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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Rizban's Avatar

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    Default Re: Experimental PrC Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell View Post
    Cursed*
    ...
    Feats: Daunting Presence
    Okay, so a fear class based on the Daunting Presence feat. I can get into that. To start off with this review, let's take a look at the Daunting Presence feat.

    With a few restrictions, Daunting Presence lets you spend a standard action to force a Will save vs shaken. If they fail, shaken applies for 10 minutes. This is pretty significant and great for fear stacking.

    The downsides: Daunting Presence requires the target be within 30 feet, have line of sight (so no using while hidden), and have an Int score. Not awful, as most enemies you'll be fighting are going to meet these requirements.
    Daunting Presence also explicitly does not allow you to affect a creature that is already shaken, a reasonable restriction on the feat. The problem here becomes that you must use Daunting Presence first, or it has no effect at all. You can't even throw the 10 minute duration onto a target that is already shaken. It's a drawback, but it's not too hard to work around.
    The unspoken part is that the shaken condition is inherently a mind-affecting fear effect. So, anything immune to mind-affecting effects or immune to fear is completely immune to this feat. For this class to be effective, it's going to need ways to mitigate or negate those immunities.


    Ominous Presence (Ex): When using the Daunting Presence feat, the Cursed may make a Intimidate check as if to demoralize the target. If the target fails their Will save against Daunting Presence or the Intimidate check is successful, the target is affected by Daunting Presence as normal. If both are successful, the penalties from the Shaken condition are doubled on the target.
    I had to read through this carefully three times to make sure I fully understood what's happening here. By my understanding, when using Daunting Presence, you also get a free action Intimidate check to Demoralize Opponent, except that instead of escalating fear, you just increase the penalties from the shaken condition, and then only if they fail both checks, one of which is opposed.

    Also, to demoralize, you have to be within melee range. So, using this ability restricts the distance at which you can use Daunting Presence, which in turn makes the 2nd-level ability to double the range totally incompatible with this ability.

    I guess that's okay. Honestly, it feels very clunky to me. You're going from just forcing a Will save to forcing a Will save, then making a skill check, then forcing a level check. I don't understand why the Intimidate check is necessary or why it has a different result than it normally would. I mean, that extra -2 to saves is useful for further escalation, but this whole effect just feels odd.

    I would either just outright apply the increased penalties to shaken with this effect or allow a more normal Intimidate check as a move or swift action (probably a move action, given the nature of the next ability). It would simplify things anyway.

    Additionally, the Cursed adds their class level to the Save DC of Daunting Presence and to Intimidate checks made to demoralize a target.
    This is reasonable.

    Horrific Presence (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the Cursed may use Daunting Presence as a Swift Action in addition to being able to use it as a Standard Action. If using Daunting Presence as a Standard Action, the Cursed may choose two targets instead of one. The Cursed may also use Daunting Presence as a Full-Round Action to use it on five targets.

    Additionally, the Cursed doubles the range of Daunting Presence (out to 60ft instead of 30ft).
    Only minor quibbles here. It should be "on up to five targets." Otherwise, a pedantic reading of the rules requires you to have five targets to use the ability.
    This is a good ability, but the wording is a little rough. Maybe try something like, "Starting at 2nd level, the Cursed may use Daunting Presence against a single target as a Swift Action. Additionally, the Cursed may use Daunting Presence as a Standard Action to affect up to 2 targets or as a Full-Round Action to affect up to 5 targets."

    Terrifying Presence (Ex): At 3rd level, the Cursed gains a morale bonus on Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls, Saving Throws, and Armor Class equal to the number of creatures suffering from a fear effect within 100ft of the Cursed.
    As was pointed out, this ability can get insanely strong insanely quickly. It either needs some sort of cap or some other restriction.

    Frankly, I would change it to be based on the number of targets he has personally afflicted with fear. Maybe something like, "At 3rd level, each time the Cursed causes a creature to become shaken, he gains a +1 morale bonus on Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls, Saving Throws, and Armor Class for 1 minute. Each time the Cursed frightens a new creature while this ability is active, the bonus increases by 1, and the duration restarts; however, frightening the same creature multiple times does not increase the bonus or duration."

    I would still implement some sort of cap to prevent shenanigans.

    Additionally, non-mindless creatures that are immune to fear effects are affected by the Cursed's Daunting Presence as if they weren't immune, though they gain a +4 bonus on the saving throw to resist the effect.
    Useful capstone. This is what is needed to make this class useful, assuming that your DM rules that being immune to fear due to being immune to mind-affecting effects is still pierced by this. I've seen it ruled both ways with no clear cut rules on how to handle the situation.

    Overall, I like the class. I have issue with the first level ability and see a need for capping the third level one, but it's otherwise pretty good.
    Last edited by Rizban; 2017-11-10 at 01:30 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Experimental PrC Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell View Post
    -SNIP-I was actually kinda stuck on the name and went with Militiaman as a placeholder until I thought of something better, still kinda grew on me.
    Some militias were better trained than others... The Swiss Army is Essentially the best trained, best equipped militia in history, and was a viable as a deterrent to invasion against both the Nazis and the Soviets. For something more officially classed as a militia look at the Minutemen in the 1770s - they could muster within a minute and managed to drive back a larger force of British regulars when the British regulars were supposed to be the best army in the world
    Quote Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell View Post
    It's one of the more difficult ones mechanically. Trying to set it up properly is... actually kind of annoying.

    The mechanics for it are Nature Bonds, what I call their connections to ley lines, which produce Motes of natural energy they can spend to power their pseudo-spells (supernatural effects referred to as Hedge Magic for simplicity). I'm having a hard time deciding how to go about it, though. The main issue is exactly how Nature Bonds are established, specifically if they are temporary and can be built up or if they are permanent and more limited in number, if they bind automatically or the Naturalist has to do something first... I can't decide. Then there are the many... many Hedge Magics I'll need to stat up for this thing (which I also need to do for the Crypt-Born which is the undead equivalent) as well as the distributions for them and the spells to connect them all together. So... yea, it'll take a little while without some help.
    Don't know what progress you've already made, but if you're thinking about the connection to the leylines and not the leylines
    themselves, I'd recommend having them build up - building up faster if they've used that leyline before, a lesser increase if they've used another leyline that ties into the same node(s), and possibly a boost to power if they've preformed a ritual at one of the nodes.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: Experimental PrC Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell View Post
    You've got the math right, 6 HP per Toughness feat, +1 Fort per Toughness Feat, and +1 NA per two Toughness Feats. I take it you chose 4 because that's the minimum number the Dauntless gets over the course of its leveling?
    I actually picked that number out of my hat - let's call it subconscious.

    I do rather like how much the Dauntless helps the sword and board combat style - a chain shirt plus a heavy steel shield gives them a boatload of durability, and they effectively get anywhere from 40 to 70 bonus HP from using them - which is nothing to sneeze at at lower levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    I finally broke down and got a homebrewer's signature.

    This signature is currently so far out of date that it will loop around to being in date... never.

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    EdroGrimshell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Experimental PrC Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Okay, so a fear class based on the Daunting Presence feat. I can get into that. To start off with this review, let's take a look at the Daunting Presence feat.

    With a few restrictions, Daunting Presence lets you spend a standard action to force a Will save vs shaken. If they fail, shaken applies for 10 minutes. This is pretty significant and great for fear stacking.

    The downsides: Daunting Presence requires the target be within 30 feet, have line of sight (so no using while hidden), and have an Int score. Not awful, as most enemies you'll be fighting are going to meet these requirements.
    Daunting Presence also explicitly does not allow you to affect a creature that is already shaken, a reasonable restriction on the feat. The problem here becomes that you must use Daunting Presence first, or it has no effect at all. You can't even throw the 10 minute duration onto a target that is already shaken. It's a drawback, but it's not too hard to work around.

    The unspoken part is that the shaken condition is inherently a mind-affecting fear effect. So, anything immune to mind-affecting effects or immune to fear is completely immune to this feat. For this class to be effective, it's going to need ways to mitigate or negate those immunities.
    A good analysis of the base feat and one I readily admit is more in depth than what I actually did with it before making the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    I had to read through this carefully three times to make sure I fully understood what's happening here. By my understanding, when using Daunting Presence, you also get a free action Intimidate check to Demoralize Opponent, except that instead of escalating fear, you just increase the penalties from the shaken condition, and then only if they fail both checks, one of which is opposed.

    Also, to demoralize, you have to be within melee range. So, using this ability restricts the distance at which you can use Daunting Presence, which in turn makes the 2nd-level ability to double the range totally incompatible with this ability.

    I guess that's okay. Honestly, it feels very clunky to me. You're going from just forcing a Will save to forcing a Will save, then making a skill check, then forcing a level check. I don't understand why the Intimidate check is necessary or why it has a different result than it normally would. I mean, that extra -2 to saves is useful for further escalation, but this whole effect just feels odd.

    I would either just outright apply the increased penalties to shaken with this effect or allow a more normal Intimidate check as a move or swift action (probably a move action, given the nature of the next ability). It would simplify things anyway.
    You've got a few things wrong, here, actually. One key thing is, this triggers on the use of Daunting Presence and makes an Intimidate check as if to demoralize the target. It's not actually a demoralize, it's a bonus added onto the Daunting Presence to give it a second chance to go through and a way to improve the effects of the fear.

    I admit, this is actually a pretty rushed ability, so I'm going to rewrite it. I think I'll alter it to be reusable, able to increase the penalties greater, which I think will be a better way to cap off the class too.

    Let's see...

    Ominous Presence (Ex): The Cursed may use Daunting Presence on a target that is already Shaken, Frightened, or Panicked (including if they're Cowering), however, instead of the normal effect, if the target fails the save, the penalty for the Shaken, Frightened, or Panicked condition increases by 1, to a maximum increase of 5. At third level, the effects of this ability are doubled (increase the penalty of the shaken condition by 2 instead of 1 and to a maximum of 10). Using this ability resets the duration of Daunting Presence.

    Additionally, the Cursed adds their class level to the Save DC of Daunting Presence and to Intimidate checks made to demoralize a target.

    Makes it more relevant, makes actually using Daunting Presence more often viable against a single target, and makes future abilities a bit easier to fill out. Especially the capstone. Main reason I incorporated the Demoralize was that I felt the class needed a reason to take intimidate, but I think this works out better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Only minor quibbles here. It should be "on up to five targets." Otherwise, a pedantic reading of the rules requires you to have five targets to use the ability.

    This is a good ability, but the wording is a little rough. Maybe try something like, "Starting at 2nd level, the Cursed may use Daunting Presence against a single target as a Swift Action. Additionally, the Cursed may use Daunting Presence as a Standard Action to affect up to 2 targets or as a Full-Round Action to affect up to 5 targets."
    Good points, I'll make the changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    As was pointed out, this ability can get insanely strong insanely quickly. It either needs some sort of cap or some other restriction.

    Frankly, I would change it to be based on the number of targets he has personally afflicted with fear. Maybe something like, "At 3rd level, each time the Cursed causes a creature to become shaken, he gains a +1 morale bonus on Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls, Saving Throws, and Armor Class for 1 minute. Each time the Cursed frightens a new creature while this ability is active, the bonus increases by 1, and the duration restarts; however, frightening the same creature multiple times does not increase the bonus or duration."

    I would still implement some sort of cap to prevent shenanigans.
    With the new first level ability I mentioned above, this actually can be reworked to give the Cursed a bonus equal to the highest penalty from fear effects he's caused for as long as it lasts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Useful capstone. This is what is needed to make this class useful, assuming that your DM rules that being immune to fear due to being immune to mind-affecting effects is still pierced by this. I've seen it ruled both ways with no clear cut rules on how to handle the situation.

    Overall, I like the class. I have issue with the first level ability and see a need for capping the third level one, but it's otherwise pretty good.
    I'll make it so that it works against those immune to Mind Affecting effects, too. Just to clarify it further.
    Last edited by EdroGrimshell; 2017-11-14 at 02:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    You didn't poke fate with a stick. You set fate on fire, then whacked it with a 2x4 several times.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwind1kaze View Post
    good thing they did body attribute instead of Physical attribute, otherwise the stats would look like:

    P. hysical
    M. ind
    S. pirit

    XD

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  5. - Top - End - #95
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    EdroGrimshell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Experimental PrC Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranged Ranger View Post
    Don't know what progress you've already made, but if you're thinking about the connection to the leylines and not the leylines themselves, I'd recommend having them build up - building up faster if they've used that leyline before, a lesser increase if they've used another leyline that ties into the same node(s), and possibly a boost to power if they've preformed a ritual at one of the nodes.
    It's like a Wizard preparing their spellbook, almost. They take an hour to connect to as many Ley Lines as they have access to and utilize what they gain from them (motes) to cast their spells. Note: They don't lose motes for losing access to their Ley Lines, so if they disconnect from all their ley lines, they still can use the motes they have on hand for casting until they can reconnect.

    I also added a mechanic for losing ley lines (every hour spent asleep or in the equivalent, whenever knocked unconscious, or whenever they're dropped below 0hp, they lose one ley line, second level ability makes it so this isn't such a big deal, but still) as well as a maximum number they can use (class level + 1 for every 6 ranks in Knowledge (Nature), so 6 pre-epic level max).

    So yea, Ley Lines are technically done. I just need to set up the pseudo-spells now, which I've split up into small groupings (plant, animal, weather/terrain, purification, and communion) each with a few minor foci (Plant is defensive and passive healing, with some battlefield control; Animal is enhancement and active healing; Weather is resistance to elements and offensive magics; Purification is non-hit point healing and undead/construct/aberration slaying; and Communion is essentially talking with nature and divination).
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    You didn't poke fate with a stick. You set fate on fire, then whacked it with a 2x4 several times.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwind1kaze View Post
    good thing they did body attribute instead of Physical attribute, otherwise the stats would look like:

    P. hysical
    M. ind
    S. pirit

    XD

    Spoiler
    Show


    The Hub, for PTA & PTU community building. If you're interested, take a look.

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