Vestige-less Binder ?.......

[Qoios]

This is definitely something worth giving attention to and consider as an option. However.......

I would retain the priority mechanism. It creates greater depth of choice, allows additional flexibility, but with more limits than plain unbinding. I just think it is a good thing for the class, and I don't see it as over-complexifying.

Balance-wise, I see where the notion's coming from, but now I suddenly have 2 more dead levels to deal with: 7, 9, 13, 14, 17, 19 & 20 (11th was previously included by mistake).
That's an increase.
Suddenly 12th level becomes a very tempting exit point, knowing that nothing's gonna happen in the next 2 levels (and 15th is no big news).

I'd prefer to keep the cooldowns specific to each power, rather than pooled it just allows for greater diversity of power selections for all tiers (some Least-tier powers might have long cooldowns, and some Superior-tier powers might have none at all).

Not enough coverage.
3 levels taken care of (9/14/19), 4 levels still dead (7/13/17/20), 1 level double-featured (4).
Spheres aside, I have no idea what to put in them that would spell out "Binder" (other than the Planar Binding line, which I'm not sure we want as autonomous class features).

I had actually been considering letting Planar Bindings in, but requiring that you trade out a bound sphere for its use (Planar Binding is super-strong, if used well), and you can only bind things appropriate to that Sphere's theme and Tier priority (thus keeping the super-flexibility of PB in check, as well).

Also, Spirit shaman has a lot of abilities worth considering, and extrapolating from. They're very specific and limited to spirit-affecting effects, which makes them tame enough that they can be valued rather cheaply.

have no idea what Qoios is cooking, but we already agreed that there won't be any sphere-detached attack mode.

ToB maneuvers were designed based on 3 things: RL martial arts, anime, and needs that derive from 3.Xe's mechanics (e.g. overcoming DR)
I don't think attack modes will be designed around that trio, so basically anything goes (your proposals might even already be in Qoios' mind... IDK).
Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Maneuvers won't enter into it, but you're right on the money with the elemental concepts.

As to the tier names: Superficial/Exceptional/Magnificent/Primordial? Just off the top of my head.

[SkipSandwich]

[/snip]

Maneuvers won't enter into it, but you're right on the money with the elemental concepts.

As to the tier names: Superficial/Exceptional/Magnificent/Primordial? Just off the top of my head.

I like those Tier names. As for the combat methods, I think a mix of weapon-like abilities and/or thematic combat buffs would be appropriate, with the only requirements being having that sphere bound and perhaps a move action to activate/switch between (like forming a Mind Blade).

Fire: throw fireballs as ranged splash weapons, can make itierative attacks, but have low range (basicly act as if you had a endless supply of souped up alchemist's fire). Further levels increase damage and add additional options (focused splash, splash damage increases to 2/die and can apply precision damage effects, but only hits a single adjacent square, free Rapid Shot/Multishot)

Water/Earth I both see as being very battlefield control focused, with water being AoE and Trip focused with Earth being Bull Rush/Grapple focused, both should get abilities that allow them to overcome size disadvantage as level increases

Air: Mobility focused for sure, but not yet sure in what way would be the most fun and appropriate

[nonsi]

I would retain the priority mechanism. It creates greater depth of choice, allows additional flexibility, but with more limits than plain unbinding. I just think it is a good thing for the class, and I don't see it as over-complexifying.

I'm Ok with the priority mechanism and I'm Ok with nixing it.
What matters is how spheres interact with the choice and that there are no dead levels.
Since you're the one that has the spheres at leas partially figured out, you probably can "feel the air" better than I can.
Assuming my proposed progression on post #57 is very close to the final result, it's now up to you to tailor spheres around that while taking the souped-up Warlock notion into account so that neither cancels out the other.

I'd prefer to keep the cooldowns specific to each power, rather than pooled it just allows for greater diversity of power selections for all tiers (some Least-tier powers might have long cooldowns, and some Superior-tier powers might have none at all).

Ditto on Warlock.

I had actually been considering letting Planar Bindings in, but requiring that you trade out a bound sphere for its use (Planar Binding is super-strong, if used well), and you can only bind things appropriate to that Sphere's theme and Tier priority (thus keeping the super-flexibility of PB in check, as well).

Planar Binding is super-strong, yes, but remember that arcanists can eventually cast it (to its various levels) #12 / day without even putting strategy into it, so i'm not sure it's worth its weight in sphere.

Also, Spirit shaman has a lot of abilities worth considering, and extrapolating from. They're very specific and limited to spirit-affecting effects, which makes them tame enough that they can be valued rather cheaply.

Yes, Ghost Warrior did slip my mind. It's just that I have no vacant place for it and nothing to trade. I could make an exception and allow a double-featured level, but if I have only one such level, it will stick out.
It does feel like a feature that has a right of its own to be among the Binder's features though.

I'm not sure about other Spirit Shaman features, because a binder is not a spirit shaman at theme. I also don't see a binder as having some kind of companion/familiar/guide.
Exorcism can be adopted and expressed as Dismissal effect, equally applicable vs. all outsiders, so it can be sphere-detached.
Spirit form can just be some power of the Ethereal/Astral/Shadow sphere (all can be associated with incorporeality).

As to the tier names: Superficial/Exceptional/Magnificent/Primordial? Just off the top of my head.

I'm Ok with _______ / Exceptional / Legendary / Primordial.
Nothing sounds right for T1 so far (Least... Superficial... Novice... Initiate....... see what I mean? Everything sounds plain or out of context).

[Qoios]

I'm Ok with the priority mechanism and I'm Ok with nixing it.
What matters is how spheres interact with the choice and that there are no dead levels.
Since you're the one that has the spheres at leas partially figured out, you probably can "feel the air" better than I can.
Assuming my proposed progression on post #57 is very close to the final result, it's now up to you to tailor spheres around that while taking the souped-up Warlock notion into account so that neither cancels out the other.
...
Ditto on Warlock.

Aye-aye, cap'n.

Planar Binding is super-strong, yes, but remember that arcanists can eventually cast it (to its various levels) #12 / day without even putting strategy into it, so i'm not sure it's worth its weight in sphere.

You make a good point, but those kinds of abilities (amongst others) are what make arcane casters Tier 1 so easily.

That said, perhaps just the actives or the combat mechanism? Either one seems like a fairer trade.

Yes, Ghost Warrior did slip my mind. It's just that I have no vacant place for it and nothing to trade. I could make an exception and allow a double-featured level, but if I have only one such level, it will stick out.
It does feel like a feature that has a right of its own to be among the Binder's features though.

I'm not sure about other Spirit Shaman features, because a binder is not a spirit shaman at theme. I also don't see a binder as having some kind of companion/familiar/guide.
Exorcism can be adopted and expressed as Dismissal effect, equally applicable vs. all outsiders, so it can be sphere-detached.
Spirit form can just be some power of the Ethereal/Astral/Shadow sphere (all can be associated with incorporeality).

I will post a more specific proposed list with the first batch of spheres.

I'm Ok with _______ / Exceptional / Legendary / Primordial.
Nothing sounds right for T1 so far (Least... Superficial... Novice... Initiate....... see what I mean? Everything sounds plain or out of context).

Oh...I was rather fond of Superficial...

I will continue to posit ideas on that.

I like those Tier names. As for the combat methods, I think a mix of weapon-like abilities and/or thematic combat buffs would be appropriate, with the only requirements being having that sphere bound and perhaps a move action to activate/switch between (like forming a Mind Blade).

Fire: throw fireballs as ranged splash weapons, can make itierative attacks, but have low range (basicly act as if you had a endless supply of souped up alchemist's fire). Further levels increase damage and add additional options (focused splash, splash damage increases to 2/die and can apply precision damage effects, but only hits a single adjacent square, free Rapid Shot/Multishot)

Water/Earth I both see as being very battlefield control focused, with water being AoE and Trip focused with Earth being Bull Rush/Grapple focused, both should get abilities that allow them to overcome size disadvantage as level increases

Air: Mobility focused for sure, but not yet sure in what way would be the most fun and appropriate

You are definitely on the right track. Excellent ideas, there. Keep in mind, though that these need to compete with (if fall slightly short of) Eldritch blast and all of its augmentations. So balancing them will be a bit of a wrestle

[SkipSandwich]

On cooldowns, the recharge magic varient in UA has precedent for both general AND fixed cooldowns applying on a case for case basis, so no reason we have to pick one or the other.

[Qoios]

On cooldowns, the recharge magic varient in UA has precedent for both general AND fixed cooldowns applying on a case for case basis, so no reason we have to pick one or the other.

Precedent may exist, but that system was disgustingly clunky as a result of it. I will be sticking to the cooldown mechanism I have specified unless a very strong argument against it is presented to me.

[SkipSandwich]

Precedent may exist, but that system was disgustingly clunky as a result of it. I will be sticking to the cooldown mechanism I have specified unless a very strong argument against it is presented to me.

Fair enough, since I agree 100% of the clunky-ness of UA Recharge Magic RAW. I just figured that since we're organizing the abilities into tiers anyway, it followed that, for the most part, abilities of a certain power level (tier) would have similar spam-ability as other abilities of that power level, barring obvious exceptions like pretty much any non-instantaneous, non-passive ability, effects such as Entangle, Grease, Wall of Fire/Ice/Stone/Whatever.

Perhaps instead of a cooldown modifier for Legendary/Primordial powers, we take a page from Hellfire Warlock and institute a non-trivial cost of some sort. Ability or HP Burn (can only be healed by natural rest) comes to mind, 5 HP per Legendary Power and 10 per Primordial, perhaps, either as a base cost or to fuel some sort of augment or rider effect. If follows the fluff after all, that unlike a sorcerer or warlock whose power is innate, the Binder's pacts come with a cost.

[Qoios]

Fair enough, since I agree 100% of the clunky-ness of UA Recharge Magic RAW. I just figured that since we're organizing the abilities into tiers anyway, it followed that, for the most part, abilities of a certain power level (tier) would have similar spam-ability as other abilities of that power level, barring obvious exceptions like pretty much any non-instantaneous, non-passive ability, effects such as Entangle, Grease, Wall of Fire/Ice/Stone/Whatever.

I get what you are saying, but there are likely not going to be any Active Abilities that are instantaneous, and there are definitely not going to be any that are passive, at all. Literally everything on a cooldown fits the bill of what you're calling exceptions...

Besides which, certain things are powerful for different reasons. Cooldowns will be predominantly based on how long-lasting and wide-spread of an effect an ability has on a battle. Not to mention the complete lack of multiple Primordial powers on a character at a time, given our current structure, which means that collective cooldowns for tiers would have no discernible effect on Primordial powers anyway. I would rather give them something of that tier that they can have 100% up-time on, if possible, given that they'll be compared to nonsi's Warlock, who will have 3 Grand Invocations to make use of with no cooldowns at all. That one Primordial ability has to be a real workhorse.

Perhaps instead of a cooldown modifier for Legendary/Primordial powers, we take a page from Hellfire Warlock and institute a non-trivial cost of some sort. Ability or HP Burn (can only be healed by natural rest) comes to mind, 5 HP per Legendary Power and 10 per Primordial, perhaps, either as a base cost or to fuel some sort of augment or rider effect. If follows the fluff after all, that unlike a sorcerer or warlock whose power is innate, the Binder's pacts come with a cost.

Not a snowball's chance in Avernus. That's not happening. The Sphere Binder's (simultaneous) ability access scaling compensates sufficiently for the greater (non-simultaneous) ability access, when compared to nonsi's Warlock. I will not impose a taxation on the usage of their intrinsic abilities.

One of the greatest selling features of a Binder or Warlock is that they don't run out of steam any faster than their mundane companions, and need never fear the 15-minute workday, and that's a selling point I intend to keep. I would only consider a cost like this for something that is actually comparable to nonsi's Warlock's Overcharge (Intrinsic Hellfire, basically). Something that provides a boost to an existing ability, to be used only when in real need of the boosted power. Even then, I'd oppose it, because, I want no such ability in the class to begin with, as that feels like it steps on the toes of nonsi's Warlock.

I really do appreciate the help you are trying to provide, but I feel as though you should read nonsi's Warlock writeup, thoroughly, in order to gain a better grasp of the comparisons we are making.

[nonsi]

You make a good point, but those kinds of abilities (amongst others) are what make arcane casters Tier 1 so easily.

That said, perhaps just the actives or the combat mechanism? Either one seems like a fairer trade.

I wouldn't strip a character of his defenses or ability to fight back.
Since actives serve as utility & debuffs, seems appropriate that they're exchanged for Planar Binding, with 2 restrictions:
1. Planar Binding is relevant only to the plane represented by the bound sphere.
2. Developing a habit of binding creatures to be used as cannon fodder would most definitely carry harsh repercussions.

I will post a more specific proposed list with the first batch of spheres.

Ok. 2 issues that come to mind:
1. Levels 1, 2 & 3 seem a bit anemic to me compared to most properly designed classes, which are somewhat frontloaded (and for a good reason).
2. I still don't know your angle regarding my proposal to making the binder always attuned to some sphere(s) and only swapping bindings (meaning 1/2/3/4 swappings at levels 1st/5th/10th/15th..... maybe also 20th). My assumption in this proposal is that each player becomes accustomed to using certain effects and that without special knowledge of what's to come ahead (more often than not, the make-sense scenario when adventuring), you don't usually have any motivation of breaking habit, so you don't really ever need the ability to rewrite your entire repertoire beforehand. And 2 levels after this has any implications whatsoever, you can already reorganize.

If we had something nice and not over the top to add to levels 1-2-3, and put Ghost Warrior at 8th and Dismissal at 14th (as additional features), then a 5th daily swap at 20th would make a nice symmetry of features.


Another thought that came to mind...
Slowly but surely appropriate class features accumulate (Ghost Warrior / Dismissal / 5th daily binding / hopefully something nice for 1-2-3), so maybe we should reconsider SkipSandwich's proposal to batch the progression of sphere powers around levels 1/6/11/16.
I mean, "finally" gaining access to Greater (=Legendary) powers of your secondary sphere – eight levels(!) after your primary sphere. What can I say… "Yay"
That goes double for Lesser (=Exceptional) powers of your tertiary sphere – 14 levels after your primary sphere ("thanks for nothing" ).

If we go with SkipSandwich's proposal, it would only leave levels 7/13/14/19 empty.
- Ghost Warrior would come at 7th.
- Dismissal would come at 13th. Same as the Spirit Shaman's Exorcism (and Spirit Shaman = full caster).
Now there are only 2 levels to worry about.

I could live with 14th being empty, given BAB & saves all improve (but that's only if you don't multiclass - which i wouldn't wanna take into account as design strategy).
I'm also sure we can find something appropriate for 19th.
(maybe Raise Dead & Resurrection respectively – the ability to re-bind souls to their deceased bodies – with a greatly diminished frequency compared to divine casters, but at no cost).

Oh...I was rather fond of Superficial...

It just sounds so unimpressive – the exact opposite of what "Binder" vibrates.

[Qoios]

I wouldn't strip a character of his defenses or ability to fight back.
Since actives serve as utility & debuffs, seems appropriate that they're exchanged for Planar Binding, with 2 restrictions:
1. Planar Binding is relevant only to the plane represented by the bound sphere.
2. Developing a habit of binding creatures to be used as cannon fodder would most definitely carry harsh repercussions.

Sounds exactly like what I had in mind.

Ok. 2 issues that come to mind:
1. Levels 1, 2 & 3 seem a bit anemic to me compared to most properly designed classes, which are somewhat frontloaded (and for a good reason).

I will conjure up some goodies for them at low levels.

2. I still don't know your angle regarding my proposal to making the binder always attuned to some sphere(s) and only swapping bindings (meaning 1/2/3/4 swappings at levels 1st/5th/10th/15th..... maybe also 20th). My assumption in this proposal is that each player becomes accustomed to using certain effects and that without special knowledge of what's to come ahead (more often than not, the make-sense scenario when adventuring), you don't usually have any motivation of breaking habit, so you don't really ever need the ability to rewrite your entire repertoire beforehand. And 2 levels after this has any implications whatsoever, you can already reorganize.

I like it. It further exemplifies the Binder's adaptability, without needing the daily reselection of pacts.

If we had something nice and not over the top to add to levels 1-2-3, and put Ghost Warrior at 8th and Dismissal at 14th (as additional features), then a 5th daily swap at 20th would make a nice symmetry of features.

Another thought that came to mind...
Slowly but surely appropriate class features accumulate (Ghost Warrior / Dismissal / 5th daily binding / hopefully something nice for 1-2-3), so maybe we should reconsider SkipSandwich's proposal to batch the progression of sphere powers around levels 1/6/11/16.
I mean, "finally" gaining access to Greater (=Legendary) powers of your secondary sphere – eight levels(!) after your primary sphere. What can I say… "Yay"
That goes double for Lesser (=Exceptional) powers of your tertiary sphere – 14 levels after your primary sphere ("thanks for nothing" ).

If we go with SkipSandwich's proposal, it would only leave levels 7/13/14/19 empty.
- Ghost Warrior would come at 7th.
- Dismissal would come at 13th. Same as the Spirit Shaman's Exorcism (and Spirit Shaman = full caster).
Now there are only 2 levels to worry about.

I could live with 14th being empty, given BAB & saves all improve (but that's only if you don't multiclass - which i wouldn't wanna take into account as design strategy).
I'm also sure we can find something appropriate for 19th.
(maybe Raise Dead & Resurrection respectively – the ability to re-bind souls to their deceased bodies – with a greatly diminished frequency compared to divine casters, but at no cost).

I like almost all of these ideas. I was considering resurrection effects as actives for certain spheres, but I like it better this way. I will present a proposed new class table with my first sphere write-ups.

It just sounds so unimpressive – the exact opposite of what "Binder" vibrates.

I like the escalation, personally. I think it appropriate that they grow from making unimpressive deals with imps and lantern archons, all the way to twisting pit lords and star archons to your will with pacts that would make Mephistopheles jealous. Superficial and Primordial at opposite ends gave that vibe, I thought.

[nonsi]

I will conjure up some goodies for them at low levels.

I was considering batching Suppress Signs & Suppress Mental Taint under a single feature "Suppress Influence" that allows choosing either or both.
That way:
1. It'll make the level (2nd I'm guessing) feel like it has "more meat on them bones".
2. Now we only need 2 features: one for the now empty level (3rd I'm guessing) and another minor feature for 1st (optional).

I like the escalation, personally. I think it appropriate that they grow from making unimpressive deals with imps and lantern archons, all the way to twisting pit lords and star archons to your will with pacts that would make Mephistopheles jealous. Superficial and Primordial at opposite ends gave that vibe, I thought.

IDK. "Superficial" sounds like the binder is not even trying hard enough.
Now that I think of it, Initial/Minor both sound acceptable.
If I go for "Initial", it would be just that.
"Minor" would probably be followed by "Moderate", then "Major" then _______ something.

Sounds exactly like what I had in mind.


I like it. It further exemplifies the Binder's adaptability, without needing the daily reselection of pacts.


I like almost all of these ideas. I was considering resurrection effects as actives for certain spheres, but I like it better this way. I will present a proposed new class table with my first sphere write-ups.

Then I guess there's not much more for me to do now but wait and see what comes out of your cauldron...

[Qoios]

I was considering batching Suppress Signs & Suppress Mental Taint under a single feature "Suppress Influence" that allows choosing either or both.
That way:
1. It'll make the level (2nd I'm guessing) feel like it has "more meat on them bones".
2. Now we only need 2 features: one for the now empty level (3rd I'm guessing) and another minor feature for 1st (optional).

I am on board for these changes.

IDK. "Superficial" sounds like the binder is not even trying hard enough.
Now that I think of it, Initial/Minor both sound acceptable.
If I go for "Initial", it would be just that.
"Minor" would probably be followed by "Moderate", then "Major" then _______ something.

How about "Fundamental->Essential->Magisterial->Primordial"?

Then I guess there's not much more for me to do now but wait and see what comes out of your cauldron...

Expect a content-post by tomorrow night.

[nonsi]

How about "Fundamental->Essential->Magisterial->Primordial"?

"Fundamental" is awesome. I can't imagine us topping that.
"Essentia"... basically everything that's effective could become essential at a given moment.
"Magisterial" describes someone's majestic presence / authority. Powers just are.
"Primordial" is ok I guess.

Given that tier names should describe the powers themselves, not the one wielding them, right now my gut feeling says: Fundamental-Exceptional-Legendary-Cosmic
(even though "Cosmic" sounds somewhat pompous).

Expect a content-post by tomorrow night.

I most certainly will, but if it's tomorrow night GiantITP time, then it'll take me several hours to get to it, because I'll have my hands full with something.

[Qoios]

"Fundamental" is awesome. I can't imagine us topping that.
"Essential"... basically everything that's effective could become essential at a given moment.
"Magisterial" describes someone's majestic presence / authority. Powers just are.
"Primordial" is ok I guess.

Given that tier names should describe the powers themselves, not the one wielding them, right now my gut feeling says: Fundamental-Exceptional-Legendary-Cosmic
(even though "Cosmic" sounds somewhat pompous).

I don't really like Exceptional or Legendary. Those are just so over-used, I feel.
Hmmm...
How about naming them not for the powers gained from the pacts, but for the grandeur of the spirit with whom that pact is formed?
"Trivial->Formidable->Magisterial->Archetypal"?
I know that Trivial sounds minor, but in all honesty, it is supposed to. The first tier should be low-key, after all.

[nonsi]

I don't really like Exceptional or Legendary. Those are just so over-used, I feel.

Maybe you're getting that vibe because of all the Mythos activity going around lately.
I don't remember those being use frequently (or at all, off the top of my head) outside of Mythos context (and this Binder is no Mythos)

Hmmm...
How about naming them not for the powers gained from the pacts, but for the grandeur of the spirit with whom that pact is formed?
"Trivial->Formidable->Magisterial->Archetypal"?
I know that Trivial sounds minor, but in all honesty, it is supposed to. The first tier should be low-key, after all.

That's an interesting approach.
Ok, so we have 2 angles:
1. Grandeur of powers: Fundamental->Exceptional->Legendary->Cosmic.
2. Grandeur of spirits: Trivial->Formidable->Magisterial->Empyrial. (I like "Empyrial" better than "Archetypal")

If we go for option #2, how do we explain Re-Prioritize? (multiple pacts per sphere maybe, with the higher powers remaining dormant/suppressed/inaccessible?)

[Qoios]

Maybe you're getting that vibe because of all the Mythos activity going around lately.
I don't remember those being use frequently (or at all, off the top of my head) outside of Mythos context (and this Binder is no Mythos)

Maybe so. Either way, they feel uninspired, given the existence (and prevalence) of Mythos content.

That's an interesting approach.
Ok, so we have 2 angles:
1. Grandeur of powers: Fundamental->Exceptional->Legendary->Cosmic.
2. Grandeur of spirits: Trivial->Formidable->Magisterial->Empyrial. (I like "Empyrial" better than "Archetypal")

If we go for option #2, how do we explain Re-Prioritize? (multiple pacts per sphere maybe, with the higher powers remaining dormant/suppressed/inaccessible?)

I was going to just say that the Tier is about what kinds of spirits you deal with. Thus, a Binder capable of binding Empyrial spirits may form any priority of pact with those Empyrial spirits, and then simply renegotiate with them on how much or how little power they wish to draw through the pact.

Also: what do you think of renaming "Re-Prioritize" to "Renegotiate" or "Renegotiate Terms"?

[nonsi]

Also: what do you think of renaming "Re-Prioritize" to "Renegotiate" or "Renegotiate Terms"?

Wouldn't that imply that you pay extra for upgrading to higher tier powers? (more obvious signs & personality imprint, with more severe implications - not sure I'd even wanna explore that option)
I mean, why would they re-negotiate if they don't have anything to gain for their time and "generosity"?
Otherwise, "Renegotiate" would lead us to view binding in a similar manner to how they describe what Ur-Priests and PF Time Thieves do, and that's more akin to stealing than negotiating.

[Qoios]

Hey, sorry I haven't posted anything, yet. I have gotten myself involved in a few real life obligations. I am still here, and still working, it's just having to be fit into a somewhat tighter schedule. I'll post what I can as soon as I have the time.

[nonsi]

Hey, sorry I haven't posted anything, yet. I have gotten myself involved in a few real life obligations.

Oh, that's perfectly understandable.
Actually, I have my hands full myself for the next few days, so it actually works out ok.

I am still here, and still working, it's just having to be fit into a somewhat tighter schedule. I'll post what I can as soon as I have the time.

Glad to here that.

[nonsi]

.
Ok, I'll be back at my PC in about 24 hours, so if anyone has any contributive ideas, I guess now would be a good time...

[Qoios]

Hey, sorry that I've been out of touch with you on this for a while...

I am still working on it. I've just mostly been working on the Mythic portion of the project, trying to get all of that figured out, which is much more daunting than this portion. I will still be posting Spheres as soon as I have drafts of them, I've just been really focusing on the other half of it, right now.

[nonsi]

Hey, sorry that I've been out of touch with you on this for a while...

I am still working on it. I've just mostly been working on the Mythic portion of the project, trying to get all of that figured out, which is much more daunting than this portion. I will still be posting Spheres as soon as I have drafts of them, I've just been really focusing on the other half of it, right now.

Hi, and welcome back.

I wouldn't wanna rush you or anything, but I got an amazing job offer a few days ago.
I'm starting a week from tomorrow and I intend to make the most out of it, so it'll probably clip my wings in a serious way as far as my forum activities are involved, so I'd really want to advance the Binder as far as possible during the coming week.

Again, sorry for urging you and thanks for your time.

[Nifft]

I'm so open to suggestions here.
I now remember that I heard the Totemist (haven't explored incarnum) has the ability to enhance itself in combat. Maybe it's worth a peek.

I also suggest looking at Incarnum stuff (Totemist and Incarnate).

It's a bunch of at-will abilities which occupy item slots.

You can mix & match every day.

[Qoios]

I also suggest looking at Incarnum stuff (Totemist and Incarnate).

It's a bunch of at-will abilities which occupy item slots.

You can mix & match every day.

Yeah, I've got a decent familiarity with Incarnum, but I don't think it is quite going to be a fit for this project, mostly because this is a homebrew creation, not an attempt to find a way to emulate something from within the existing rules.

If I were looking to emulate something like what we're trying to create, using only published 3.5 content, I think Incarnum (or the Pathfinder equivalent, Akashic Magic) would be a great start, though.

[nonsi]

Yeah, I've got a decent familiarity with Incarnum, but I don't think it is quite going to be a fit for this project, mostly because this is a homebrew creation, not an attempt to find a way to emulate something from within the existing rules.

If I were looking to emulate something like what we're trying to create, using only published 3.5 content, I think Incarnum (or the Pathfinder equivalent, Akashic Magic) would be a great start, though.

Absolutely.
I see no association whatsoever between binding planar spirits and body slots.
OTOH, I could see grafting as a possibility (but not a necessity) with this class.


@Qoios: Btw, how much of the class' revised table do you have figured out by now?

Also, I had this idea of having a Void sphere, which would be associated with entities that reside in between the planes (but I don't know how many - if at all - are there in 3.Xe... excluding official Binder's vestiges, of course)

[nonsi]

.
Ok, I finally have the Binder-remake class table and features figured out (in the OP).
The next thing is to define the spheres (and just maybe come up with additional appropriate spheres).
I could really use some help here, so if anyone's feeling inspired, please share your thoughts.

[nonsi]

.
Ok, breaking things down to what's required to complete this project, in terms of filling in the blanks, it goes like this:


======================================
Air
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Earth
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Fire
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Water
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Negative
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Positive
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Good (+light?)
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Evil (+darkness?)
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Law
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Chaos.
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Ethereal
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Astral
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Shadow
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Dream
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:

Void
- Attack Mode:
- Continual Benefits:
- Activated Powers:
- Physical Imprint:
- Mental Imprint:
======================================


Seems simple enough, right? Well, not quite.

Continual Benefits: I'm not sure if there should actually be 4 grades of continual benefits or just one (something akin to clerical domain granted powers). Should it revolve around feats, skills or defensive stat-augmentation. The mechanic should be as uniform as possible, to make things simple, but the benefits should be different enough to make sphere selection count.

Attack Mode: Coming up with 15 different ways to attack opponents is tough. Should I settle for different damage types, narrowing things to but a single attack option per sphere? It's simpler, no doubt, but would probably end up boring and restrictive.

Activated Powers: Maybe this is where special attacks and defenses Could come into the picture, mixed with utility powers.

And then there's the spheres themselves. Can each sphere coexist with any other bound sphere? (Good-Evil... Positive-Negative... etc)


Tough decisions

[nonsi]

.
Hey everyone,

Given I'm quite stuck right now with my Binder project, I'm reviving this thread, hoping someone might be struck with inspiration that will help promote the idea, or take it in a different direction.

Let's shake some branches and see if something falls down to the ground.

[nonsi]

.
An idea has just popped to mind regarding how to redefine Binding and Renegotiate in a practical manner . . .

What if, instead of attacking this problem from an angle of spheres, I'd say that a binder gains access to Abjuration/Conjuration/Transmutation spell effects according to the following rules:

1.	The power grades will be consistent with those of the Warlock:
	a. Trivial (1st level): 1st & 2nd SL effects
	b. Formidable (6th level): 3rd & 4th SL effects
	c. Magisterial (11th level): 5th & 6th SL effects
	d. Empyreal (16th level): 7th – 9th SL effects.

2.	At any given moment, a binder may wield:
	a. 3 spells from his primary power grade
	b. 4 spells from his secondary power grade
	c. 5 spells from his tertiary power grade
	d. 6 spells from his quaternary power grade.
	A given grade of powers may hold spells of lower-grade(s), if a binder so chooses.
	Each bound spell effect functions as a spell-like ability, usable 3 times (I'm considering lowering it to twice) between renegotiations or between long rests (whichever comes first).
	Until used up, bound spells remain accessible indefinitely.

3.	Renegotiation allows a binder to re-allocate spells from one of his power grades.
	A binder may select any spell from any fullcaster list, as long as its SL is within his grasp and it belongs to the allowed schools: Abjuration/Conjuration/Transmutation.
	Note: I chose Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation because they seem the most fitting to me to be associated with the theme of binding.
	 I'm also considering Evocation, to grant some access to direct damage effects, but I'm not sure.

4.	Every time a binder renegotiates, he's randomly affected by a single Physical Imprint and a single Mental Imprint ("sign" and "influence" respectively) –
	 each of which is taken from a pool assembled from the imprints specified for the ToM vestiges and WotC archives vestiges (alternatively they can come in pairs – both from the same proposed vestige).
	A binder may abandon all bound powers and lose the Physical and Mental Imprints, regaining access to bound powers (and taking the imprints) upon renegotiating.
	Note: This keeps the forces a binder draws power from vague/arbitrary and prevents clunky mechanics.
	 Also, I regard a pact with a specific being (including a greater demon) as something that should grant a small collection of predetermined benefits, so direct pacts seem inappropriate to me.

The above solution should be evaluated vs. my 3.5e Overhaul classes (Warlock in particular).
Does this seem reasonable in the big picture?

[nonsi]

.
Ok, I now have it much better figured out and defined.
The general spirit of my solution is that spells and invocations meet half-way.



Binding (Su)

Spoiler

Show

Binders tap into the very layers of reality, drawing residual power from powerful otherworldly entities inhabiting various planes of existence.
Drawing power in such manner is referred to as "Binding".
Similar to warlocks, binders arrange their power groups in 4 grades of powers, named according to the magnitude of entities they draw from and the scale of copers they harness.
The various power groups are:
1. Trivial (1st level): 1st & 2nd SL effects
2. Formidable (6th level): 3rd & 4th SL effects
3. Magisterial (11th level): 5th & 6th SL effects
4. Empyreal (16th level): 7th – 9th SL effects.
Unlike warlocks, binders may only access spells from SLs that are available to fullcasters of their Binder class level or lower (contrary to warlocks that gain access to 2^nd/4^th/9^th SL effects at 1^st/6^th/16^th level respectively).

Binders retrieve spell effects – as spell-like abilities – in a similar manner to that described for the CDiv Spirit Shaman… but not exactly. They have a limited repertoire to draw from:
- At 1^st level, they learn how to wield [3 + Int-bonus] spell effects
- At 2^nd level and each level thereafter, they learn 2 spell effects
- In addition, a binder also knows all Summon Monster spells of his available SLs.
Each bound spell power functions as a spell-like ability, usable 3 times between retrievals or between long rests (whichever comes first).

The number of effects a binder may retrieve from each power grade is as follows:
- 3 spells from his primary power group
- 4 spells from his secondary power group
- 5 spells from his tertiary power group
- 6 spells from his quaternary power group

Spell retrieval targets a specific power group, not all of them at once.
At 1^st level, a binder may retrieve spells once per day. At 5^th level and each 5 levels thereafter, a binder gains another daily use of spell retrieval.
Retrieving spells from a given power group takes 10 minutes of concentration.

Each retrieved power group also subjects a binder to a physical imprint/deformity and a mental imprint/personality taint.
- Physical Imprint: As long as you are bound to a sphere, you manifest a specific physical sign of its presence, as given in its entry. This sign is real, not an illusory or shapechanging effect, and someone using true seeing perceives it just as it is. When bound to multiple spheres, you manifest multiple signs – one for each sphere.
- Mental Imprint: This dictates behavioral changes in certain situations and poses a roleplaying challenge for the player. While under the influence of a sphere, you must adhere to its influence to the best of your ability. If you are conscious and free-willed, and you encounter a situation in which you cannot or will not refrain from a prohibited action or perform a required one, you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, and checks until that sphere is no longer bound to you. If you are influenced by more than one sphere, you must act according to all their influences. If you fail to fulfill the requirements of more than one sphere or disobey a single sphere more than once, the penalties stack.
A binder may abandon all bound powers of a given power group and lose the physical and mental imprints, regaining access to bound powers (and taking imprints) upon renegotiating.

Note: all sphere powers operate at CL equal to the binder's class-level and are Cha-based.

I need some educated assessment here.
Given the class features in the OP, is it enough? Is it too much?