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    Orc in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    In general, True Strike is seen as pretty useless, completely outclassed in terms of raw firepower, and in terms of out-of-combat utility. Let's fix it!

    Here's some ideas I've got, which can be mixed and mashed as needed. Each one individually is a pretty strong buff, but some combination may be required. The numbers may be completely wrong, but the concepts themselves are what I'm interested in. If something is broken, tell me why it's broken, as that will probably help the creative process.

    Spoiler: TRUE STRIKE BUFFS
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    - No longer requires concentration

    - Add proficiency to damage (yay! True Strike now scales!)

    - The first attack by anybody against the target has advantage, consuming the mark.

    - All attacks against the target on the next turn have advantage (this one I'm really unsure about, it might need a cap)

    - Can be cast as a bonus action / bonus action AND reaction combined (or something)

    - Doesn't need require line of sight

    - If the attack hits, grants some kind of debuff (disadvantage on saves against fear? For some reason?)

    - Can be used with non-attack roll single target spells (the enemy has disadvantage against the spell)


    Thoughts? I'm sure some other cantrips seem pretty lacklustre, maybe we can fix those as well.
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    Kryx's Avatar

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    See buffing bottom of the barrel in my signature for buffing bad cantrips/spells.

    True strike was the one we couldn't agree on. You have some decent ideas. As in that thread I would strongly suggest against a bonus action unless you want it to be mandatory for some classes.

    To address your other ideas:
    Removing concentration would be fine.
    Prof to damage would be good, but balanced
    First hit from anyone being advantage already exists in the help action. No need to duplicate
    All attacks having advantage is much too strong. Casters have mass help action now.
    Bonus action: see my thread as mentioned above. It would be cast every round by several classes.
    I agree with no requiring line of sight - it used to be a self buff in 3.x.
    It doesn't need a condition. It's about hitting well.
    It is designed to hit well, not cause people to fail saves. Totally different.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    See buffing bottom of the barrel in my signature for buffing bad cantrips/spells.

    True strike was the one we couldn't agree on. You have some decent ideas. As in that thread I would strongly suggest against a bonus action unless you want it to be mandatory for some classes.

    To address your other ideas:
    Removing concentration would be fine.
    Prof to damage would be good, but balanced
    First hit from anyone being advantage already exists in the help action. No need to duplicate
    All attacks having advantage is much too strong. Casters have mass help action now.
    Bonus action: see my thread as mentioned above. It would be cast every round by several classes.
    I agree with no requiring line of sight - it used to be a self buff in 3.x.
    It doesn't need a condition. It's about hitting well.
    It is designed to hit well, not cause people to fail saves. Totally different.
    Didn't think about the help action. I guess being able to help from a distance has a tiny amount of utility but... meh. For the last one, it's was so Hex, Sacred Flame etc. wouldn't be left out. Makes no sense, but anyway. And looking at your sig, yours looks a lot better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas
    I wonder how big something has to be before it gets its own weather.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kymme
    You can do whatever the heck you want and I'll follow like a starving sycophant so long as I can read it.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by spwack View Post
    For the last one, it's was so Hex, Sacred Flame etc. wouldn't be left out. Makes no sense, but anyway.
    Those are not attacks. True Strike enhances attacks. Attacks being different from saves is how 5e works. Saves can't crit, but some also get half damage on a save which is actually really good.

    Quote Originally Posted by spwack View Post
    And looking at your sig, yours looks a lot better.
    Thanks - I may pick up that process again. A bit busy at the moment. I did some higher level spells as well - I'd love your input there when I do.

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    Vortling's Avatar

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Based off the flavor text of the spell I had wondered about buffing it in a different direction. The flavor text mentions "you gain brief insight into the target's defenses". What if the insight was longer than brief? Which is to suggest when you cast true strike on a target you'd find out its AC, saves, immunities, resistances, weaknesses, and so forth. Maybe not all of them with one casting, at least not at level 1. Would that make it worth an action in combat?

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortling View Post
    Based off the flavor text of the spell I had wondered about buffing it in a different direction. The flavor text mentions "you gain brief insight into the target's defenses". What if the insight was longer than brief? Which is to suggest when you cast true strike on a target you'd find out its AC, saves, immunities, resistances, weaknesses, and so forth. Maybe not all of them with one casting, at least not at level 1. Would that make it worth an action in combat?
    that would pretty much invalidate knowledge skills which you should be using to determine that kind of thing.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Let Knowledge checks be no action-just something you remember.

    True Strike requires an action, making the oppurtunity cost much higher. Allow a save, and once the target makes its save it's immune to True Strike from that person for 24 hours.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    again, you're pretty much invalidating a major portion of 4 skills. I don't like what they did to invisibility, but I understand why they did it, and it's the same reason you shouldn't let true strike tell you all the key information about a monster you're fighting.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    True Strike. Cast as a bonus action, keeps the Concentration mechanic but extends it to 1 minute. Sets the target's AC to 10 for one weapon attack by the caster. That's the "true" AC of the target after all. This side-steps a lot of the issues with true strike using the advantage mechanic, keeps it very simple so still in line with 5e's design, doesn't make it so awesome that you have to have it, but at the same time makes it good enough that you want to have it.
    Last edited by dropbear8mybaby; 2015-08-09 at 06:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Gets snagged by a Rogue with Magic Initiate VHuman. +5 to hit means he hits 80% of the time with sneak attack (which only requires a nearby ally, or not even that if Swashbuckler). By level 5, it's a +7, hitting 90% of the time.

    Bit overpowered, methinks.
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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by dropbear8mybaby View Post
    True Strike. Cast as a bonus action, keeps the Concentration mechanic but extends it to 1 minute. Sets the target's AC to 10 for one weapon attack by the caster. That's the "true" AC of the target after all. This side-steps a lot of the issues with true strike using the advantage mechanic, keeps it very simple so still in line with 5e's design, doesn't make it so awesome that you have to have it, but at the same time makes it good enough that you want to have it.
    What's the target class for this version? I can't see either a sorcerer or a wizard wanting to use this version as their weapon attacks are meh at the best of times. This looks more like something you'll see taken by the gishey classes like eldritch knights, arcane tricksters, and valor bards. I could even see a human paladin picking this up with magic initiate to use with smite.

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    dropbear8mybaby's Avatar

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortling View Post
    What's the target class for this version?
    So you think it should be just attack and not specifically weapon attack?

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by dropbear8mybaby View Post
    True Strike. Cast as a bonus action, keeps the Concentration mechanic but extends it to 1 minute. Sets the target's AC to 10 for one weapon attack by the caster. That's the "true" AC of the target after all. This side-steps a lot of the issues with true strike using the advantage mechanic, keeps it very simple so still in line with 5e's design, doesn't make it so awesome that you have to have it, but at the same time makes it good enough that you want to have it.
    Not even close to balanced.

    firstly you're removing the ability for casters to use this on spells.

    Secondly any weapon user with this as a cantrip essentially never misses after the first round.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    firstly you're removing the ability for casters to use this on spells.
    You missed my second post that was in reply to this very issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Secondly any weapon user with this as a cantrip essentially never misses after the first round.
    Well, it only lasts for one attack, uses up their bonus action and can be interrupted. Bonus actions are pretty precious and compete with a lot of other things as well. And an AC of 10 really isn't that big a deal. If you look through the ACs of monsters in the MM, it actually only amounts to a roughly +3 bonus to hit for one attack because AC's generally aren't very high across the board anyway.

    Extend it to spell attacks as well (or just any attack) and require a saving throw for the target as well.
    Last edited by dropbear8mybaby; 2015-08-10 at 01:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by dropbear8mybaby View Post
    Well, it only lasts for one attack, uses up their bonus action and can be interrupted. Bonus actions are pretty precious and compete with a lot of other things as well.
    Bonus action uses entirely depends on class. Classes like Wizard and Sorcerer have few uses of bonus actions and rarely get hit. Therefore a bonus action concentration spell is not very limiting at all to a blaster.
    Even using True Strike + Fire bolt would be a significant boost in DPR. Plus there are many others like Contagion, Dispel Evil and Good (Dismissal), EB/Scorching Ray (First Beam), Guiding Bolt, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by dropbear8mybaby View Post
    Extend it to spell attacks as well (or just any attack) and require a saving throw for the target as well.
    So you want to balance your unbalanced proposal by adding more saves on top? So now you must hit and they must fail? This doesn't follow the 5e paradigm at all. The base ability shouldn't need extra balance aspects.

    Quote Originally Posted by dropbear8mybaby View Post
    And an AC of 10 really isn't that big a deal. If you look through the ACs of monsters in the MM, it actually only amounts to a roughly +3 bonus to hit for one attack because AC's generally aren't very high across the board anyway.
    An AC of 10 is a significantly huge deal against creatures of higher challenge. If you're looking to give a boost to accuracy then use 5e's system for doing so: Advantage. Your way is horrendously broken and gives up to +10 to hit vs higher AC targets as you increase in level.

    A bonus action true strike is inherently unbalanced. In addition to the reasons above it significantly weakens any option that already provides advantage. Here are some things that are weakened by easy advantage:
    Pack tactics
    Rogue flanking
    Prone condition
    Paralyzed condition
    Unconscious condition
    Grappling
    Feat: Mounted Combatant
    Hiding and invisibility in combat
    Attacking creatures squeezed into a small space
    Help action in combat
    Vow of emnity
    Assassinate
    Versatile Trickster
    Conditions that grant disadvantage on attack rolls that would be (under house rule) neutralized by flanking:
    Compelled Duel
    Poisoned (condition)
    Prone (condition)

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    dropbear8mybaby's Avatar

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    You're a very angry person, aren't you.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    I was purposefully thorough in outlining the issues with your suggestion. My apologies if I was rude.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    If making True Strike a bonus action is too much, one way I was thinking of buffing it was to add, "If the attack made using True Strike misses, you may recast True Strike on the same target as a bonus action." I realize that it arguably doesn't go far enough to make True Strike competitive, but I would rather experiment with weak buffs than to have it jump straight to overpowered.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiber View Post
    If making True Strike a bonus action is too much, one way I was thinking of buffing it was to add, "If the attack made using True Strike misses, you may recast True Strike on the same target as a bonus action." I realize that it arguably doesn't go far enough to make True Strike competitive, but I would rather experiment with weak buffs than to have it jump straight to overpowered.
    That sounds perfectly reasonable, though likely weak.

    The issue with True Strike is you have to spend an action to be more likely to succeed at a later action. It is somewhat like Help in that no one really wants to use it much in combat, but it can be great for resource management of spells.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    What's wrong with just making it an auto-hit? Like it always has been?

    Throw in the advice that you should still roll just in case you get a crit, and there you go. I still wouldn't waste a cantrips known on it, but at least it would have a use.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    I would definitely use it as is if I was a caster worried about conserving big spells.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx
    I was purposefully thorough in outlining the issues with your suggestion. My apologies if I was rude.
    No apologies required, your post wasn't rude. Cantrips should be (relatively speaking) worse than spell slot costing choices. True Strike is basically fine because it costs nothing in terms of short/long rest resources.

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    Default Re: Buffing True Strike and Other Fun Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    Cantrips should be (relatively speaking) worse than spell slot costing choices. True Strike is basically fine because it costs nothing in terms of short/long rest resources.
    I do agree that True Strike is a bit weak. It is great if your goal is to ensure your big spell hits. It sucks otherwise.

    I think it could use some relatively minor buffs. The one I came up with in the other thread was to increase the duration to 1 minute (keep concentration) and allow it to be self cast without a target (allows for prebuffing). There are some other ideas in that bottom of the barrel thread, but many use bonus action - some others that don't. Another one was to use 1 min w/ concentration and make it not expire after the first hit (still requires a target).

    The problem is True Strike can very easily get overpowered or underpowered.

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