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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Optimizing Your Backstory, TheOneHawk's Guide to Traits and Drawbacks.

    So Tips and Traits is a great trait guide for Pathfinder that I've used many times. Unfortunately, it's now very out of date and as far as I can tell there is no other trait guide. That's just unacceptable, so I've taken it in to my own hands. So far I just have the combat traits done, but I'm looking for any advice and critique's on, well, anything to do with the guide. Hopefully when this is done it'll help some people out.

    Link
    Last edited by TheOneHawk; 2016-05-27 at 05:05 PM.

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    Mehangel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    In response to Cooperative Combatant and Battlefield Disciple, there are specific classes such as Path of War 2: Zealot who utilizes the Aid Another action to recover maneuvers; or Path of War 1: Warlord who can already add a huge bonus on Aid Another as it is. So while not an optimal choice, there are statistical outliers in particular builds that granting a +2 bonus to the Aid Another might be worth thinking about. Not saying that there aren't more effective traits, or that the trait needs to be bumped up to an orange, but rather, that to specific builds, it might be an orange.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    I haven't read PoW expanded yet, so I wasn't aware of it. I'll look at those later and maybe bump them up, or at least add a comment about that potential synergy.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Updated the guide with the Equipment traits and commented on the Zealot and Warlord having synergy with Aid Another in combat.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    What are your thoughts on the Domineering trait?

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Haven't gotten there, yet, but I think it has its uses. It definitely has to be used on a spell that remains useful throughout a campaign. Domineering (Sleep) is useless past level 4. Domineering (Charm Person) is useful forever. That said, it's likely a sub-optimal choice on anyone except a dedicated enchanter, and the dedicated enchanter probably doesn't really need it.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Whew, dodged a bullet there.

    What are your thoughts on Spark of Creation? Would the +1 to Craft also apply to Spellcraft when crafting magic/psionic items? If so that trait seems crazy good.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    I'd say probably not on the Craft bonus applying to Spellcraft, but you would have to ask your DM on that. Regardless, I don't think it's a particularly powerful trait simply because you still need to get the item creation feats, which are basically selling your feat slots for gold. I don't like them, personally, but some do. Generally speaking, however, the average power of a trait is half of a feat. An item creation feat gives you 50% off of buying items of that kind, assuming you are able to make them yourself. Spark of creation gives 5% of creating those items, or one tenth of the bonus of a feat.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    What about the commercial savvy trait then?

    Also for Item Creation feats have you considered obtaining or crafting a Map of the Mind if you're playing a psionic character? With that you could craft any kind of Item while only needing to spend a single feat. Just switch between the different types when you want to make something new. ;)

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    I don't like Commercial Savvy for the same reason as Dealmaker. Copied from the guide: "This is unlikely to come up very often, and while it might save you some travel time, thatís all it really does since you can usually just go to a larger city."

    These traits also generally completely lose all value as soon as your party gets access to long range teleportation. Town's too small to buy the item you want? Teleport to a bigger city then teleport back. If you're in town all day you don't need those spell slot's anyways.

    I'm not familiar with the Map of the Mind. Link?

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Ah ****. I completely misread that trait. I thought it let you sell and buy stuff for better prices like the Dusk Merchants trait.

    Edit:
    I can't find it online but its in the Item section of Ultimate Psionics. Its basically Psychic Reformation that can only be used once a week no matter who uses it and with no option of removing the negative side effects. I was able to get it for free simply by asking the GM politely since the Psychic Reformation power is so stupidly overpowered.

    It also has more fluff than Psychic Reformation. It explains the ability to change your feats/skills/powers with the map literally being a map of your mind with alterations you make on the map causing alterations in yourself.
    Last edited by Unbodied; 2015-07-24 at 07:37 AM.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    So Tips and Traits is a great trait guide for Pathfinder that I've used many times. Unfortunately, it's now very out of date and as far as I can tell there is no other trait guide. That's just unacceptable, so I've taken it in to my own hands.
    I really appreciate you doing this by the way. I didnít realize how much stuff I was missing because of the old guide.

    Like Bruising Intellect and Clever Wordplay. Those are perfect for a Forgeborn brutal disruptor. Now the Intimidate class feature actually becomes possible to use.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    That's exactly why I'm doing it. I was DMing a game and I saw a trait I didn't recognize, so I looked at the traits on D20PFSRD and was absolutely blown away how many weren't in Tips and Traits. It's a great guide, but damn it's out of date.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    That's exactly why I'm doing it. I was DMing a game and I saw a trait I didn't recognize, so I looked at the traits on D20PFSRD and was absolutely blown away how many weren't in Tips and Traits. It's a great guide, but damn it's out of date.
    If there's anything I can do to help let me know, though I'm not sure how much help I would be. I'm still really new at this.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    Haven't gotten there, yet, but I think it has its uses. It definitely has to be used on a spell that remains useful throughout a campaign. Domineering (Sleep) is useless past level 4. Domineering (Charm Person) is useful forever. That said, it's likely a sub-optimal choice on anyone except a dedicated enchanter, and the dedicated enchanter probably doesn't really need it.
    Does the Born Under the Green Star trait (+1 CL on Mind Affecting) seem worthwhile for a partially telepathy based character? Or is that also redundant?
    Last edited by Unbodied; 2015-07-26 at 02:39 AM.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    The main issue with mind-affecting is how much stuff is immune to it. Solid pick on an Enchanter, but it's quite campaign and character dependent. A lot of DM's might deny that particular trait as well, since it's from People of the Stars, which is designed for interplanetary Pathfinder. Most Pathfinder games don't possess that level of technology.

    As far as helping, just commenting on stuff and being interested helps keep me focused. There's a lot of guide left to write and I'm sure I'll realize how foolish this endeavour is quickly. I may also include third party traits, eventually. One step at a time, though.
    Last edited by TheOneHawk; 2015-07-24 at 10:57 AM.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Attacked by space pirates?! Seriously!? XD
    Who on earth came up with that? XD

    Good work on the list, its a lot longer than the last time I checked it. Are there any traits you are or had trouble with that you would like a second opinion on?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    The main issue with mind-affecting is how much stuff is immune to it. Solid pick on an Enchanter, but it's quite campaign and character dependent. A lot of DM's might deny that particular trait as well, since it's from People of the Stars, which is designed for interplanetary Pathfinder. Most Pathfinder games don't possess that level of technology.
    I figure the fluff can easily be altered to fit our campaign world, the character just needs to have been born in a place with lots of psychic energy. Since I'm playing an Elan that's pretty easy.

    What are your thoughts on the Tireless Logic trait?

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    I think Tireless Logic is completely outclassed by Inspired, to the point of irrelevance.

    I'd like a second opinion on every trait. Anything you see that I missed a potential application of, feel free to either leave a comment in the sheet or just post here. I'll consider any opinions, and potentially alter ratings and descriptions based on it.

    Faith traits are complete, including our first 2 purple traits!

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    I think Tireless Logic is completely outclassed by Inspired, to the point of irrelevance.

    I'd like a second opinion on every trait. Anything you see that I missed a potential application of, feel free to either leave a comment in the sheet or just post here. I'll consider any opinions, and potentially alter ratings and descriptions based on it.

    Faith traits are complete, including our first 2 purple traits!
    Holy boop that's a good trait!

    On the other hand it doesn't suit the character the way Tireless Logic does.

    I'll take a look at things and see if there's anything that seems strange.

    Edit:
    "Family Traits
    These are all terrible."

    Agreed. Such a shame, it could have been the perfect example of what traits are all about. :(
    Last edited by Unbodied; 2015-07-26 at 04:38 AM.

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    Tuvarkz's Avatar

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    You should probably include whatever deity is requisite for each faith/religion trait. While not listed on the pfsrd, they all should be on archives of nethys

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuvarkz View Post
    You should probably include whatever deity is requisite for each faith/religion trait. While not listed on the pfsrd, they all should be on archives of nethys
    Oh yeah completely agree with this. I'm not sure if they should be listed in alphabetical order with the name of the deity by the side or if they should be grouped together under their respective deities like the old guide did. The former is better for people who saw a trait listed on pfsrd and want to see what other people think of it while the latter is useful for people who want to worship a specific deity or type of deity. Maybe also add the gods alignments next to their name?

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    I'd like a second opinion on every trait. Anything you see that I missed a potential application of, feel free to either leave a comment in the sheet or just post here. I'll consider any opinions, and potentially alter ratings and descriptions based on it.
    Power of Suggestion seems really underrated. I've left most of my commentary there.

    Edit:
    Can you see my comments? I can't see any comments from anyone else and there's a Join Chat (you will no longer be anonymous) button that makes me wonder if I'm the only one that can see my comments.
    Last edited by Unbodied; 2015-07-25 at 07:24 AM.

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    NightbringerGGZ's Avatar

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    The main issue with mind-affecting is how much stuff is immune to it. Solid pick on an Enchanter, but it's quite campaign and character dependent. A lot of DM's might deny that particular trait as well, since it's from People of the Stars, which is designed for interplanetary Pathfinder. Most Pathfinder games don't possess that level of technology.

    As far as helping, just commenting on stuff and being interested helps keep me focused. There's a lot of guide left to write and I'm sure I'll realize how foolish this endeavour is quickly. I may also include third party traits, eventually. One step at a time, though.
    I'd note that there are classes in Occult Adventures (particularly the Mesmerist and the Psychic) which will be able to use mind-affecting abilities on normally immune creatures. As their spells lists have a strong focus on enchantment, it isn't a horrible trait for them.

    Btw, have you considered organizing your list by themes? For instance, traits which are excellent for specific classes, traits which allow you to use alternate attribute scores, traits which grant class skills AND a bonus (a surprising number of traits only give you the class skill).

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ View Post
    I'd note that there are classes in Occult Adventures (particularly the Mesmerist and the Psychic) which will be able to use mind-affecting abilities on normally immune creatures. As their spells lists have a strong focus on enchantment, it isn't a horrible trait for them.
    How would you rate it for the Ascendant Psion archetype? Yay or nay?

    I'm going to be playing in a city setting so there's likely to be a lot of humanoid encounters. I don't think those are immune to Mind Affecting most of the time?
    Last edited by Unbodied; 2015-07-25 at 09:27 AM.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuvarkz View Post
    You should probably include whatever deity is requisite for each faith/religion trait. While not listed on the pfsrd, they all should be on archives of nethys
    I'm not sure how Archives of Nethys has permission to display that, but I'm pretty sure the gods are copyrighted material, which is why they're not on the SRD and why they are currently not in my guide. That said, I could be completely wrong and they're free to show, but unless I'm sure I'm not infringing on any copyrights, I'm not going to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbodied View Post
    Power of Suggestion seems really underrated. I've left most of my commentary there.

    Edit:
    Can you see my comments? I can't see any comments from anyone else and there's a Join Chat (you will no longer be anonymous) button that makes me wonder if I'm the only one that can see my comments.
    I can see your comments, I'll respond to them all there. The only person who can see everyone's comments is me.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ View Post
    I'd note that there are classes in Occult Adventures (particularly the Mesmerist and the Psychic) which will be able to use mind-affecting abilities on normally immune creatures. As their spells lists have a strong focus on enchantment, it isn't a horrible trait for them.

    Btw, have you considered organizing your list by themes? For instance, traits which are excellent for specific classes, traits which allow you to use alternate attribute scores, traits which grant class skills AND a bonus (a surprising number of traits only give you the class skill).
    I would like to, yes, but first let me get through all the traits on a first pass before I start doing anything more ambitious.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Just did a quick skim for now.
    Unblemished Barrel: ... it takes you only 30 minutes to remove the broken condition from a firearm. It only takes six seconds to cast Mending. Very skippable.
    It actually takes 10 Minutes to cast Mending.
    Still a pretty horrible trait, but not nearly as worthless as thought (and Mending is still a Cantrip/Orison, so it only costs time).

    Heirloom Weapon:
    The 'fluff' text is actually a vital part of the Trait. Should note that it can only be used with a Simple or Martial weapon (Exotic shenanigans got errata'd away).
    Can also potentially be useful to give a Martial Proficiency to a "simples only" class. Still doesn't change it's rating though.

    General Suggestion:
    For strictly better/mostly better traits, should list the better versions under the worst version.
    "Easy Way or the Hard Way" should list "Weapon of Peace" and "Blade of Mercy" (religious trait) as better options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbodied View Post
    Oh yeah completely agree with this. I'm not sure if they should be listed in alphabetical order with the name of the deity by the side or if they should be grouped together under their respective deities like the old guide did.
    Alphabetical order.
    People can always just use ctrl+F to search for specific deities.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2015-07-25 at 12:00 PM.
    [currently semi-retired from the forums

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    I can't use google Doc on my phone so I'm responding here. The old trait guide has a link to the old Family Heirloom trait in the commentary on the new one.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...d.ozp8vjudu27u

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Just found a trait that I'm pretty sure isn't on dpsr. Does anyone know if this trait can be used in regular play? Seems like its from some advanced origins book.

    http://www.pfsdb.com/traits/scion-of-the-shory

    Category Region
    Requirement(s) Mwangi Expanse
    The blood of a Shory aeromancer flows through your veins. You gain a +2 bonus on concentration checks when casting flight spells such as levitate, fly, or overland flight. Once per day, you can use message as a spell-like ability.


    On a slightly different note what do people think of the Psigifted trait? It let's you pick one power you know (so it should be 1st lv unless you get it via Additional Traits) and your effective Manifester Level for that power increases by 1.

    Edit:
    Also how do these Ophiduan and Xeph traits sound? The snake people get Infiltrator which gives +1 Bluff and Diplomacy against non-ophiduans (most everyone in most campaigns) and Sense Motive as a class skill. The Xeph get +1 to bypass power/spell resistance, oh and Soulknives get a +2 to make mind blades inside null psionic fields I guess.
    Last edited by Unbodied; 2015-07-25 at 02:30 PM.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Just did a quick skim for now.


    It actually takes 10 Minutes to cast Mending.
    Still a pretty horrible trait, but not nearly as worthless as thought (and Mending is still a Cantrip/Orison, so it only costs time).

    Heirloom Weapon:
    The 'fluff' text is actually a vital part of the Trait. Should note that it can only be used with a Simple or Martial weapon (Exotic shenanigans got errata'd away).
    Can also potentially be useful to give a Martial Proficiency to a "simples only" class. Still doesn't change it's rating though.

    General Suggestion:
    For strictly better/mostly better traits, should list the better versions under the worst version.
    "Easy Way or the Hard Way" should list "Weapon of Peace" and "Blade of Mercy" (religious trait) as better options.



    Alphabetical order.
    People can always just use ctrl+F to search for specific deities.
    Thanks. I agree with traits that have strictly better versions elsewhere having them listed, I'm planning on adding that after the first pass, though.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    It's a very small section, but Family Traits are done. I love the caveat that you can take more than one of these particular type of traits. If you REALLY want to waste your traits, take two of these trashy ones instead of one! Thanks Paizo!!!

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    It's a very small section, but Family Traits are done. I love the caveat that you can take more than one of these particular type of traits. If you REALLY want to waste your traits, take two of these trashy ones instead of one! Thanks Paizo!!!
    Got an email from Paizo. They said to tell you that you're welcome and that they wrote that specifically to annoy you.

    On a different tack I'm still not sure about the rating for Power of Suggestion so I'd like some third or fourth opinions.


    Power of Suggestion
    People trust your words over their own eyes.


    Benefit: You may make a Bluff check to make observers believe that an object in your possession is actually a different object entirely. The DC for the check is 20 for items of a similar size, shape, and color (such as a glaive and a quarterstaff). Items of a different shape, size, or color raise the DC by 5 for each dissimilar aspect, or more if the dissimilarity is extreme. This deception lasts 1 minute; if the item is still in view, the observers may recognize their error unless you make another bluff check.

    http://www.outfit4events.com/runtime...mo_3552-01.JPG
    This is a glaive

    http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/...20130731032728
    And this is a quarterstaff

    These are considered similar enough in shape, size and color that the DC for the Bluff check is 20. The flavor text states that people trust your words more than they do their own eyes and the power is called Power of Suggestion. It seems to me that both by the rules as written and the rules as intended this Trait should let you trick people into believing all sorts of crazy bovine excrement. Sure it won't let you trick people into thinking something smells or tastes differently but there's still a ton of fun stuff that should be possible to do with this (cheat at all the card games!). Tricking people into thinking that a glaive is actually a quarterstaff is already so utterly unbelievable that I don't see how the GM can have a lot of ground to stand on to mandate that people aren't stupid enough to fall for it. Its clearly intended to make people believe the unbelievable.

    At the very least I think it deserves a double colored shading like the old guide had on the Dusk Agent trait. Maybe have it be Power of Suggestion and add a note that you should consult your GM before picking it to see how far they're willing to let you take it.

    Edit:
    It also specifies that the deception lasts one minute. As long as you can get the item out of view before then they can't recognize their error, at least if I'm reading that correctly which I'm pretty sure I am. If you sold a shiny orange rock to someone and told them it was a Orange Prism one minute should be plenty of time to get the heck out of dodge, very useful if you have Disguise, illusions, shapeshifting or other methods of ensuring that the fuzz gets the wrong description of the criminal.
    Last edited by Unbodied; 2015-07-26 at 07:34 AM.

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