World of Warcraft XVIII: Draenor was merely a setback

[Icewraith]

[QUOTE=The_Jackal;20086641]And yet so few PUG players DID it. I don't have sympathy for them either, but I'm stuck QUEUEING with these idiots.

Warrior must not have been in the half, because his trash was quite sufficient to sand me down before I overgeared the encounter.

Remember there was a Rifleman nerf... pre-nerf their channel knocked off massive chunks of health and you can potentially have multiples out at once during the middle phase of Nitrogg.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Warrior must not have been in the half, because his trash was quite sufficient to sand me down before I overgeared the encounter.

Warrior's didn't have a self heal based on resolve which was something I had pointed out on the beta forums during closed beta and it was never properly addressed which of course is irrelevant since resolve is going bye bye.

[Seerow]

Warrior's didn't have a self heal based on resolve which was something I had pointed out on the beta forums during closed beta and it was never properly addressed which of course is irrelevant since resolve is going bye bye.

It was never dressed because it's not relevant except while soloing.


Warrior's design is such that they don't really have self-healing, but they take much less damage than other tanks. So in group play they need similar healing compared to the other tanks, but their damage intake is much smoother and predictable, making them actually very desirable.

The lack of heals is painful while soloing, because the design does mean that against anything with even slightly threatening damage will whittle the Warrior down, in any area of the game that the developers balance around it works out great. You'll notice with the Legion design they're doubling down on that design by making Shield Block cheaper and replacing Shield Barrier with Ignore Pain, which is like Shield Barrier except it can't nullify all damage, just most of it, so no matter what the Warrior will always be taking some damage when he gets hit. (Whereas before at least against weak enemies shield barrier plus multistrike healing really could keep you topped off).

[ryuplaneswalker]

well Resolve is going bye bye anyways so it is a moot thing that Warriors got nearly nothing out of the mechanic.

[AgentPaper]

Warrior's design is such that they don't really have self-healing, but they take much less damage than other tanks. So in group play they need similar healing compared to the other tanks, but their damage intake is much smoother and predictable, making them actually very desirable.

The lack of heals is painful while soloing, because the design does mean that against anything with even slightly threatening damage will whittle the Warrior down, in any area of the game that the developers balance around it works out great. You'll notice with the Legion design they're doubling down on that design by making Shield Block cheaper and replacing Shield Barrier with Ignore Pain, which is like Shield Barrier except it can't nullify all damage, just most of it, so no matter what the Warrior will always be taking some damage when he gets hit. (Whereas before at least against weak enemies shield barrier plus multistrike healing really could keep you topped off).

But, protection warriors do have self healing. Enraged Regeneration and Victory Rush, both of which are pretty good for keeping you alive in solo content. When you also include their many ways of reducing damage taken and stunning groups of enemies, I've found them to be one of the better classes to do stuff solo with. I guess they have a bit more trouble with single tough enemies, who they can't CC and where Victory Rush doesn't come into play as much, but for questing you can take on large groups and most elites without much problem.

[Seerow]

But, protection warriors do have self healing. Enraged Regeneration and Victory Rush, both of which are pretty good for keeping you alive in solo content. When you also include their many ways of reducing damage taken and stunning groups of enemies, I've found them to be one of the better classes to do stuff solo with. I guess they have a bit more trouble with single tough enemies, who they can't CC and where Victory Rush doesn't come into play as much, but for questing you can take on large groups and most elites without much problem.

1) ER is 30% health every minute, so if you're taking even .5% health in damage per second you will eventually get worn down past it. That covers most mobs that would be considered threatening by you (read: enemies that you don't overgear).

2) While I agree that Victory Rush is awesome (one of my favorite things about Warrior in general), especially for questing/open world content, in the context of soloing dungeons/raids, especially bosses, it's not often very useful. Incidentally Nitrog is an example where it can be very useful, but the Warrior would have to be really overgeared to kill the adds on that fight fast enough solo to get the necessary victory rush procs to survive and win.


edit: I guess the main point is that yes, warriors do have healing, but their healing amounts to very little in the scheme of things in group content. ER is a cooldown, and works great as a cooldown to supplement incoming heals from a healer, but does not really provide enough on its own. VR just doesn't proc in most boss fights. Warriors get enough healing to survive (and even thrive) in the open world, which is fantastic. But the discussion was about Prot Warriors not being able to solo dungeon bosses as easily as some other tank specs, and how resolve-based-healing (or the lack thereof) affects that.

[AgentPaper]

1) ER is 30% health every minute, so if you're taking even .5% health in damage per second you will eventually get worn down past it. That covers most mobs that would be considered threatening by you (read: enemies that you don't overgear).

2) While I agree that Victory Rush is awesome (one of my favorite things about Warrior in general), especially for questing/open world content, in the context of soloing dungeons/raids, especially bosses, it's not often very useful. Incidentally Nitrog is an example where it can be very useful, but the Warrior would have to be really overgeared to kill the adds on that fight fast enough solo to get the necessary victory rush procs to survive and win.


edit: I guess the main point is that yes, warriors do have healing, but their healing amounts to very little in the scheme of things in group content. ER is a cooldown, and works great as a cooldown to supplement incoming heals from a healer, but does not really provide enough on its own. VR just doesn't proc in most boss fights. Warriors get enough healing to survive (and even thrive) in the open world, which is fantastic. But the discussion was about Prot Warriors not being able to solo dungeon bosses as easily as some other tank specs, and how resolve-based-healing (or the lack thereof) affects that.

Ah, when you said "solo content" I assumed questing and other open world stuff. Soloing old dungeons and such, yeah you're going to have a hard time compared to the other tanks who can heal pretty much at-will through various means.

[The_Jackal]

Well, I'm glad on behalf of my fellow tanks that they're trashing resolve, it was a STUPID mechanic. Honestly, shield barrier/ignore pain is another 'non-choice', the conditions under which it makes sense to use are so marginal, you're mostly better of never mapping the damned button. Either a) you're soloing, in which case the rage is better spent producing damage with which to dent your enemy's face, or b) you're taking for a group, in which case you need the higher mitigation of shield block, because barrier will get blown off in the blink of an eye.

But, as I say, this is all moot for me, unless Blizz comes out with an about-face on the flying issue.

[Seerow]

Well, I'm glad on behalf of my fellow tanks that they're trashing resolve, it was a STUPID mechanic. Honestly, shield barrier/ignore pain is another 'non-choice', the conditions under which it makes sense to use are so marginal, you're mostly better of never mapping the damned button. Either a) you're soloing, in which case the rage is better spent producing damage with which to dent your enemy's face, or b) you're taking for a group, in which case you need the higher mitigation of shield block, because barrier will get blown off in the blink of an eye.

I think you missed the part where they dropped Shield Block's cost down to 10 rage, so you can keep it up all the time and still use Ignore Pain as your main rage dump/mitigation tool. I mean sure, if you're non-threatened by the incoming damage you could use Heroic Strike instead, but let's be honest, the healers will appreciate the damage you take being reduced by 25% of your max health more than they will appreciate you dealing an extra 10% dps.

[Icewraith]

1) ER is 30% health every minute, so if you're taking even .5% health in damage per second you will eventually get worn down past it. That covers most mobs that would be considered threatening by you (read: enemies that you don't overgear).

2) While I agree that Victory Rush is awesome (one of my favorite things about Warrior in general), especially for questing/open world content, in the context of soloing dungeons/raids, especially bosses, it's not often very useful. Incidentally Nitrog is an example where it can be very useful, but the Warrior would have to be really overgeared to kill the adds on that fight fast enough solo to get the necessary victory rush procs to survive and win.


edit: I guess the main point is that yes, warriors do have healing, but their healing amounts to very little in the scheme of things in group content. ER is a cooldown, and works great as a cooldown to supplement incoming heals from a healer, but does not really provide enough on its own. VR just doesn't proc in most boss fights. Warriors get enough healing to survive (and even thrive) in the open world, which is fantastic. But the discussion was about Prot Warriors not being able to solo dungeon bosses as easily as some other tank specs, and how resolve-based-healing (or the lack thereof) affects that.

Last Stand still significantly increases the healing from Enraged Regen when macroed together. When soloing your health is basically on a long cycle between 50% and full over three minutes. I really would appreciate some more reliable self healing though.

Ok, so shield barrier is gone and now we have ignore pain. Now we have a button to help with massive telegraphed boss hits, which is what SBar used to do (sort of). Only Sbar was useful even if you lagged a bit because the shield would still give some breathing room while the healers get you back up (if you weren't already at max self healing it technically was better as long as you were sure the big hit wouldn't kill you).

I don't know why they don't just slap a 40 rage cost to use VR, still have it usable for free on kills, and call it a day now that multistrike is dead and the passive regen was never noticeable. Or have heroic strike heal as well as damage when prot specced in defensive stance.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I guess the main point is that yes, warriors do have healing, but their healing amounts to very little in the scheme of things in group content.

Of course the entire discussion is Irrelevant because my comments about Warriors and resolve were not about specifically the amount of self healing but rather the fact that all of the self healing they have is based on % of HP meaning resolve never has an affect on it, which wasn't about the number of self heals warriors had and rather how that self healing was calculated. Guardian Druids have not very much more Self Heals than Warriors do but Druid's are all based on attack power.

[The_Jackal]

I think you missed the part where they dropped Shield Block's cost down to 10 rage, so you can keep it up all the time and still use Ignore Pain as your main rage dump/mitigation tool. I mean sure, if you're non-threatened by the incoming damage you could use Heroic Strike instead, but let's be honest, the healers will appreciate the damage you take being reduced by 25% of your max health more than they will appreciate you dealing an extra 10% dps.

I did miss that, though I don't welcome it. 'Press this button to keep this button pressed' is the worst kind of MMO game mechanic, one I had thought they'd woken up to when they revamped Paladins in 3.0. Using ignore pain as a 'rage dump' also doesn't make it sound like a reactive mechanic, but another button to keep mashed down. As for mitigation being better than damage in a group, sure, that goes without saying, but at least when aggro was a think tanks needed to worry about, your choice between keeping shield block up or hitting heroic strike had meaning (albeit, meaning in terms of how much you'd outgeared the encounter 90% of the time).

It's discussions like these which keep reminding me that I'm ready for the next innovation in MMO gameplay: An actual physics engine, instead of hash-table resolution. Reading what I just typed, I guess I'm looking for a fantasy-themed Destiny, for the PC.

[AgentPaper]

I did miss that, though I don't welcome it. 'Press this button to keep this button pressed' is the worst kind of MMO game mechanic, one I had thought they'd woken up to when they revamped Paladins in 3.0. Using ignore pain as a 'rage dump' also doesn't make it sound like a reactive mechanic, but another button to keep mashed down. As for mitigation being better than damage in a group, sure, that goes without saying, but at least when aggro was a think tanks needed to worry about, your choice between keeping shield block up or hitting heroic strike had meaning (albeit, meaning in terms of how much you'd outgeared the encounter 90% of the time).

Not sure what you mean by "press this button to keep this button pressed". If you're looking for some kind of deep meaning to what buttons you're pressing, you're playing the wrong kind of game.

It's discussions like these which keep reminding me that I'm ready for the next innovation in MMO gameplay: An actual physics engine, instead of hash-table resolution. Reading what I just typed, I guess I'm looking for a fantasy-themed Destiny, for the PC.

Well, there's Tera and Wildstar, both of which put a lot more emphasis on abilities that shoot where you point, rather than automatically at what you're targeting. Having played both, it's an interesting take, and I think superior to WoW's basic combat system, but not really as revolutionary as you seem to be thinking. Certainly not enough to make the two games I mentioned better than WoW on their own, at any rate, though I do think it'll be a part of whatever ends up replacing World of Warcraft as we know it, whenever that happens.

[The_Jackal]

Not sure what you mean by "press this button to keep this button pressed". If you're looking for some kind of deep meaning to what buttons you're pressing, you're playing the wrong kind of game.

I'm basically talking short-duration self-buffs whose cost and cooldown are low enough to make them more or less 'always on'. Shield Block in its original incarnation was exactly this kind of ability: One which doesn't do anything interesting, merely increases the tempo of key presses required to play the character. It would have been better to simply give the added blocking ability to the list of prot warrior passives, and save wear on everyone's keyboards.

Well, there's Tera and Wildstar, both of which put a lot more emphasis on abilities that shoot where you point, rather than automatically at what you're targeting. Having played both, it's an interesting take, and I think superior to WoW's basic combat system, but not really as revolutionary as you seem to be thinking. Certainly not enough to make the two games I mentioned better than WoW on their own, at any rate, though I do think it'll be a part of whatever ends up replacing World of Warcraft as we know it, whenever that happens.

Yeah, I tried Wildstar, the combat system was interesting, but still not quite doing it for me. The inane crafting system, glacial leveling pace and deserted servers (when I was playing, density is probably better now with F2P) didn't help. Wildstar definitely got some things right, it's might be the most ambitious take on the MMO I've seen to-date, and I won't rule out picking it up again, but it's worth noting I left to come back to my WoW hunter.

But yes, my dream MMO would look a lot more like Shadow of Mordor with multiplayer, which is gonna be pretty insane, in terms of server requirements.

[Icewraith]

I'm basically talking short-duration self-buffs whose cost and cooldown are low enough to make them more or less 'always on'. Shield Block in its original incarnation was exactly this kind of ability: One which doesn't do anything interesting, merely increases the tempo of key presses required to play the character. It would have been better to simply give the added blocking ability to the list of prot warrior passives, and save wear on everyone's keyboards.



Yeah, I tried Wildstar, the combat system was interesting, but still not quite doing it for me. The inane crafting system, glacial leveling pace and deserted servers (when I was playing, density is probably better now with F2P) didn't help. Wildstar definitely got some things right, it's might be the most ambitious take on the MMO I've seen to-date, and I won't rule out picking it up again, but it's worth noting I left to come back to my WoW hunter.

But yes, my dream MMO would look a lot more like Shadow of Mordor with multiplayer, which is gonna be pretty insane, in terms of server requirements.

Unless they got rid of Shield block's charges you still only have ~2/3 uptime at best on them. The thing I don't like about it is you're really dependent on bossmods to avoid using sblock right before the boss starts casting something or using an ability and it doesn't autoattack for half the duration.

[AgentPaper]

Unless they got rid of Shield block's charges you still only have ~2/3 uptime at best on them. The thing I don't like about it is you're really dependent on bossmods to avoid using sblock right before the boss starts casting something or using an ability and it doesn't autoattack for half the duration.

Yeah, it still has charges so you can't have it up all the time, like I mentioned before. As for boss mods, eh I guess I can kinda see that, but you should have at least Deadly Boss Mod installed anyways if you're going to take dungeons or raids even half-seriously, so meh.

[The_Jackal]

Unless they got rid of Shield block's charges you still only have ~2/3 uptime at best on them. The thing I don't like about it is you're really dependent on bossmods to avoid using sblock right before the boss starts casting something or using an ability and it doesn't autoattack for half the duration.

Sure, but it's still a 'put it up all the time' ability, because it's not worth pushing back on the cooldown to match some putative telegraph. Either a) you're earning your next charge of shield block, or b) you're not. If b), you're taking more damage. There might be some absolutely perfect timing to getting the most out of shield blocking a particular boss, but in practice, your attention needs to be devoted to far more important things, like fight mechanics and boss positioning. You've got other abilities for the 'big hit incoming abilities: Demoralizing shout being the foremost. In fact, in a lot of cases, shield block does nothing, for example, Kargath's impale, or virtually any spell.

[AgentPaper]

Sure, but it's still a 'put it up all the time' ability, because it's not worth pushing back on the cooldown to match some putative telegraph. Either a) you're earning your next charge of shield block, or b) you're not. If b), you're taking more damage. There might be some absolutely perfect timing to getting the most out of shield blocking a particular boss, but in practice, your attention needs to be devoted to far more important things, like fight mechanics and boss positioning. You've got other abilities for the 'big hit incoming abilities: Demoralizing shout being the foremost. In fact, in a lot of cases, shield block does nothing, for example, Kargath's impale, or virtually any spell.

But that's why you have two charges. You should use it any time you have two charges (unless you're not taking any damage right now), of course, but you'll still have your second charge sitting there which you can use at specific times when you know you're going to take a bunch of damage.

Against some bosses (especially bosses made before active mitigation was a named thing) it's just something you spam to reduce damage by X%, but as someone who mains a protection warrior, I can tell you that it's absolutely not a "just spam this whenever" button most of the time.

[The_Jackal]

But that's why you have two charges. You should use it any time you have two charges (unless you're not taking any damage right now), of course, but you'll still have your second charge sitting there which you can use at specific times when you know you're going to take a bunch of damage.

Against some bosses (especially bosses made before active mitigation was a named thing) it's just something you spam to reduce damage by X%, but as someone who mains a protection warrior, I can tell you that it's absolutely not a "just spam this whenever" button most of the time.

I mained warrior too, was my raid's main tank, and I have NEVER died due to mismanagement of shield block. LOTS of other issues, mainly, as I say, positioning and encounter mechanics. Now it's possible you're killing Heroic raid bosses all the way through and found one fight where timing your shield block was critical to your survival, maybe you had encounter mechanics so mastered that you could afford to curate your shield block. But that brings me to my next point: Depth versus reward. Maybe you're right, for someone who brings Matrix-like mastery of their cooldown management might eke a bit more mitigation out of timing their shield block. But it's not going to be very noticeable. As I pointed out, the big, scary mechanics are already unblockable. So, at the end of the day, Shield Block is just a 'push this button to take marginally less damage most of the time'. At least during Vanilla, blocking was a crucial part of pushing burst damage out of the attack hash table. But that stopped being a thing when defense was removed from the game, and was made into even less of a thing when they cranked up everyone's HP pool and dropped the efficiency and effectiveness of healing. So yeah, I'm still sticking with my original assertion: the ability is very much a 'keep this button pushed down' affair.

[AgentPaper]

I mained warrior too, was my raid's main tank, and I have NEVER died due to mismanagement of shield block. LOTS of other issues, mainly, as I say, positioning and encounter mechanics. Now it's possible you're killing Heroic raid bosses all the way through and found one fight where timing your shield block was critical to your survival, maybe you had encounter mechanics so mastered that you could afford to curate your shield block. But that brings me to my next point: Depth versus reward. Maybe you're right, for someone who brings Matrix-like mastery of their cooldown management might eke a bit more mitigation out of timing their shield block. But it's not going to be very noticeable. As I pointed out, the big, scary mechanics are already unblockable. So, at the end of the day, Shield Block is just a 'push this button to take marginally less damage most of the time'. At least during Vanilla, blocking was a crucial part of pushing burst damage out of the attack hash table. But that stopped being a thing when defense was removed from the game, and was made into even less of a thing when they cranked up everyone's HP pool and dropped the efficiency and effectiveness of healing. So yeah, I'm still sticking with my original assertion: the ability is very much a 'keep this button pushed down' affair.

I don't know what bosses you're fighting (or were fighting, it really sounds like you haven't played in quite a while), but it doesn't take matrix-like mastery of cooldown management. You see the boss go "I'mma hit you real hard now!" in one of hundreds of variations, and you hit shield block now instead of 5 seconds from now when you would have hit 2 charges.

Most of the time, yeah, you weren't going to die if you didn't use your mitigation correctly, but that doesn't mean that it's useless, you're making things easier for the healers by taking less damage overall, and making it less likely that a bit of unexpected damage or a misstep by the healer leads to you dying and the raid wiping.

And there are a few bosses where active mitigation is even called out and just spamming shield block on cooldown will get you dead. For example Kilrogg Deadeye (a boss in the Blackrock Foundry raid) uses Shred Armor which deals a bunch of damage and causes the target to take an extra 40% damage (stacking). If you use active mitigation, not only can you block a good amount of that damage, but it also prevents the debuff from being applied to you. Outside of raids, there's also Rukhran in the Skyreach dungeon, who uses Pierce Armor which has very similar effects (10% instead of 40%, but still stacking).

Hell, even outside of bosses, I've used it a lot of times to help me survive when a bunch of unexpected adds show up, or when the healer gets CCed, or even just at the start of a pull to block damage when all of the enemies are still up, rather than "on cooldown" later on when half of them are dead.

[The_Jackal]

I don't know what bosses you're fighting (or were fighting, it really sounds like you haven't played in quite a while), but it doesn't take matrix-like mastery of cooldown management. You see the boss go "I'mma hit you real hard now!" in one of hundreds of variations, and you hit shield block now instead of 5 seconds from now when you would have hit 2 charges.

You seem to have mentally inverted my recommended behaviour. Mash the button. All the time. You can't lose duration on shield block. If you've got 3 seconds left on a shield block, and hit your next shield block, it will have its duration increased to 9 seconds.

Most of the time, yeah, you weren't going to die if you didn't use your mitigation correctly, but that doesn't mean that it's useless, you're making things easier for the healers by taking less damage overall, and making it less likely that a bit of unexpected damage or a misstep by the healer leads to you dying and the raid wiping.

Like I said: You're far more likely to die by failing mechanics or positioning (which is really just another word for mechanics, really).

And there are a few bosses where active mitigation is even called out and just spamming shield block on cooldown will get you dead. For example Kilrogg Deadeye (a boss in the Blackrock Foundry raid) uses Shred Armor which deals a bunch of damage and causes the target to take an extra 40% damage (stacking). If you use active mitigation, not only can you block a good amount of that damage, but it also prevents the debuff from being applied to you. Outside of raids, there's also Rukhran in the Skyreach dungeon, who uses Pierce Armor which has very similar effects (10% instead of 40%, but still stacking).

Yep, never even NOTICED Pierce Armor in Skyreach, which I only ever wiped on when the DPS would feeb the adds and spawn 400 birds from running through the embers. Kilrogg basically turns 'timing shield block' INTO a raid mechanic, instead of what it is natively, a medicore and forgettable buff with <100% uptime, whose effect competes with your own class mastery.

Hell, even outside of bosses, I've used it a lot of times to help me survive when a bunch of unexpected adds show up, or when the healer gets CCed, or even just at the start of a pull to block damage when all of the enemies are still up, rather than "on cooldown" later on when half of them are dead.

As I said, you've got other tools in your toolbox for 'oh crumbs' moments. And, if you're using my method, you've got 18 seconds of uninterrupted shield block from the start of a fight. But this is all moot: It's a boring, stupid mechanic, and active mitigation is a boring, stupid design choice. I'd much rather have the 'keep aggro on my targets' challenge back.

[AgentPaper]

You seem to have mentally inverted my recommended behaviour. Mash the button. All the time. You can't lose duration on shield block. If you've got 3 seconds left on a shield block, and hit your next shield block, it will have its duration increased to 9 seconds.

Er, no? Have you played warrior before? It lasts 6 seconds and has a 12 second recharge. You can't have it up 100% of the time. Sure, you can use it twice in a row to get 12 seconds of block time, then once more when it comes off cooldown for a total of 18 seconds blocked, but once that's over you've got 6 seconds before it comes off cooldown again, so now you've just got it up half the time for the rest of the fight if you just keep spamming it.

Like I said: You're far more likely to die by failing mechanics or positioning (which is really just another word for mechanics, really).

Just because you're more likely to die if you make a simple mistake doesn't mean that a more subtle mistake isn't still a mistake.

Yep, never even NOTICED Pierce Armor in Skyreach, which I only ever wiped on when the DPS would feeb the adds and spawn 400 birds from running through the embers. Kilrogg basically turns 'timing shield block' INTO a raid mechanic, instead of what it is natively, a medicore and forgettable buff with <100% uptime, whose effect competes with your own class mastery.

I'm not sure what your point here is. Are you saying that shield block doesn't protect you enough? Because that's a lot different from the "you just press it to keep it pressed" point you made before.

As I said, you've got other tools in your toolbox for 'oh crumbs' moments. And, if you're using my method, you've got 18 seconds of uninterrupted shield block from the start of a fight. But this is all moot: It's a boring, stupid mechanic, and active mitigation is a boring, stupid design choice. I'd much rather have the 'keep aggro on my targets' challenge back.

If you think tanking whatever bosses you're tanking is easy, then you should be seeking out more difficult content. Tanking is not easier than it used to be, if anything it's become harder exactly because of active mitigation. Before, you basically just did your rotation, did the mechanics, and used cooldowns sometimes. Now you do the same things, but also need to make sure you're using your active mitigation at the right time to block as much damage as you can.

I also played a lot back in the "keeping aggro is hard" times (specifically naxx and ulduar), and trying to claim that tanking was harder because of it is frankly insulting. Against single target, you did your rotation as best you can, and if anyone got aggro anyways, you taunted and yelled at them for not watching their threat. Nowadays...you do your rotation as best you can still, only it's your own DPS that suffers instead of the whole raid.

And again, if you don't like that content isn't challenging, then go after more challenging content. Get going on heroics, or do challenge dungeons. Push your group to go faster, pull more trash at once, whatever. Don't complain that you can tank normal dungeons by pressing one button because of your epic raid gear. That's not the game's fault, it's your for taking on challenges that you are overgeared for.

[The_Jackal]

Er, no? Have you played warrior before? It lasts 6 seconds and has a 12 second recharge. You can't have it up 100% of the time.

I never said you could. I said that you can't LOSE DURATION. That is not the same as IT HAS 100% UPTIME.

Just because you're more likely to die if you make a simple mistake doesn't mean that a more subtle mistake isn't still a mistake.

I'm not contending that it's optimal. I'm contending that 95% of the time (in raid boss fights, outside of that, it's 100% of the time), it doesn't matter, and there are other places to devote your attention.

I'm not sure what your point here is. Are you saying that shield block doesn't protect you enough? Because that's a lot different from the "you just press it to keep it pressed" point you made before.

My point is that with the warrior's passive block chance, perks, and unavoidable mastery itemization, you're going to block most of the junk hitting you during the 6 second window when SB is recharging anyway, and when factored into the many other forms of mitigation you've got, assuming you're properly itemized AT ALL, the marginal difference in damage taken, barring some third-rail mechanic, is barely noticable.

If you think tanking whatever bosses you're tanking is easy, then you should be seeking out more difficult content. Tanking is not easier than it used to be, if anything it's become harder exactly because of active mitigation. Before, you basically just did your rotation, did the mechanics, and used cooldowns sometimes. Now you do the same things, but also need to make sure you're using your active mitigation at the right time to block as much damage as you can.

Again, I don't know how you can take what I said and conclude that I said 'Tanking is easy' at any point. The fact that I keep harping on how you've got far more important things to think about than playing Simon with your active mitigation implies that I think the job is hard. Honestly, it was already the hardest job in the raid. Now it's just hard and not as much fun.

I also played a lot back in the "keeping aggro is hard" times (specifically naxx and ulduar), and trying to claim that tanking was harder because of it is frankly insulting. Against single target, you did your rotation as best you can, and if anyone got aggro anyways, you taunted and yelled at them for not watching their threat. Nowadays...you do your rotation as best you can still, only it's your own DPS that suffers instead of the whole raid.

Well, if you take that as an insult, then that's your choice. That's not how I meant it. When I was tanking back in Wrath and earlier, I received many, many compliments about my ability to hold aggro when compared to other tanks people played alongside. So clearly it CAN be done better or worse.

And again, if you don't like that content isn't challenging, then go after more challenging content. Get going on heroics, or do challenge dungeons. Push your group to go faster, pull more trash at once, whatever. Don't complain that you can tank normal dungeons by pressing one button because of your epic raid gear. That's not the game's fault, it's your for taking on challenges that you are overgeared for.

Again, you're assuming a level of arrogance in my position that I don't think is warranted. None of my position is 'Tanking is too easy'. My position is 'active mitigation is a dumb mechanic'.

[Alent]

I also played a lot back in the "keeping aggro is hard" times (specifically naxx and ulduar), and trying to claim that tanking was harder because of it is frankly insulting. Against single target, you did your rotation as best you can, and if anyone got aggro anyways, you taunted and yelled at them for not watching their threat. Nowadays...you do your rotation as best you can still, only it's your own DPS that suffers instead of the whole raid.

Naxx and Uld... what?

As a BC era raid tank, I will attest that patch 3.0 was the end of the "Keeping aggro is hard" era. Taunt immune bosses were the status quo up until the end of burning crusade. Prior to Wrath, you only taunted bosses if the devs wanted you to taunt bosses (Brutallus, etc.) and there were raid tactics like the Heroism/Bloodlust cycling in combination with Drums of War cycling that would out-threat all but the highest TPS tanks. I'm told it was even more fun in vanilla, but that was before my time.

At least I think it was Wrath that made bosses tauntable. I honestly don't remember, they made paladin threat generation so insane during wrath that I don't think I ever actually had to use taunt until cata.

[AgentPaper]

Ok. this argument is going a bit all over the place, so I'm going to try and concentrate it back on what we were talking about originally.

My point is that with the warrior's passive block chance, perks, and unavoidable mastery itemization, you're going to block most of the junk hitting you during the 6 second window when SB is recharging anyway, and when factored into the many other forms of mitigation you've got, assuming you're properly itemized AT ALL, the marginal difference in damage taken, barring some third-rail mechanic, is barely noticable.

Unless things have changed since cata, extra block chance above 100% is changed 1:1 into critical block chance. So instead of having a good chance of blocking 30% of incoming damage, you have a good chance of blocking 60% of incoming damage. Effectively, you're taking almost half as much damage while using shield block compared to otherwise. Shield block actually becomes more powerful with a high base block chance, not worse.

Again, I don't know how you can take what I said and conclude that I said 'Tanking is easy' at any point.

You said, "I'd much rather have the 'keep aggro on my targets' challenge back." I don't know how I could take that as anything other than "tanking is easier now because you don't have to worry about aggro". It seems you don't actually believe tanking is easy though, so I don't know what point you were trying to get across before.

[endur]

My warrior only recently began to truly appreciate the value of shield barrier.

Shield block was my primary use of rage in group content. But while soloing recently, I discovered that shield barrier combined with second wind could be highly useful on some of the difficult soloing fights (where second wind by itself wasn't enough).

I agree with those above who said that resolve never had the impact on my warrior tank that resolve has on my DK. My DK could solo many 5 man bosses due to resolve and self-healing, whereas my warrior can solo only a few 5 man bosses.

[endur]

As a BC era raid tank, I will attest that patch 3.0 was the end of the "Keeping aggro is hard" era. Taunt immune bosses were the status quo up until the end of burning crusade. Prior to Wrath, you only taunted bosses if the devs wanted you to taunt bosses (Brutallus, etc.) and there were raid tactics like the Heroism/Bloodlust cycling in combination with Drums of War cycling that would out-threat all but the highest TPS tanks. I'm told it was even more fun in vanilla, but that was before my time.

I definitely remember taunting in Wrath, for tank swaps (trial of crusade stacks on first boss, etc.) I don't remember BC well enough to recall if we used taunt for tank swaps (I mostly recall the off-tank tanking adds), but I believe your recollection is correct that taunt didn't affect bosses. I know that you couldn't tank swap with taunt in Vanilla.

[tigerusthegreat]

I'm wanting to restart my experiment from last expansion and time my leveling of characters to the cap for wod. I'm not going crazy and doing it from lvl 1, but rather the level I have them at now (which is mostly 90s). Issue being it will be a little bit before I can resub.

It'd be nice to be playing again as once I do resubmit I can probably farm gold for tokens easily enough. 30k isn't hard to get with wod.

[Icewraith]

Of course you can lose duration on Shield Block. You hit the button and the boss starts a three second cast. You take no melee hits during half of that Shield Block charge. If you had waited three seconds, you'd have a higher % uptime on Shield Block when taking blockable damage. Mindlessly using Shield block on CD with a boss that regularly stops autoattacking on CD could conceivably push uptime below 40%. If you have really good or really overgeared healers, nobody may notice. If you're doing progression content for your healer's gear and skill level, they may very well notice.

I don't miss the pre-3.0 "keeping aggro is hard" days. There actually was a period of time during Wrath where keeping agro was nearly impossible, but only for people learning how to tank in 5 mans on alts while accompanied by friends in full raid gear (who were often tanks getting a break and thus extremely hard to tank against). This hasn't happened to me in a while (they may have finally gotten rid of this), but there's also the occasional Ret paladin offspec that forgot to turn off Avenging Wrath that can be a bit of a problem during aoe.

Actually, keeping aggro is still hard even now for a newbie tank against an experienced, geared tank. I've had the displeasure of taking nearly every single artillery shot during HFC normal, second boss, with a newbie off-tank. (The boss uses artillery against the highest threat target, regardless of whether or not it has aggro. So If I'm at 100.1% threat, and the boss pulls off when you exceed 110% threat in melee, I'll still get the artillery debuff instead of the other tank).

I'll own up to the moniker of "high threat tank", I've even pugged a BRF with another warrior who claimed to be a high threat tank who had better gear and weapon than I did, and out-threated him every single time (one pull I did accidentally taunt, but the others were all legit).

[Alaris]

I don't know if this is really the place for it... but I've been scouring around for an active thread on one of the forums I visit... and I found this one.

I haven't played WoW in... well... 7-ish years. Since the start of the 1st expansion, if I recall. I played it briefly, then stopped.

With a recent sale, I decided to get back into it. Since my old account was stolen, I bought it on my new account for $5; at the very least, it's 30 days of free game time. I even picked up the expansion(s?).

I... don't know where to start. So many new races, several new classes (and another expansion next year?). I had a guild long ago, though they quit and moved on to different things by this point.

So...advice? A starting point. I had 3 classes I played around with; Hunter, Warlock & Druid. They were all pretty fun... but I feel like maybe I want to try something different?

Anyway, thanks in advance... I really look forward to picking this all back up again.