OOTS #994 - The Discussion Thread

[knhaw]

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I think the gods haven't been telling the truth about the Snarl, I expect the following things to come up:
-The planet in the rift
...
-That HPoH knows more about the Snarl than any of the other priests at the Godsmoot...?

Hmmm... What if

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Hel wants to colonize the planet in the Snarl? That'd be a pretty big prize: "You've treated me like garbage for eons. Now I want free reign on this new planet. I claim it as my own. Hands off!" It wouldn't explain the other mysteries of the Snarl (the Snarl attacking Tarquin's troops, Laurin's apparent mind wipe on seeing what's inside, etc) but it would give Hel a very strong motive.

[Anonymouswizard]

If Dwarf does not die fighting, including fighting with liver... then go to Hel afterlife. Durkon is quite clear. Therefore Hel is the god of antiwar/peace.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

Give peace a chance. You don't have to be violent drunkards!

That's explicitly only for the dwarves who worship the Northern Gods, although it is simplest to imagine it applying to other races.

EDIT:

Hmmm... What if

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Hel wants to colonize the planet in the Snarl? That'd be a pretty big prize: "You've treated me like garbage for eons. Now I want free reign on this new planet. I claim it as my own. Hands off!" It wouldn't explain the other mysteries of the Snarl (the Snarl attacking Tarquin's troops, Laurin's apparent mind wipe on seeing what's inside, etc) but it would give Hel a very strong motive.

I like it. Makes perfect sense, and would be in-character.

[hamishspence]

(If "other gods" were different then there would be option to die petting your bunny "with honor and love" rather than destroying the environment killing a tree of the forest)

Maybe that has more to do with dwarven culture? Hel is goddess of "dishonorable death" - currently the dwarves believe that not to die in battle of some kind is dishonorable.

If their culture changes, maybe the subset of "dwarves that go to Hel" changes too?

[Shining Wrath]

From panel #10 onward, Roy is wearing his "I'm thinking about this" face. And he's very accepting of Belkar tracking "Durkon" without permission.

So what I think is happening is Roy is thinking about his talk with V last night as shown in #990 in light of this new information. And he's just got a big red flag that it's not Durkon just a little changed, because the old Durkon was not the sort of person to walk up to an authority figure, challenge them openly, and then whisper in their ear. Add to that the lost accent, the fact that only high priests are allowed into the moot, and his nagging suspicions are likely to suddenly crystallize.

I think Roy is not going to be surprised by the HPoH being announced, if that happens.

EDIT: Not previously mentioned, but HPoH gets a +8 racial bonus to Listen Skill checks, so Belkar had better be rolling well.

[multilis]

Belkar is also a high priest

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"Intruder, he is not a high priest. Kill him!"

"MEOW! Mrrrrrrr. HISSSSSS!!" (Translation: He is high priest of Snarl! Snarl was made by all gods so is member of all pantheons. Destroy him and I destroy you!!)

[Fish]

I'm going to predict Belkar dies here. Why? Because I've never cared so much for Belkar as I do now, and his personal development can't go much further without him threatening a Neutral category.

...Seriously? Your standard for neutral is "likes his cat, sometimes is useful, and doesn't actively try to kill his teammates for XP?"

The thing about your disagreement is we may get an absolute, undeniable, in-comic reason to confirm whether Belkar is still Evil or not: his Protection from Evil brooch. If (or when) Belkar uses the PFE effect and the brooch doesn't burn him, or stops burning him, we'll know Belkar's alignment has changed away from Evil — that, or Belkar has died. I suspect we will see something of the kind.

Not previously mentioned, but HPoH gets a +8 racial bonus to Listen Skill checks, so Belkar had better be rolling well.

HPoH has a high WIS score and could correctly assume that Belkar is following, whether he hears him or not.

[Hazetar]

You will not convince me that Roy acted just like a character he is. I remember this guy as thinking character who plans and thinks about almost everything. He is a leader of this team!

Look, imagine a situation like this. You and your friend go to the bar or some club. Your friend had... Let's say accident or he hurt himself pretty bad lately and his condition is... Unstable, may I say? His actions are somewhat strange in time to time and you see that sometimes he is not acting like he was before.

You dont react when he whispers to somebody ear to get enter to ceritan place or lets say... He threatens pepole to get information?

I just say that Roy is less cunning than before. And it is all for story purpose.

What if Haley was with Roy now or when he and HPoH was trying to find cleric in gnome town? Because of what character she is - she would have thought that something is not right.

Just look how The Giant is playing with the presence of characters. Roy took Belkar to guard Durkon. Belkar. Why not Haley?

Because Haley would immediately notice that something is wrong.

The whole operations with the characters are pretty damn good I must say. The Giant is doing fine work. But some of the situations and behaviour of ceritan characters is... Lets not be harsh here. Odd.

If there will be another casual conversation between Roy and Durkon and he will not start doing anything about strange behaviour of Durkon I say it would be a story and character failure.

But! The story will go on and Durkon will do something which we dont know what will be and it will resolve whole "Durkula thing". The final conclusion of whole Godsmoot pijama party is really near.

#edit
And stop with this whole "Belkar is going to dieee!"
What? You dont like our sexy, shoeless god of war? Give that guy a break! If he is going to die he will do it in big style!

[Emperordaniel]

Wait, if Veldrina was running the whole time, why is the Order still right behind her in the first panel?

[ManuelSacha]

...oh, Hel.

[Shining Wrath]

Wait, if Veldrina was running the whole time, why is the Order still right behind her in the first panel?

For reasons unknown she let Roy and Wrecan go first.

[Jasdoif]

Maybe that has more to do with dwarven culture? Hel is goddess of "dishonorable death" - currently the dwarves believe that not to die in battle of some kind is dishonorable.

If their culture changes, maybe the subset of "dwarves that go to Hel" changes too?

Something along those lines:

Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things. If Haley died of disease, she wouldn't go to Hel because she wouldn't believe that she had been dishonored.

[Peelee]

You will not convince me that Roy acted just like a character he is. I remember this guy as thinking character who plans and thinks about almost everything. He is a leader of this team!

Look, imagine a situation like this. You and your friend go to the bar or some club. Your friend had... Let's say accident or he hurt himself pretty bad lately and his condition is... Unstable, may I say? His actions are somewhat strange in time to time and you see that sometimes he is not acting like he was before.

You dont react when he whispers to somebody ear to get enter to ceritan place or lets say... He threatens pepole to get information?

I just say that Roy is less cunning than before. And it is all for story purpose.

I was not aware that you were larger authority on the characters than the author who has been writing them for ten years.

On a side note, who did the vampire openly threaten in front of Roy to get information?

[Ezekiel]

I was not aware that you were larger authority on the characters than the author who has been writing them for ten years.

On a side note, who did the vampire openly threaten in front of Roy to get information?

He tried to get info out of the head cleric of Hoder's temple but wasn't able to until the acolyte gave him the info that he needed.

[Bulldog Psion]

You will not convince me that Roy acted just like a character he is. I remember this guy as thinking character who plans and thinks about almost everything. He is a leader of this team!

People get blindsided by stuff, events get away from them, and they don't always have time to react.

Again, what could Roy do here? If he attacks, the Godsmoot's defenders will likely -- or, should I say, certainly -- assist the HPoH in putting him down. If he shouts out "that's not Durkon!" the HPoH can just turn around and say, "Yes, I'm not. I'm the High Priest of Hel and I have been invited to participate in this Godsmoot. You are no longer my security detail. Guards! Remove these two from the Godsmoot, they no longer have the right to be here!"

Most likely, he's confused and doesn't have enough information to go by. He still hasn't given in fully to his suspicions, he likely still has some hope it's "good old Durkon" after all, and he just doesn't know what to do. Other than exactly what he is doing -- continuing to watch, gathering information, and hoping he can eventually see a way to resolve the situation positively.

[Peelee]

He tried to get info out of the head cleric of Hoder's temple but wasn't able to until the acolyte gave him the info that he needed.

Vampire: "None on yer staff? Do you know any clerics na on yer staff that might be powerful enough to cast it?"
Cleric: "Uh, what do you..."
Vampire: "Mebbe someone who was just passin' thru? Someone we could catch up wit?"

You seem to have a very broad definition of "threaten."

And yes, I know you aren't the original poster.

[Basement Cat]

And Belkar's character development continues: First he empathized with the two gladiators being forced to fight one another (picturing his and Mr. Scruffy's heads on the two people's bodies, in fact).

--then he showed remorse for Durkon sacrificing his life to save Belkar's own.

--then he acted like he was unwilling to take (further) advantage of the cute gnome lady who sold him the "broken" protection from evil brooch.

Now Belkar is showing concern for complete strangers! Granted his concern may be less than fluffy-bunny-goody-two-shoes pure but his showing concern for anyone besides Mr. Scruffy and the polymorphed T. Rex (whose name escapes me) is--for Belkar--a major step towards empathizing with and caring for others.

If Belkar isn't careful then a year or two of such behavior could turn him to the Light Side!

Fortunately, for those of us who love the little psychopath for himself he only has two weeks or so (in universe) to live.

Whew!!!

I like Roy's expression when Durkon is permitted to join. His doubts about Durkon must be skyrocketing, now.

I wonder if the REVEAL will be as simple as Darkula standing up in the conclave and revealing himself before everyone. Simple, logical, and heart breaking for Roy, to be sure.

Particularly if one of the other priests reveals to Roy and friends that Durkon's soul is entrapped by the evil HPoH within his own body/corpse.

P.S. Kudos to the Giant for bringing Roy's Knowledge: Architecture forward.

[hamishspence]

his showing concern for anyone besides Mr. Scruffy and the polymorphed T. Rex (whose name escapes me) is--for Belkar--a major step towards empathizing with and caring for others.

The allosaurus, Belkar calls "Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html

[Forealms]

I'm really, really hoping the HPoH straight tells everyone there (including Roy and Co) who and what he is. If Hel is also interested in preserving the gods, it would be a very interesting dynamic to see the OotS have to work with him to achieve their own goals. Especially if he is privy to information that none of the rest of them have, perhaps regarding the Dark One/Crimson Mantle/Redcloak.

[FlawedParadigm]

Seriously? Why the belief every time Belkar does anything that "this is the end for our halfling sociopath"?

Being fair, I've mentioned this a LOT less than some other people. Normally Belkar gets this any time he does something even mildly dangerous, and the only other time I mentioned it as a maybe was the strip before Mass Death Ward - and lots of people were speculating it then, because Rich made it look like the end.

My reasoning here is that Belkar now knows something ("goddess") that shows, for a fact, that "Durkon" is up to something not kosher. He doesn't quite have enough evidence to be 100% convincing, but he probably is about to get that. However, I am fairly sure it is too soon from a narrative perspective for Durkula's cover to be blown. Belkar's spent the entire book so far preparing for a conflict with Durkula - the brooch, the new dagger, the vest of resistance. It may not be immediately, but unless he goes unnoticed by Durkula the entire time, and manages to report back to Roy without Durkula's knowledge, I'm still willing to believe at this point that Belkar would be the next most likely named character to die. Durkula's already shown himself to be willing to try to off Belkar (making him jump overboard the airship) for any reason that might blow his cover.

I could even see Durkula making a thrall of him and convincing Roy that Belkar is safer this way and less likely to do something stupid to jeopardise the party's success.

[SaintRidley]

Since Durkon's accent is not natural for the High Priest of Hel but an affectation designed to better deceive the living, the Circle of Truth (which may be based on Zone of Truth but modified to not be Mind-Affecting and thus useless against undead) forced him to speak in his natural accent.

Also, grammar thing in panel 7 - should be "high priest of each Northern God" or "high priest of each of the Northern Gods" rather than "high priest of each of Northern Gods."

[Hazetar]

I was not aware that you were larger authority on the characters than the author who has been writing them for ten years.

My authority is on the level of reader that been visiting this website since year 2007. I think this allows my subjective opinion to keep the discusion going and point out some of strange things I noticed from my own perspective.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

You seem to have a very broad definition of "threaten."

I assume it's my lack of knowledge about ceritan meanings of words in english language. I chose word "Threaten" because I thought it would describe action of HPoH well.

People get blindsided by stuff, events get away from them, and they don't always have time to react.

Again, what could Roy do here? If he attacks, the Godsmoot's defenders will likely -- or, should I say, certainly -- assist the HPoH in putting him down. If he shouts out "that's not Durkon!" the HPoH can just turn around and say, "Yes, I'm not. I'm the High Priest of Hel and I have been invited to participate in this Godsmoot. You are no longer my security detail. Guards! Remove these two from the Godsmoot, they no longer have the right to be here!"

Most likely, he's confused and doesn't have enough information to go by. He still hasn't given in fully to his suspicions, he likely still has some hope it's "good old Durkon" after all, and he just doesn't know what to do. Other than exactly what he is doing -- continuing to watch, gathering information, and hoping he can eventually see a way to resolve the situation positively.

I appreciate your concern about this matter but I never wrote in my post that Roy should attack HPoH. You explained your point of view very well and I think you are right about ceritan things. I just find reactions of Roy very odd and I noticed The Giant's "shenanigans" of party placement in certain events.

[gerryq]

Excellent loophole: I may have to tell the truth in this circle, but I can still whisperwhisperwhisper...

Hel's endgame is very hard to guess. After all, HPOH is actually invited and welcome to the Godsmoot, and he simply hitched the easiest ride he could find. Maybe there isn't a hidden motive after all? That would be some major trolling from Giant!

It seems like he is entering perfectly legitimately. But... somehow it's all gonna end in blood and drama, I'm fairly sure. Episode #1000 is coming up! That episode will not be a quiet one.

[hroþila]

Personally, I think that if Not-Durkon's allegiance to Hel is found out, all he'd need to do is put together a soapy story about how Thor rejected him merely for his vampirism and only Hel would listen to his prayers now. Roy has no reason to believe Hel is particularly problematic beyond being an Evil deity, and being Evil is the first thing Not-Durkon admitted to.

[Once a Fool]

No evidence by same logic in sword of good story either, what do you expect from warmonger propaganda?

The rest of gods by same logic also "do not accept but instead claim souls".

What logic? I was asserting no such thing. I didn't mention other gods or their worshippers, at all.

I was merely pointing out that, according to all of the information that we have, Hel does collect unwilling souls--sometimes, by claiming them (and, incidentally, we have seen Thor claim at least one). Further, we have absolutely no evidence that she collects willing ones.

Indeed, we have been shown no evidence that Hel loves, at all. None. Any interpretation otherwise, for either of these points, is simply a projection on the part of the interpreter--and one that is wholly unsupported by the comic.

Do you deny that the northern gods are warmongers who only accept those who die fighting? (Including drunkards who abuse their livers?) Would a person of peace and love have a place in their afterlife?

You seem to have me confused with someone who was arguing those points. In fact, your questions are unrelated to my words. But, since your questions seem to hinge upon it, why do you make a connection between peace (by which, it seems you mean, specifically, "lack of violent conflict") and love? Is one necessary to the other? That's quite an assumption, isn't it?

Warmongers need war to fill their afterlife, Hel needs peace, enough said.

This is a valid point, at least if you discount that that "peace" comes in the form of disease (and the suffering that comes with it).

(Another example of the battle to end war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeqNPAb4frk)

Why do you keep trying to support your points about a fictional comic by referencing unrelated materials? The only material that is relevant to discussion of the comic is the comic, itself.

[Peelee]

My authority is on the level of reader that been visiting this website since year 2007. I think this allows my subjective opinion to keep the discusion going and point out some of strange things I noticed from my own perspective.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Ah; no worries then. I do still disagree with your conclusion that Roy is acting differently, but I withdraw my objection based on experience with the material.

I assume it's my lack of knowledge about ceritan meanings of words in english language. I chose word "Threaten" because I thought it would describe action of HPoH well.

I take your point. I would likewise still disagree that this was in any way threatening, though the intensity with which he followed it up may have raised an eyebrow for Roy.

[chrestomancy]

The thing about your disagreement is we may get an absolute, undeniable, in-comic reason to confirm whether Belkar is still Evil or not:

I wouldn't deny that Belkar is still evil, just slightly less evil! In my opinion, he's not on the Sauron/Cruella DeVille offspring scale by this point. He's closer to Neutral than any of the antagonists (Nale, Thog, Sabine or even Laurin, Pompey or Leaky) at this point. It could be wishful thinking though, time and the story will no doubt tell.

We've not seen him perform casual acts of murder in a long time, at least as far as real time is concerned (that might still only be weeks in-comic time, however!). That's not necessarily because he is having a real shift in attitude, it may just be he's not had the opportunity, as well as he knows the Order don't like it when he breaks their own definitions of morality.

I keep thinking back to the codeword for the Greater Mark of Justice - Evolve or Die. It was fitting at the time, but in the context of the prophecy, I wonder about it as a description for Belkar's life path. Meh, I know nothing, I don't want an argument, and time will tell.

[Jay R]

I just say that Roy is less cunning than before.

That argument would be more compelling if he hadn't brought Belkar along specifically because he isn't sure if he can trust the HPoH.

[ti'esar]

Wow, the tension is really building in this one. We've crossed a point of no-return for the HPoH: either he kills Belkar (which I really doubt is going to happen here), or his secret is almost certainly going to come out.

Personally, I suspect he's actually expecting it to at this point. Even if Roy hasn't yet started putting the pieces together - and from his behavior here I'm pretty sure he has - he'll be in the gallery overlooking the moot. And since the HPoH has used his status to gain admission, then I doubt he'll be able to keep it a secret once he's in there.

Still no clues what his plan is, though.

Also, I'm interested by Wrecan's readiness to mistrust the vampire. It's not the first time he's said as much; is he just being cautious or does he have some specific experience here? As a tribute character, I dunno how much of a backstory he has, but it's a point of characterization that has come up a couple of times now.

Also also, Veldrina is adorable. (That's not really relevant to anything, but I haven't seen anyone else mention it yet).

[Fish]

I wouldn't deny that Belkar is still evil, just slightly less evil!

No argument from me. However, if Belkar's alignment is in flux at some future date, the use of his PTE brooch will be our indicator.

[Bulldog Psion]

I appreciate your concern about this matter but I never wrote in my post that Roy should attack HPoH. You explained your point of view very well and I think you are right about ceritan things. I just find reactions of Roy very odd and I noticed The Giant's "shenanigans" of party placement in certain events.

I realize you didn't mention attacking, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

However, you seem to be expecting Roy to do something other than he is doing. At this point, though, what, specifically, can he do?

He can't detain the HPoH -- it would immediately start a fight if he attempted to do so.

He can attack, but he's certain to lose.

He can say something, but what can he say that will alter the situation, particularly since he has almost zero information about what is going on? "Wait up there, priest, I think you, uh, shouldn't let this dwarf into the Godsmoot because, um, well, I have a bad feeling about it"? That would accomplish nothing but to get him excluded, making him even more helpless to change the outcome.

He can just turn around and leave, but in that case, he's giving up the possibility that Durkon really is looking to get resurrected, and discarding any information they might gain at the Godsmoot, also.

So I guess I'm curious.

What do you think Roy should do?

I'm actually kind of hoping that you have some interesting idea that I've overlooked , that would be different from what currently looks like his best option -- tagging along and hoping everything turns out okay, or to help intervene if something ghastly happens, or at least that they will gain something (information, etc.) from whatever happens.