Under represented classes/prestige classes

[Brova]

Yes, well, if you will take literally the worst truenamer utterance in the entire book as an example, then I'm not sure that's going to help you. And, no-one cares how many books you're using. It really isn't the point.

Here's a fun fact: You cannot prove that Truenamers are good by disagreeing with my arguments*. You need to actually bring up an effect that a Wizard would not be embarrassed to use at your level.

*: Actually, you can't even disprove my arguments just by disagreeing with them. You need evidence and arguments of your own.

Isn't it funny how truenamers can sell their utterances but rogues can't sneak attack undead?

Actually, you've proven that you can buy utterances, not sell them.

It's also funny that "Truenamer" is probably an answer to the actual question being asked and "Rogue" likely isn't, but you know, we're probably not going to get back near the topic, anyway.

No, that would imply that the Truenamer should ever be used.

Also, insofar as "Flask Rogue" is distinct from "Flanking Rogue", it is underused.

[Troacctid]

You can't prove Truenamers are bad by comparing them with Wizards either.

[Nifft]

Was the thread topic, "Which classes are over represented in internet fights"?

If not, maybe we could drop the Truenamer argument?

[Brova]

You can't prove Truenamers are bad by comparing them with Wizards either.

Well, I'm primarily comparing them to Rogues. So Jormengand is free to make that comparison. Or to Beguilers. Or Dread Necromancers. Or Sorcerers. Or Druids. Or Spirit Shaman. Or any number of classes I would not be embarrassed to play.

But actually, I can. If "good" is "able to contribute to a party with a reasonably optimized Wizard", then proving that Truenamers can't do that makes them bad. Interestingly, the Flask Rogue can totally do that, because he brings enough damage to the table to kill things in a round and a half.

If not, maybe we could drop the Truenamer argument?

I'm totally willing to do that. You'll recall that this fight started when Jormengand brought up an argument from another thread (aside: isn't that banned here?) where I explained that Truenamers suck because they don't work without something that breaks the game for competent characters and even then can't really contribute.

[Jormengand]

Here's a fun fact: You cannot prove that Truenamers are good by disagreeing with my arguments*. You need to actually bring up an effect that a Wizard would not be embarrassed to use at your level.

So, you're totally not measuring by what the wizard can do, right?

*: Actually, you can't even disprove my arguments just by disagreeing with them. You need evidence and arguments of your own.

What can be asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence.

Actually, you've proven that you can buy utterances, not sell them.

Ah, yes, and clearly, all of those people who buy utterances are buying them from nowhere.

No, that would imply that the Truenamer should ever be used.

Clearly, classes that you dislike are terrible and shouldn't be used.

Also, insofar as "Flask Rogue" is distinct from "Flanking Rogue", it is underused.

Holy hot damn, you actually said something that was correct.

And yeah, after having to blue-text half my argument because your argument is grasping at ethereal straws (and you can't hit ethereal straws, because you can't utter Ether Reforged), I'm out. Have fun.

[Nifft]

(aside: isn't that banned here?)

I have no opinion on such things, since they are the province of the moderators.

If you suspect such activity, I guess you ought to use the report feature to contact a mod, and link the other thread.

[Invader]

Yeah can we not totally derail the thread with a non related topic please.

[Brova]

@Derail: I'm out. Jormengand has (again) demanded that I follow the double secret rules and stormed off after claiming that wanting character to be effective is unfair.

More on topic, can we also talk about stuff that's over-represented? Because I don't see the appeal of Mage of the Arcane Order. You burn two feats for the ability to cast a few spells spotaneously. How is that better than Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought, or just leaving some utility slots unfilled? I kind of get it if you're a Sorcerer (go go gadet Spell Versatility!), but I don't see the appeal of it for Wizards.

So, you're totally not measuring by what the wizard can do, right?

You'll note that before you posted, I responded to Troacctid making the same argument.

What can be asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence.

Okay, here's some evidence.

At 5th level tank monsters have about 50 HP and a touch AC of roughly 12. A 5th level Flask Rogue gets two attacks at +7 or so, dealing about 5d6 damage each, for a total of 35 or so a round. That's about a round and a half to lethal.

Ah, yes, and clearly, all of those people who buy utterances are buying them from nowhere.

Look, there are not rules to sell spells. That's certainly an oversight, but it is actually true.

If you suspect such activity, I guess you ought to use the report feature to contact a mod, and link the other thread.

Nah. That would feel like cheating. If I beat Jormengand by calling the mods, it's not really winning.

[Jormengand]

I have no opinion on such things, since they are the province of the moderators.

If you suspect such activity, I guess you ought to use the report feature to contact a mod, and link the other thread.

The rules are against "Harassment of other posters, such as repeatedly following them from thread to thread to dispute them, personally" - I don't think that a comment to Curmudgeon which was meant to be a "Yes, he probably is doing that" rather than a criticism, and certainly not a repeated one, qualifies - and "carry[ing] over anger from a debate in another thread into a new discussion". I was not, in fact, angry, nor attempting to incite it. But anyway, should we continue actually discussing what we're here to discuss?

Like, how I've never actually seen Binder or Shadowcaster, except one game that never got off the ground.

Nah. That would feel like cheating. If I beat Jormengand by calling the mods, it's not really winning.

Given that we've both said we're out, I won't drag this on by responding to your arguments, but I would question why you feel such a personal rivalry against me?

[Dondasch]

Yeah can we not totally derail the thread with a non related topic please.

In that case, let's discuss why the two worthwhile Incarnum classes get underplayed.

I assume the main reason is DMs/players not liking/understanding Magic of Incarnum, but the Playground tends to look on it pretty favorable, so I'd expect to see it more often here.

[Brova]

Given that we've both said we're out, I won't drag this on by responding to your arguments, but I would question why you feel such a personal rivalry against me?

It's not personal, it's just that you are wrong. If I got you banned, I would not have the satisfaction of demonstrating that you are wrong. Same thing with Monk Guy.

I assume the main reason is DMs/players not liking/understanding Magic of Incarnum, but the Playground tends to look on it pretty favorable, so I'd expect to see it more often here.

I dunno. I don't really buy Incarnate as worthwhile, but I think the reason the Totemist doesn't get played is that most people in games that would accept it would rather play a Druid. Like, the class is sweet, and I would totally rock a Totem Rager build, but I can't really see playing one where the Druid is on the table.

[Troacctid]

Incarnate is actually quite solid, especially at low levels, where they can roflstomp CR-appropriate encounters like nobody's business. The power of soulmelds starts to fall off later, but you still have a lot of utility, and all it takes is a single dip in Crusader or Warblade to go right back to being a melee monster, or in a familiar-granting class to start breaking the action economy with Share Soulmeld. Even single-classed, you're still easily at the level of, say, a Binder.

This is all without being evil. If you have access to evil soulmelds, then you can get some pretty stellar minionmancy going as soon as 2nd level--that necrocarnum zombie is kind of a powerhouse.

[Curmudgeon]

Anyway, I think a lot of those complaints are kind of weak. The cost thing is not particularly huge if you hit consistently ...

Except you generally don't. You're at -2 to hit at 10', -4 at 20', and -6 at 30' (the limit of ranged sneak attack). That's going to negate the advantage of touch attack vs. regular attack for all Light and Medium armors. With only 3/4 BAB you'll miss a lot of the time.

And I don't buy the feats objection. Two-Weapon Fighting is something every Rogue wants,

The last hundred or so Rogues I've played didn't want it. That's another -2 to attacks, which means your ranged touch attacks aren't doing any better than an archer's normal ranged attacks, even against Heavy armor.

Far Shot is probably only necessary if you expect lots of wide open encounters,

See above. I'm staying strictly within the close range at which sneak attack is allowed.

and Quick Draw is redundant with the use of Sleight of Hand to draw something as a free action (drawing something with Sleight of Hand is normally a standard action, but you can take a -20 penalty on the check to be detected if you do it as a free action).

That doesn't work very well.

You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you.
...
Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
...
Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.

You need an observer to hide any weapon with Sleight of Hand. Then drawing a hidden weapon requires a cheese-tolerant DM.

You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

I've only seen a DM allow free action Sleight of Hand until you're observed, after which time it's a standard action for the rest of the encounter.

A better build is probably looking at Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Item Familiar ...

I've never played in a single game where the Item Familiar variant rules were allowed.

[Brova]

Incarnate: What soulmelds are you using? The idea of melee-ing with simple weapons, medium armor, d6 hit points, and poor BAB doesn't seem good.

Except you generally don't. You're at -2 to hit at 10', -4 at 20', and -6 at 30' (the limit of ranged sneak attack). That's going to negate the advantage of touch attack vs. regular attack for all Light and Medium armors. With only 3/4 BAB you'll miss a lot of the time.

Let's assume you're a Halfling. You're looking at 20 Dex, a size bonus, a racial bonus with thrown weapons, and the Point Blank Shot bonus. That's +8 at level one, against opponents with no armor or Dex bonuses to AC. That's already reasonably good odds at anything other than 30ft range, and the number you're targeting basically doesn't scale. No core CR 20 monster has a flat-footed touch AC of more than 10, and at that point you're rolling a +8 or so on your lowest attack with the full penalties for range, TWF, and Rapid Shot.

That doesn't work very well.
You need an observer to hide any weapon with Sleight of Hand. Then drawing a hidden weapon requires a cheese-tolerant DM.
I've only seen a DM allow free action Sleight of Hand until you're observed, after which time it's a standard action for the rest of the encounter.

That's just not how it works. I can imagine that it might get nerfed, but then you're getting into pretty unpredictable territory.

I've never played in a single game where the Item Familiar variant rules were allowed.

That's fair. Although, in the context of the discussion, it's a much bigger hit to Truenamers.

[Pluto!]

Very low levels, Incarnate has an at-will 3d6 ranged touch attack, which is a pretty big deal for the first few HD. And even 1-round flight is a pretty big deal at levels 1-3.

Then Necrocarnum Circlet's zombies come in and can be pretty strong.

Granted, the class kind of sucks otherwise, and the numeric bonuses get overstated pretty hard on these boards, considering that they stack awkwardly with other bonuses and Incarnates rarely have the feat slots or abilities to leverage those bonuses into something useful.

[marphod]

Yes. Not the best spellcasting list (Sorcerer/Wizard - Sorcerer if you're being technical), not the best spellcasting progression (Ur-Priest or Beholder Mage), but the best spellcasting mechanic. Specifically, the deal where you know all the spells on your list and cast any of them whenever you want. Obviously that's not necessarily better than the Wizard, because the Wizard has better progression and a better list, but it's very good. It's basically the only spellcasting mechanic I'd drop behind a level for. Seriously, imagine how nuts the Sorcerer would be if his spells known was "everything on the Sorcerer/Wizard list".

They'd be the Magister (or any of the other full casters with a few feats) from Arcana Evolved. Which, other than a little flexibility that it takes a Wizard some effort to do, is on the same power level.

First, I don't think that's as much of a limitation as you seem to believe. Most games aren't going to be "all sources, go nuts", they're going to be "Core + 1 to 3 books". And that's certainly an advantage, but it's not insurmountable.

You are playing different games from what I end up playing.

My experience is 'Core, Completes, Races of, MIC, SpC, and +((1d4)d6) books.'

And then there is some irony with your example builds not only requiring more than Core, but also requiring Dragon Magazine.

Second, you're underestimating the lists themselves. Beguilers get charm person and friends, most of the illusion spells in core, and a bunch of other random utility. That's some of the best core spells. Dread Necromancers get two of the top three minion making spells (animate dead, planar binding), a bunch of debuffs and save or dies, and some very solid class features.

Charm Person is great until you get Mind Affecting Immunity on everyone or non-humanoid opponents, which is pretty typical. Charm Monster comes online just about the time that immunity is common.

Some of the best spells from Core? Maybe. It is lacking Prestidigitation, Protection from Alignment, Grease, most of the ability drain spells, any of the summons, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, most of the Save-or-Die/Suck spells, the ability to actually hurt something (Doesn't matter if something is currently sucking if you can't kill it before it recovers), Fear effects, Transformation effects, etc. It lacks mobility spells or get-out-of-doom affects (other than Invisibility). It lacks a whole lot.

You get lesser planar binding at 10th level. The last level of Dread Necromancer you should take is 8th level. Rainbow Servant gives you magic circle against evil at 1st level and is probably the best PrC for a Dread Necromancer. Or, every single Dread Necromancer that can cast planar binding should be able to cast magic circle against evil. If for some reason you can't take Rainbow Servant, you can buy a scroll. Or have a Wizard cohort. Or pay a Wizard to cast magic circle against evil. Or take Arcane Disciple (Good Domain). Seriously, if not having magic circle against evil on your list is a major obstacle, you are probably not playing at a level of optimization where you can (ab)use planar binding.

A bit shaky? I don't really think so. You presumably have a couple of party members (or undead minions) who can ready actions to dogpile whatever outsider shows up out of planar binding. Unless you're referring to some rules issue I've not heard of.

That's moving goalposts. But, given that few base classes are worth taking past 5th level or so, I'm not going to object too much.

However, a single PrC cannot save any class. There are characters that will not qualify for Rainbow Servant -- like most Dread Necromancers (to get both, you have to be Lawful Neutral or True Neutral). Buying a scroll isn't a solution -- Use Magic Device isn't a real solution as it isn't on your class skill list. And anything that involves Leadership is a Poor Game Design issue.

Classes should have the ability to use their class features. Planar Binding is a spell on the DN's list. They should be able to use it effectively, which requires having Magic Circle. That Magic Circle isn't on the list is just one example of a poor class design.

Your comment about not optimizing enough to use Planar Binding is both an ad hominem attack and a non sequitor. As such, I'll ignore it.

Without Magic Circle or Dimensional Anchor (or similar), what is to stop you Planar Bound creature from JUST LEAVING? Nothing.

You get acid fog, circle of death, eyebite, and planar binding at 6th. At 7th you get destruction and finger of death. That's not great, but it's a pair of save or dies. At 8th you only get symbol of death, but that spell looks nuts. It lasts until discharged, and you can put it on clothing. It's kind of a lot like having a 60ft aura that kills anything with 150 or less HP. 9th level is nice, with an AoE save or die in wail of the banshee plus a souped up enervation in energy drain.

One or two spell effect does not a class make. One or two spells per spell level does not a class make.

Get Immunity to Death Effects and Negative Energy, and the DN has severe issues.

By the by, Symbol of Death kills creatures whose combined HP is 150 or less. With a Fort save and has restrictions against offensive use. The Death Domain's feature is quite probably better.

Feats: Grab Tomb Tainted Soul at 1st level because you are a Dread Necromancer. Pick up an item creation feat and a metamagic feat somewhere. Also Skill Focus (Knowledge [Religion]) for Divine Oracle. Ideally you'd jam Acquire Familiar and Improved Familiar, but it's not really needed. Also, take a feat that gives you some kind of divine spellcasting.

Some kind of feat to gain divine spellcasting ... which feat are you talking?

Arcane Disciple makes the spells learned Arcane. Domains gained are arcane spells for arcane casters unless specified otherwise.

Trick:

1. Casting a spell out of a knowstone is a feature of the item, not the character's spellcasting. Abuse magic device outlines that you can emulating expending the use of a class feature as well as having one. In this case that class feature is a spell slot. So you can now cast substitute domain and polymorph at will.

Uh. No. At least, that is not a given with the RAW.

Spell Slots are not class features; Spells or Spellcasting is the name of the class feature.

Casting a spell using a Knowstone is explicitly using your own spellcasting ability. "A knowstone provides it bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he [sic] can then use his spell slots to cast normally."

You can emulate having Spellcasting as a class feature, sure. This lets you add a spell from a Knowstone to your virtual 'known spells list' for whatever class you emulated. Your Emulate Class Feature is done. You don't actually have the required spell slots of that class in order to cast the spell and Emulate Class Feature only lets you activate a magic item, it doesn't fuel it. The spell isn't added to your Beguiler or Dread Necro's Class list. You _certainly_ don't get to cast the spell at will.

The interpretation that the knowstone adds the spell to your Beguiler spell list is ambiguous at best, and not the common interpretation in my experience.

If you had a staff, you could (possibly) combine the knowstone and the staff to use the spell from the staff. But you could just emulate the feature and use the staff.

3. substitute domain to the Spell domain. Cast polymorph out of a knowstone to turn into a bear. Now your type is animal. Use the Spell domain's limited wish and the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell to cast a costless limited wish emulating awaken. Proceed to gain stupid large amounts of Cha, bonus spells, and extra undead.

Still not sure how you think you can cast a Divine Spell when you have no Divine Spell Slots to fire Substitute Domain, but you could do it via a few other ways. Which would let you use the Spell Domain to cast Polymorph (using Greater Anyspell, not a knowstone), but will ignore that problem.

You aren't a valid target for Awaken. Why? You cannot be an animal.

no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal

Any would-be animal with an Intelligence higher of 3 or higher is a Magical Beast.

Even if this did work, which it doesn't and is clearly TO brokeness, there are 2 other possible interpretations. First you would re-write your intelligence score in the process. This is, debatably, a new sentience which is now an NPC. (Alternatively, whatever your new int is, you may have just lost language skills, skill point, etc.) Or, the Polymorph's 'you retain your mental attributes' trumps the changes Awaken would provide and you revert at the end of the Polymorph. (There is also the interpretation you are now permanently a Magical Beast without Natural Spell. Good luck.)

[Brova]

You are playing different games from what I end up playing.

My experience is 'Core, Completes, Races of, MIC, SpC, and +((1d4)d6) books.'

The experience of people on D&D boards is not generally typical. In any case, the fixed list casters also benefit from additional books, mostly because of Rainbow Servant and substitute domain.

Charm Person is great until you get Mind Affecting Immunity on everyone or non-humanoid opponents, which is pretty typical. Charm Monster comes online just about the time that immunity is common.

I don't understand why people say this. charm person turns defeated enemies into allies. Allies you can then use to defeat monsters with immunity to charm person. And no, immunity does not become common when charm monster comes online. At 8th about ten out of thirty creatures are immune. At 18th it's two out of eight.

However, a single PrC cannot save any class. There are characters that will not qualify for Rainbow Servant -- like most Dread Necromancers (to get both, you have to be Lawful Neutral or True Neutral). Buying a scroll isn't a solution -- Use Magic Device isn't a real solution as it isn't on your class skill list. And anything that involves Leadership is a Poor Game Design issue.

Actually, this is shifting goal posts.

Your comment about not optimizing enough to use Planar Binding is both an ad hominem attack and a non sequitor. As such, I'll ignore it.

What? My point is that in games where the DM is going to stop you from using Rainbow Servant or scrolls or paying for spells or whatever, he probably wouldn't have let you use planar binding to summon up a horde of demons anyway.

Without Magic Circle or Dimensional Anchor (or similar), what is to stop you Planar Bound creature from JUST LEAVING? Nothing.

The fact that it's dead?

Get Immunity to Death Effects and Negative Energy, and the DN has severe issues.

No, because in addition to spells, he gets bound devils and undead minions. Seriously, you're evaluating the Dread Necromancer as if animate dead didn't exist. Given that undead minions are probably the number one reason people become Necromancers, Dread or otherwise, that's deeply dubious.

Some kind of feat to gain divine spellcasting ... which feat are you talking?

Southern Magician, probably. You could always dip Cleric if you wanted to.

*knowstones*

Go read the PHB section on "Emulate A Class Feature" the given example is emulating the expenditure of a turn attempt

Any would-be animal with an Intelligence higher of 3 or higher is a Magical Beast.

Ah, but that's not clear. There's just a restriction, that generally you cannot be an animal with Int >2. polymorph has a specific allowance that you become an Animal, with no provision for Int score.

[Curmudgeon]

Let's assume you're a Halfling. You're looking at 20 Dex, a size bonus, a racial bonus with thrown weapons, and the Point Blank Shot bonus.

So you're claiming that spending 16 of your 25 point buy on DEX is going to make for a viable character?

I don't think ignoring STR (carrying capacity), WIS (perception skills, Will saves), INT (skill points, Search, Disable Device), CHA (Bluff, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device), and CON (HP, Fortitude saves) is a good plan. Carrying splash weapons in your clothing means you don't get to offset any weight with a Heward's Handy Haversack, and 6 STR means you can only tote 6 splash weapons before being encumbered — and that assumes you carry nothing else. With a WIS penalty you may fail your Spot check to even see your enemy. And of course you're going to be useless or dead from the first enemy who casts any spell with a Fortitude or Will save.

[Troacctid]

Incarnate: What soulmelds are you using? The idea of melee-ing with simple weapons, medium armor, d6 hit points, and poor BAB doesn't seem good.

Dissolving Spittle and Lightning Gauntlets are touch attacks that can hit for 3d6 damage at 1st level. Astral Vambraces make you untouchable against low-level enemies with up to DR 6/magic, again at 1st level, although even the base DR 2/magic is pretty overpowered against dinky little kobolds.

The experience of people on D&D boards is not generally typical. In any case, the fixed list casters also benefit from additional books, mostly because of Rainbow Servant and substitute domain.

Man, you need to stop bringing up the Rainbow Servant and Substitute Domain tricks like they're things that DMs will allow. Rainbow Servant has multiple dysfunctions that will screw you over if the DM makes any ruling other than the most generously optimistic one, and Substitute Domain doesn't work at all for Beguilers unless you fudge it with a house rule.

[Brova]

So you're claiming that spending 16 of your 25 point buy on DEX is going to make for a viable character?

I don't think ignoring STR (carrying capacity), WIS (perception skills, Will saves), INT (skill points, Search, Disable Device), CHA (Bluff, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device), and CON (HP, Fortitude saves) is a good plan.

It's situational, depending on both how high level you start (higher levels need the marginal +1 or +2 from Dex less) and how generous stats are. If it's specifically 25 point buy starting from 1st, I'd probably go with 17/14/12/10/8/8. Dumping mental stats isn't awful, as you're missing a 5% chance on a roll that is generally going to be off the RNG in one direction or the other.

Man, you need to stop bringing up the Rainbow Servant and Substitute Domain tricks like they're things that DMs will allow. Rainbow Servant has multiple dysfunctions that will screw you over if the DM makes any ruling other than the most generously optimistic one, and Substitute Domain doesn't work at all for Beguilers unless you fudge it with a house rule.

The baseline Rainbow Servant plan is 100% legal and is going to be good enough in almost every game. It is possible that the DM will make some counter-ruling, but he could do that about anything. Is color spray bad because the DM could rule that people get an extra save each round?

As far as substitute domain, the RAW is actually very clearly in favor of the trick. It's just that the people writing the spell never considered what might happen if anyone who wasn't a Cleric cast it.

[Troacctid]

The baseline Rainbow Servant plan is 100% legal and is going to be good enough in almost every game. It is possible that the DM will make some counter-ruling, but he could do that about anything. Is color spray bad because the DM could rule that people get an extra save each round?

As far as substitute domain, the RAW is actually very clearly in favor of the trick. It's just that the people writing the spell never considered what might happen if anyone who wasn't a Cleric cast it.

The Rainbow Servant capstone doesn't add any spells to your spells known, and the Beguiler's only mechanism to learn them is via Advanced Learning, or possibly by leveling up and gaining access to a new level of spells (it's ambiguous on the latter). In order for it to be good, your DM has to be willing to rule against the RAW and say its spells are added to your class spell list, but also not rule against the RAW and say that spellcasting advancement works as indicated by the table rather than the text, and rule that you still get spells known from Rainbow Servant levels even though the text only says you get spells per day. That's like multiple rulings that have to go in your favor, and they're not even consistent with each other. And this is just interpreting the text--the only houserules would be ones in your favor, not ones to screw you over.

As for Substitute Domain, the RAW is that you have to prepare the spells, so it's not useful for a spontaneous caster unless you take Arcane Preparation. And even then, you're only getting the domains from one deity, which is a lot of effort for a not-so-impressive payoff.

[Sagetim]

*snip*

You aren't a valid target for Awaken. Why? You cannot be an animal.

Any would-be animal with an Intelligence higher of 3 or higher is a Magical Beast.

Even if this did work, which it doesn't and is clearly TO brokeness, there are 2 other possible interpretations. First you would re-write your intelligence score in the process. This is, debatably, a new sentience which is now an NPC. (Alternatively, whatever your new int is, you may have just lost language skills, skill point, etc.) Or, the Polymorph's 'you retain your mental attributes' trumps the changes Awaken would provide and you revert at the end of the Polymorph. (There is also the interpretation you are now permanently a Magical Beast without Natural Spell. Good luck.)

You would need to be a subsentient (int 1 or 2) animal to be a viable target for awaken. And while you could maybe argue that having int damage or drain down to that point would allow you to qualify for awaken, you sure as hell aren't casting any spells at that low intelligence. And even if you get someone to cast awaken on you while you have that much damage, there's no reason to assume that the new sentience wouldn't overright the personality that used to be there (thus zapping away class levels, personality, etc).

Even if you did get awaken cast on you without destorying who you are, you are rolling 3d6 for your int score. This could turn out Really badly for you. Additionally, you're getting 2 animal hit dice. Those things suck. The minor bump to your charisma is not worth the other effects of Awaken on a player character. Even if you get yourself killed and raise dead'd twice to erase the animal hit dice, you're stuck with the new, random intelligence score.

[ekarney]

I'd put any class form Tome of Battle in the underutilized category. However, that is mainly due to DMs who gladly allow Wizards, Clerics, Druids and other Tier 1 classes in the game but scream 'BROKEN' when someone tries to introduce a moderately powerful martial character into the same game. Whenever I see someone posting a question about how to make their non-caster build better someone eventually suggests something from ToB and the reply is always that it is a prohibited book.

Without going into ToB, how about Factotum/Chameleon? That is a fun combo to see played, as we've had several version of that in our games. Done right it can take Factotum from Tier 3 into a solid Tier 2, IMHO.

I don't allow ToB classes simply because I'm not fully familiar with them, what I have done however is allowed my players to choose from my own homebrew of suped martial classes as an alternative.

I think the only I ban because of brokenness is StP Erudite.

Factotum/Charmeleon looks really interesting I might run that in the next game I play in.

I can't speak for their tiers since I've never played them, but the Death Master looks quite nice as a direct upgrade from the Dread Necromancer.

Mountebank (Base class) is definitely fun looking, as is the Sohei.

[torrasque666]

The Rainbow Servant capstone doesn't add any spells to your spells known, and the Beguiler's only mechanism to learn them is via Advanced Learning, or possibly by leveling up and gaining access to a new level of spells (it's ambiguous on the latter). In order for it to be good, your DM has to be willing to rule against the RAW and say its spells are added to your class spell list, but also not rule against the RAW and say that spellcasting advancement works as indicated by the table rather than the text, and rule that you still get spells known from Rainbow Servant levels even though the text only says you get spells per day. That's like multiple rulings that have to go in your favor, and they're not even consistent with each other. And this is just interpreting the text--the only houserules would be ones in your favor, not ones to screw you over.

I.... I'm now debating whether or not to make this apparent to the guy in my group who always goes Beguiler-Rainbow Servant because we're always against undead and the group has put a soft ban on minionmancy(by way of "oh **** the hell no. rounds already take forever. no.") and my DM who never really..... reads our class features.... he just relies on me to do it...

[Kantolin]

I wouldn't say they're underrepresented per se, as there are generally stronger options available, but some of the most fun I've had was with a hexblade, shadowcaster, lurk, and my spirit shaman.

All four, despite their flaws, have very fun mechanics to utilize.

For more properly underrepresented, however, I'd have to go with psions and psychic warriors. I know a ton of people who would really like their mechanics, but simply cannot be bothered to look at psionics, heh.

[Nifft]

For more properly underrepresented, however, I'd have to go with psions and psychic warriors. I know a ton of people who would really like their mechanics, but simply cannot be bothered to look at psionics, heh.

I've had great fun playing a Psion, and I feel like it's pretty decently balanced in 3.5e, but they seem to make some DMs nervous in ways that Druids and Wizards don't.

[Troacctid]

I think Psychic Rogues are definitely underrepresented too. They match up pretty well against the standard Rogue. Having access to psionics is a pretty big deal, and well worth losing a bit of sneak attack, IMO.

[Brova]

The Rainbow Servant capstone doesn't add any spells to your spells known, and the Beguiler's only mechanism to learn them is via Advanced Learning, or possibly by leveling up and gaining access to a new level of spells (it's ambiguous on the latter).

No. The FAQ unambiguously rules that Warmages (who have the exact same learning mechanism) get all Cleric spells from the Rainbow Servant capstone. Here's the quote:

If a warmage (CAr 10) gains access to all the cleric spells though the rainbow servant prestige class (CD 54), does he really have all those spells to choose from each time he casts a spell?

If a warmage takes ten levels of rainbow servant, he adds all of the spells from the cleric spell list to his own spell list and can choose from all of them when he casts spells.

So can you please stop making this argument? It's not only a bad argument, it's one that has been unambiguously ruled on.

also not rule against the RAW and say that spellcasting advancement works as indicated by the table rather than the text,

The DM has to not rule against RAW for every single build.

and rule that you still get spells known from Rainbow Servant levels even though the text only says you get spells per day.

Actually, no he doesn't. The Beguiler indicates that:

When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list.

So it doesn't particularly matter whether you learn the spells or not.

As for Substitute Domain, the RAW is that you have to prepare the spells, so it's not useful for a spontaneous caster unless you take Arcane Preparation. And even then, you're only getting the domains from one deity, which is a lot of effort for a not-so-impressive payoff.

First, it indicates that you:

You gain the granted power of the new domain, as well as access to any of its spells that you can cast—though you must still prepare the spells normally.

Now, by strict RAW that arguably doesn't do anything, depending on whether "can cast" refers to right now or in general. Anyway, that says you must still "prepare the spells normally". If you don't prepare spells, you normally prepare them by not preparing them. So you continue not preparing them.

As far as the single god thing, there's no listed penalty for switching gods. Even if the DM houserules something, you can get a pretty good selection from Mystra or another a god with domains with save or dies.

I.... I'm now debating whether or not to make this apparent to the guy in my group who always goes Beguiler-Rainbow Servant because we're always against undead and the group has put a soft ban on minionmancy(by way of "oh **** the hell no. rounds already take forever. no.") and my DM who never really..... reads our class features.... he just relies on me to do it...

Please don't. It's not actually true, so it's just being a prick.

You would need to be a subsentient (int 1 or 2) animal to be a viable target for awaken.

No you don't. awaken specifically targets "a tree or animal". Doesn't have to be unintelligent.

[Troacctid]

You're quoting the FAQ, which is well known for going against the RAW in a lot of places. In this case, what the FAQ says contradicts what the text says, and the text takes precedence in that conflict. Doesn't the Sage also say you should follow the progression in the table rather than giving it 10/10 casting? I'd think you'd be crossing your fingers hoping the DM doesn't put stock in the FAQ.

[Gabrosin]

I wouldn't say they're underrepresented per se, as there are generally stronger options available, but some of the most fun I've had was with a hexblade, shadowcaster, lurk, and my spirit shaman.

All four, despite their flaws, have very fun mechanics to utilize.

For more properly underrepresented, however, I'd have to go with psions and psychic warriors. I know a ton of people who would really like their mechanics, but simply cannot be bothered to look at psionics, heh.

This is us. Most of our group has a hard enough time adapting to Tome of Battle; we stay away from anything Tome of Magic or Psionics to avoid further complication. It hasn't been a problem.