[PEACH]Fifth Edition Binder Class II (Still WIP)

[Prince Zahn]

Wow! A lot of things happened while I was gone I'm going to find a time to edit and address all these posts today so keep an eye on this post throughout the day.DONE! Still got more to keep up with now bbut hopefully not something I can't deal with tomorrow!

@On the topic of influence I would like to remind everyone that these are essentially Personality Traits/Ideals/Bonds and/or Flaws, and need to follow proper formatting. this includes first person descriptions (i.e I am...; I can be... ; I don't like...) this is stuff a binder should have on his to his character sheet alongside his other Traits/ideals/flaws/bonds (perhaps attached with tape, or something?) and should thus be in the same format. also - vestiges don't "require" or "demand" from a vestige in the same way the used to. instead, a Binder can choose to whether or not to act upon a vestige's influence with the prospect of earning Inspiration for good roleplaying. this is how it works in Out of the Abyss, to my understanding, and this is how it works for the 5e Binder.

Onto the quotes!

I've gotta go to sleep now; if anyone wants to comment on my latest creation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=110) while I'm out, be my guest.

Oops! missed that one. I'm on it!

This reminds me of an idea I had: suppose we create vestiges of ourselves (with anaximander being a 9th level vestige of course)

[SPOILER=The Astronomer]
Sagan
The Astronomer
8th level vestige
*snip*

I don't even think you should really need any action for Golden Record. it seems more interaction based. while my prefferred wording of RAW eludes me, I would probably say that by conjuring images of the great cosmos, you could communicate with any creature that has a language. to make things more flavorful, I would consider making this at-will ability not function in bright light. :3

@Clouds of Venus can afford to be much more powerful, according to spell damage rules in the DMG. without taking the effects into consideration, an 8th level spell has an expected damage output of 12d10 (or 13d6 for an area effect) or different damage dice with a close enough average (45.5 on average for an area effect) - for example: 18d4 and an additional 25% more damage output on top of that if there's no half damage/partial effect on a sucessful save.
also, is this an effect that lingers? does it have a duration? what are the durations for being blinded or deafened? Though it goes without saying in the DMG, these things added to the spell might reduce it's damage output to balance things out a bit.
@Moon of Ice and @Pale Blue Dot: see my thoughts on damage from Clouds of Venus.
personally, I think it's all bit overcompensating on the lack of the binder's damage output, I'd suggest either CoV, MoI or PBD be made at-will (with damage modified accordingly). either Moon of Ice or Pale Blue Dot could also just as easily be Ranged spell attacks instead if demanding saving throws, thus benefitting anything that would benefit a ranged spell attack.

Keep going doctor, these sparks of Inspiration are made of the same stuff that makes our world turn!

[SPOILER=Orthos, Sovereign of the Howling Dark]
Orthos
Sovereign of the Howling Dark

@Whispering Wind is essentially a hibrid of Message and Sending. for a 9th level vestige it doesn't seem unreasonable to have an at-will feature like that, I'd even increase the range.
@Howling Resilience is kind of nice, but fairly limited in it's application I think. I'm not familiar with too many air spells that should trouble you this late in the game, but I didn't read to much into Elemental Evil.
@Howling Fury. Investiture of wind is a 6th level spell. I think that's a bit powerful to make a free passive ability, even by 20th level standards they don't get passive 6th level effects.
@Eye of Darkness seems fine, I think. I don't know when is a good level for Blindsight and how far it ought to be.
@Whirlwind Breath, as a damage spell, should have a damage output of 14d6 damage or amount with a similar average for an area effect. +25% if you remove the save for half. This is going by the DMG for constructing a spell.

So far I like it, overall. Keep it up!

Malphas
The Turnfeather
2nd level Vestige

speaking from my unpublished attempts, Malphas is one of the more difficult vestiges to translate into 5e on the one hand, invisibility once per combat (or even at will) is really powerful for a 2nd level vestige (as well as for numerous vestige levels after that!) On the other hand, making it rest powered makes it too weak to work with, as it's intention in 3.5 was to allow for an easy sneak attack. Not that I really know of any applicable recharge mechanics that might apply. Personally, I wish we could use the recharge X-Y mechanic in the monster manual, but that would slow down combat significantly, as I understand it. And I can't allow adopting Monster Manual mechanics when building the homebrew Binder with a clear conscience. I think Malphas may need a solid level upgrade if we want to keep giving him invisibility as part of it's traditional purpose.
I think @Sneak Attack is pretty good, because it emulates but does not overpower the rogue staple feature with the same name. How does this feature interact with multiclass Rogue/Binder characters?
I dig @Poison Use, I was thinking the exact same thing, making Malphas a very unique downtime vestige
@Bird's Eye Viewing nice save on the "find" spell controversy. I think you could extend the duration of switching senses, but offer the option to end the "birdsight" early.

[Submortimer]

Here's what i have for Aym

Spoiler: Aym, Queen of Avarice

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Aym
Queen of Avarice
2nd Level vestige
DC: 12
Seal:
Sign:While you host Aym, you bear a starshaped brand on the palm of your left hand or on your forehead, as you choose at the time you make the pact.
Manifestation:Aym arises from a coiled heap within the seal. She has two great worms for legs and three heads—one a lion’s, one a female dwarf’s, and one a bull’s. Her powerfully muscled torso strains beneath the fi nery of an empress, and her fi ngers glitter with more than a dozen jeweled rings. In one hand she holds a red-hot, star-shaped branding iron, and with the other, she holds shut the lion head’s mouth. Aymspeaks through her dwarf head, since both animal heads are incapable of speech. She prefers to keep the lion muzzled because if she doesn’t, it roars and causes the bull’s head to low in terror, making it impossible for her to hear.

PROFICIENCIES
While bound to Aym, you gain proficiency in medium armor.

Golden-Fisted Rule: You gain advantage on all intimidation checks and suffer disadvantage on all persuasion checks vs. Dwarves.

Golden Plate: Your speed is not reduced while wearing armor which you are not proficient in.

Golden Halo: As a bonus action, you may surround yourself with a halo of fire. You gain resistance to fire damage, and any creature that touches you or hits you with a melee attack must make a dexterity saving throw or take 1d10 points of fire damage. Additionally, while your halo is active, as an action you may make a melee spell attack as if you were casting a cantrip; this attack deals 1d10 points of fire damage. The damage of this attack increases to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, and 4d10 at level 16.

Ruinous Strike: You gain advantage when making melee attacks against inanimate objects, and you double the amount of damage you to objects.

Ruinous Decree: You can cast Shatter without using a spell slot. One you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before doing so again.

PACT INFORMATION:

Spoiler: Legend

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Dwarven legends depict Aym as the greediest dwarf queen who ever lived. Modern-day dwarves still spit at the mention of her name. Not long after Moradin first forged the dwarves, Aym arose as a great leader among them. Greed brought her to power, and greed consumed her while she ruled. Dwarves mined furiously in response to Aym’s constant demand for more gems and precious metals, and her people became virtual slaves to their work. As onerous as Aym’s rule was, however, all this mining greatly expanded the dwarves’ territory, and many dwarven clans grew quite wealthy. Jealous of the dwarves’ wealth and smarting from their conquests, a great horde of orcs, giants, and goblinoids banded into an army to assault Aym’s kingdom. The dwarves fought bravely, but because their forces were stretched so thin across Aym’s empire, they could not respond quickly enough to the horde’s concentrated assault on their capital. Legend has it that when the fires of the burning city reached her, Aym stood among a hundred wagons laden with gold that her servants had loaded in preparation for her flight. But so engrossed was she in counting the coins to make certain she didn’t lose a copper that she didn’t notice the danger until the fires began to melt the coins in her grasp. Rather than repenting her greed at the point of her death, Aym cursed Moradin for not protecting her, and in return, Moradin cursed her.

When summoning Aym, you may attempt to appeal to her immortal greed to win her favor. Providing 100 gp worth of gems, gold, or other valueables to Aym grants you advantage on your binding check. Aym takes these valueables, though she returns them when the bind is broken if you made a good pact with her.
Additionally, due to Aym's immense guilt at failing her people, any dwarf that binds Aym makes a good pact regardless of the binding check, though choosing to bind her would be considered a great insult to most dwarves.

If you make a poor pact with Aym, she influences your personality in one of the following ways:

Influence	Description
Flaw	I am incredably stingy and greedy, and I begrudge every coin or item of value that I or my group must give to another.
Bond	I feel an irresistable urge to make reparations to any dwarves I meet. If able, i will attempt to give a coin (copper, silver, gold, or platinum) to any dwarf you meet within 1 min of learning their name.

Edit: Minor Rules change.

[The_Doctor]

Actually, Pale Blue Dot is already At-Will (unless a "per short rest" sneaked in there without my noticing). I'll up the damage on everything, add a duration on CoV, and drop the action on Golden Record.

[Submortimer]

:
@Howling Resilience is kind of nice, but fairly limited in it's application I think. I'm not familiar with too many air spells that should trouble you this late in the game, but I didn't read to much into Elemental Evil.

It's the ribbon for Orthos. It's other abilities are much better to make up for that.

Howling Fury. Investiture of wind is a 6th level spell. I think that's a bit powerful to make a free passive ability, even by 20th level standards they don't get passive 6th level effects.

As I mentioned, I chose this over permanent displacement. While i agree that a 6th level spell at will could be OP, IoW isn't quite so bad. Essentialy, its a small part of Warding Wind, some Flight, and a 2d10 AoE attack rolled into one, none of which are really OP for a 17th level charcter.

Whirlwind Breath, as a damage spell, should have a damage output of 14d6 damage or amount with a similar average for an area effect. +25% if you remove the save for half. This is going by the DMG for constructing a spell.

I'm fine changing it. I went off of the old "1d6 per binder level" metric.

[The_Doctor]

Changes made.

Wow, Mortimer, you're making vestiges super fast! Keep them coming!

Hey Submortimer, any comments on the Astronomer?

[Submortimer]

Changes made.

Wow, Mortimer, you're making vestiges super fast! Keep them coming!

Hey Submortimer, any comments on the Astronomer?

Thanks, when I get inspired the content just kinda flows. Well, that, and I'm just updating old binder stuff to the new template, that makes it a lot easier :)

As for the Astronomer, it's not bad. A boost to damage, primarily just some extra blasting, with a rather amusing, if non canon, source. I agreed with much of what Zhan has already said, so there's not much in the way of mechanical changes I'd make to it.

[The_Doctor]

Hey Mortimer, why don't you try to make a vestige of yourself?

[Prince Zahn]

Hey Mortimer, why don't you try to make a vestige of yourself?

I'd rather if we have to stop everything to make vestiges of ourselves, that we each make a vestige of someone else. It would be a nice bonding excercise :3 they would get a specially labeled spot under Misc. Vestiges.

EDIT:To add to the challenge, I'd like to propose we limit designer vestiges to 5th level or lower. We have too many 9th level vestiges in the misc. Category to add ourselves.

If you feel you don't have enough info on a particular creator, feel free to ask a bunch of questions and be sure to answer any you get.

[The_Doctor]

(I still think Anaximander should be a 9th level vestige.)

Spoiler: Zahn, Sealed Fate

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Zahn
Sealed Fate
4th level Vestige
PROFICIENCIES
You gain proficiency in Intelligence saving throws while bound to Zahn.
Sign: Zahn's seal becomes a huge tattoo on your back, roughly 1 foot in diameter.
Zahn's Power: While bound to Zahn, you have advantage on binding checks.
Zahn's Strength: Once per long rest, you can increase the damage die of one power you use that was granted by a vestige by one step (d4<d6<d8<d10), to a maximum of d10.
Fast Recharge: At any point while bound to Zahn, choose a single, expended feature you have that requires you to finish a short or long rest to use again, you gain an additional, single use of that feature, which expires the next time you take a short or long rest if not expended. You can not select the same feature twice for Fast Recharge while bound to Zahn. You can use this feature twice, once you have done so, you must complete a long rest before you can do so again. This feature does not allow you to have more uses available for any feature beyond the maximum amount detailed in it's description.
Zahn's Skill: When you make a pact with Zahn, choose one of the following features from the options below:

• You may increase the range of one effect granted by a vestige by 15 feet.
• You may increase the radius of one effect granted by a vestige by 5 feet.
• You may increase the duration of one effect granted by a vestige by 1 round. (You can only do this if the effect already has a duration.)

[Submortimer]

I mean, if i'm gonna make The Doctor as a vestige, I'd be hard pressed not to make him 9th level...

[ImSAMazing]

I mean, if i'm gonna make The Doctor as a vestige, I'd be hard pressed not to make him 9th level...

You know what would be fun? To make a ImSAMazing as a Vestige

[Prince Zahn]

You know what would be fun? To make a ImSAMazing as a Vestige

Heh, I'll get on that personally if you make a vestige for someone else involved in this, you have my word, SAMazing.


EDIT: don't worry about putting someone up at a lower level. It means more binders will be able to put it to use!

Also, I seem incredibly powerful. It's like I break every rule I try so hard to establish... Nice work! XD

[ImSAMazing]

Heh, I'll get on that personally if you make a vestige for someone else involved in this, you have my word, SAMazing.


EDIT: don't worry about putting someone up at a lower level. It means more binders will be able to put it to use!

Also, I seem incredibly powerful. It's like I break every rule I try so hard to establish... Nice work! XD

I can give it a try. Who should I turn into a Vestige? Also is there a Vestige template?

[Prince Zahn]

I can give it a try. Who should I turn into a Vestige? Also is there a Vestige template?

That's all I ask for

Since Submortimer seems to be doing the Doctor, and I was already made a Vestige for, you have Spiriah, Submortimer, Scarce, and Anaximander to select from.

You can find my general template here. Scarce said he might make another template for combat vestiges, but I'm still waiting on that. I suppose he's still experimenting at this stage.

[Submortimer]

Off topic, and maybe I'm late to the party on this, but I'm not a fan of the 'Fate' subclasses. In general, they're fine, perfectly serviceable, but I'd like to try my hand at designing three subclasses for this guy that maybe fit more in line with established Binder lore.

To the point, I'll be designing the Knight of the Seal (melee subclass), Anima Mage (spellcasting subclass), and the Occultist (enhancing binding). I'm also going to be stealing a lot from the warlock; those jerks stole our pacts from us, we can steal some stuff from them!

[Submortimer]

Wow! A lot of things happened while I was gone I'm going to find a time to edit and address all these posts today so keep an eye on this post throughout the day.

@On the topic of influence I would like to remind everyone that these are essentially Personality Traits/Ideals/Bonds and/or Flaws, and need to follow proper formatting. this includes first person descriptions (i.e I am...; I can be... ; I don't like...) this is stuff a binder should have on his to his character sheet alongside his other Traits/ideals/flaws/bonds (perhaps attached with tape, or something?) and should thus be in the same format. also - vestiges don't "require" or "demand" from a vestige in the same way the used to. instead, a Binder can choose to whether or not to act upon a vestige's influence with the prospect of earning Inspiration for good roleplaying. this is how it works in Out of the Abyss, to my understanding, and this is how it works for the 5e Binder.

This...I disagree with strongly. Being "under the influence" is supposed to be a bad thing, or at least an unpleasant one. Pact magic is inherently dangerous, and to take away that risk takes away a large amount of the flavor of the class.

Not only that, but why would it matter if you made a good pact or not if you could just choose to go against the vestige's influence? In fact, it seems more beneficial to make a POOR pact; granted, you can't suppress the sign, but that's paltry compared to getting an additional outlet for possible inspiration. In my eyes, it should be something like this:

If you fail your binding check, you still gain the powers of the vestige, but are also under it's influence. While you are under it's influence, you gain one Flaw, Trait, Ideal, or quirk associated with the vestige that you must adhere to; not doing so is highly dangerous. Every time you attempt to subvert or deny a bound vestige's influence, you gain one level of exhaustion. Once you gain 5 levels of exhaustion this way, you are rendered unconscious, and all vestiges you currently have bound breaks their bonds. All levels of exhaustion gained in this fashion are removed once the poorly-bonded Vestige is no longer bound.

Remember, vestiges are alien, unknowable creatures that should have taxing, mind altering effects on the people that allow them to ride along.

If you want it the way it is, that's fine; get rid of the binding check. There's no point to it otherwise.

[Prince Zahn]

I feel Spiriah's playtest report would be better addressed if I discussed it in a new post:

Hey, I'm back! I've got a few more sessions of Binder gameplay under my belt, and am currently sitting at 9th level. A few things I've noticed/opinions I have:

- The Extra Attack is REALLY important if you plan to be a Binder in melee, to the point where we're still using it in my group despite the revision. A very large number of vestiges are melee-centric in one way or another, and I find myself needing the extra attack and occasionally Paimon's haste dance (which I'm quite fond of) to keep up with the other melee damage dealers. Binder shouldn't be as good in melee as a devoted melee class, sure, but if you're limited to one attack without vestige support you'll never come close to being an effective melee combatant without optimization.

first of all, thanks for returning to us with feedback!
Which subclass did you take?
Do you think the need for extra attacks could be alleviated by adding more damage-dealing features to vestiges?
If you had to choose one of the attacks for the Binder, which do you think is more important from a practical (and fun) perspective: the extra attack, or the Dance of death feature from the original Paimon?

- Binder ranged/spell damage also seems a little lacking to me, though it may be due to a lack of not-at-will damage powers. I have had great success with Amon's breath, however, especially when an invisible enemy decided to engage me in melee just as I got to full charge.

Glad to hear more positive feedback from Amon
I think some of us have already started looking into what we could do with ranged spell attack rolls. Nevertheless I shall keep an eye out for this in the future.

- On a more enjoyment-related note, playing a Binder is really fun. It feels like playing a cleric or wizard in that you have to anticipate what you'll need to prepare for the coming day, but rather than spells you have a plethora of neat abilities you can mix and match (on a related note, the DM has dropped hints that we're going to be fighting a kraken or something similar, so if anyone feels like brewing up relevant vestiges, e.g. Shax, that would be helpful). Among other cool things I've done with the Binder, I landed Ipos's Rend on a vampire, killed it, and ripped out its spine. I have subsequently kept said spine, and am looking into using it as a magic item component.

you hear that guys? Aquatic themed vestiges! We are officially a mission!

In you're campaign, do you get to use any Misc. Vestiges?
How strong would you say ipos is for his level on a scale of 1 to 5, where 1 is underpowered, 5 is really OP and 6 is Cheesy McMunchkin?

I'm really glad you enjoy the class so far! That's a sign of all our hard work starting to pay off.

Another question: how do you find the class's level progression chart/chassis? Other than extra attack, are there any notes you would like to add on improving it (or any bugs you want to point to our attention?)

- @Zahn: Haven't failed a pact yet, though I've come close. Had to use a luck point once or twice, though (Yeah, I know, using Lucky to dodge bad pacts isn't very flavorful, but better safe than sorry).

What is this I don't even... You have nothing to be afraid of a bad pact. the only thing you absolutely have to show for it is the physical signs (I'd like feedback on those too, when we get there) if you don't want to play by a vestige's influence, there's no in-game penalties for not playing it, though I really think you should, even if just to earn a little more Inspiration.
But seriously, why on ATHAS are you wasting precious luck points to avoid a bad pact? Since I started playing Odétte in a 3.5 game on these forums, I'm simply ANXIOUS to make a poor pact with a vestige and roleplay the consequences of that. I can't imagine why roleplaying a slightly different character every day, and driving your teammates up the wall as they try to wrap their heads around it, would be something you want to avoid?

[...]I'm a fan of the streamlined DCs, too, especially with bounded accuracy being as it is and preventing 3.5's really high DCs from being possible, especially with prof bonus not being added to bind checks.

funny, you should be able to add your Proficiency Bonus to Binding checks. I'll address that first thing in the morning.

- @Fellow playtesters: If you're like me and can't keep all your vestige features straight, consider doing what I did and making vestige cards by transcribing a summary of their abilities onto index cards. Allows for the bonus feature of allowing you to shuffle the deck and pick vestiges at random!

I approve of this, and applaud Scarce for offering to get on that! Two thumbs up!

Keep going Spiriah! We're rooting for you!

[Prince Zahn]

Off topic, and maybe I'm late to the party on this, but I'm not a fan of the 'Fate' subclasses. In general, they're fine, perfectly serviceable, but I'd like to try my hand at designing three subclasses for this guy that maybe fit more in line with established Binder lore.

To the point, I'll be designing the Knight of the Seal (melee subclass), Anima Mage (spellcasting subclass), and the Occultist (enhancing binding). I'm also going to be stealing a lot from the warlock; those jerks stole our pacts from us, we can steal some stuff from them!

I've kind of been on this road with Anaximander before. It did not end well for either of us.
The awakened Binder is essentially an Anima Mage, retooled.
To a degree we did think for a while on a KoSS, but the idea was dropped in favor of other concepts. Also, I felt a need to innovate a bit once I get the Warped Binder done, I'll revisit the other two subclasses, which I've (for the most part) left as Anaxi made them.
I'd rather we talk on this in PMs on the topic of subclasses, nothing personal to everyone else, I just prefer to manage this sort of thing independently from the communal posting rate. I'm struggling to keep up with it.

This...I disagree with strongly. Being "under the influence" is supposed to be a bad thing, or at least an unpleasant one. Pact magic is inherently dangerous, and to take away that risk takes away a large amount of the flavor of the class.

Not only that, but why would it matter if you made a good pact or not if you could just choose to go against the vestige's influence? In fact, it seems more beneficial to make a POOR pact, thereby getting an additional outlet for possible inspiration.

insanity (which from what I understand is aa rule to the OotA storyline) is supposed to be a bad thing, too. Same with flaws. But you can't stop the game and force a player into roleplaying something s/he is opposed to, and expect him/her to enjoy him/herself. WotC seem to have thought this through. The new edition removed a lot of penalties for "poor character decisions" (on a behavior analysis perspective: "positive punishments" were removed, making them "negative reinforcements") in favor of rewarding proper action and roleplaying (Inspiration= used as "positive reinforcement" for deliberately acting out a less-than-desired influence.) Roleplaying your influence should be a bad thing, I agree. It can stir up a lot of problems for a careless binder's tale. But at the same time we are encouraging acting out a poor pact because of the drama it would cause. If a player is like me will be all "oh boy! a poor pact - now I get to role play all the downsides!" Then, as one might say, God bless.

I will, however, take action if I find out that one or more influences are encouraging Players to actively oppose the other players, or otherwise proves to be poisonous to the game's dynamics.

[The_Doctor]

Well, Zahn, would you be so kind as to help balance yourself?

Also SAMazing, you haven't been here much, so based on my current knowledge I would be incapable of creating a vestige out of you.

[Submortimer]

insanity (which from what I understand is aa rule to the OotA storyline) is supposed to be a bad thing, too. Same with flaws. But you can't stop the game and force a player into roleplaying something s/he is opposed to, and expect him/her to enjoy him/herself.

Of course you can. Thats why they're playing a BINDER. They know they're playing with fire, and that it will burn them from time to time; no different than enforcing a Paladin's Oath.

WotC seem to have thought this through. The new edition removed a lot of penalties for "poor character decisions" (on a behavior analysis perspective: "positive punishments" were removed, making them "negative reinforcements") in favor of rewarding proper action and roleplaying (Inspiration= used as "positive reinforcement" for deliberately acting out a less-than-desired influence.)

Again, see the paladin.

Roleplaying your influence should be a bad thing, I agree. It can stir up a lot of problems for a careless binder's tale. But at the same time we are encouraging acting out a poor pact because of the drama it would cause. If a player is like me will be all "oh boy! a poor pact - now I get to role play all the downsides!" Then, as one might say, God bless.

I hate to say it, but i think you put a bit too much faith in the eagerness of people to roleplay what is effectively an insanity. As we've seen, the natural reaction to making a binding check is to succeed at all costs.

I will, however, take action if I find out that one or more influences are encouraging Players to actively oppose the other players, or otherwise proves to be poisonous to the game's dynamics.

Well yeah, of course. Not even the stuff from 3.5 encouraged that.


I get that you want to remove downsides. Thats okay. What I. Saying is that we need to make the Binding check MEAN something. As of right now, all it allows you to do is supress the sign of a given vestige and ignore the *totally optional anyways* influence. Either we need to come up with a proper, concrete benefit to succeeding on that binding check (maybe gating an ability based on whether you made a good pact or not), or just get rid of it, since it serves no purpose.

[Prince Zahn]

Spoiler: Zahn, Sealed Fate

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Zahn
Sealed Fate
4th level Vestige
Binding DC: 15
Sign: Zahn's seal becomes a huge tattoo on your back, roughly 1 foot in diameter.

FTFY. Looks a little more aesthetic to more

PROFICIENCIES
You gain proficiency in Intelligence saving throws while bound to Zahn.

first of all, I'm flattered. that being said, I would never trust a 4th level vestige with a saving throw proficiency. Surely you know this.

Zahn's Majesty: While bound to Zahn, you have advantage on binding checks.

Minor nitpick. a quick Google search reads that the proper term is "(royal) highness", majesty is more appropriate if I was a king, which I am not.

Zahn's Strength: As long as you are bound to Zahn, all damaging abilities granted by Vestiges that are not limited by rests have their damage die increased by one step (d4-->d6--d8-->d10), to a maximum of d10.

I failed my saving throw and am frightened by the thought of how this would interact with Amon's fire breath this will likely need to be nerfed.

Fast Recharge: When you finish binding your vestiges, choose one other vestige you are bound too. All abilities of that vestige that require a short rest instead require no rest, and ones that require a long rest instead require a short rest.

how about:

Spoiler

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FAST RECHARGE
At any point while bound to Zahn, choose a single, expended feature you have that requires you to finish a short or long rest to use again, you gain an additional, single use of that feature, which expires the next time you take a short or long rest if not expended. You can not select the same feature twice for Fast Recharge while bound to Zahn. You can use this feature twice, once you have done so, you must complete a long rest before you can do so again. This feature does not allow you to have more uses available for any feature beyond the maximum amount detailed in it's description.

Zahn's Skill: When you bind to Zahn, choose one:
Once per short rest, you may increase the range of one effect granted by a vestige by 15 feet.
Once per short rest, you may increase the diameter of one effect granted by a vestige by 5 feet.
Once per long rest, you may increase the radius of one effect granted by a vestige by 5 feet.

list button is your friend, Doctor
Also, if you can increase the radius(R) of an effect by 5 feet, why would you ever settle for increasing the diameter (=2R) by 5feet?

Spoiler

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Zahn's Skill: When you make a pact with Zahn, choose one of the following features from the options below:

• you may increase the range of one effect granted by a vestige by 15 feet.
• you may increase the radius/diameter (choose 1) of one effect granted by a vestige by X feet.
• ???

Once you have chosen one of the options presented above, you can not choose a different one until you end and renew your pact with Zahn. Once you have used the ability you selected, you can not do so again until you have completed a short rest.

That's enough for me today, guys. I gotta sleep! After today I'm probably going to slow my posting rate down to accommodate a busy time of year, and because you guys are too fast for me right now. I gotta know my limits

[Scarce]

On Aym:

PROFICIENCIES
While bound to Aym, you gain proficiency in medium armor.

Not convinced this works well with Savnok. Is it okay if the Binder gets proficiency with heavy armor at 7th level when he binds both Aym and Savnok? It strikes me that in 5e the ability to walk around in full plate is really a powerful class feature, compared to 3.5. I don't know if this means we should avoid giving medium armor proficiency until after then, or if we need to retool Savnok, but be aware that including this actually makes the class a great deal stronger.

Golden Halo: As a bonus action, you may surround yourself with a halo of fire. You gain resistance to fire damage, and any creature that touches you or hits you with a melee attack takes 1d10 points of fire damage. Additionally, while your halo is active, as an action you may make a melee spell attack as if you were casting a cantrip; this attack deals 1d10 points of fire damage. The damage of this attack increases to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, and 4d10 at level 16.

The attacker that is getting dealt damage should be able to make a Dex save against it. Also, for brevity's sake, turn that damage thing into just "You can cast the produce flame cantrip at will.

Other than that, superior work.

I get that you want to remove downsides. Thats okay. What I. Saying is that we need to make the Binding check MEAN something. As of right now, all it allows you to do is supress the sign of a given vestige and ignore the *totally optional anyways* influence. Either we need to come up with a proper, concrete benefit to succeeding on that binding check (maybe gating an ability based on whether you made a good pact or not), or just get rid of it, since it serves no purpose.

On one hand, I really like the idea of tying the Vestige's influence into the Flaw and Personality Trait components of 5e (in fact, that decision alone might have been the one that convinced me to join in on this project). On the other hand, Submortimer is totally right. Pact negotiation seems like it should carry a real mechanical risk.

I suggest we find a concise way of putting this mechanic, which fits well within the flavor of the class, and gate the 1/long ability of any vestige (or some other appropriately powerful ability, if the vestige has no once/long feature) if the binder fails his check.

[Scarce]

Noone panic, but I have a new vestige which I intend as a new addition for the canonical vestiges:

Spoiler: Xanathar

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Xanathar
The Eye
3rd Level Vestige

Antimagic Influence
You have advantage on checks made to resist conditions imposed by magical effects.

Ray of Flame
You can cast fire bolt at will.

Eyes of the Beholder
Xanathar offers you the power of his magnicient eye rays. When you complete a short rest, you may regain the use of one of these expended rays.

Slow Ray
You can cast the spell slow without expending a spell slot. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Sleep Ray
As an action, you can select 1 creature you can see within 60 feet to make a Wisdom saving throw or fall asleep and remain unconscious for 1 minute. The creature awakens if it takes damage or another creature takes an action to wake it. This ray has no effect on constructs and undead. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Fear Ray
You can cast the spell fear without expending a spell slot. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Death Ray
As an action, you can make a spell attack against 1 creature you can see within 60 feet. On a hit, the creature takes 8d6 necrotic damage. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Spoiler: Legend:

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It is well-known among vagrants and thieves that the Xanathar was one of most infamous beholders in history and was formerly the crime lord of the Xanathar Thieves' Guild. Xanthar was also known as The Eye, and it is unclear today which was his name and which was his title.

History remembers The Eye as a ruthless beholder with many eye tyrant rivals, each of whom fell before him in his quest for power. The first was the original guildmaster of the Xanathar Thieves' Guild, whom the Eye murdered and impersonated, taking the Guild and its secrets for himself. With the power of this guild, and centuries to grow his influence in Skullport, the Eye grew his reputation as one of the most feared crime bosses of the city. Expanding his empire to the trade of illicit goods and slaves, the Eye quickly earned the ire of another eye tyrant, Misker, the Pirate Tyrant.

At the height of its power, The Eye extended its control over all the beholders of Undermountain, forcing all those who refused to bow to him, including Misker, to the Underdark or the surface. As the centuries passed, The Eye grew older and his enemies grew more bitter. In spite of the disdain beholders hold for each other, Misker banded The Eye's rivals together to conspire how they might overthrow him, marking the single greatest harmonious confluence of beholders in history.

When at last retribution came, the beholders all but razed Xanathar's guild and destroyed The Eye, body and soul with dark magic known only to elder eyes.

When you make a poor pact with Xanathar, he influences your behavior in one of the following ways:

Personality trait: I demonstrate the pathological mind of a crime lord. I horde useful information, hold a grudge for every slight against me, and strike my enemies without warning or mercy. Laws are little more than a hindrance to be.

Ideal: I am the perfect creature of my kind, and no creature is my equal. I harbor immense resentment for other creatures' imperfections.

[Spiriah]

I feel Spiriah's playtest report would be better addressed if I discussed it in a new post:
first of all, thanks for returning to us with feedback!
Which subclass did you take?

Took Unfettered for flavor purposes (My character's looking into a series of events that are causing planar instability, due to his brother getting flung into an unknown plane in a magic-related accident), but I haven't really found an opportunity to use the powers yet.

Do you think the need for extra attacks could be alleviated by adding more damage-dealing features to vestiges?

That's a possibility. I do think we need some more direct-damage features to make ranged/spellcasting vestiges viable, so that'd be a step in the right direction.

If you had to choose one of the attacks for the Binder, which do you think is more important from a practical (and fun) perspective: the extra attack, or the Dance of death feature from the original Paimon?

The extra attack, simply because of the fact that it's not locked behind having a specific vestige bound. If it takes having one vestige in particular to make a melee build viable, I think that's a problem that goes against the idea of the Binder being about combining abilities you think are fun rather than binding the same vestige(s) every day because it's the most optimal and/or you're useless in a particular role without one of them.

you hear that guys? Aquatic themed vestiges! We are officially a mission!

I believe my next session is on Sunday, if memory serves, so if we can get some done before then, that'd help.

In you're campaign, do you get to use any Misc. Vestiges?
How strong would you say ipos is for his level on a scale of 1 to 5, where 1 is underpowered, 5 is really OP and 6 is Cheesy McMunchkin?

Haven't asked about/attempted to use any misc. vestiges, though I'm sure I will eventually. Ipos is fairly well balanced, IMO, probably around a 2.5 to 3? I have a Robe of Stars, so the Planar Attenuation is nice, and the Flash of Insight is also very neat, though those two abilities aren't always relevant. Ipos's Influence is handy when you really need someone to get shoved by Ronove or blinded by Focalor or what have you, though that didn't prevent the vampire I was trying to push into a Guardian of Faith's radius from passing the save with disadvantage. It's also nice for trying to force things to burn Legendary Resistances.

Another question: how do you find the class's level progression chart/chassis? Other than extra attack, are there any notes you would like to add on improving it (or any bugs you want to point to our attention?)

I like the Pact Augmentations. Born of Chaos has served me well thus far. Soul Guardian and the anti-mind control feature (It's Slippery Mind in the class table, but Adamant Mind in the description) are both nice for stopping stuff that could otherwise ruin your day.[/QUOTE]

[...] I can't imagine why roleplaying a slightly different character every day, and driving your teammates up the wall as they try to wrap their heads around it, would be something you want to avoid?

I'll admit, I hadn't thought about it that way before. I think the luck point in question was because I rolled badly on Dahlver-Nar and wanted to avoid the SCALP TEETH, but I guess you're right that bad pacts aren't, well, all that bad? I think that now that I've sort of established my character's personality when he doesn't have spooky void ghosts in his brain, I'll save my points for more important things should I ever fail again.

funny, you should be able to add your Proficiency Bonus to Binding checks. I'll address that first thing in the morning.

Yeah, it just says it's a charisma check, doesn't specify prof bonus unless I'm just really bad at reading.

I approve of this, and applaud Scarce for offering to get on that! Two thumbs up!

Keep going Spiriah! We're rooting for you!

Thanks? Here's hoping I don't get murdered in the kraken fight, and that it decides to eat our Fighter after we drop Freedom of Movement on him so he can tear it apart from the inside!

[The_Doctor]

@Zahn: I changed the name of Zahn's Majesty, gave Zahn's Strength a HUGE nerf, reworded Fast Recharge according to your suggestion, and revised his final ability. *phew*

Also, I forgot to post this, but one of the people I was talking about the class with had a thought. I said it probably wouldn't work, but I would post anyway.

"When renegotiating, could I unbind and then rebind the same vestige to ignore the long-rest requirement?"

[Prince Zahn]

Of course you can. Thats why they're playing a BINDER.

That's a rather aggressive way of putting it, isn't it?

They know they're playing with fire, and that it will burn them from time to time; no different than enforcing a Paladin's Oath.

Influence is certainly not like the paladin's oaths, one functions on the inspiration system, one throws tenets of devotion in your face and threatens to take your class away from you if you don't behave. these are different levels of severity, and I would rather reward a player for behaving like a proper binder, than penalize said player for not liking the aftermath of his bad die roll. this is a design choice. the DM is more than capable of making a binder's life difficult if he/she fails the binding check. the physical sign would freak people out and cause trouble, and the unusual behavior contributes to that. I see no need to rub it in with mechanical punishment.

People are playing with the Inspiration mechanic anyway, It's efficacy has already been established. If we are to assume people will not play by the game's built in RP mechanic without a threat to kick them in the rear, then we can't say this adaptation is suitable for 5e, because it sure as heck won't feel like it is.

Again, see the paladin.

I saw the paladin. I read the part on breaking the oath multiple times. the answer is absolutely not. I refuse to take away a binder's class features for breaking character in a situation where such is called for. if you insist on punishing (crippling?) the player over not enjoying this less than desireable part of the binder, draft up a variant rule, PM it to me, we'll talk about it. and I'll post it up if it doesn't feel too extreme. but I will not force it upon every, single game that plays the class, as that would steer more players away from the class than it would draw them in. this is the last I will speak of such parallels between paladin oaths and Binder influence.

I hate to say it, but i think you put a bit too much faith in the eagerness of people to roleplay what is effectively an insanity. As we've seen, the natural reaction to making a binding check is to succeed at all costs.

it's not faith, but I might accept the word "overreaction". I'd accept it if as a player I'm in the minority for being passionate about bringing up complications for the sake of inter-party drama.

what we've seen is 3 gamers thus far who were openly willing to playtest it: one DM who used the material and has yet to give us any report on it, and 2 players, one of which had an anxiety attack from having "SCALP TEETH"

Spoiler: digression

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(which are very much concealable with a hat, @Spiriah, I recommend packing a disguise kit or extra "sign-concealing" accesories, which are a great idea for equipment I could add here. any thoughts on this, guys? ).

---and besides, what's so wrong about rewarding Inspiration for RPing a Binder's influence? It is a great, innovative mechanic to encourage roleplaying true to your character, (and, by extension, the vestiges you bind with.) Encouraging players to roleplay properly will naturally lead to them becoming better players in the long run. this is how inspiration works, and I stand by it.

Well yeah, of course. Not even the stuff from 3.5 encouraged that.


I get that you want to remove downsides. Thats okay. What I. Saying is that we need to make the Binding check MEAN something. As of right now, all it allows you to do is supress the sign of a given vestige and ignore the *totally optional anyways* influence. Either we need to come up with a proper, concrete benefit to succeeding on that binding check (maybe gating an ability based on whether you made a good pact or not), or just get rid of it, since it serves no purpose.

Influence does serve a purpose, Mortimer, but not the one you get with the methodology and spirit you expect it to enforce. A vestige's influence becomes part of the character for the duration of the pact: If you don't play true to your character, you shouldn't expect the DM to award you any inspiration for risks you could have taken, but didn't. Complicating and enriching the story with your inluence deserves recognition just as much as your default personality traits, ideals, bonds or flaws would, and that should be motivation enough.

[Scarce]

I got another one! Again, this is intended to be a canonical vestige, since the character is extremely important to D&D lore.

Spoiler: Aoskar

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Aoskar
The Flayed God
1st Level Vestige

Divine Influence
You can cast the cantrips message, sacred flame, and thaumaturgy at will.

Dimensional Leap
Aoskar has opened the doors of reality to you. As an action on your turn, you can teleport a distance up to half you movement speed to a location you can see. If you teleport into a space that is already occupied by an object or creature, you take force damage equal to the number of feet traveled and are shunted to the nearest unoccupied location.

Teleport Without Error
When you teleport, you arrive at your destination without error (though those teleporting with you may not.)

Protection from Evil and Good
You can cast the spell protection from evil and good without expending a spell slot. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Spoiler: Legend:

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Aoskar is perhaps the most infamous deity in Sigil; once coming close to calling that city home, now he is forgotten by nearly all, and those that do still know his name almost always know him only as a cautionary tale, a story of the fate that would befall all deities that would seek to unseat the Lady of Pain.

Though most records of Aoskar were lost in the Lady's destruction, it is well-known that he was once a lesser deity of Portals. He was quick to see the potential of the planar metropolis, even then known as the City of Doors, and began to enact plans to exploit from beyond its walls. Binder lore holds that he attempted this through his followers, who embedded short rituals to Aoskar into many of the city's portals. With time, his fellowship grew, and when the Temple of Doors was erected, almost half of the people of Sigil worshipped Aoskar though these rituals.

Aoskar's plan was to use the power of his followers to grant himself full-godhood, and more importantly, access to the city. When the Lady discovered this, her vengeance was swift and brutal. Overnight, the Temple of Doors and all those buildings for blocks around it were destroyed by a force unknown and unseen mid-sermon, all worshippers within those bounds killed in a single horrible instant. Aoskar vanished, responding to none, and it was not for centuries hence that his godcorpse was found in the Astral, head impaled with a multitude of blades.

Today, the rule follows from Aoskar's cautionary tale: "No Gods in the Cage."

When you make a poor pact with Aoskar, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:

Flaw: I become paranoid at the mention of gods or worship, shake nervously around tall women, and become catatonic at the sight of a cage.

Bond: I go out of my way to protect travelers who are far from home, though I am hesitant to protect women.

I think I'm gonna work on Kas, the Bloody-Handed, next. I'm not sure what level to put him at, though. He'll be very like Eligor and Andras, in that he's a pretty direct melee dude, so I'm thinking maybe make him 4th level, and make sure he gets Extra Attack.

[Prince Zahn]

I got another one! Again, this is intended to be a canonical vestige, since the character is extremely important to D&D lore.

I always welcome more vestiges. For a vestige to be standard, it needs to have a vestige published by WotC in 3.5 edition (article vestiges are acceptable too, if you can make sure they come out balanced). could you send me links to your reference material?

EDIT: I know I said Article vestiges are okay, just please, for the love of all that is a pure and sacred, don't pick the infamous ones.

[Scarce]

I saw the paladin. I read the part on breaking the oath multiple times. the answer is absolutely not. I refuse to take away a binder's class features for breaking character in a situation where such is called for.

Is that what you guys were talking about? I think the solution Submortimer put forward was that a binder cannot enjoy the full power of his vestige if he negotiates improperly. Thus only one feature should be gated. That makes sense and it encourages playing the binder mechanically in the same way that one would roleplay them.

From personal experience, it's not a significant punishment for a player to look weird, drawing attention and so forth, because pointing that out at the table and roleplaying it out for its consequences becomes repetitive quickly. (I've played monstorous PCs before and the subject of appearance consistently gets dropped after a little while, because I would always wear a cloak at all times, so the plot can move forward. After that decision, it started to seem weird that the DM forgot that people should be constantly noticing that I'm a monster-dude or too thickly covered to be seen. It's a no-win roleplay situation for the long-haul, and shouldn't be considered a mechanical impairment.)

[Scarce]

I always welcome more vestiges. For a vestige to be standard, it needs to have a vestige published by WotC in 3.5 edition (article vestiges are acceptable too, if you can make sure they come out balanced). could you send me links to your reference material?

These characters were not published vestiges, but they are important published characters in D&D lore. Aoskar is extremely important to Planescape and our understanding of Sigil and the Lady and Xanathar has been a fixture in Skullport for huge swaths of D&D and is easily one of the most legendary beholders. These characters belong among the core vestiges.