An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time! *golf clap*

[Traab]

I think a part of this huge disparity is confirmation bias in action. When you have a conclusion and want to prove it, everything can be interpreted to do so. Mato believes sexism is a major theme of the story, therefore he interprets events along those lines. You do not see it as sexism, therefore you see a different interpretation of events.

And yes, the whole gender disparity thing in writing where the term "man" or "he" can be gender specific, or neutral, while terms like she or women are gender specific only does seem to lend itself to putting an unfortunate emphasis on things. If I said this knowledge was not meant for man to know, your first thought would be I meant man as in mankind, or humanity. If I said, this knowledge was not meant for woman to know, then the first inference you will jump to is this is something only females arent supposed to know, and men can learn it just fine. Obviously there are exceptions and context rules over all. So, "The secret of what goes on in the bathroom when a half dozen women go together is not meant for man to know" is clearly gender specific. A tribe of amazons who have never even heard of the male gender saying that there is forbidden knowledge not meant for women to know would be speaking as a generic "noone" instead of only those lacking dangly bits between their legs not being allowed to know it

[Kitten Champion]

I think we should hold back on arguing about the series as a whole too deeply. Even with spoiler tags there's a lot of points which are leaking out that for someone not even past the proverbial tutorial stage is kind of pushing the borders of respectfulness.

[Anteros]

I think we should hold back on arguing about the series as a whole too deeply. Even with spoiler tags there's a lot of points which are leaking out that for someone not even past the proverbial tutorial stage is kind of pushing the borders of respectfulness.

I agree and I'll stop. It would be fine if we were all using the spoiler tags properly, but we (myself included) keep letting things leak out. Even minor spoilers are probably inappropriate.

[Mato]

One thing I'd like to leave on the trailing end of the argument, not a final word to stubborn's sake, but as a last minute consideration to inspire for the better.

Positive Discrimination is a very real thing and can be unintentionally triggered without knowing otherwise.

[Psyren]

I suspect it's his representation of the duality of spiritual energies between the sexes as appears in a number of metaphysical constructs throughout the world.

Here and here for instance, seems the biggest inspiration.

The fact that patriarchy is firmly entrenched in any number of the real-world spiritual influences that a fantasy author can draw from is not really an excuse - as the architect of his world, he ultimately has the final say in how its magic works, and can change any parts of it he wants. He could have for instance made it so that the specific method the channelers use to establish links - the ones they've all been trained to do and passed on for generations - are what require men to play a dominant role, but have the truth be that there are actually multiple ways to wield the Source in general, just as there are multiple weaves to achieve the same goal.

And to be clear, I'm not saying he can't port the patriarchy itself into his world. After all, if there were no systemic injustice in the story at all, there'd be no way to examine that particular conflict through the lens of speculative fiction. But when he has the cosmos itself enforcing said injustice, and decreeing from on high that Yes, men being innately stronger and more dominant/aggressive and leading circles is the Right Way To Do Things, then there is no examination going on there, just falling back on bad habits for bad habits' sake.

[lord_khaine]

This is perhaps not the right place to have such a spoiler filled discussion?
Especially not one that reveals so many things about how the world works?

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Not to mention i disagree about said universe enforcing some sort of grand injustice, to start with i dont remember anything at all about men needing to lead circles, or it being proposed as the way to do things.
For that matter i dont recall anything being said specifically in the books about men being more dominant agressive, and it does seem like the biggest advantage of female channelers, being actually able to link, is being glossed over.

[Traab]

This is perhaps not the right place to have such a spoiler filled discussion?
Especially not one that reveals so many things about how the world works?

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Not to mention i disagree about said universe enforcing some sort of grand injustice, to start with i dont remember anything at all about men needing to lead circles, or it being proposed as the way to do things.
For that matter i dont recall anything being said specifically in the books about men being more dominant agressive, and it does seem like the biggest advantage of female channelers, being actually able to link, is being glossed over.

I honestly thought

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it was less men being in charge and more, "We need men who can channel to form larger circles" But then, it has been a very long time since I read the books where this started happening. I own up to book 8, but rarely read past books 4,5 and 6, so men channeling is still fairly new and horribly surprising when it happens. So maybe there was some bit of info I forgot about how you need the men for larger circles, but then the men are the ones who control the flow of power or whatever.

[Zaydos]

I honestly thought

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it was less men being in charge and more, "We need men who can channel to form larger circles" But then, it has been a very long time since I read the books where this started happening. I own up to book 8, but rarely read past books 4,5 and 6, so men channeling is still fairly new and horribly surprising when it happens. So maybe there was some bit of info I forgot about how you need the men for larger circles, but then the men are the ones who control the flow of power or whatever.

I haven't re-read the books since Jordan died but what I remember was about the same.

[Seerow]

I honestly thought

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it was less men being in charge and more, "We need men who can channel to form larger circles" But then, it has been a very long time since I read the books where this started happening. I own up to book 8, but rarely read past books 4,5 and 6, so men channeling is still fairly new and horribly surprising when it happens. So maybe there was some bit of info I forgot about how you need the men for larger circles, but then the men are the ones who control the flow of power or whatever.

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Referencing the Wiki here:

A circle of women can go up to 13. Men cannot link at all without a woman to help form the link. With a group of men and women combined you can get up to 72 members. The most lopsided a circle gets is 26 women and 1 man, after which point you need to add one new man every extra woman (so you can get to 48 women and 24 men as the most imbalanced full circle), but the most powerful circles are the ones most balanced (apparently at 35 men and 37 women, according to the wiki).

A man must lead if the circle has seventy-two members, if the circle has only one man or one woman, or if it is a circle fewer than thirteen members with more than one man. Except for these combinations, a woman must lead when there is a minimum number of men. Outside these conditions, either gender may lead.

So basically there are situations in which men must lead, and situations in which women must lead, and a much larger number where anyone can lead. It's convoluted and kind of weird, but probably the most sexist notion in any of it is that two men can't work together without a woman to bring them together.

[Anteros]

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I don't understand why people can't just let the magic system be the magic system and instead have to look for discrimination where none was intended. When you break the magic system down along gender lines there are bound to be some differences between the two.

[The_Snark]

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I don't understand why people can't just let the magic system be the magic system and instead have to look for discrimination where none was intended. When you break the magic system down along gender lines there are bound to be some differences between the two.

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The fact that the author chose to break the magic system down along gender lines invites commentary on the subject. I don't necessarily agree with everything that's been said about the implications of the One Power being divided into fundamentally different male and female aspects, but asserting that this division doesn't mean anything seems odd to me. Gender roles, sexism and the examination thereof are recurring themes in this series; why would it suddenly stop when it comes to the (significant) role of gender in magic?

[Anteros]

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The fact that the author chose to break the magic system down along gender lines invites commentary on the subject. I don't necessarily agree with everything that's been said about the implications of the One Power being divided into fundamentally different male and female aspects, but asserting that this division doesn't mean anything seems odd to me. Gender roles, sexism and the examination thereof are recurring themes in this series; why would it suddenly stop when it comes to the (significant) role of gender in magic?

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Commentary and discussion would be fine. Extreme over analyzing of every tiny detail looking for an excuse to act offended simply because an author dared to make the genders different is not.

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 14: The Stag and Lion
I know this book was written years before A Game of Thrones, but the title of this chapter still makes me laugh. Better not make a toast to King Stannis in here or you'll be shown the door.

The inn is crowded, but "Alys" and "Andra" carry a good deal of clout around here and they are able to get a room. Moiraine goes off to talk with someone named Min while Thom and the Musketeers go to get a bath. The guy pouring their water mentions trollocs and Mat very nearly tells him all about their adventure before Thom and Rand can get him to shut upo. Lan comes in and tells him off for being an idiot. Lan feels the way about our heroes the way I'd imagine a Navy SEAL would feel about going on a mission with somebody whose only combat experience was playing Halo. He sees them as irritating liabilities and clearly wishes somebody else could have gotten the job of babysitting these three knuckleheads.

Rand finishes his bath and sees Moiraine talking at the end of the hall with a girl who must be Min. I'm sure she'll be important soon but for now she just goes the other way.

Dinner is served and our intrepid heroes sit down to a table in a private room. Rand tries to apologize to Egwene but she rebuffs him. Chicken, turnips, henpeas and cheese, a feast for kings. The innkeeper apologizes for the food, saying it isn't what it should be, reminding us that it's been a long nasty witner outside of the Two Rivers as well. Is this Shai'tan's work? The false(?) Dragon's(whose name we learn is Logain)? Or is it just lousy weather?

More information on the Aes Sedai who went off to Ghealdan. They lost the battle against Logain, but what happened wasn't clear. Some say Logain killed them all, others say they all joined forces with him. Rand thanks Lan seems to know this Logain. Was he a former Warder?

Rand goes to bed and has another plot important dream. He's in a stone hallway that's lit somehow despite there being no lamps. There's a dripping noise coming from down the hall and he goes toward it. The hallway is one of those annoying ones that has no end and you never make any progress in. I think Bowser hires the guy who makes those to build staircases. Rand tries a door on the wall and enters a stone chamber, as would be expected. The room opens into a balcony, and the sky is filled with multicolored storm clouds, all weaving with each other in an unnatural way. This room is weird and scary in a subtle way. The wall and angles feel wrong. The stones become faces when you look away from them, writhing in agony. Rand looks in a mirror and can't see himself, only a blurry shape standing in the room. This is why you always read the Yelp review before checking into a hotel, Rand. You have only yourself to blame. In the mirror, a man is standing in front of the fireplace. His eyes and mouth open into pits of fire. Rand tries to get away, but of course the door just leads into the same room. The man offers him a drink out a fancy goblet. Rand raises the cup to his mouth, and puts it down. Maybe it's just me, but I think there's something not right about this man who's on fire on the inside and haunts your dreams.

"Who are you?" Rand asked. It's Ba'alzamon, Shai'tan, the Dark One. He tells Rand that his parents were chosen by the White Tower and that his fate has been centuries in the making. He tells him the Amyrlin Seat will use him as it used Davian and Guaire Amalasan and Raolin Darksbane and is using Logain. He tells himk that he is not bound in Shayol Ghul, that he manipultated Lews Therin into killing his wife and loosed the trollocs on the land and various other evil things. Rand has no chance against him, either he will serve him, or he will be a puppet for the Aes Sedai, and then he will die.

The goblet has become a rat. The Dark One points his finger at it, and the rat bends backward until its back breaks. Rand protests that this is just a dream, and the Dark One laughs. Tell the Aes Sedai about this dream, he says. They'll kill you and spread your ashes on the Dragonmount.

Rand wakes up and the chapter ends.

Jokes aside, that last part was a very effective and unsettling scene. If the Dark One has as much power as he claims, it's hard to imagine how Rand can possibly stop him. It also leaves me with one theory. Rand is the Dragon. He's going to learn this in some shocking Empire Strikes Back style scene and at some point will be able to use the Saidan without going mad or dying.

[Douglas]

If the Dark One has as much power as he claims

Because bad guys are known for never exaggerating their abilities and always being honest.

It also leaves me with one theory. Rand is the Dragon. He's going to learn this in some shocking Empire Strikes Back style scene and at some point will be able to use the Saidan without going mad or dying.

But wouldn't that make him a wizard, not a paladin?

Minor grammar nitpick, "Saidin" and "Saidar" are never prefixed with "the".

What, you expected me to comment on the accuracy of that theory?

[An Enemy Spy]

But wouldn't that make him a wizard, not a paladin?

Well the magic in this series seems more like divine magic than arcane and he's already got a sword. So no, he's a paladin.

[Lethologica]

Hn. Given only this information, I'm inclined to speculate that Logain is using saidin to control members of the Aes Sedai.

Or, well, who knows. Maybe he's just obsessively paranoid about a neighboring kingdom to the degree that he'll ignore the Obvious Looming Darkness in favor of political infighting. Er. Wait, no, that was Dragon Age. Never mind.

[Traab]

I think the whole point of the logain part of the chapter is to show us that you cant count on rumors, because they are all over the place. In a world where it can take weeks for a person to travel from one kingdom to another, real information is slow as heck to get out, and wild rumors are everywhere. So we still have no idea at all what is going on with this guy who can channel because none of the rumors are trustworthy. Im pretty sure this is a running theme in the story, where wild rumors are constantly spreading and its done as sort of a background noise so we readers can hear what the common man is hearing about the adventures and stuff we will be following. It makes for an interesting counterpoint.

"Didja hear? That bard fellow traveling with an aes sedai and her warder is secretly an agent of the dark lord!" "Oh garn! I heard he was the secret king of the aes sedai!" "Yeah well I heard he was an agent of the light descended from heaven to save us all!" Meanwhile we saw what actually happened was thom and morainne got into an argument in a busy street and thom won on moral grounds or whatever. So the dark friend rumor started by people who believed the aes sedai are all wise and knowing and anyone against them must be evil, the fact he won the argument must mean he is actually in control of her, and the agent of the light rumor is because the argument was morality over expediency or something.

[Seerow]

Hn. Given only this information, I'm inclined to speculate that Logain is using saidin to control members of the Aes Sedai.

Or, well, who knows. Maybe he's just obsessively paranoid about a neighboring kingdom to the degree that he'll ignore the Obvious Looming Darkness in favor of political infighting. Er. Wait, no, that was Dragon Age. Never mind.

...heh

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[Psyren]

@OP: All I'll say about the dream sequences is pay attention to every detail. Even stuff like the ambient light.

Well the magic in this series seems more like divine magic than arcane and he's already got a sword. So no, he's a paladin.

It's psionics really.

[Gnoman]

@OP: All I'll say about the dream sequences is pay attention to every detail. Even stuff like the ambient light.

Really a good way of looking at the series in general.

[Traab]

Really a good way of looking at the series in general.

True, an awful lot of small stuff mentioned briefly in passing will pop up again and be a big deal later on. That kinda sucks considering these are freaking massive stories with lots and LOTS of small stuff mentioned briefly then ignored till it returns as a big deal, but yeah. If you can remember it all you will have plenty of "Oh! THATS what they meant!" type moments of revelation.

[Psyren]

Really a good way of looking at the series in general.

I wouldn't go quite that far unless you really like dresses and hairstyles, anyway.

But yeah, one thing RJ has a talent for is burying vital foreshadowing or details in the midst of entire paragraphs about nothing. I remember the first time the Gray Men showed up, I did a double-take at exactly the moment the characters did. And let's not forget every WoT fan's favorite game, Spot The Forsaken!

[Anteros]

I wouldn't go quite that far unless you really like dresses and hairstyles, anyway.

But yeah, one thing RJ has a talent for is burying vital foreshadowing or details in the midst of entire paragraphs about nothing. I remember the first time

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the Gray Men

showed up, I did a double-take at exactly the moment the characters did.

He really is quite good at that. I found myself doing it several times over the course of the books.

[snowblizz]

He really is quite good at that. I found myself doing it several times over the course of the books.

That's probably one of the reasons I've been able to reread the series so many time. I've literally lost count. Best guess I can give is that it is probably in the 20s. Weoll, that and the 6+ hour boat rides to uni. Nothing kills time like having one of those bricks along, and you don't have to worry about bloody running out of lightforsaken text to read!

[Ashen Lilies]

I wouldn't go quite that far unless you really like dresses and hairstyles, anyway.

But yeah, one thing RJ has a talent for is burying vital foreshadowing or details in the midst of entire paragraphs about nothing. I remember the first time the Gray Men showed up, I did a double-take at exactly the moment the characters did. And let's not forget every WoT fan's favorite game, Spot The Forsaken!

The Grey Men are amazing. Literally every time one appeared I would have to reread the preceding paragraphs to find it. I still remember the massive epileptic trees trying to figure out who

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Demandred was. The reveal that he was off in another country entirely doing things unseen was logical, but ultimately disappointing.

[Vercingex]

Setting said everything else for a moment, WoT has some fantastic monsters. Jordan is also surprisingly good at switching into creepy mode. The Stag and Lion is still one of the best, earliest examples of that.

[Douglas]

The Grey Men are amazing. Literally every time one appeared I would have to reread the preceding paragraphs to find it.

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There were a few times I felt quite proud of myself for having noticed a Grey Man's introduction before reading his attention-drawing reveal. Jordan was very good at sneaking in mentions that were undeniably there but so unobtrusive as to easily go unnoticed.

[Anteros]

The spoiler are amazing. Literally every time one appeared I would have to reread the preceding paragraphs to find it. I still remember the massive epileptic trees trying to figure out who

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Demandred was. The reveal that he was off in another country entirely doing things unseen was logical, but ultimately disappointing.

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I'm firmly convinced that Jordan originally meant Taim to be Demandred, but so many fans figured it out that he decided to change it.

[The_Snark]

Setting said everything else for a moment, WoT has some fantastic monsters. Jordan is also surprisingly good at switching into creepy mode. The Stag and Lion is still one of the best, earliest examples of that.

Agreed, although Eyes Without Pity is the one that sticks with me most.

[Vercingex]

I just wanted to say that, in terms of monsters,

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Myrddraal are some of my favorite monsters in fiction. While they eventually lose their edge due to overexposure, their traits make them otherworldly and wrong, like they are obeying different rules than the laws of physics or magic. The cloaks that don't blow in the wind are my favorite touch. Little details like that really sell monsters.

Similarly, the thing about Darkhounds only leaving footprints in stone is another great detail. But I feel that Darkhounds are actually too overpowering- they are so strong, only powerful channelers can fight them, which limits opportunities for their use. They are huge, strong, fast, relentless, and they hunt in packs. They're plenty scary enough without being almost indestructible.