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2017-05-28, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Games with an actual community? Yeah, it does. Admittedly less common now, but back in the days where Everquest and Ultima Online ruled, and World of Warcraft was the hot new thing, exceptional skilled, clever, or trolly players were put on a pedestal. With VR MMOs being a new genre in all these universes, it stands to reason you'd get a similar effect. Smaller player bases, not everything has been done yet...the people to do it first or best will be remembered, at least for a while.
Hey look it's how games work. And tactics, for that matter. They don't need to be complex to be effective (and usually the opposite). He's good at directing his allies what to do, keeping an eye on the battlefield, prioritizing targets, and knowing the cooldowns on his skills and what his margin for error is...that's generally what makes you good at an MMO.
I'm not really an MMO guy any more, but the basics of how to be good at any game are the same. It's not twitch reflexes or complex plans that really make or break a match, past a certain point, it's meta knowledge. Map layout, efficient routes to take to the goal, knowing your damage output vs enemy health and vice versa, spatial awareness, etc. I played comp TF2, and those were the main aspects, and much of it applies as equally to any PvP game with slight changes based on game type (FPS, fighting, MMO, racing, whatever).
I thought Log Horizon did a pretty good job of making it clear that was Shirou's strength. He knew what he was doing and how the game worked. That's really enough.Last edited by Rynjin; 2017-05-28 at 05:28 PM.
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2017-05-28, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
You might be able to create tension without risk of death, but LH sure as heck doesn't do it in my opinion. I've only seen the first season, but what "meaningful struggles" do the characters endure?
Player killing in a game with no death penalty? Meh.
Setting up a form of government? Could have been interesting, but in the end the main character just brute forces cooperation with his overwhelming wealth that he only has because literally every single person in the universe is too stupid to try actually cooking with the cooking class (and he's not even the one who figures it out).
Deciding whether or not to help the people getting mass murdered by goblins despite there being virtually no risk to themselves? Honestly, this entire subplot just makes all of the main cast look like selfish jerks. Not to mention that the protagonist doesn't do anything for the entire plot.
Finally, we have the season finally. In this episode, Shiro foils his opponent's genius plan to ruin their commercial reputation by claiming to bring too much food for them to safely store and having it be ruined. How does he do this? What genius plan does Shiro employ to save the day?? He reveals the fact that they actually have plenty of warehouses and his opponent's plan was mindbogglingly stupid in the first place! All praise his tactical acumen!
I like a story about a "genius" tactician as much as anyone...but Shiro is only "genius" in the sense that everyone else is a complete idiot.Last edited by Anteros; 2017-05-28 at 05:30 PM.
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2017-05-28, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- The Land of Angles
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
There's a death penalty in Log Horizon's MMO - you lose XP.
Which when you become the game characters gets translated into something... worse.
SpoilerIf you die and respawn, you lose memories of your real life. There are characters who can't even remember their family any more because they've died so many times. Eventually, they'll even forget they were ever in a world other than this one.
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2017-05-28, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Nitpick: Elder Tale (the MMO in Log Horizon) is actually a plain old monitor & keyboard game. People got 'stuck' in its world via magic.
One thing I like about it is that it's pretty obvious the writer understands MMOs in a way the SAO guy didn't seem to.
It's still painful and traumatic.
You weren't even slightly interested by the combination of rules exploits and social engineering it took to pull it off?
That was was more about the strained relation between the PCs and the NPCs now that each of them is acting like real people to the others, I rather thought.
The big plot there wasn't the fish-faced guy, it was a bit of a wind-down from the big battle, and to set up the next big antagonists - a city full of other PCs run by a deeply troubled woman with immense social-fu.
I see you left out the part where Shirou managed to break the laws of the universe to save someone's life, but hey, whatevs. I surely can't convince you to like something you're putting so much effort into hating.Last edited by Arbane; 2017-05-28 at 07:51 PM.
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2017-05-28, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Brings back memories of WoW for me. I was "lucky" enough to randomly roll Horde on the same server as Elitist Jerks, a.k.a. THE well-known WoW guild during Vanilla. For the most part the guild moniker was just code for "well geared, do not @#$@ with this guy".
However, there was one guy, I want to say he was the guild leader but he may have just been the main tank. He loved doing the Alterac Valley battleground, and his Warrior was the closest thing I've ever seen to an anime protagonist vs a horde of mooks in MMO PvP. It was like that scene with Kirito vs the low level gankers - you hit him, and nothing happens. It would take the concentrated firepower of all 40 people on the Horde side to bring him down, and by the time we did so his allies had a dominant position.
He was definitely as legendary as any of the MMO anime chracters I've seen.
I am rather mystified over why there's so much bitterness over SAO and Log Horizon. If you actually like SAO, you're a heretic who must be burned. If you don't like Log Horizon, you're also a heretic who must be burned.
Why do the MMO series cause such vitriol? I'm fairly sure such divides don't exist for harem show #1896543, or even for the big shows like Naruto/Bleach/One Piece.
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2017-05-28, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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2017-05-28, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2017-05-29, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2016
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
With SAO, the big thing is that the fanbase is huge is there's a certain contingent of it that just will not shut up about the series. I think that pretty much all series gets fans like that, but the problem with SAO is that the fanbase is large enough that the loudmouths form critical mass. It can get difficult to ignore them when they get going, so it means that in anime communities, you get this near-constant reminder of this series that you really didn't like. That behaviour will pretty quickly drive you to loath the series.
It doesn't help that now the "loathes SAO" camp also has hit critical mass now, which means that the SAO fanbase sees a constant stream of criticisms of SAO, which naturally gets their backs up, and they start sniping back, and it goes on and on.
Compare that to another anime that annoyed me, like Magical Girl Raising Project, and it's likely I'll never hear about that series ever again, and over time my annoyance can wane.
I can't explain why this doesn't happen with the Big 3. I've never seen any of them, so I don't know if there's anything specific in the content of SAO that draws criticism. Maybe it's because the ALO arc wasn't just bad but was outright offensive, but I'm pretty sure that I'd personally hate SAO almost as much even if I'd not subjected myself to the second arc.
Perhaps the problem is in betrayed expectations? I don't have a lot of interest in typical shonen tropes, so I never bothered with the Big 3. But the premise of SAO was really cool to me and I went into it having heard the hype and expecting it to be really good. By the time the Aincrad arc was over, I was only watching it for closure on the storyline, not because I had any interest in the series anymore. I only watched ALO because I specifically wanted closure on the Kirito/Asuna romance, which was the only thing I had any investment in left.
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2017-05-29, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
We're also explicitly told you can die dozens of times with no major problem though. The risk rings hollow when weighed against the normal consequences of death. Especially when they're just letting non players die (for real) when they don't want to act.
Is it? We're never really shown that side in any depth from a victim's point of view.
You weren't even slightly interested by the combination of rules exploits and social engineering it took to pull it off?
That was was more about the strained relation between the PCs and the NPCs now that each of them is acting like real people to the others, I rather thought.
The big plot there wasn't the fish-faced guy, it was a bit of a wind-down from the big battle, and to set up the next big antagonists - a city full of other PCs run by a deeply troubled woman with immense social-fu.
I see you left out the part where Shirou managed to break the laws of the universe to save someone's life, but hey, whatevs. I surely can't convince you to like something you're putting so much effort into hating.
For what it's worth, I didn't hate the show. I just thought it was boring. I might watch the second season if people think the action picks up.
For me, we had an orc hunter on my server who was infamous for open world pvp. He was kinda a jerk because he'd gank and camp low level players, but the guy could regularly take on whole groups of players. Everyone on the server knew him, and if you mentioned in global chat you had seen him somewhere there would be tons of alliance players coming out to fight him.
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2017-05-29, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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2017-05-29, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Yeah...but normally when you die you lose everything. In the show they can die dozens of times with barely any noticeable memory loss. It's meant to be this sinister revelation about the world, but in reality comes off as less "wow dying is a big risk!" and more "wow, dying is so trivial I can do it dozens of times!"
In the broad sense it's still a risk, but it's a rather minor one compared to the normal consequences. It certainly trivializes any individual encounter since the most they are risking is forgetting the name of their 3rd cat in grade school.
I think you could tell interesting stories with this mechanic. For example, a war-torn hero who slowly loses himself over time as a sacrifice for the people he's protecting. Log Horizon doesn't really do that though.
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2017-05-29, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
I guess most of you guys probably really hated .hack//SIGN too.
Characters that have died a lot in Log Horizon have more of a problem than having lost their memories, they're a little on the manic/insane side too. And not just because they lost their memories, but because they can't die and they want to. I wouldn't want to die in the game, even if you don't really die, it's still been implied to not be especially pleasant, and I wouldn't want to take the risk of losing memories. I have black outs in my memory in real life and it's unsettling and frustrating.
I too don't really see why death not being like real life death is a problem. Log Horizon always felt like an exercise in learning to live a decent quality of life in a world where doing so may be difficult. A lot of the people who became trapped also became layabouts, too depressed and aimless to do anything in a world where at first: food doesn't taste like anything, and you can't really innovate or create nice things. I found it interesting, as people found ways to actually live a life, and create a society in a new kind of world.
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2017-05-29, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Do people still ride in and drive cars? In the United States over 35,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in 2015 and people still drive. VR has some really good things going for it like a car and people aren't going to throw it away easily. Also people understand that the VR sets in the first series had extra equipment in them that enables them to be able to kill a person. It wasn't bad design, but the actions of a madman without proper (any?) no oversight. Not a problem with VR itself.
Member of the Giants in the Playground Forum Chapter for the Movement to Reunite Gondwana!
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2017-05-29, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Especially given that he had only three very stark and uninteresting worlds, and only four species: Shinigami, Human, Hollow and Quincy.
so its like, dude, there are lots of mythologies about the afterlife out there. like what if we got Valkyries in Bleach? or maybe draw upon something Egyptian? or Mayan or Aztec, or I dunno, Greek underworld? vary the afterlife up? At least the Bount Arc introduced something new with the Bounts themselves, got some vampires up in this.
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2017-05-29, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
You might be disappointed to learn that Kubo had nothing to do with the Bount arc; It was anime only filler.
Fullbringers were kinda neat in a derivative way. Kinda reminded me of the powers from Yu Yu Hakusho's Chapter Black arc. Then again, praising a series for drawing EVEN MORE on the series that heavily inspired it seems a bad thing to encourage.
But it really wasn't a lack of species that mattered. The aforementioned Yu Yu Hakusho only had three (Humans, Demons, and Spirits) with the latter factoring in basically not at all in the majority of the series.
It's what you DO with what you create that matters, not how much of it. Refer back to the part where Kubo drew a dozen new characters every time he got stuck trying to come up with a plot, and then tried to jam a plot in around them with barely a thought to character or the plot making sense.
Quality is the issue, not quantity.Last edited by Rynjin; 2017-05-29 at 12:41 PM.
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2017-05-29, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
The problem with that is that they were still using software based on the same crazy dude's work. The second arc was so tightly integrated with it that said madman was able to materialize himself in the game, and even beyond that the second game had people trapped in it without their will (for which we never see the actual game suffering any consequences, mind you). There's no way that any software with "black box" type stuff would have even considered being used.
Definitely an extremely silly aspect of the series. Even if we assume VR survives, it continues to baffle me why ANY of the main characters would touch VR again for the rest of their lives, no matter how safe people say it is.
Still, there were some good stories in there we wouldn't have seen if that were the case. I think the only arc that's completely without merit is Gun Gale Online.
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2017-05-29, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
The raw code was uploaded so that any programmer would examine it, take it apart and mod it the way they wanted, no black box. The villain in the 2nd arc had in fact been using a modified version of the original code. The madman apparently managed to upload his mind into the net or it was a copy of him that didn't know it was a copy. Either way he was a ghost in the machine and was able to manifest because the other guy hadn't changed any of the commands and security codes as a good programmer would do. And they do mention that companies were closed down people sued and people lost their jobs over what happened.
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2017-05-29, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
I would agree that Log Horizon didn't need more mortal danger to be interesting. My problem with it was just that it wasn't that interesting. It had some neat ideas, but it spread them too thinly and didn't develop them in the most interesting ways it could. Explanations were quite belaboured, in particular when we get a view of how combat and tactics work in the game's systems early on, but then have a whole arc about the newbie squad learning all that stuff we already know. It would have benefited from being more compressed, I think. My takeaway from the first season was like eating junk food that was tasty enough that I'd finish the bag I'd started, but too bland to entice me to pick up another next time I'm in the shop.
Not to mention that on specific plot/character issues,
SpoilerI was put off by the focus on the newbie miko's crush on Shiroe - which would have been just tedious if it were a one-sided hero-worship thing, but actively skeeved me once Akatsuki was shown viewing her as a credible romantic rival - and before that, I felt let down that Lenessia didn't grow into an "NPC princess becomes genuine adventurer" role, but instead acted as a PR figurehead. I just want my lazy, pampered noblewomen learning how to swing a sword and stand up for themselves for real, okay?
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2017-05-29, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
That must have happened later on in the parts I didn't get to.
I agree with everything you said. In particular regards to your spoiler...
Spoiler
What is it with Japan and shoving creepy romances with underage kids into everything? I know it's an entirely different culture over there, but I still don't think these types of romances are socially accepted. It's really weird that they show up so often in their media.
So many potentially good shows rendered unwatchable by this creepy trope.Last edited by Anteros; 2017-05-29 at 03:12 PM.
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2017-05-29, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Actually the main character can solo anyone in the world where he ends up in, which is the only thing that matters. He can solo enemies without using his items, his class features, his special skills, heck, even his spellcasting. Plus in the finale he goes solo against an opponent that even he finds threatening, and he doesn't die.
It had boob-groping in episode 1 or 2, just after the transfer.
I agree that the concept is interesting, and the ways the protagonist handles some of the problems are also interesting. However, the story as a whole isn't told well. I still liked it enough that I eventually read all the light novels I could get my hands on, but that makes it enjoyable, not of high quality. If you like the economic angle, you might want to give Maoyuu Maou Yuusha a try. The premise is that the Demon King (Queen) explains the economical realities that cause the human-demon war, thus stopping the Hero who came to kill her. It has all the problems Gloating Swine mentioned though, so while it does talk about economics, it's not at the level of Spice and Wolf or anything.
Also, related to this -for some reason, there are gender-specific subgenres of light novels. One subgenre where the protagonists (and the target audience) is almost exclusively young girls, and the shared premise is basically "an average person ends up in a world of medieval stasis and casually creates an industrial and/or magical renaissance". Often they're trying to portray economical power and genius as more powerful than brawn. Too often it ends up being stuff like selling chocolate, crepes and parfumes, and coming up with a way to make a profit out of ending slavery / serfdom. So, again... not exactly well thought out and high-brow stuff, but it can be enjoyable. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few anime series based on the premise, too.
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2017-05-29, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
I would agree that Log Horizon has some pretty awful pacing, but I like some of the concepts in it enough that I'd watch a third season of it if it ever came out. It's not like I'm hurting for time to watch a show anyway.
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2017-06-02, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
I watched about 6 episodes of this and I enjoyed it. It's kinda like other game animes but they just skip over the "stuck in a game" subplot and admit it's just a guy playing a video game. I honestly enjoyed the slice of life parts about the main character's life outside of the game more than the parts about the game itself.
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2017-06-02, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
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2017-06-02, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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- On the tip of my tongue
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2017-06-04, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Re: Creators #9: DAMN YOU, MAGANE!
....Is it just me, or was she flirting with Sota?Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2017-06-04, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
If you consider emotional abuse and humiliation flirting, then sure...
I think the Alice subterfuge would have worked better if mamika had simply died in Alice's arms with less talking. I was surprised by the reversal of the second lie though. I wasn't expecting meteora to catch Sota that fast. Most stories demand they have a misunderstanding and fight a bit before it gets sorted out.
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2017-06-15, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- Under an Orange Sky
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Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Well this month's chapter of Dungeon Meshi is out, and we get some more world building for how dungeons work in this world! As well as some super neat mystery for Laius' new application of magic.
And of course the big reveal!
SpoilerKabru and his party finally meet up with Laius' party! Will the cynical swordsman who specializes in people kill the optimistic monster eater? ONLY TIME WILL TELL.
Honestly the fact that Laius is starting to take on his sister's role and ability to see ghosts/visions is really neat. I think it's a family line thing that's only unlocked when you can access magic, or in the case of Farlyn, are just that good. Wonder if this means that they'll be losing Farlyn forever?
The fact that all three parties have met up with each other sort of makes me think that Laius' party will be heading back down past the 5th floor, which I'm super stoked for!
Also, the fact that Chilchack has figured out how to navigate the moving maze that is the 5th floor is a really mundane but no less amazing feat to get considering that the entire floor is a maze of alleys and buildings. Everyone seems to be powering up and picking up neat little things, beyond Senshi and his already legendary cooking skill in regards to monsters.
Ahhh, I just love this series!
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2017-06-22, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
Just here to give this a dump and say I really liked the new manga chapter of OPM.
Spoiler
I mean, Saitama's talk was kind of stating the obvious but it still worked well enough. And King even tried what I would have, giving him a challenge he can't easily win. Though I'd have maybe tried something else than video games...
Also: Watchdog beating Garou is pretty fun. And him meeting the two and getting easily removed was at least a bit funny.
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2017-06-27, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
So recently I've been in a rare anime mood and looked into the 'Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid' anime since I heard so many speak well of it. I ended up enjoying it more then I expected. What I thought was going to be just another 'cute monster girls' thing ended up being something of an exploration in simple relationships of a shockingly non-romantic type. That always seemed like a rare thing in anime (and really media in general). I have to ask though, am I just reading to much into things?
Last edited by BiblioRook; 2017-06-27 at 12:35 AM.
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2017-06-27, 02:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour
I really think that Kobayashi, despite being full of dragons and fantasy, is a much better look at relationships than most purported romance shows.
Kobayashi is an extremely realistic person. And the way she slowly grows from "this dragon person is bloody crazy and I want my life back" to "I think I may actually love this family I built" to "I love Tohru and I will stare down a ****ing RPG final boss for her if necessary" is very well done. No need for extreme shows or cheesy confessions or crying drama under cherry blossom petals or any of that rot, because people's actual relationships don't work like that.
I think calling it non-romantic seems a definite stretch, though. Kobayashi is a person who has a lot of trouble putting herself out there emotionally, so she needs to take things slow (which she straight up admits to Tohru at one point), but I don't really think she's non-romantic about it. For one, Kobayashi is too kind and mindful of other people's feelings to lead the couldn't-be-more-obviously-smitten Tohru on for that long without telling her she's not interested, for her own sake, if she wasn't in fact interested.