Occult Adventures

[Deadkitten]

I'm just going to go ahead and say I expect the FCB of halfling mediums to be the first thing they nerf.

Haflings with the champion spirit can be pretty nast combatants.

[Milo v3]

Someone on the pazioboards just mentioned that battlehost's could pick a firearm as their Panoply Bond to make sure they never have to deal with misfire. That's a rather nice ability when it comes to dipping for gun users.

[Extra Anchovies]

Am I reading Astral Beacon wrong, or do 20th-level Mediums really get to use it in any round in which they can spend a free action? If so, that's a pretty rad capstone.

I'm just going to go ahead and say I expect the FCB of halfling mediums to be the first thing they nerf.

Haflings with the champion spirit can be pretty nast combatants.

I don't see it. You get +6 damage over 18 levels. In 18 levels, many other class/race combos can get three combat feats. Getting +2 damage is generally seen as worse than getting a combat feat (as evidenced by Weapon Specialization being considered a waste).

Of course, it looks powerful, so of course it's getting nerfed. But that human Psychic FCB? Fair and balanced.

[Milo v3]

Am I reading Astral Beacon wrong, or do 20th-level Mediums really get to use it in any round in which they can spend a free action? If so, that's a pretty rad capstone

Yeah, it looks very useful. Though it probably should say it can only be used once per round or something...

[Segev]

I think more flavor but same mechanics is a good thing for the system. It lets you role play new stuff rather than sport about new systems. I might wish for more or better psychic only spells, but that's different than wanting a new casting mechanic.

Except that it's not really a "new" flavor. It's just a new word for something that would have worked as well with the words "arcane" and "divine" interspersed. In all honesty, nothing in their Occult Adventures preamble and description of what gives things "occult" flavor has anything to do with "psychic."

I will agree that they've taken on some flavor and fluff angles in this book that are not thoroughly explored elsewhere, but again, there was no need to create "psychic magic" to handle it. Worse, it still maps to "arcane-like" and "divine-like" with limited ways of saying, "yes, this should be psychic, not arcane or divine." It feels a touch arbitrary. If these weren't labeled "psychic" (with the exception of the eponymous class itself), there's little to point out why the Mesmerist, for instance, is not 'arcane,' or the Spiritualist, as another example, not 'divine.' Other than they're in this book and introduced to showcase how psychic magic works. While still being distinctly (respectively) "like an arcane class" and "like a divine class."

If they had done a PP system you'd say they ripped off DSP rather than themselves.

No, but I would have questioned why they waited so long that a third party had a well-developed variant on 3.5's system out first.

Because Piazo decided at some point, perhaps in part because of Dreamscarred Press, that when they brought in magic associated with the mind they would link it more with the occult and maintain Vancain spellcasting rather than the flavors we are accustomed to with the psion which includes a PP system.

I think linking it to Vancian-esq spell slots is my biggest complaint, with "the flavor really isn't distinct enough" being a close second.

Don't get me wrong; there's a distinct occult feel to a lot of these that was missing from D&D-esq games before. These could drop into Ravenloft much better than many classes that have been in that setting for many editions. But they're still arcane and divine in flavor, not "psychic."

I'm not sure what I would suggest instead of vancian casting if they don't want to use power points; however, I would strongly suggest that introducing a new power source that is still the same old spellcasting is a mistake. Especially when there's no new flavor that is distinctly unidentifiable as either Arcane or Divine in nature. (Psionics has ALWAYS struggled with this, but at least a separate subsystem helped establish the difference clearly.)

I see psychic magic and psionics as two distinct forms of magic, though campaign pending if the latter is magic at all, that both relate to the mind and can produce some similar effects.

Thing is, the distinction is arbitrary. I cannot point to a class that casts "psychic magic" and say, "They use psychic magic because of these elements and traits which don't work as either arcane or divine." If you were to write up a class with fluff and mechanics, but leave out the words "psychic," "arcane," or "divine," it would be a toss-up whether this hypothetical class is psychic or one of the other two. (It would probably be clear which of arcane or divine it would be if it weren't psychic, too, which only worsens the problem: the arcane/divine divide is nearly perfectly inclusive and exclusive - it covers nearly everything with nearly no overlap. Psychic is, perforce, overlapping them both heavily, rather than carving out or settling in to its own niche that is unique to it.)

[Milo v3]

Arcane: Generic Fantasy Flavoured magic - A wizard waves his arms around, says the right words, and uses the correct ingredients to complete their formula to manipulate reality.
Divine: God flavoured magic - A cleric waves his arms around, says the right prayer and presents his divine focus, causing his patron to warp reality for them.
Psychic: "Real world" flavoured magic - The psychic wills reality to change with pure understanding of reality (whether it comes from drug trips, dreams, self-perfection, research) and reality contorts to his whims.

Edit: Seems like that the player companion for occult adventures will have new kineticist two elements written by Mark, with those elements being Wood and Void.

[Psyren]

Wood and Void = acid and sonic simple blasts?

[Xuldarinar]

Void Kineticist? Im.. actually quite curious how they will approach that.

Given that Aether already covers the void described as an elemental wizard school, I assume it will be closer to void as described with the Void Domain. But even then.. I'm not certain what to expect. Only that I am excited.

[Milo v3]

I hope it's
Wood: Bludgeon (physical) & Positive Energy (Energy)
Void: Piercing (physical) & Negative Energy (Energy)

[Segev]

Arcane: Generic Fantasy Flavoured magic - A wizard waves his arms around, says the right words, and uses the correct ingredients to complete their formula to manipulate reality.
Divine: God flavoured magic - A cleric waves his arms around, says the right prayer and presents his divine focus, causing his patron to warp reality for them.
Psychic: "Real world" flavoured magic - The psychic wills reality to change with pure understanding of reality (whether it comes from drug trips, dreams, self-perfection, research) and reality contorts to his whims.

Um.

I don't think that's a very good definition for "psychic," on a number of levels. For one thing, it really does still describe an aspect of Arcane magic. For another, I'm pretty sure that calling it "real world" is opening a can of worms and debate that will tread all over the line between what's allowed on this forum and what isn't, since there are enough religious traditions surrounding whether and how magic "really works" in the real world that making claims one way or the other will probably start offending people's faiths by calling one or another "false."

(In addition, vancian-style spell slots STILL fails to match most real-world beliefs about how magic is done. Power points might be closer to those which believe there's an energy that's expended. That said, I'm no expert on real-world occult practices, so I am not about to try to discuss where the energies are believed to come from nor how they're channelled, certainly not to a depth of detail sufficient to discuss how to model them in mechanics beyond what I've already said.)

[Milo v3]

Um.

I don't think that's a very good definition for "psychic," on a number of levels. For one thing, it really does still describe an aspect of Arcane magic. For another, I'm pretty sure that calling it "real world" is opening a can of worms and debate that will tread all over the line between what's allowed on this forum and what isn't, since there are enough religious traditions surrounding whether and how magic "really works" in the real world that making claims one way or the other will probably start offendingc people's faiths by calling one or another "false."

How does it describe arcane magic? Arcane magic isn't a mental thing aside from concentration checks and needing the necessary mental state to cast it, while psychic magic has a giant focus on the mental side of things.. I mean they can't even cast most spells if they are too angry or scared.

Real world in this case refers to things like psychics, mediums, cultists, gurus, etc. in the modern era regardless of whether they are real or fictitious.

In addition, vancian-style spell slots STILL fails to match any media example at all about how magic is done.

Fixed that for ya

But yeah, vancian style doesn't work with flavour of magic. But the rest of the mechanics and abilities fit psychic magic rather well.

[Gemini476]

Hey, Vancian magic fits the magic in Jack Vance's books!

Or, well, kind of. In those books they only know very few spells and have even fewer prepared simultaneously and they're pretty much per-encounter abilities since they don't take much time to rememorize. And that includes the big spells. And I don't think there's any requirement for rest, either.

So Vancian magic doesn't really fit it at all, really, beyond the general concept of preparing spells in advance and forgetting them on use.

[Segev]

How does it describe arcane magic? Arcane magic isn't a mental thing aside from concentration checks and needing the necessary mental state to cast it, while psychic magic has a giant focus on the mental side of things.. I mean they can't even cast most spells if they are too angry or scared.

Real world in this case refers to things like psychics, mediums, cultists, gurus, etc. in the modern era regardless of whether they are real or fictitious.

The thing is, all the waving of hands and using material components in arcane magic is supposed to represent the same kind of things that these "real-world" examples are doing. Voodoo, hoodoo, the magic of sympathy, chanting to focus your mental energy into world-altering effects, ritualized kata and performing seals with your hands...

Any time this is not directly calling upon your faith in a divine source to beg it rituallistically to help you, it's falling into the patterns meant to be represented by Arcane magic.

If anything, it's a fault of the fan community and possibly bleedback into the writing pool that has made arcane magic be treated as silly and derided as totally unlike "real world magic." The majority of the elements so mocked, especially in arcane magic, are derived from the trappings of magical practices. Even the whole "focus and concentration" thing is wrapped up in the risk of having your spell disrupted. It's why you need concentration checks to cast while under certain mental conditions. It's "focusing through your fear" or the like.




On a different note, can you tell that a psychic magic user has cast a spell if the spell itself has no visible component? Is a psychic magic user able to get away with Charm Person in a tense diplomatic situtaion with lots of guards on either side because nobody can tell he's whammying the other side one by one? I know that a sorcerer who tried that would be shot by the ones he didn't whammy the moment they realized he'd cast a spell. And they'd realize the sudden shift in attitude of their buddy was corrolated with said hand-waving and chanting.

Even 3.5 (and presumably DSP) psionics requires at least a concentration check to suppress manifestation effects. Does psychic magic have any such limitation?

(I'm also unconvinced that it's worthwhile to have the psychic magic equivalents of still and silent spell. It seems to me the only times you're denied ability to use the emotional and mental components are times you'd not WANT to be able to, such as when dominated or charmed into acting against your normal interests.)

[Milo v3]

The thing is, all the waving of hands and using material components in arcane magic is supposed to represent the same kind of things that these "real-world" examples are doing. Voodoo, hoodoo, the magic of sympathy, chanting to focus your mental energy into world-altering effects, ritualized kata and performing seals with your hands...

Any time this is not directly calling upon your faith in a divine source to beg it rituallistically to help you, it's falling into the patterns meant to be represented by Arcane magic.

If anything, it's a fault of the fan community and possibly bleedback into the writing pool that has made arcane magic be treated as silly and derided as totally unlike "real world magic." The majority of the elements so mocked, especially in arcane magic, are derived from the trappings of magical practices. Even the whole "focus and concentration" thing is wrapped up in the risk of having your spell disrupted. It's why you need concentration checks to cast while under certain mental conditions. It's "focusing through your fear" or the like.

I've actually seen real cultists doing rituals and spells, and I can tell you there really isn't somatic components involved with that they're doing. It is mainly emotion, mindset, and focus combined with knowledge on the subject. There are some components, like reciting a spell to give you a name. But that's because a name has more weight when spoken. Another component would be hallucinogens... that was a common "Component: M", which is likely why Psychedelia is a psychic discipline... But those things weren't anywhere near as important as the mental state.

On a different note, can you tell that a psychic magic user has cast a spell if the spell itself has no visible component? Is a psychic magic user able to get away with Charm Person in a tense diplomatic situtaion with lots of guards on either side because nobody can tell he's whammying the other side one by one? I know that a sorcerer who tried that would be shot by the ones he didn't whammy the moment they realized he'd cast a spell. And they'd realize the sudden shift in attitude of their buddy was corrolated with said hand-waving and chanting.

All spells have visual effects during casting, there is no more difficultly identifying psychic spells than there is identifying a still silent arcane spell.

[Mehangel]

I think I have seen a couple of books make a specific effort to incorporate vancian casting.

1st) Was a forgotten realms book (I dont remember the title, it may have been Cormyr: a novel, or it may have been Death of a Dragon; not sure) involving the eldest Obarskyrs daughter. She was fighting in a war, and saw that the opponent started off with Fireballs (a level 3 spell) then starting shooting Acid Arrows (2nd level spell) and had now progressed to the use of Magic Missiles (a level 1 spell). With this in mind she had her army charge the enemy knowing that the the enemy was likely low on spells.

2nd) Was another forgotten realms book, (Again I dont know if it was one of the 'Last Mythal Trilogy' or if it was 'Realms of the Elves') But I seem to recall mention in the book that there was discussion of how magic had vancian limitations due to various explanations.

3rd) Was one of the Dungeons and Dragons paperback books, (I have a really bad memory when it comes to names, but it was probably either: Return of the Damned or The Bloody Eye.) Anyways it had Mialee, Nebin and/or Hennet discussing either why wizards had to prepare their spells and/or what spells they were to prepare and how many of each.

[Psyren]

On a different note, can you tell that a psychic magic user has cast a spell if the spell itself has no visible component? Is a psychic magic user able to get away with Charm Person in a tense diplomatic situtaion with lots of guards on either side because nobody can tell he's whammying the other side one by one? I know that a sorcerer who tried that would be shot by the ones he didn't whammy the moment they realized he'd cast a spell. And they'd realize the sudden shift in attitude of their buddy was corrolated with said hand-waving and chanting.

I brought this up in the playtest and apparently even spells with no verbal or somatic component have something noticeable to those nearby. Now, this isn't exactly earth-shattering - SLAs still provoke AoO after all - but it does raise the question of what exactly constitutes "nearby."

It does however appear that, without a verbal or somatic component to observe, all they will know is that you cast something, and no details beyond that.

[Vhaidara]

Mehangel, the problem with those examples is that they were written to match the casting style used in DnD. That's they only reason hat it fits them.

[Ssalarn]

Hey, Vancian magic fits the magic in Jack Vance's books!

Or, well, kind of. In those books they only know very few spells and have even fewer prepared simultaneously and they're pretty much per-encounter abilities since they don't take much time to rememorize. And that includes the big spells. And I don't think there's any requirement for rest, either.

So Vancian magic doesn't really fit it at all, really, beyond the general concept of preparing spells in advance and forgetting them on use.

That's really funny, I was just pointing out in a Paizo thread how Vancian magic doesn't even match Jack Vance's work, let alone anything else in media. It's a weird beast, completely unique to D&D and it's inheritors. Honestly, while I know it has its fans, I think it's probably the biggest issue the system has, since the faulty design assumptions behind it are a big part of martial/caster disparity. Also, 9th level casters, particularly those with open lists like the Wizard and Cleric, hit a point where they do stuff that puts the Greek and Roman pantheons to shame, let alone most fantasy wizards (there might be a couple anime that feature characters of similar power).

Anywho, definitely agreed that it's a weird system to use for classes that are supposed to embody new age mysticism and pre-modern occultism.

I think I have seen a couple of books make a specific effort to incorporate vancian casting.

****

Basically, just the books specifically modeled after D&D and written with the express purpose of growing the D&D fanbase. And what I find funny, is that even most D&D authors don't actually model Vancian casting, even if they supposedly are using it as a base. Read any of Ed Greenwood's Elminster books sometimes; Elminster is constantly breaking down memorized spells to use the energy to power healing, or other spells, or using a pool of internal energy to craft a spell on the fly, etc. I can't think of a single instance of anyone who isn't an apprentice using an actual spellbook. Basically all of his characters who use magic immediately gain some ability to not treat it like traditional Vancian magic, instead using it as more of a generic pool of magical energy they can craft any spell they've learned out of (kind of like point-based psionics).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Off topic, but the pathfinder book I've read that most mimics PF mechanics is City of the Fallen Sky. There's even a point where the main character, an alchemist, levels up and learns a new discovery (Wings).

[Slithery D]

T
(I'm also unconvinced that it's worthwhile to have the psychic magic equivalents of still and silent spell. It seems to me the only times you're denied ability to use the emotional and mental components are times you'd not WANT to be able to, such as when dominated or charmed into acting against your normal interests.)

I can't see this for the emotional component, at least. There are all kinds of ways to get hit with a shaken effect. There's also some ways (spells, discipline abilities) available to psychics to get around fear effects, but if you don't have those...

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm currently in the planning phase for an unchained monk archetype based on unlocking chakras. Any suggestions for what I should include? Here's what I've got so far:

• Chakra Initiate, Adept, and Master added to bonus feat list at levels 2/10/14
• Bonus equal to 1/2 class level on saves to resist the dangers of the kundali flow
• Can spend one point of ki or serpent-fire ki as a swift action to enter a serpent-fire trance for Wis modifier rounds (minimum 1)
• For the duration of the serpent-fire trance opening and maintaining chakras does not take an action and does not require ki expenditure, but only one chakra can be awakened/used per round as normal
• Awakening a chakra extends the duration of an ongoing serpent-fire trance by 1 round
• Heart Chakra cannot be used on a particular target more than once per trance and spending 1 ki point increases the uses per target by 1 per ki point spent (e.g. spending 2 ki lets you use it 3 times per target)
• Abilities that scale with the number of awakened chakras use 1/2 class level instead (e.g. Root gives DR/– equal to 1/2 class level, Navel deals 1d8 per 2 levels, etc)
• Starting at 8th level, can spend 1 extra point of ki (2 total) as part of entering a serpent-fire trance to awaken all available chakras simultaneously (can still only use one power per round, or two with the Crown, or three with Chakra Master) in exchange for taking 1d6 damage per chakra awakened; cost increases to 2 extra points of ki (3 total) at level 14

Any suggestions for other things to add? I plan to have it replace the ki powers are 2/6/10/14/18, and it's going to be an intentionally powerful archetype. The uMonk is a bit lacking in options, and this would give them quite a few more. I'm also going to include a sidebar about how DMs who think the uMonk is a bit underpowered could give the benefits of the archetype without requiring that the class give anything up in return.

[Ssalarn]

I can't see this for the emotional component, at least. There are all kinds of ways to get hit with a shaken effect. There's also some ways (spells, discipline abilities) available to psychics to get around fear effects, but if you don't have those...

Hey, we've finally got casters that can actually be dealt with by martial opponents. Let's not spoil it just yet.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

And the concentration check DC is through the roof for though components. Makes psychic gishes quite difficult.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

With the discussion about OA magic being too Vancian to distinguish itself, I wonder if one of the many Spell Point variants created over the years would be a good fit if someone wanted to tweak it for their games. It might make 'Psychic Magic' a sort of midpoint between Magic and Psionics, mechanically.

[Slithery D]

I'm surprised there's no scroll equivalent for psychic casters, but it looks like the ACG spell crystal matrices do work, so psychics can join sorcerers in the "I'll show mine if you show me yours" economy for shared spell lists.

And the concentration check DC is through the roof for though components. Makes psychic gishes quite difficult.

Yeah, but for most psychic casters I think forgoing the move action to center (losing the +10 DC penalty) will be enough.

At 11th level Mimic Metamagic phrenic major amplification is a cheap way to avoid this problem for Psychics who don't want to burn a feat and need the "oh crap" escape button when fighting something literally scary.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

What? You can have psychic scrolls just fine.

[Serafina]

The Laundry Files RPG - which is quite occult as well, it's basically Call of Cthulu with spies and computers - actually has something similar to Vancian casting as part of it's magic system.

Normally, magic there takes quite a while to cast. Rituals with chanting and sacrifices and such takes hours, the very dangerous mental magic still takes several minutes. Computers can actually perform it really quickly, in under a minute. There is no daily limit to any such casting, beyond the naturally occurring ones naturally (if it takes 4 hours to do, you can't do it more than 6 times per day obviously).

However, a skilled sorcerer can cast a spell via any of the above methods - but leave a dangling trigger which they can later activate within just a few seconds. A skilled sorcerer can even have more triggers active.
That's basically what vancian casting was always supposed to be - your wizard doesn't just sit there and read a book, he actually performs all the rituals necessary for the spells. That just breaks down because the rules barely mention it, the players rarely bother with it and because you can somehow squeeze dozens of such rituals into a single hour of preparation.

[Arbane]

However, a skilled sorcerer can cast a spell via any of the above methods - but leave a dangling trigger which they can later activate within just a few seconds. A skilled sorcerer can even have more triggers active.
That's basically what vancian casting was always supposed to be - your wizard doesn't just sit there and read a book, he actually performs all the rituals necessary for the spells. That just breaks down because the rules barely mention it, the players rarely bother with it and because you can somehow squeeze dozens of such rituals into a single hour of preparation.

The one other place I've seen 'Vancian' magic outside of D&D and related was the Merlin of Amber books by Zelazny - Merlin had a time-consuming way to pre-cast and 'hang' spells around himself so they could be activated quickly.

[Segev]

The one other place I've seen 'Vancian' magic outside of D&D and related was the Merlin of Amber books by Zelazny - Merlin had a time-consuming way to pre-cast and 'hang' spells around himself so they could be activated quickly.

Yeah, that's where my own personal canon about what's happening when you prepare and case spells in D&D got its root. I thought Merlin's method and explanation was much more sensible than what I'd read in the 1e AD&D book about forgetting the spell once you'd cast it.

[wingnut2292]

I've seen a lot of reaction to the Kinetisist and the Medium, but what do people think about the Spiritualist? I mean it's a Summoner-analog and I'm pretty sure the unchained variety at that. How does the Spiritualist stack up vs the (Unchained) Summoner? I've heard that the Summoner was T2, the Synthesist archetype is T1 and the Unchained Summoner was lower-T2.

I want to like the Kineticist. I view the Kinetisist in the same vane as the Gunslinger or Soulbow - The unlimited arrows archer. (Which was what I understood was Pazio's goal - they didn't want to make a Dragonfire Adept, et all.) For extended utility I'd give them minor and major creation at the proper levels but limited to objects of their element or some other expanded use of the basic elemental manipulation they get at first level.

I don't like burn, I'm sad they kept it.

I'd rather they had an ability drain system like 1d2 point random physical ability drain for the low level stuff, and 1d2 random physical and mental ability drain for the high level burn stuff. Yes this will affect modifiers - that the point. Str drain affects carrying capacity (and damage for the odd occasion we're not flinging blasts around), dex affects AC and reflex, con affects fort (and you die at 0 Con). The mental effects later on simulate mental exhaustion (your head's foggy, you can't remember things as fast, you're not as observant, and because of your mental exhaustion you're short/testy/gruff with others.)

Or, I'd rather a fatigue check system where I take burn and make a say DC 15?/17?/20? Fort check, with my new burn score (that is, any existing burn plus any new burn I accept) as a penalty to my fort check. Fail onec and I'm fatigued. Fail again and I'm staggered. Fail again and I'm unconscious. Almost like Green Ronin's True20 casting system.