Skyrim v.s Mordor

[ArlEammon]

But that makes some very critical assumptions:
1) that the battle spells out-range all other known weapons, including seige weapons and those loosed by ghost-kings from flying mounts. If spells are limited to line of sight then you expose yourself to counter fire every time you cast a spell. Most spells seem to be limited in range to mere yards- barely down the block or from end to end of a large room. Massed arrow fire could easily out-range them.
2) that you would ever have a single, massive battle where you could bring 1000 mages against the entire orc army.
3) that some or all of your wizards may decline to become involved, or worse, be suborned to the cause of Mordor.
4) that you are fighting a limited campaign. It takes far less time to birth 1000 orcs from a birthing pit than it does to fully train one combat-ready mage. Sauron is immortal, he can fight a war of attrition.

1) They don't need to. Think. . . the mages aren't going to be like eggs put in one basket.
2) Not necessary. Thirty, forty, fifty, or hundreds of them. . . now that's plausible.
3) Well, if Sauron has the means to seduce them with magical rings and all that. . . I don't know. He's probably out of the power needed for that sort of thing. Imperial Battlemages, though, won't refuse, they're soldiers.

[Zrak]

This a Mordor vs Skyrim thread. You wanna complain about everything you don't like about Skyrim, go start a Skyrim Sucks thread and let's stay on topic here.

I answered an interlocutor's questions that arose in response to my literal interpretation of the population depicted in Skyrim, which is directly relevant to the topic at hand; I'm refuting the objection that Skyrim's population is smaller than Daggerfall's because its approach to verisimilitude emphasized quality instead of quantity. If I'm already suspending my disbelief to the extent of treating the citizens of Skyrim like real people for the purpose ot the thread's question, I think it's unreasonable to suspend it further to assume there are way more of those people than depicted, when the population depicted two decades prior in Daggerfall hardly requires any more suspension of disbelief to be seen as real people but requires no suspension of disbelief at all to be seen as an appropriately sized population. By the standards of its own series, there is no reason to assume Skyrim's population is larger than depicted and certainly not by an entirely arbitrary factor.

1) They don't need to. Think. . . the mages aren't going to be like eggs put in one basket.

"Eggs in one basket" or not, the utility of mages is considerably diminished if they are out-ranged by conventional weapons available to the orcs. A fireball or lightning bolt can be arbitrarily powerful and remain useless if the mage doesn't survive to get close enough to cast it.

2) Not necessary. Thirty, forty, fifty, or hundreds of them. . . now that's plausible.

As stated above, I disagree. That number of mages is not plausibly fielded by a state of Skyrim's depicted size. If we're going to go making wild, arbitrary assumptions, we may as well decide Mordor has modern aircraft Tolkien forgot to depict.

3) Well, if Sauron has the means to seduce them with magical rings and all that. . . I don't know. He's probably out of the power needed for that sort of thing. Imperial Battlemages, though, won't refuse, they're soldiers.

Soldiers desert and defect all the time. There are even quests and major plots in Skyrim related to it happening; Ulfric and who knows how many other Stormcloaks were, after all, at one time Imperial soldiers. Jagar Tharn was a battlemage, and look how that turned out.

[ArlEammon]

I answered an interlocutor's questions that arose in response to my literal interpretation of the population depicted in Skyrim, which is directly relevant to the topic at hand; I'm refuting the objection that Skyrim's population is smaller than Daggerfall's because its approach to verisimilitude emphasized quality instead of quantity. If I'm already suspending my disbelief to the extent of treating the citizens of Skyrim like real people for the purpose ot the thread's question, I think it's unreasonable to suspend it further to assume there are way more of those people than depicted, when the population depicted two decades prior in Daggerfall hardly requires any more suspension of disbelief to be seen as real people but requires no suspension of disbelief at all to be seen as an appropriately sized population. By the standards of its own series, there is no reason to assume Skyrim's population is larger than depicted and certainly not by an entirely arbitrary factor.


"Eggs in one basket" or not, the utility of mages is considerably diminished if they are out-ranged by conventional weapons available to the orcs. A fireball or lightning bolt can be arbitrarily powerful and remain useless if the mage doesn't survive to get close enough to cast it.


As stated above, I disagree. That number of mages is not plausibly fielded by a state of Skyrim's depicted size. If we're going to go making wild, arbitrary assumptions, we may as well decide Mordor has modern aircraft Tolkien forgot to depict.



Soldiers desert and defect all the time. There are even quests and major plots in Skyrim related to it happening; Ulfric and who knows how many other Stormcloaks were, after all, at one time Imperial soldiers. Jagar Tharn was a battlemage, and look how that turned out.

They've fought for years in a bloody civil war. They WILL band together and fight what is basically President Satan invading Uzbekistan. They need to. Also, no neighbors exist in this RP, so they can't run off to Cyrodil or somewhere. Also, you disagree, but Skyrim's size is not reasonably represented. Cities have, at least thousands of people. If Solitude can be called a City, it definitely has around ten thousand people, at least. Most likely more around 50,000, at the very least. Skyrim as I remember, is as large as the United Kingdom. Or larger. It's sparsely populated because of poor security, mountains, wilderness infested with Spriggans, rabid territorial bears and saber cats, and lately dragons. Mordor might have precisely one dragon other than the Nazgul beasts. If Smaug is counted as a live. Skyrim has at least scores of dragons. Each of them capable of desolating (heh), a bigg-ish town like Helgen, and smaller ones like Riverwood. They might not exactly care about the enslavement of lesser races, but guess what? I'm guessing very strongly that these monsters will like little green pickles running around for a snack. Skyrim likely has at least one million people, as England during the Middle Ages had five million inhabitants, a Roman style country to the South of Skyrim only makes the Nords look backwards because their culture is very Medieval.

[Mando Knight]

Also, no neighbors exist in this RP, so they can't run off to Cyrodil or somewhere.

Then why resolve the Skyrim Civil War in favor of the Empire, if they're cut off from it?

[ArlEammon]

Then why resolve the Skyrim Civil War in favor of the Empire, if they're cut off from it?

Good point. . . Because they would have a lot of soldiers stationed there? Maybe Cyrodil is an island.

[Zrak]

They've fought for years in a bloody civil war. They WILL band together and fight what is basically President Satan invading Uzbekistan. They need to. Also, no neighbors exist in this RP, so they can't run off to Cyrodil or somewhere.

Without the other provinces, the political situation in Skyrim makes no sense. They've been fighting a bloody civil for years to liberate themselves from an Empire that doesn't exist over differences stemming from a previous conflict with another nation that also doesn't exist? Without the regions surrounding it, Skyrim ceases to be Skyrim and it's impossible to tell how the various factions would act because their situation is now totally different than every situation on which we can base any prediction of their behavior.

Also, you disagree, but Skyrim's size is not reasonably represented. Cities have, at least thousands of people. If Solitude can be called a City, it definitely has around ten thousand people, at least.

Why?

Most likely more around 50,000, at the very least.

So, basically, take the totally unsupported number above and multiply it by five for no reason.

Skyrim as I remember, is as large as the United Kingdom. Or larger. It's sparsely populated because of poor security, mountains, wilderness infested with Spriggans, rabid territorial bears and saber cats, and lately dragons. . .Skyrim likely has at least one million people, as England during the Middle Ages had five million inhabitants, a Roman style country to the South of Skyrim only makes the Nords look backwards because their culture is very Medieval.

Skyrim is much smaller than Greenland, and modern Greenland has less than sixty thousand people. The size of the country is irrelevant.

[Legato Endless]

As stated above, I disagree. That number of mages is not plausibly fielded by a state of Skyrim's depicted size. If we're going to go making wild, arbitrary assumptions, we may as well decide Mordor has modern aircraft Tolkien forgot to depict.

Do the cars roaming around Farmer Maggot's field in the theatrical release of FotR count?

[Zrak]

I think that depends on if we're talking about the Mordor of the books or the movies. If we're talking about the movies, I'd say they have at least a thousand times that many cars. No, make that five thousand. Actually, let's just call it 20% of the total number of cars in England.

[ArlEammon]

Without the other provinces, the political situation in Skyrim makes no sense. They've been fighting a bloody civil for years to liberate themselves from an Empire that doesn't exist over differences stemming from a previous conflict with another nation that also doesn't exist? Without the regions surrounding it, Skyrim ceases to be Skyrim and it's impossible to tell how the various factions would act because their situation is now totally different than every situation on which we can base any prediction of their behavior.


Why?


So, basically, take the totally unsupported number above and multiply it by five for no reason.


Skyrim is much smaller than Greenland, and modern Greenland has less than sixty thousand people. The size of the country is irrelevant.

Skyrim's LORE size is MUCH larger than Greenland.

Daggerfall: 62,394 square miles.

[Legato Endless]

They've fought for years in a bloody civil war. They WILL band together and fight what is basically President Satan invading Uzbekistan. They need to.

Yes, but even if we assume this is true, most of Skyrim's population doesn't live in the cities, no matter how you slice it. And of those who live in the wilderness, a lot of them would flock to Mordor.

I mean, the demographics speak for themselves:

http://i.imgur.com/2iYn5rY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PfXetM1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hVatV.png

Skyrim's LORE size is MUCH larger than Greenland.

Daggerfall: 62,394 square miles.

Dude, Greenland is huge. I know Mercator maps exaggerate that beyond all get out, but it's still a bloody 836,109 sq mi. According to the wiki, Skyrim is only an 8th of that.

[ArlEammon]

Yes, but even if we assume this is true, most of Skyrim's population doesn't live in the cities, no matter how you slice it. And of those who live in the wilderness, a lot of them would flock to Mordor.

I mean, the demographics speak for themselves:

http://i.imgur.com/2iYn5rY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PfXetM1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hVatV.png



Dude, Greenland is huge. I know Mercator maps exaggerate that beyond all get out, but it's still a bloody 836,109 sq mi. According to the wiki, Skyrim is only an 8th of that.

Oh, Iceland is small. . . not Greenland. Sorry.

[Starwulf]

Yeah, you can talk to them. That's why I said you could talk to them. The only time you won't get a response is if you've done enough heinous things for the whole country to give you the cold shoulder. I think even then you get a message that says something like "I don't have time for the likes of you!" or whatever.



I see that as an illusion of depth. That's approximately the amount of depth that "characters" on a cuckoo clock have.

In the end, my original point stands in that a modern system with modern graphics couldn't ever handle the amount of people it would take to realistically depict Skyrims population. Unless you absolutely truly believe that Skyrim really is only populated by about 50 people per town, which is a fairly ridiculous assumption imo. The base truth of the matter is Daggerfalls graphics were of such that it didn't put a strain on a cpu/gpu back in the day, but Skyrim already requires quite a fair amount of horsepower in your computer, and that's not even counting the HD mod that was released almost on release. Add a realistic amount of people in there, and you'd see frame-rates plummeting to 10. That is why there are not as many people in Skyrim, and Oblivion as well, and heck, even Morrowind, as there was in Daggerfall.

Therefore, arguing(because yes, I did have a point that was on topic) that Skyrims population is far to small to even be a minor threat to Mordor based on how many could feasibly be shown in a video game is honestly ridiculous.

[ArlEammon]

In the end, my original point stands in that a modern system with modern graphics couldn't ever handle the amount of people it would take to realistically depict Skyrims population. Unless you absolutely truly believe that Skyrim really is only populated by about 50 people per town, which is a fairly ridiculous assumption imo. The base truth of the matter is Daggerfalls graphics were of such that it didn't put a strain on a cpu/gpu back in the day, but Skyrim already requires quite a fair amount of horsepower in your computer, and that's not even counting the HD mod that was released almost on release. Add a realistic amount of people in there, and you'd see frame-rates plummeting to 10. That is why there are not as many people in Skyrim, and Oblivion as well, and heck, even Morrowind, as there was in Daggerfall.

Therefore, arguing(because yes, I did have a point that was on topic) that Skyrims population is far to small to even be a minor threat to Mordor based on how many could feasibly be shown in a video game is honestly ridiculous.

It's kind of my point that just because the graphics engine can't support one hundred people per village or thousands upon thousands of people per city, there is still no substantiation to support the Twenty person per settlement RPG cliche exists in Skyrim's "Real" life.

[josienoms]

To be fair, it really doesn't matter how many people are in Skyrim. They'll still lose. Sauron isn't a force that can be defeated by strength of arms. That was kinda the entire point of the Lord of the Rings. He's a force of nature, an elemental embodiment of evil. It doesn't matter how many soldiers you send to fight a tidal wave, their only options are to get out of the way or die.

Sure, his armies can be defeated temporarily. His plans can be disrupted. But he's immortal, and can afford to wait. Really, the best hope that the people of Skyrim have is to somehow get their hands on the One Ring, give it to the Dovakiin, and pray to the Nine Divines that it doesn't corrupt them before they can chuck it into Mount Doom.

Of course, the way most people play Skyrim means the Dovakiin is a stereotypical murderhobo. I'm pretty sure a few days into the quest, the Dovakiin would be too busy golluming to do anyone much good.

[ArlEammon]

To be fair, it really doesn't matter how many people are in Skyrim. They'll still lose. Sauron isn't a force that can be defeated by strength of arms. That was kinda the entire point of the Lord of the Rings. He's a force of nature, an elemental embodiment of evil. It doesn't matter how many soldiers you send to fight a tidal wave, their only options are to get out of the way or die.

Sure, his armies can be defeated temporarily. His plans can be disrupted. But he's immortal, and can afford to wait. Really, the best hope that the people of Skyrim have is to somehow get their hands on the One Ring, give it to the Dovakiin, and pray to the Nine Divines that it doesn't corrupt them before they can chuck it into Mount Doom.

Of course, the way most people play Skyrim means the Dovakiin is a stereotypical murderhobo. I'm pretty sure a few days into the quest, the Dovakiin would be too busy golluming to do anyone much good.

Or he defeats Sauron himself. lol. A better thread IMHO.

[Starwulf]

It's kind of my point that just because the graphics engine can't support one hundred people per village or thousands upon thousands of people per city, there is still no substantiation to support the Twenty person per settlement RPG cliche exists in Skyrim's "Real" life.

My apologies, I totally missed you stating that, I just saw Zrak talking about how Daggerfall managed to show hundreds/thousands of people in a city, so if they did it, and SKyrim didn't then Skyrim obviously is just that little populated, and I responded. So yes then, It is your point, and I whole-heartedly support it, it is kind of silly to believe that Skyrim is so sparsely populated.

To be fair, it really doesn't matter how many people are in Skyrim. They'll still lose. Sauron isn't a force that can be defeated by strength of arms. That was kinda the entire point of the Lord of the Rings. He's a force of nature, an elemental embodiment of evil. It doesn't matter how many soldiers you send to fight a tidal wave, their only options are to get out of the way or die.

Sure, in the LoTR universe that holds true, but magic is a bit more sparse there, Sauron never had to contend with people who can create new magical spells at whim either. There is a fair chance that someone living in Skyrim would eventually come up with a spell that would put him to rest permanently without destroying the ring.

Of course, the way most people play Skyrim means the Dovakiin is a stereotypical murderhobo. I'm pretty sure a few days into the quest, the Dovakiin would be too busy golluming to do anyone much good.

LMAO. That it pretty much spot-on and literally made me laugh out loud, quite loudly at that. I've personally not played any TES game in such a manner since Daggerfall, but I have several friends who play the TES series and all of them do the whole MurderHobo bit and think nothing of it. I don't exactly "RP" my character, but neither do I treat him or the people in the game as entirely disposable and go around slaughtering whole settlements just for the lulz.

[Drascin]

Eh, a lot is being made of Skyrim mages, but honestly playing Skyrim I was extremely unimpressed by magic. Archery deals more damage than Destruction in most circumstances and far more reliably, and mage defenses are super good at dealing with magic and can't deal with anyone else in any practical way. And to this add that going through the Winterhold College quest seems to show that the best and brightest of the Skyrim mages are a bunch of utter dumbs.

Sauron has archers. Probably about as many as, even lorewise, the hold capitals have people put together - reminder that, canonically, the more than hundred thousand strong army that nearly bowled over Gondor in the battle of the Fields of Pelennor was "nothing but the first finger of a hand". He also has trebuchets and siege tools. 90% of mages are going to be outclassed and outdamaged by mass archer fire and siege weaponry. He also has a bunch of other things. Trolls that make the giants in Skyrim look puny. An army that actually acts in concert, while the Skyrim population is scattered all around the countryside and divided, and even among the cities, only Solitude, Winterhold and Markarth really have any kind of defensible position. A willingness to make deals like he cut with the Eastern men with things like the Forsworn. An innate affinity for the undead and werewolves, both of which Skyrim has, the first in more than abundance to make the Necromancer happy. Etcetera.

The country's sheer harshness is the only real opponent Mordor has in this matchup. The humans' position is terrible, and their main hope is to hold out enough fo General Winter to grind the orcs down.

[lt_murgen]

Sure, in the LoTR universe that holds true, but magic is a bit more sparse there, Sauron never had to contend with people who can create new magical spells at whim either. There is a fair chance that someone living in Skyrim would eventually come up with a spell that would put him to rest permanently without destroying the ring.

Actually, that is incorrect. He went up against first age elves directly for thousands of years. Elves who were powerful enough to create the ents just by 'waking them up'. Elves who created the simirils, the seeing stones, and ALL of the rings of power. Heck, every single magical item in middle earth was created by elves or the Numenoreans, it seems. Even the morgul blades weilded by the Nazgul came from corrupted Black Numneoreans.
Galadriel's older brother went toe to to in a magical battle with Sauron, http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Finrod.

If anything, the LOTR shows just how effective Suaron is as destroying or corrupting magic. By the third age, the powerful elven lords were reduced to using their powers to shield their dying realms. 5 demigods sent to aid middle earth constrained in their powers, lest they fall as Sauron did. Magical items being few and far between- most of them in the hands of allies of Sauron.

[ArlEammon]

Skyrim's destruction magic is only shown to be unimpressive in-game. Lore-wise, Destruction magic is much better. It's only less powerful than Dragon Shouts, which by the way, if Ulfric wasn't slain, Mordor would have a whole new barrel of monkeys to deal with. But let's face it, Mordor would also have the problem of dealing with Harkon, and Miraak. Miraak is certainly far superior in everyway to Ulfric.

[Darth Credence]

Well, this has gone to places I didn't expect. But I think it clarifies a few things.

Skyrim wins, no question

If Skyrim loses a single battle, they would just need to add more mods to their world. We can just give a mod to every one of the few thousand people that live in Skyrim, making them indestructible and carrying around one hit kill weapons. Each person can go out and mow down as many orcs as they want until they are bored, then the next person goes. When Sauron finally decides to join the fight, his death will go to the first person to reach him. He may be able to deal with all magic in the world, but he is a function of the world. Skyrim's mods make things that are not a function of the world, and can be created in such a way that nothing in the world stands up to them.

[josienoms]

See, in my mind that just proves that Mordor would win.

The only way Skyrim has a chance is if they cheat, and somebody rewrites the fundamental metaphysics of reality.

[Eldan]

Except, of course, the Elder scrolls has beings who can rewrite the fundamental metaphysics of reality.

[Legato Endless]

Which is sort of the problem with Elder Scrolls cross overs. Whatever the merits of the rank and file in Mundus, there's any number of beings with reality altering power, from dragon breaks to CHIM, to less impressively ascending to godhood. (Yes, the last of these is the least powerful feat wise.) An unlike Ea, many of these beings aren't bound by limitations or noninterference clauses. The only way LOTR wins in any kind of free for all is with Iluvatar smacking away everyone else's cosmic keyboard. Although as cross overs go, the Valar and the Aedra would slot into each other's setting relatively decently, as both are gods whose acts of creating the material world left them bound to it in some fashion.

[danzibr]

I don't have anything to say that hasn't been said. I'd bet on Mordor.

But... why does this thread have the music tag?

[Eldan]

Duh. Dance-off. The Witch King vs. the High King.

Backup by traditional Nordic folk dances and Mordor's Ork Chorus

[Bulldog Psion]

Duh. Dance-off. The Witch King vs. the High King.

Backup by traditional Nordic folk dances and Mordor's Ork Chorus

Your interpretation reminds me of this. (Which is safe, but be forewarned that Oglaf is extremely NSFW most of the time).

[Drascin]

Duh. Dance-off. The Witch King vs. the High King.

Backup by traditional Nordic folk dances and Mordor's Ork Chorus

Okay, that one I might be willing to give to Skyrim. At least the High King is human. I'm pretty sure the Witch King lost any ability for doing fun things about a millenium ago.

[Eldan]

Your interpretation reminds me of this. (Which is safe, but be forewarned that Oglaf is extremely NSFW most of the time).

Ooh, yeah. I should have thought of that one.

If aliveness is a problem, I can propose alternatives.

Witch King vs. Wolf Queen
Mouth of Sauron vs. Thalmor Ambassador
Lydia vs. Sam in a weight-carrying obstacle contest.

[Legato Endless]

Ooh, yeah. I should have thought of that one.

If aliveness is a problem, I can propose alternatives.

Witch King vs. Wolf Queen
Mouth of Sauron vs. Thalmor Ambassador
Lydia vs. Sam in a weight-carrying obstacle contest.

Sam. Lydia is stronger, but she gets stuck in straight hallways, so there's no way she's get through the obstacle course.

[Eldan]

I'd like to think everyone would bet on Sam in this one. After all, he also complains far less about carrying burdens.