos with an eye patch.

[Razade]

The movie was awesome. Maybe my favorite after Guardians. The humor was on point, the after credit scenes were wonderful and the actors were seriously doing their best. Rudd oozed scrappy charisma and the supporting cast brought the humor.

[Hopeless]

David Hasselhoff?

I actually understand that reference!

[t209]

He has a temper. Hank Pym lashes out violently twice in the movie (relatable circumstances, but the lack of escalation along the way can lead to conclusions).

As to that incident itself:

Spoiler: Quote from the writer for that issue

Show

In that story (issue 213, I think), there is a scene in which Hank is supposed to have accidentally struck Jan while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration—making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross! There was no time to have it redrawn, which, to this day has caused the tragic story of Hank Pym to be known as the “wife-beater” story.

So I was hoping that the film might continue the "Hank the Wife beater" clinche by referencing it and audience forgetting the context behind it.
edit: Not that I am one of those "Hank the wife-beater" believer and didn't know the context behind it, I feel that the movie might include Hank and Janet's argument (that may resulted in Hank beating her in temper and scarred him for life) before the latter's death in origin story and possibly regretting that moment...I don't know but that might feel a bit controversial and make that worse.

[Razade]

So I was hoping that the film might continue the "Hank the Wife beater" clinche by referencing it and audience forgetting the context behind it.
edit: Not that I am one of those "Hank the wife-beater" believer and didn't know the context behind it, I feel that the movie might include Hank and Janet's argument (that may resulted in Hank beating her in temper and scarred him for life) before the latter's death in origin story and possibly regretting that moment...I don't know but that might feel a bit controversial and make that worse.

Why are you so hung up on this if you didn't know the context behind the meme and why would you want a fun summer super hero movie to include a scene that the general comic book audiance universally reacted violently against? What purpose would it serve in the narrative of an action movie focused mostly to teenagers? Did you honestly think they were going to include it because you don't sound like you were expecting them to. Hank Pym wasn't the main character for the film and his relationship with is wife is only a point of growth for his daughter Hope. The MCU also has nothing to do with the comic book universe.

[t209]

Why are you so hung up on this if you didn't know the context behind the meme and why would you want a fun summer super hero movie to include a scene that the general comic book audiance universally reacted violently against? What purpose would it serve in the narrative of an action movie focused mostly to teenagers? Did you honestly think they were going to include it because you don't sound like you were expecting them to. Hank Pym wasn't the main character for the film and his relationship with is wife is only a point of growth for his daughter Hope. The MCU also has nothing to do with the comic book universe.

Well, when I said "Hank the Wifebeater", I thought the poster might assume that I was thinking that Antman beat his wife as a spousal abuse instead of one time and horrible event.
Second, I was asking if the movie adapted the scene with some twists to explain the context meme and possibly redeeming Hank in public eye but possibly failing at it.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, Hank hit Jan all of once during a severe psychotic episode and was extremely guilty and repentant once he got his head back together. Similar incidents have happened with Peter Parker and Reed Richards to Mary Jane and Sue respectively. Peter's and Reed's instances have been utterly forgotten but Hank gets called a wife-beater. Probably because he didn't have very many memorable solo stories of his own for years before and after it.

Several good writers have then had Hank get proper therapy reconcile with Jan and move on with his life only for new writers to bring up the incident again like it happened yesterday. Perils of being a character in a shared universe where time is constantly being reset and character development undone.

The problem with comic writers, especially with lower tiered characters like Ant Man, is that they tend not to collaborate well.

For instance, the writers have switched their stances on Pym's wife beating at least twice in my memory. Once, when they try to reconcile and Jan reveals that Pym had assaulted her on more than one occasion, and after Secret Invasion where it is very much presented as a one time offense that Pym admits to.

The whole scene I thought was confusing when I read it, though. Largely because Jan could have kicked his ass with one hand if she wanted to. Not that that makes hitting her ok, in any way. But that scene should have ended with either Pym on the ground or Jan running off in emotional duress, not beaten in one punch as it was presented.

[Chen]

Second, I was asking if the movie adapted the scene with some twists to explain the context meme and possibly redeeming Hank in public eye but possibly failing at it.

For people just seeing the movie, I highly doubt many will even remember Hank's name in the long term.

[Logic]

Hell, does anyone even remember what the 616 Nick Fury looks like?

If I recall correctly, he was originally modeled after Sean Connery in the Bond films, but with grey hair at the temples.

[Dragonus45]

The problem with comic writers, especially with lower tiered characters like Ant Man, is that they tend not to collaborate well.

For instance, the writers have switched their stances on Pym's wife beating at least twice in my memory. Once, when they try to reconcile and Jan reveals that Pym had assaulted her on more than one occasion, and after Secret Invasion where it is very much presented as a one time offense that Pym admits to.

The whole scene I thought was confusing when I read it, though. Largely because Jan could have kicked his ass with one hand if she wanted to. Not that that makes hitting her ok, in any way. But that scene should have ended with either Pym on the ground or Jan running off in emotional duress, not beaten in one punch as it was presented.

Well after secret invasion I think they went with the explanation that he hit her the one time when she tried to stop him from doing something stupid. But Skrull Pym was the one who did the actual Domestic Violence. I only vaguely remember it though. Which makes no sense from a timeline perspective but it's better than nothing.

[Helanna]

Spoiler

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Definitely have to agree on the "Call the Avengers" line :D
He said it.. kinda like he was stating the most utterly, utterly obvious thing in the world to someone who had somehow missed it.
Which, lets face it, in-universe it kinda is.

It's always fun watching them come up with in-universe reasons that the Avengers can't just handle everything. Actually that was another good line, "Nah, they're probably busy dropping countries out of the air" or something to that effect.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I will agree with what has been said about the film, and will add that I think this is the most I have laughed with a Marvel film. Every heist film needs a heist team full of fun personalities, and this film delivered in spades. I kept thinking I would get sick of the friend, and yet I never did.

Time well spent - and yet the movie theatre was practically empty.

Grey Wolf

[t209]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-superh...an-save-genre/
Combination of this about Phantom (a "ghost" hero who's actually a title passed down from father to son) and seeing Hank Pym as 60's Antman.
I think Marvel can make both Peter Parker and Miles Morales by making the former as old Spiderman (maybe retired after having a daughter or wounded) and latter as the successor (maybe like Batman Beyond's Terry and Bruce Wayne).
Maybe resolved the lack of knowledge of him in the past as "forgotten" heroes and a meta-message on post-OMD (erased MJ and PP's marriage) treatment of him.

[Dienekes]

So, just got back from it. Now to force my opinions on people.

Spoiler

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It was pretty good. I thought Cap2 was more interesting, and Guardians was funnier. But on the whole I thought it was good.

Things I liked:
Lang's ex-wife's new boyfriend, who I will refer to as Gyp, because I don't know the name of the actual character and the actor played the hell out of the role of Gyp Rosetti on Boardwalk Empire. Anyway, a lot of these post-divorce movies make the new guy either annoyingly perfect, or an ******* for no reason. Gyp was neither, a flawed human who was a stickler for the rules. Kind of a **** to the criminal deadbeat dad, for pretty obvious reasons, but when the chips are down he'll risk life and limb for his not daughter. The worst thing I can say about him is that he's kind of a bad cop, as everyone in this movie seems to get away from him.

The Jar-Jars. The Jar-Jar is a side character who is portrayed as in some way stupid or incompetent for the sake of incredibly forced humor. They mostly service no purpose to the plot other than some exposition, and if they do help it generally seems contrived. The guys in this movie weren't that bad. Sure the talkative one was pretty annoying, at times, but he was actually very helpful. Hell, I think he has a higher body count by the end of the movie than Scott did (if you count the people in the helicopter as Yellowjacket's kills and not Scott's anyway).

Scott Lang himself was pretty fun, and quirky enough without getting into stupid territory. Also, I agree that the "Call the Avengers" line was great and I thought Pym's reasons for not wanting to do that were legitimate ones. I really wouldn't trust Iron Man either, if I could only read the newspapers about the guy.

Pym, was also pretty well done. I do enjoy that they seem to have references to him not being completely of sound mind and a reason behind it. Going with how the suit can affect your brain in vague ways. Of course they never develop how he was effected, but his anger that comes up a few times can be seen as a clue.

What I didn't like:

Really only one major thing, the villain. He was pretty weak, as far as villains go. And a lot of what he does didn't make sense. Why would he ever need to call HYDRA? Ever? Just advertise to some wealthy corporations or governments. Can you imagine what the US would pay for what is essentially the perfect spy and a nigh undetectable soldier?

And a lot of his actions don't really hold up when just looked at through simple logic. Such as, the lamb thing. Now, I have no problem with dead lambs. I enjoy eating lambs, they taste good. Sure, I can see why it would be morally problematic to use young lambs for experimentation, but I have to ask, why? Look, you just need living tissue to experiment on right? A single lamb costs around $200 and that's without the cost to maintain it. A rat costs about $25, less if you buy them in bulk, again without maintaining costs. Why are you wasting so much of your companies money for no reason? That scene just bothered me. I've never liked stupid villains. As far as evil corporation villains go, this guy ranks closer to Hammer than Obadiah Stane.

And the minor thing. I'm pretty sure the gun was pointed at Pym's head when it's fired and he goes down like he's been fatally shot. Then we see him in an arm brace.

Edit: I guess another minor irksome thing. Janet's death. Well, her problem. They've successfully found a way to write her out of one movie and leave the door open for a later appearance. Anyway, her death in terms of the cover up. Really, Pym? You think it's better to tell your daughter that her mom died in a plane crash than say "Your mom died a hero, I'll tell you about it when your older." At least one of those things your kid can look to in pride. The other will just lead to a fear of planes. I guess you can say he was trying to not follow in their footsteps of becoming a hero, but I've never liked that cliche.

So, overall, I'd recommend it. It's not the most intelligent super hero movie out there, but it was never trying to be.