General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour

[Lethologica]

I'm keeping up with OPM, it's okay. They did more with the premise than I expected the first time I saw the manga popping up. There's still a lot of time it feels like One Joke Man, though.

[Arbane]

There's still a lot of time it feels like One Joke Man, though.

Now that Saitama's got a supporting cast that aren't as overpowered as he is, it keeps it from getting stale. Someone over on RPGnet came up with a good description of it:

Yeah. To put it another way, Saitama's epic shonen story arc is about developing into a true hero from the other end. That is, not 'I need to train until my power levels are over nine thousand so I can beat the guy who wants to eat the sun!', but "I need to learn how to manage PR and not alienate my colleagues and friends who I technically outclass" and "I need to demonstrate my worth well enough so I can become an S-class superhero".

Instead of ever-more-increasing power, it's all about increasing his Association rankings, making friends, and being less of a ****.

[Fri]

Mumen Rider ;_;

Also, it's amazes me that eventhough he's the most overpowered being in the setting, and he basically nothing can challenge him, we can still point Saitama is unquestionably heroic.

I can't really explain it well. Basically, you'd think that if nothing can challenge someone, it'd be hard to say that person is heroic. But not saitama. Eventhough his motivation is basically he want to have a good fight, he's also heroic to the core.

Also strangely, I just realized.

It's a common trope lately for some reason, a fantasy story where the mc is already the strongest character and/or at the highest level ever and nothing can reasonably challenge him. Example that I can think out of the top of my head, Log Horizon, Overlord, Mahouka, SAO after first arc, countless lightnovel-based manga (seriously, there's like a billion of those). Most of them kinda annoy me, but OPM is one example that doesn't.

[Ibrinar]

Log Horizon? The MC is hardly the strongest in personal power iirc?

[Fri]

Log Horizon? The MC is hardly the strongest in personal power iirc?

But he's still at max level and one of the strongest players already, and the story isn't about him trying to level up to get better power, so I place it in the same group.

[Ibrinar]

But he's still at max level and one of the strongest players already, and the story isn't about him trying to level up to get better power, so I place it in the same group.

Ah true. Though I think that is an important difference I like stories where the MC is already formidable but there are others on a similiar level, but stories where the MC just outclasses everyone by far have to be handled a bit differently. (Either by it being comedy, by the MC having a weakness, by it being possible to challenge the MC with group tactics and people doing so, by it not really being about fighting etc. )

[JCarter426]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I have a lot to think about.

Cowboy Bebop was in fact my first anime. While it clearly worked on me, it's not very typical of anime so I've been hesitant in naming that one. Also, yes, there are some people who don't like Cowboy Bebop. It happens.

I have recommended Fullmetal Alchemist to him before (before he went on his anti-anime crusade) because it's quite similar to Avatar, but I ruled it out for this case due to its length. Also, and more especially with Brotherhood, it has a lot of those chibi comedy moments that I think he'd complain about, even though Avatar did the same thing.

Spice & Wolf is also one I recommend a lot, but not as a first anime. Once you get past the naked wolf girl, it's about romance and medieval. You really can't predict what impression that will have on anyone.

I'm not sure about Baccano! either. A lot of the characters are love them or hate them types, and the order of the narrative could be confusing for someone not paying attention.

Last Exile is one I had considered, but again it's not typical of most anime so I'm not sure.

I'd rather recommend TV than a film, firstly because I prefer TV and therefore have a wider pool to draw from, but also because therefilms anyway. He already agreed to watching a full series, and if it turns out he can't deal with it, then he deserves to be tortured a bit.

A lot of the other recommendations were great, and I'm still considering them in terms of their length and content, and his preferences. Unfortunately there are also a couple I myself have not seen, because I'm a very busy person when I'm not being a very lazy person (and sometimes when I am). But I wouldn't be opposed to dusting off my own list to widen the pool.

And yeah, I know Haruhi uses anime tropes too, but most of the time they're used for parody. So even though it calls moe by name, I'd consider it a more appropriate recommendation for the initiated than K-On!, for example, even though I am a fan of both. I was hoping if he saw them in that sort of environment he'd find them less off-putting. And I'm not trying to hide them things from him, either. I don't want to trick him into thinking anime is something that it isn't, because would leave him with an impression that isn't much better than the one he has now.

However:

Haruhi is a really great gateway show for people who /want/ to like anime. If your friend is going in wanting to hate anime, Haruhi is not going to change his mind.

This has been my concern exactly. Otherwise it would be a done deal. You like aliens and time travel and psychic powers, and you're looking for anime? Well, here you go. But it's not that simple.

If you could imagine his open-mindedness as a spectrum, Haruhi would be at one end, and at the other end would be anything that would at least make him realize that anime isn't whatever the hell he thinks it is. The first end is more ideal, more likely to leave a good impression on the open-minded, but it heavily depends on their willing participation. The problem is I can't read his mindset. So far he has acted... not open-minded, while claiming to be otherwise. So I'm not sure how far into the other end I have to dip.

What I may do is give him a variety of options, and then insist that he at least complete the one he prefers or despises the least. Or maybe give him two very different ones to complete. I'll have to confer with him before I proceed any further.

[DoctorFaust]

Actually, I've just had another thought, dependent on why exactly your friend doesn't like anime. Because I was very much in the mindset that almost all anime was moe**** back when I really hadn't really watched anything but Miyazaki movies, and watching Fate/Zero on the recommendation of a friend quickly disabused me of this notion.

[everdeenkatniss]

I got a decent chunk of the way through. I forget why I stopped but I don't remember thinking it was awful. It seemed very slow from what I remember and had a bit too much of it explaining everything at times. I'll probably finish it at some point.

[Alent]

Last Exile is one I had considered, but again it's not typical of most anime so I'm not sure.

I'd rather recommend TV than a film, firstly because I prefer TV and therefore have a wider pool to draw from, but also because therefilms anyway. He already agreed to watching a full series, and if it turns out he can't deal with it, then he deserves to be tortured a bit.

Yeah, I'd never recommend Last Exile as a gateway drug unless you're evil about it and cliffhanger your friend at a point he likes because "I don't have the rest of it" or something. Last Exile had a point near the 3/4 mark where the entire story melted down and became a textbook case of how not to write. Right up until that point? Absolutely brilliant. Past that point? It's all creepy flowers and mind control because the author was trying way too hard to be different.

In fact, too many anime that make it to their second cours crash and burn as a story somewhere in their second cour. It always seems to hit the promising ones the worst- My watched shows list is full of shows like Guilty Crown and Aldnoah Zero that I want to recommend, but can't because their endings were terrible.

Hmm... that made realize I missed a great recommendation- Hataraku Maou-sama! The story is solid, it doesn't have an end of season derail, the cast is good, the humor is amazing. It needs a second season badly.

Guin Saga might also make for an interesting watch depending on your friend's tastes. The world feels like it's pulled straight out of a Conan novel, the art style is a bit of an 80's throwback homage even though it wasn't produced that many years ago. One of my friends wasn't into Anime at the time, but loved Conan movies, saw me watching the show and started following it and raved about it for months.

Has nobody mentioned Trigun yet?

[mallorean_thug]

I'm really enjoying OPM for the action cuts. And its one joke is pretty funny. The rest of the show is kind of eh, if only because "What does it mean to be a hero?" is feeling terribly played out at the moment, and OPM's specific spin on that hasn't really caught me.

That said, the action cuts make it well worth it, and anybody who isn't watching it really should.

Other current stuff:

Owarimonogatari: Sodachi Lost and Sodachi Riddle were both really good, up there with the best parts of Second Season. Shinobu Mail has been . . . just as uninteresting as Shinobu Time was and kind of disappointing. It was just announced that Koyomimonogatari is going to be airing as an ONA during Winter Season though, so it looks like the -monogatari train is going to keep chugging along until it hits the end of the tracks. I'm looking forward to it. I'm just sad that Aniplex isn't airing Kizu Part 1 in any US theaters. The wait for the BR release is going to be agonizing.

Gundam IBO: The first couple episodes were good, but I actually haven't been following this week to week and need to catch up. Worth it?

Osomatsu-san: It's been very hit or miss, with the first couple episodes being a lot of miss. Thankfully, it seems to have gotten more on target with the last couple episodes being solid hits. And the great colors, layouts, and faces have kept me going through the misses. It was actually announced mid-season that this is going to be a 2-cour show, so I'm looking forward to it carrying into Winter Season, which from a cursory glance looks pretty sparse.

The Perfect Insider: I'm pretty mixed on this one. Parts of it are great, I think the characters all work very well, and the character designs and direction both suit the show perfectly. But its muted colors, muted pacing, and not terribly mysterious main mystery (somebody here called it after ep3, as did I. It really feels like the entire story was written backwards from that "twist") haven't really made me feel very engaged, and I'd be hesitant to actually recommend it to anybody.

Noragami S2: I liked the first arc, but this second arc hasn't been quite up to par AND it feels like its going to end without actually addressing the mysteries its brought up. Meh.

Haikyu S2: Yachi was a great addition to the cast, and I really liked the episode focusing on her. Besides that, it feels like individual episodes are a little stronger than S1, but the overall structure is way less exciting. Like, training arcs are a thing, but we haven't had a single serious game yet. Fortunately, this is also continuing into Winter, so I'm sure I'll get my wishes then.


Oh, and if anybody else wanted to take a crack at giving me some recs as per Post 358, I'd really appreciate it.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Y'know, I keep really wanting for OPM to randomly cross over with Samurai Flamenco because that would be amazing.

[Sith_Happens]

Has nobody mentioned Trigun yet?

Ooh, that's a good one too. To mix things up a little though I'm going to suggest starting with the movie (Badlands Rumble) which is really good. Sure it takes place chronologically most of the way through the series, but it's set up in a way that you can still totally watch it as your first Trigun experience and know what's going on, and it doesn't even spoil anything either.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ooh, that's a good one too. To mix things up a little though I'm going to suggest starting with the movie (Badlands Rumble) which is really good. Sure it takes place chronologically most of the way through the series, but it's set up in a way that you can still totally watch it as your first Trigun experience and know what's going on, and it doesn't even spoil anything either.

Well, technically it does reveal Wolfwood as a main character (and a non-antagonist), but that's a small thing only.

[JCarter426]

Actually, I've just had another thought, dependent on why exactly your friend doesn't like anime. Because I was very much in the mindset that almost all anime was moe**** back when I really hadn't really watched anything but Miyazaki movies, and watching Fate/Zero on the recommendation of a friend quickly disabused me of this notion.

He knows about moe, but finding an anime with relatively little moe (or parodying it, as in Haruhi) isn't a problem. The problem is that frankly, he seems to be under the impression that all anime is both shounen and shoujo at the same time. I have no idea where he got that idea. Although, it kind makes me want to watch one that is.

But regarding Fate, I suppose that's not a bad choice... the only thing is I'm not sure about starting with Fate/Zero. I don't want to get into the whole Fate order debate, but that's not how I watched it, so I couldn't in good conscience suggest that order, because I really don't know if it would work. I started with the Fate/Stay Night anime, and I can't in good conscience recommend that either, so...

Yeah, I'd never recommend Last Exile as a gateway drug unless you're evil about it and cliffhanger your friend at a point he likes because "I don't have the rest of it" or something. Last Exile had a point near the 3/4 mark where the entire story melted down and became a textbook case of how not to write. Right up until that point? Absolutely brilliant. Past that point? It's all creepy flowers and mind control because the author was trying way too hard to be different.

Well, I liked it. I liked the world a lot more than the plot, though.

I've decided to give him a list based on all these suggestions and let him choose, and also let him decide if he's open-minded enough. I hope to be back with an update soon.

And in other news, I really envy you people watching One Punch Man. I had been looking forward to it, but then I was too busy to start it and haven't watched a second of it yet. Bah.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

But regarding Fate, I suppose that's not a bad choice... the only thing is I'm not sure about starting with Fate/Zero. I don't want to get into the whole Fate order debate, but that's not how I watched it, so I couldn't in good conscience suggest that order, because I really don't know if it would work. I started with the Fate/Stay Night anime, and I can't in good conscience recommend that either, so...

You could always try Machete-style: watch season 1 of the Unlimited Blade Works adaptation, then watch Fate/Zero now that you have the background of the mage families and the allusions to the prior Grail War, and finish with season 2 of UBW to close out the story.

Steins;Gate talks plenty about anime character tropes and such, but actually steers away from the visual tropes. It also seems to avoid both shounen and shoujo, depending on your friend's definition as such; it's a conspiracy thriller with slices of weirdness and otaku culture. And time travel. Visually, it's really grounded, and would be a good candidate for an intro-to-anime show.

[JCarter426]

Eh, Unlimited Blade Works without the Fate route? Really, even if it's wrong, I would have to recommend what I did: Fate/Stay Night anime, Fate/Zero, Unlimited Blade Works... or just the visual novel, which I'm in the middle of at the moment. But the problem is the original Fate/Stay Night anime has issues.

And yeah, Steins;Gate is on my list. It's one I've mentioned to him before, and it's not too long, so I'm bringing it up again.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, technically it does reveal Wolfwood as a main character (and a non-antagonist), but that's a small thing only.

It's easy to forget that part of the early episodes is the question of is he really that good?

Eh, Unlimited Blade Works without the Fate route? Really, even if it's wrong, I would have to recommend what I did: Fate/Stay Night anime, Fate/Zero, Unlimited Blade Works... or just the visual novel, which I'm in the middle of at the moment. But the problem is the original Fate/Stay Night anime has issues.

Just watch UBW. It'll be better than sitting through any iteration of the Fate route.

[Eldariel]

Eh, Unlimited Blade Works without the Fate route? Really, even if it's wrong, I would have to recommend what I did: Fate/Stay Night anime, Fate/Zero, Unlimited Blade Works... or just the visual novel, which I'm in the middle of at the moment. But the problem is the original Fate/Stay Night anime has issues.

Unlimited Blade Works anime explains things well enough, I find. Watching it as a standalone should be feasible. Hell, all the ridiculously long expositions are probably fairly fresh for someone new to the merchandise and it might actually work better as the first experience of the whole. I'd probably watch UBW > FZ myself at this point and just play VN if I wanted the whole story; the original anime is just kind of a mess and poorly spoils some things that would occur in the superior products but done in a better way (I count both the VN and the UBW anime as superior products here).

[Lethologica]

I would anti-recommend Steins;Gate and original FSN for Annoying Anime Things (TM). Also, it's fine to say Haruhi parodies Annoying Anime Things (TM), but that's like recommending One Punch Man to someone who hates action shounen; in order to parody, you kinda have to do it a lot yourself.

[Prime32]

Also strangely, I just realized.

It's a common trope lately for some reason, a fantasy story where the mc is already the strongest character and/or at the highest level ever and nothing can reasonably challenge him. Example that I can think out of the top of my head, Log Horizon, Overlord, Mahouka, SAO after first arc, countless lightnovel-based manga (seriously, there's like a billion of those). Most of them kinda annoy me, but OPM is one example that doesn't.

Wasn't there was some anime where the writer talked about how the protagonist was going to start weak and grow in power over time, and was told "What you're describing is a shojo anime. Shonen audiences don't want to wait around for the protagonist to get powerful any more, they want them to be like that from the beginning"?

[ex cathedra]

Oh, and if anybody else wanted to take a crack at giving me some recs as per Post 358, I'd really appreciate it.

i considered it, but your completed list essentially doubles my own
furthermore, the vast majority of things i've liked that you haven't seen are slice-of-life, and most are reasonably episodic.

that said, have you ever considered watching hanasaku iroha? it's a great coming-of-age drama, but it also seems entirely unlike the shows you've been watching thusfar.

[Mx.Silver]

I was actually considering Erin! I'm just always wary of trying to watch long shows with groups of people. But 50 episodes really isn't that bad. Probably my top consideration at the moment.

Michiko and Hatchin was something I actually suggested right after we finished Samurai Champloo with a somewhat facetious "Hey, do you guys want to watch that show again, but in South America this time?" The answer was "Something less episodic, please" So, maybe we'll get around to that a little bit later, but probably not next.

Blast of Tempest isn't really my kind of show, but given my friends' tastes, probably is a good suggestion. I'll keep it in mind.

And I had completely forgotten about Kurozuka again. Thanks for reminding me. I might be greedy and just watch that one by myself real quick.

I can't really blame you, as it's not exactly well-known. My Anime List doesn't even have a complete cast list, despite the voice cast being comprised mainly of reasonably established names.
Not really the most accessible of works, even before you get into the 'heavy references to things non-Japanese audiences are not going to know about' side of things (I only found out it was drawing from the Noh play it shares its name with when I happened to watch a youtube review of Throne of Blood that brought-up the play in question).

Its always good to see you around. And don't worry, its not like I've been posting around here either! Not because I've been posting elsewhere, just more that I've found online discussion about my interests to be less and less fun, and just doing my interests more fun.

I've been in a similar boat, to be honest (albeit one prompted by other factors).
Although this time around I've found myself stuck a slump of essentially spite watching a series, and not a particularly short one either, which has rather exacerbated the general disappointing side of the 'things I've been viewing'. I may post something about it once I've dragged myself through to the end of it.

I should probably just throw up a list of stuff I've seen. Might also mention some of the bad ones I ran into as well if there's something worth talking about in them.

[Arbane]

As for anime recommendations - someone suggested Miyazaki movies, and while that's a good recommendation in general, I'd suggest Castle of Cagliostro, specifically. It's an oldie but a goodie.

[Alent]

He knows about moe, but finding an anime with relatively little moe (or parodying it, as in Haruhi) isn't a problem. The problem is that frankly, he seems to be under the impression that all anime is both shounen and shoujo at the same time. I have no idea where he got that idea. Although, it kind makes me want to watch one that is.

You know, this suddenly makes me wonder if he saw and hated Sailor moon back in the day, then someone sales pitched Fushigi Yuugi to him, and he didn't like it, either, and he just decided those two series spoke for all of anime?

On this note, I would be very surprised if he enjoyed Steins;Gate. I found that one to be very polarizing amongst my friends, and the ones who didn't enjoy it tend to be more strongly opinionated people in general.

Actually, a lot of those people really liked Claymore. Maybe include that one?

Well, I liked it. I liked the world a lot more than the plot, though.

Don't misunderstand, I liked it, too. The world was phenomenal, the concept was pretty creative, the main characters had a good dynamic, everything was going amazingly... Then Dio's sister showed up. It was still a good show, but I would expect someone who wanted to not like an anime to get bent out of shape over what she did to Dio and Lucciola.

On this note, have you seen The Recollections of a Certain Pilot (toaru Hikuushi e no tsuioku)? (the movie, not the TV series adapted off a different book from the same series.) It seems to draw some heavy inspiration from Last Exile, and is a really nice story in general.

[ImperatorV]

Regarding the Fate discussion: I actually watched Fate/Zero before anything else, and after having some more experience with the series I wouldn't have had it another way. Plus, Fate/Zero has rider. That alone warrants a recommendation. Whether it's the best intro series I have no idea.

[JCarter426]

You know, this suddenly makes me wonder if he saw and hated Sailor moon back in the day, then someone sales pitched Fushigi Yuugi to him, and he didn't like it, either, and he just decided those two series spoke for all of anime?

Well, I know he hasn't watched Sailor Moon, and to my knowledge he has never seen any anime apart from a few clips a few clips I showed him that were taken completely out of context. Apart from me he knows a few people who he says are into anime, but as far as I can tell what they watch is limited to the really mainstream stuff that's well known outside of Japan. This led me to say on one occasion "I'm not really sure if she actually watches anime. No wonder you have no idea what it is either."

On this note, have you seen The Recollections of a Certain Pilot (toaru Hikuushi e no tsuioku)? (the movie, not the TV series adapted off a different book from the same series.) It seems to draw some heavy inspiration from Last Exile, and is a really nice story in general.

I haven't. I'll have to check it out.

And regarding Fate... I just realized that, assuming my friend does not renounce anime forever, that's probably a series he'd enjoy too, so I am going to have to figure out the proper order. But I'm leaving them off the list for now.

[Sith_Happens]

Madoka concept movie with subtitles (turn on closed captioning).

[hype intensifies]

[Closet_Skeleton]

But he's still at max level and one of the strongest players already, and the story isn't about him trying to level up to get better power, so I place it in the same group.

He's not actually max level since there was an expansion, he's just not interested in all the extreme grinding he'd need to get stronger.

But then they added all those weaker characters who are concerned with levelling up.

Gundam IBO: The first couple episodes were good, but I actually haven't been following this week to week and need to catch up. Worth it?

If you like Gundam, the quality hasn't dropped and its got more involving the more we've found out about what's actually going on.

If you don't like Gundam, its too Gundam to convince you to like Gundam.

Last Exile had a point near the 3/4 mark where the entire story melted down and became a textbook case of how not to write. Right up until that point? Absolutely brilliant. Past that point? It's all creepy flowers and mind control because the author was trying way too hard to be different.

Can't really agree. Last Exile's ending is fine and thematically concludes the themes that were brought up earlier. A ton of bad stuff happening to the good guys at the beginning of the last act in a setting that was full of power imbalances and nasty stuff going on in the background is just normal writing.

Brainwashing one of the heroes into a villain is a cliche, its not the author trying to be different and it only happens to one character in a situation that makes sense. Dio never wanting to go near his Sister ever again had been set up as the key point of his character throughout his appearances in the show, not having that pay off would have been terrible writing.

Its not a tour de force of good writing either, but if you want to claim it committed any irredeemable narrative sins then the rules your using are inflexible and useless.

But the problem is the original Fate/Stay Night anime has issues.

All the fate anime have issues.

Plus, Fate/Zero has rider. That alone warrants a recommendation.

On the other hand, it has everyone whose not Rider.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

On the other hand, it has everyone whose not Rider.

On the other other hand, it has Rider. Also Waver's character arc.

Blondie isn't bad either.