OOTS #995 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

"Oh man *scratches neck* yall got any more of them comic strips?"

This is the best response ive yet seen.

[Neoriceisgood]

Man I want to read the next page, things are finally reaching the point I was hoping to get to with this storyline.

[tcrudisi]

The vamp heard the halfling, didn't he. Gulp.

Impossible - there was a Silence spell up.

[Robot Samurai]

So you can't attack a representative at the Godsmoot without violating the terms of the Godsmoot. The question then is does that mean that Durkula can turn everyone who isn't a representative of a God at the Godsmoot (which will include all members of the Creed, and bodyguards of the representatives) without being attacked by the other representatives? If they attack him for this then they would be violating the terms, not Durkula as he wouldn't have attacked a representative. Would that then allow the turned bodyguards and Creed to attack and attempt to turn the other representatives without any repercussions on Durkula as he hasn't actually violated the terms?

[Vectner]

I think that's the first time I have ever seen Belkar truly frightened. Vampires are scary.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Speaking of winter solstices, the prophecy from #572 states that Belkar's last breath ever will happen before the end of the year. In our world the winter solstice of the north hemisphere, which is supposed to be this very date in the OOtS-world, falls in either 21 or 22 December. And in #571 the clerics that raise him ask confirmation for a return date of "March 26, 1187", hinting that their calendar may somehow be Julian-Gregorian or very similar.

If that assumption is correct (and I will be the first to say that it is almost too easy for it not to be), then Belkar is to die in ten days or less, supposedly never to breath again. Or be banished to another plan where he can't breath and won't ever return from, perhaps. Or something.

Going by our other hints on the timing of Belkar's death, it seems likely that the Winter Soldtice in the Northern calendar doesn't match with the Southern calendar (which is what Belkar's prophecy follows). Granted, since Belkar can die at any time before his deadline, it doesn't make it any less likely he dies here, but it does give him an extra week or two.

[grandpheonix]

UH OH! Looks like Belkar has been spotted!

[Peelee]

Going by our other hints on the timing of Belkar's death, it seems likely that the Winter Soldtice in the Northern calendar doesn't match with the Southern calendar (which is what Belkar's prophecy follows). Granted, since Belkar can die at any time before his deadline, it doesn't make it any less likely he dies here, but it does give him an extra week or two.

Man, i always get confused on whether the clock is hung on the northern or southern calendar. Which is all the more impressive since i don't bother keeping track of which one is when.

[Bulldog Psion]

Impossible - there was a Silence spell up.

Unless Durkula dismissed the Silence spell a moment after Gontor died, in order to hear if anyone was coming or an alarm had been raised.

EDIT: it sure is going to be hard waiting to see what happens next.

[sabremeister]

But if the Creed did all the building, then presumably the other clerics do have all their spell slots. And walking in with a dozen other vampires in tow who doesn't seem like it'd accomplish much, especially since it's noon on the longest day of the year.

SHORTEST day of the year. Winter Solstice is the shortest day of the year, Summer Solstice is the longest. This is Winter Solstice.

[sabremeister]

I personally believe Belkar has been seen, but is likely to get away, but remember, any other cleric will see him as trespassing, which may end badly
On the side, I'm pretty new to the comic, but could Hel and the Dark One be the same being, just under separate aliases?

Pretty much impossible, I'd say. We know that the Dark One was a goblin, raised to Godhood by a year's slaughter in his posthumous name. Hel is a member of the Asgardian pantheon in OotS-world, which has direct parallels with the Norse pantheon in our world, even down to the roles they have. Hel is a Norse deity, just as Odin, Thor, Loki and Freya are Norse deities. The only difference is that we've seen people worshipping Odin, Thor, Loki and Freya, and we have Word of Giant to say that no-one living worships Hel.

[Seward]

As I read it, Belkar did not fail a check. He deliberately revealed himself, kicking his cape out with his foot, in the second to last panel. Realizing that Durkula has serious plans, he needs to distract him.

I guess we'll see in the next strip - whether it starts as a chase scene, or with a static trap laid in haste by Belkar.

This is certainly possible. In-character (see Miko chase scene) and while it shows more strategic thinking than Belkar usually does, getting a chase scene here means Durkula does NOT get an instant reinforcement. The dwarf-corpse remains a corpse for 3 days.

While Durkula can catch up to Belkar by shapeshifting, he'll lose some time and I'd bet on Belkar vs a vampire in bat or wolf form, they really aren't very dangerous in those forms compared to Durkula's abilities in dwarf form (level drain slam, spell casting, etc). This is especially true if Belkar plays hit and run, running whenever Durkla wastes a round to become dwarfish.

[rewinn]

Durkula's spur-of-the-moment plan (which I hope Belkar will disrupt, but I fear not) may have gone something like this:

Spoiler

Show

CHAIRMAN OF THE GODSMOOT: "The day is over. We now conclude the Godsmoot."

DURKULA: "On behalf 'a ma Goddess Hel, I wishta invite ye all ta her home now."

GONTORULA: "Spells renewed. Collapse cathedral (via Earthquake etc.)."

HEL: "Welcome. When your Gods come looking for your souls, please inform them that the rules of the Godsmoot were not violated since it was over. Also, I shall now vampirize and interrogate you. Finally, I now have the only divine casters within striking distance of the remaining Gate. Thank you for your support."

DURKULA: "What about that plucky elven priestess who wandered off before the meeting was over?"

HEL: "Bah. She is insignificant."

[Shining Wrath]

3.5. No such roll. Not 5e.

Sense Motive, not Insight.

[Shining Wrath]

Getting this priests to work for him seems more like him improvising and taking the opportunity at hand.

Durkon had no way to know that the priest of Gontor would be responsable for the godsmoot. No way to know that the priest would follow him or even to show such naivety. He had to ask the priest to be sure...also....if that was the plan he should be prepared to take the other priests in the entrance as well...and i doubt he can do that.

He saw an opportunity and took it. That is probably not the plan....

EDIT: Also...consider this...it took only 1 or 2 rounds to kill that priest. That is a really low level priest durkon just killed. It would be nice to see which spell is needed to raise that temple to biggest level of Gontor`s priests we could expect.

Anyway...i really doubt Hel has no low level priests following her. Why need to go to the godsmoot only to collect new low level priests to her church? She would get more results turning npcs and forcing them to become priests....and forcing them level up with all vampiric bonuses.

Hel might have known the Earth gang was hosting, and that they'd be burning through spell slots - perhaps they host often enough to make this predictable. But that their leader would personally escort HPoH to his seat, and that no one else would be around to interfere? That's a low-odds bet.

Gontor is a bonus, but I doubt he's an essential part of the plan.

[happycrow]

That's an interesting theory. You are also assuming that Durkon will remember much of what he learnt, which seems unlikely given what Malack said about his potential resurrection and how much Roy remembers.

That could be self-serving, too. GontoHel could remember everything and still be considered a yutz by the spirit that chooses to inhabit him prior to being blasted out.

[Hazetar]

At which point did the soul of the Cleric of Hel get implanted into Durkon's body? When he was turned or when he was freed from Malack's thralldom?

Was Cleric of Hel a mindless Thrall to Nergal when he was a servant of Malack?

Can somebody answer these questions?

[Windscion]

Can somebody answer those questions?

Short Answer? No.
Long answer: Noooooooooooooo.
You see, WoG hasn't seen fit to address this. And since vampirism in Stickverse is nonstandard, there is no way to guess.

[Fitzclowningham]

As I read it, Belkar did not fail a check. He deliberately revealed himself, kicking his cape out with his foot, in the second to last panel. Realizing that Durkula has serious plans, he needs to distract him.

I guess we'll see in the next strip - whether it starts as a chase scene, or with a static trap laid in haste by Belkar.

Agreed 100%. There are no motion lines, and, most tellingly, his arms don't alternate with his legs (both right limbs are extended forwards; both left limbs are extended backwards). The next strip is going to be incredible.

[Jasdoif]

Short Answer? No.
Long answer: Noooooooooooooo.
You see, WoG hasn't seen fit to address this. And since vampirism in Stickverse is nonstandard, there is no way to guess.

I'm going to disagree, there.

There is absolutely zero difference between Malack and Durkon's vampirizations, with the sole exception that Hel made the spirit sitting in Durkon's head while Nergal made the one that was sitting in Malack's. Hel is able to put that spirit into Durkon's body because of the physical vampirization process that Malack enacts on Durkon's corpse, which opens a door to Negative Energy and traps Durkon's spirit inside it. Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain, though she wouldn't take a personal interest in just any person because they wouldn't be a powerful cleric.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm going to disagree, there.

Agreed, additionally, there's no reason to think this is in any real sense a "non-standard" vampirization. It strikes me as a fairly standard interpretation. D&D doesn't specify if you're the same or not (although it's been claimed that Liber Mortis, the third edition splat dealing with undead does in fact go with "different spirit" for vampires); and this is in fact the TRADITIONAL interpretation, that the person is dead and a demon or other evil spirit animates the body. It's fairly modern to think it might be in any real sense the same person inside a vampire.

Angsty vampires who are still the same person but with bloodlust are the non-standard interpretation. Evil monster animating a body is the traditional interpretation.

The only arguably non-standard thing about the Giant's vampires is that the actual soul is still trapped in the body, whereas more traditionally the soul has gone on to its final reward. (Because most real world religions deny that evil spirits have any power to stop the soul from going on, in D&D land we know that magic can prevent this.)

[warmachine]

The moral of the story is: never trust the cleric of an evil god when you are in no position to fight back and he doesn't have to worry about retaliation.

[Gift Jeraff]

A plot question for Rich:

So, pretty clear so far, that Cleric of Hel is his own sentient evil spirit, a being that has a will and an agenda.

At which point did the soul of the Cleric of Hel get implanted into Durkon's body? When he was turned or when he was freed from Malack's thralldom?

Was Cleric of Hel a mindless Thrall to Nergal when he was a servant of Malack?

Since his magic aura was the same as both a thrall and a free vampire, and Rich later admitted that he was intentionally obfuscating the subject of Durkula's deity back when people asked how the thrall could summon a devil, I'm going to guess that he was the High Priest of Hel as early as #878.

[Simbosan]

Had to play your registration game to post this!

This story is really getting going, this page was just brilliantly done. What a great strip this is.

Thanks!

S

[ORione]

So, while im not the DM/Author, I would say that sticking your face into someone's neck is rather distracting, and thus you would not be prompted for a spot check unless you first were given some indication that something was there you would need to be looking for, such as making a listen check.

I guess there could have been some "You feel like youre being watched" 6th sense thing going on there, but im going to assume the HPoH did not actually see Belkar until and unless its shown otherwise in comic.

If I were to murder someone and suck their blood in a public space while unable to hear, I would look around for other people as much as I could.

Hypothetically speaking.

[Windscion]

I'm going to disagree, there.

I am perfectly aware of that quote, which fails to answer the question posed. Namely, when did Hippo occupy Darkon Malacksen? Saying that Malack's action made it possible is not the same thing as saying that it happened at that very moment.

Sure, it makes sense that Hel acted immediately. But when Darkon Malacksen is freed from thralldom, he stands stock still for a period of time while Nale does his sales pitch. That could be interpreted as a new spirit assuming control of the body. Or it could be interpreted as taking a moment to consider options when circumstances change. Also, it is entirely possible that the spirit occupying Durkon's cody was not HPoH until freed from thralldom. After all, why would Hel appoint a high priest who is not free to advance her interests? So that pregnant pause could also be Hel revealing her plan to the (already resident) spirit and appointing him as her high priest.

The fact that the thrall summons a devil ... how does that matter? Honestly confused here. Is there any reason to believe that a souless abomination is unable to cast spells?

Also, saying that the vampire is standard is incorrect. Nowhere else of which I am aware specifies that the victim's soul is trapped inside the monster (which is nevertheless under direction by another spirit). Noting that he has pointy teeth and drains blood is merely saying that Rich is using the term 'vampire' to refer to something we can recognize as a vampire. The fact that HPoH is relying on this feature to assist in his masquerade means that this feature is critical to the plot and not merely flavor.

(When I use the term 'standard', I am refering to the D&D 3.5 rules -- not the vast and contradictory body of tales about bloodsucking revenants.)

[Wormwood74]

The whole "Belkar's gonna die" thing just feels so ... telegraphed. Like a giant (get it? Giant?) head fake. Put the little guy in what looks like mortal peril and everyone leans forward. Good storytelling says you don't do that generally.

Unless the rug get pulled out from under you and something you completely don't expect happens (like, the Oracle was lying, or stretching the truth to the breaking point, which he has in fact done before with Belkar just to annoy him into a murderous rage.)

[shadowpriest]

Oh my :( something's bad is bound to happen, given the proximity of "1000"...

[Xihirli]

I don't think Belkar will die here. I don't think Durkula has access to the Destruction Domain, or at least hasn't used Disintegrate yet. The Oracle said Belkar would take his last breath-ever, and if he's in a state where he can be resurrected, there are dozens of clerics around that can do that. Then he'd breath. People have assumed that he'd go vampire, but as we've seen with Malack and Durkula, vampires can breathe if they do it on purpose, and Belkar probably would at one point just to freak people out or see if he could. There isn't any feasible way for Belkar to die in a way that will keep him from coming back up and breathing again.

[Gift Jeraff]

The fact that the thrall summons a devil ... how does that matter? Honestly confused here. Is there any reason to believe that a souless abomination is unable to cast spells?

Clerics need a power source in order to cast spells. When the thrall summoned the devil, people asked how this was possible and Rich responded by reciting the rules for vampire clerics (giving us the impression that he was a non-theistic worshiper of Negative Energy). After the big reveal, Rich posted this, heavily implying that he was previously dodging the question of vampire Durkon's deity. If Thrall!Durkon was a non-theistic cleric or a cleric of Nergal, couldn't Rich just say "he changed deities after becoming free-willed" or "he is a completely different entity from the thrall"?