Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

[Icewalker]

Yeah, Goblins is a very serious comic, lots of brutal murder, speically once it begins shifting into serious when the art changes and color is added. Amazing comic...

And on the Redcloak topic, he also says "as well as my mentor, who last wore this cloak" when talking about who she killed, and apparently The Bearer of The Crimson Mantle is a "soulless nihilist who seeks to undo creation."

[EvilElitest]

He doesn't have a "grudge". There is a story reason for the Paladins of Azure City to fall, because *in the context of the story* Soon Kim had an irrational belief that total moral purity was more important than any other considerations when it came to power, and *in the context of the story* Soon Kim needs to be proven wrong. We need to be shown up front why having a dedicated array of warriors with iron self-discipline and total commitment is still *not* by itself enough to stand up to any threat. Why Azure City *needed* a ruler with a Chaotic alignment to make its decisions and suffered when they lost that ruler -- and why Soon Kim *needed* to hang out with a dispassionate mage, a sneaky illusionist, a simple goodhearted halfling, a nature-loving druid and a wild raging barbarian in order to accomplish his original goals, and trying to guard his Gate using nothing but people who shared his own personality was a drastic failure.

I miss the referfence your making here
sorry
from,
EE

[Renegade Paladin]

Excuse me? How do you know that? For all we know, she might just have had different skin color than them. They're not Kore, but close enough to him when it comes to dealing with presumably 'evil' races.

And how do you know that? Miko reacted to the crimson mantle, not the fact that he was a goblin.

I guess someone picked up several dozen ranks in Knowledge (What You're Talking About) without the rest of us, because we have no information on what the Crimson Mantle is, what Redcloak's family were doing when Miko killed them, and whether Miko's cause was truly righteous. (Miko? Make a snap judgment and let other people suffer for it? Naah...)

When did Miko kill Redcloak's family? In a mirror to what I just said above, Redcloak reacted to her being a Sapphire Guard paladin, not to her being Miko Miyazaki. In fact, it's highly likely that she was still in that monastery when Redcloak's family was killed by the previous generation of paladins.

[Poppatomus]

And how do you know that? Miko reacted to the crimson mantle, not the fact that he was a goblin.

When did Miko kill Redcloak's family? In a mirror to what I just said above, Redcloak reacted to her being a Sapphire Guard paladin, not to her being Miko Miyazaki. In fact, it's highly likely that she was still in that monastery when Redcloak's family was killed by the previous generation of paladins.

Right and Right.

The SG appears to be all about going after the Goblins. Its in the scribble interlude, my guess would be that, right now, some of those high level paladins that didn't have time to come back to the city are fighting some of those goblins.

[taraxia]

I miss the referfence your making here
sorry
from,
EE

The origin story? The Order of the Scribble? The people who imprisoned the Snarl in the first place? Those guys?

I think there's a not-very-subtle analogy here between the fact that the Order of the Scribble broke up and each swore to protect the Gates in their own way with no help from the others, and the fact that the Order of the Stick has only survived so far because of teamwork. We'll see how each and every one of the Order of the Scribble's defenses proves insufficient, because you need *all* the parts of an adventuring party working together in order to truly succeed.

So yes, there is a very important story reason for the Sapphire Guard to fail.

[taraxia]

And how do you know that? Miko reacted to the crimson mantle, not the fact that he was a goblin.

When did Miko kill Redcloak's family? In a mirror to what I just said above, Redcloak reacted to her being a Sapphire Guard paladin, not to her being Miko Miyazaki. In fact, it's highly likely that she was still in that monastery when Redcloak's family was killed by the previous generation of paladins.

Good point. Though Goblins canonically age pretty quickly and die in their 30s, so Redcloak's family can't have died that long ago.

[Tmabbbb]

There is one other way to break a paladin's honor: Jump on a zombie dragon, and vomit sushi on them.

[taraxia]

Yeah, Goblins is a very serious comic, lots of brutal murder, speically once it begins shifting into serious when the art changes and color is added. Amazing comic...

And on the Redcloak topic, he also says "as well as my mentor, who last wore this cloak" when talking about who she killed, and apparently The Bearer of The Crimson Mantle is a "soulless nihilist who seeks to undo creation."

In the opinion of one of his worst enemies, sure. I wouldn't judge the Crimson Mantle based on the words of a Sapphire Guard Paladin, or vice versa.

[Solara]

In fact, I think a better punchline for the Saphire slaughter strip would have been Xykon saying "It's almost like the universe is trying to force some form of arbitrary balance between those who can bend reality to their will and those who can not, but FAILED MISERABLY!"

That would actually have been hilarious. :D But of course trying to be funny at all would have been totally inappropriate for the gut-wrenching last panel, so I'm glad he didn't go that route.

If anyone's accusing Rich of being a murderer I missed it, but I begin to have the sinking feeling that he does have a grudge against the paladin class for whatever reason. It comes out in the way they're treated so cavalierly in the story.

Seriously, I'd like to know what gives people this idea. Both the coolest NPC ever and the most complex/tragic character in the entire strip are paladins, and the 'cavalier' way the SG was slaughtered by the main villain whose whole MO revolves around slaughtering people cavalierly only served to make them martyrs, whose deaths touched readers far more than you'd think characters with only an insignificant bit part as cannon fodder would have a right too. Really it's a testement to Rich's skill that he could make everyone care so much about a bunch of nameless characters that were only around for two strips. I suppose a lot of it is the attention to detail in the character design...because I don't remember seeing anybody shedding any tears over the NPC guards that were getting butchered outside. (Or the hobgoblins, or all those defenseless sleeping goblins Roy killed, for that matter...) I wonder if this controversy would even be here if the paladins had all been wearing identical uniforms.

But let's forget nameless NPCs for a moment, how about the ones with actual personality and quite a few fans? Were people accusing Rich of being sick and twisted and mocking his fans and the very concept of morality, 'violating trust', clearly hating and wanting to humiliate cops, etc. when Nale cavalierly murdered the police chief, for instance?

[Renegade Paladin]

Well I was pissed off about the Chief, but that was at Nale, not Rich.

[taraxia]

Well I was pissed off about the Chief, but that was at Nale, not Rich.

Getting actually angry (as opposed to pretend-angry) at fictional characters for something they do to other fictional characters is pretty dumb.

It's not as dumb as getting actually angry at a *real person* for something a fictional character does to other fictional characters, though.

If Rich actually *wanted* to treat Paladins cavalierly, he wouldn't've given them any character in the first place, and wouldn't've spent all the time necessary to painstakingly draw all those unique-looking characters you see in #447 that everyone got so attached to, to the point of picking out *favorites* from among them.

That's the point. He made the Paladins characters to care about and sympathize with. He made them *interesting*. *Then* he brought it home, hard, that they were still just mooks who could be easily killed by a high-level character. That's *cool*. That makes Xykon's mindless slaughter actually mean something and be something worth opposing.

You see? He could've easily *actually* disrespected the Sapphire Guard by making them identical background characters, like he frequently does with Goblins and Hobgoblins. He could've elided the fight with them entirely as unimportant. Instead he chooses to try to provoke a reaction by bringing their sacrifice home, and the irony is that people *do* get outraged and pained by the event and *blame him for it*. The reason you feel empathy for the SG is because he manipulated the comic to make you do it. And now you're blaming him for not feeling empathy for them and getting mad at him based on the empathy he *created* in you and claiming he doesn't share it, simply because you're now feeling the disappointment and rage *he wanted you to feel*.

It's like if I did a performance of one of Hitler's speeches and got people yelling at me for how evil "I" was being, even though the point of my performance would be to *show someone evil*. It's just like when everyone got mad at Miko for being a hateful, unpleasant character, *even though she's supposed to be hateful and unpleasant*.

[Callista]

It's silly to think that just because you're a Paladin you deserve to die heroically. If you aren't strong enough then, regardless of how holy and upstanding you are, you're still going to be humiliated and massacred by the immensely powerful Lich.

I know this is a totally Western perspective which these paladins probably wouldn't have shared, but I think they did die heroically. A Paladin has enough ranks in Knowledge: Religion to know what a Lich is and how dangerous and nigh-unkillable they are. There have got to be legends all over the place about dead guys who just keep coming back.

And what do they do? Run away, because they know they can't win? No; because the gate has nobody better to guard it, and they know they're the only ones between Xykon and what could be the end of the world; and if they have one chance in a million of stopping him, they'll take it. Every one of those paladins knew it was extremely likely that they'd die ignominiously and probably be turned into zombies. There's very little honor in that; but there's less honor in turning tail and running.

That Xykon used such a disrespectful method to kill the paladins is tragic; and the way the paladins saw it, they probably lost all honor at that time. But I guess my sheltered little Western mind doesn't see it like that. I think, no matter how they died or how little dignity they had in the end, they never lost one speck of honor. Not one of them ran; not one of them willingly did anything a paladin shouldn't do. They died heroically, fighting a nearly hopeless battle against unbeatable odds.

And remember, they did hurt Xykon before they died--Maybe, like Roy's decision to take those arrows for Elan, their sacrifice made a critical difference.

[Grasilich]

And what do they do? Run away, because they know they can't win? No; because the gate has nobody better to guard it, and they know they're the only ones between Xykon and what could be the end of the world; and if they have one chance in a million of stopping him, they'll take it. Every one of those paladins knew it was extremely likely that they'd die ignominiously and probably be turned into zombies. There's very little honor in that; but there's less honor in turning tail and running.

I don't deny that they were brave and honourable to do what they did, Callista. They stood against a terrible enemy and didn't give any ground. What I was trying to get at when I said that is the idea that the fight should have been closer just because the SG happened to be Paladins is really false.

All the detractors of 448 are all essentially saying: 'But they're PALADINS! They can't die like that!' But just because one is a Paladin doesn't mean one is entitled to go down in a blaze of glory. Sometimes the good guys can fail and suffer a completely and utterly humiliating defeat. The bad guys wouldn't be nearly as bad if not.

So yeah, that's what I was trying to say there.

Incidentally, I don't think the damage to Xykon is that serious.... Roy gave him a crack in the skull, which seemed to be much more significant. Plus can't he heal himself with Finger of Death?

[Nedlum]

Why Azure City *needed* a ruler with a Chaotic alignment to make its decisions and suffered when they lost that ruler -- and why Soon Kim *needed* to hang out with a dispassionate mage, a sneaky illusionist, a simple goodhearted halfling, a nature-loving druid and a wild raging barbarian in order to accomplish his original goals, and trying to guard his Gate using nothing but people who shared his own personality was a drastic failure.

I like this theory.

Both the coolest NPC ever...

To be clear: do you mean Hinjo?

[factotum]

Incidentally, I don't think the damage to Xykon is that serious.... Roy gave him a crack in the skull, which seemed to be much more significant. Plus can't he heal himself with Finger of Death?

Spell description for Finger of Death specifies the target has to be a living creature, so no, he can't heal himself that way--that's why he had to get Tsukiko to do it for him.

[sun_tzu]

I guess someone picked up several dozen ranks in Knowledge (What You're Talking About) without the rest of us, because we have no information on what the Crimson Mantle is, what Redcloak's family were doing when Miko killed them, and whether Miko's cause was truly righteous. (Miko? Make a snap judgment and let other people suffer for it? Naah...)



Sure. I feel some sympathy for the paladins, though not that much because they are, after all, fictional characters I know nothing about.



He doesn't have a "grudge". There is a story reason for the Paladins of Azure City to fall, because *in the context of the story* Soon Kim had an irrational belief that total moral purity was more important than any other considerations when it came to power, and *in the context of the story* Soon Kim needs to be proven wrong. We need to be shown up front why having a dedicated array of warriors with iron self-discipline and total commitment is still *not* by itself enough to stand up to any threat. Why Azure City *needed* a ruler with a Chaotic alignment to make its decisions and suffered when they lost that ruler -- and why Soon Kim *needed* to hang out with a dispassionate mage, a sneaky illusionist, a simple goodhearted halfling, a nature-loving druid and a wild raging barbarian in order to accomplish his original goals, and trying to guard his Gate using nothing but people who shared his own personality was a drastic failure.



Yeah. I think the whole Miko/Hinjo dichotomy was meant to demonstrate that. Rich is perfectly aware that Paladins can be spun as horrible annoying stereotypes or as decent characters, and Miko and Hinjo are meant to reflect that. The fact that Miko is very unpopular among her fellow Paladins and that we *don't* see the majority of Paladins act that way is a sign that Rich does, in fact, understand what you're talking about.

Spot-on, I believe. Excellent analysis.

[idioscosmos]

Thing is that A.) Xykon was totally in character, and B.) from a writing standpoint, giving the "Blue Man Group" (Sapphire Guard) a nice, dramatic, "Alamo" style death would SLOW THE PLOT.

Jinkies folks, this siege has been going on all year and you guys want to extend it another week? The Giant did a good thing from a writers standpoint - he gave you a little Xykon candy then moved the plot along. They were no-name NPC's - you knew they were going to die. In a very real sense they were born to die*.

Heck, their deaths caused more damage and were spend less stupidly than the half-million Brits that died at Passchendaele - I don't hear anyone complaining about that**.



*Someone needs to make a "Born to Die" Sapphire Guard T-shirt.

** 1.) Bombard the Germans 'till the ground turns to mud 6 feet deep in parts. 2.) March the men shoulder-to-shoulder into German machine gun and artillery fire. 3.) Repeat 'till 4 happens. 4.) Magic fairies cover our advance! We break through German lines! Release the cavalry (I'm not kidding - they held the horses in reserve to exploit their "breakthrough" a 'la Napoleon)!!! 5.) We're home by Christmas! Yay!

[Callista]

I don't deny that they were brave and honourable to do what they did, Callista. They stood against a terrible enemy and didn't give any ground. What I was trying to get at when I said that is the idea that the fight should have been closer just because the SG happened to be Paladins is really false.

Well, it is kind of weird to say that paladins outclassed by 10 levels shouldn't die quickly. I'll give you that; I'd have thought it was a bit deus ex machina if they didn't die quickly. I guess maybe the kicker isn't that they got slaughtered, but that they didn't get to die fighting evil directly... rather they ended up insane and killing each other in such an ignominious way. I think if Xykon had gotten them with meteor swarm, giving the ones who rolled low on damage a chance to fight a bit before they got roasted too, we'd have had the same slaughter but fewer disappointed people.

Like I said, my opinion is that they did die heroically; but it was messy and ugly and showed just how evil Xykon is.

I second the T-shirt.