VMC Prc

[Shadowscale]

With VMC what would be the best and most effective way to get a non spell casting battle herald? Would standard bearer Cavalier straight into battle herald be an effective character?

[Molosse]

With VMC what would be the best and most effective way to get a non spell casting battle herald? Would standard bearer Cavalier straight into battle herald be an effective character?

I can think of four ways, one of which that requires 3pp.

I) Standard Bearer OoDragon (VMC Bard) will allow you to jump into B.Herald at level 8. Grab the Flagbearer feat, Chain Challenge and the Banner of Ancient Kings.

II) Inspiring Commander (3pp) grants Inspire Courage as a class feature so you can go ahead and jump into B.Herald at level 5.

III) Exemplar Brawler (VMC Cavalier) perhaps has the best synergy after option I, grabbing a pair of T.Work feats at level 5/7, with Challenge and Inspire Courage at level 3.

IV) Sensei Monk (VMC Cavalier) works similarly to the Brawler example in III but I wouldn't recommend it.

Finally I'd say that with a VMC Bard on a OoDragon S.Bearer going into Battle Herald is, if anything, a downgrade, remaining a much stronger class with similar features.

[Shadowscale]

I can think of four ways, one of which that requires 3pp.

I) Standard Bearer OoDragon (VMC Bard) will allow you to jump into B.Herald at level 8. Grab the Flagbearer feat, Chain Challenge and the Banner of Ancient Kings.

II) Inspiring Commander (3pp) grants Inspire Courage as a class feature so you can go ahead and jump into B.Herald at level 5.

III) Exemplar Brawler (VMC Cavalier) perhaps has the best synergy after option I, grabbing a pair of T.Work feats at level 5/7, with Challenge and Inspire Courage at level 3.

IV) Sensei Monk (VMC Cavalier) works similarly to the Brawler example in III but I wouldn't recommend it.

Finally I'd say that with a VMC Bard on a OoDragon S.Bearer going into Battle Herald is, if anything, a downgrade, remaining a much stronger class with similar features.

So you believe no real positive is to be gained from dragon order standard bearer going into BH?

[Molosse]

So you believe no real positive is to be gained from dragon order standard bearer going into BH?

Don't get me wrong, you get a bonus to Leadership and access to Inspire Greatness a few levels early. Also some of the Inspiring Commands can be pretty decent and B.Herald+VMC Bard gives great stacking onto your Inspire Courage bonus.

I just feel like the loss of the fully-levelled Mount, the loss of the stacking Order Bonus', the loss of the increasingly powerful Challenge and the weakening of both the Tactician and Banner abilities make it a better bet to just stick with the OoDragon Standard Bearer (VMC Bard).

That isn't to say that B.Herald isn't a decent pick for the build, nor is to say that in some ways the B.Herald route isn't better, personally I just don't think the positives outweigh the negatives.

[Shadowscale]

Don't get me wrong, you get a bonus to Leadership and access to Inspire Greatness a few levels early. Also some of the Inspiring Commands can be pretty decent and B.Herald+VMC Bard gives great stacking onto your Inspire Courage bonus.

I just feel like the loss of the fully-levelled Mount, the loss of the stacking Order Bonus', the loss of the increasingly powerful Challenge and the weakening of both the Tactician and Banner abilities make it a better bet to just stick with the OoDragon Standard Bearer (VMC Bard).

That isn't to say that B.Herald isn't a decent pick for the build, nor is to say that in some ways the B.Herald route isn't better, personally I just don't think the positives outweigh the negatives.

ah alright, do you feel lastly that my decision of standard bearer is good or bad? I just love how for only a 5 level push back you still get a fully advanced mount with it, seems strictly better to me. Any real synergy of VMC bard with it. Or would you think it's better without? I just live support maxed out, yet dislike spells myself.

[Psyren]

Horse Master fixes the scaling mount issue

[Molosse]

Horse Master fixes the scaling mount issue

It does at that, but the first level you could grab it would be 6, in your combat feat bonus slot or 9 in an already feat starved build.

[Shadowscale]

It does at that, but the first level you could grab it would be 6, in your combat feat bonus slot or 9 in an already feat starved build.

I'm thinking of going straight SB Ood cavalier, what feats do you recommend, I'm thinking few mounted feats, glaive and full plate most likely adamantium.

[Molosse]

I'm thinking of going straight SB Ood cavalier, what feats do you recommend, I'm thinking few mounted feats, glaive and full plate most likely adamantium.

Spoiler

Show

Some assumptions within the build before we begin:
I) The Cavalier's Banner will consist of a Heraldic Tabard, going from the line "Small or larger and must be carried or displayed by the Cavalier or his mount to function" from the Banner Class Feature.

Standard Bearer (Bard VMC)

Str: 18 (Level 8: 19) (Level 12: 20)
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 13 (Level 4: 14)

Trait: Indomitable Faith
Trait: Reactionary

Order: Order of the Dragon
Favored Class Bonus: +1/4 Banner Bonus

1: Noble Scion (Arts), Power Attack, Tactician Feat: Distracting Charge
2:
3: VMC: Bardic Knowledge
4:
5: Improved Initiative
6: Bonus Feat: Mounted Combat
7: VMC: Bardic Performance (Inspire Courage +1, Inspire Competence +2)
8:
9: Chain Challenge, Tactician Feat: Outflank
10:
11: VMC: Versatile Performance
12: Bonus Feat: ?

Noble Scion (Arts) does the following: Grants some extra uses of Bardic Performance to make up for the limited number of uses the VMC Bard gets while also giving Performance as both a Class Skill and a +1 to the Skill, this remains important when one considers that at Level 11 the VMC grants Versatile Performance while the Cavalier does not gain Performance as a Class Skill.

My Mount will be a Horse who grabs the Charger AC Archetype, to benefit from both the Barding Training and the Mini-Challenge.

Finally the build has a damn near perfect first round action economy to provide benefits to both the Cavalier and, most importantly for the focus of this build, his allies at Level 12:

OoDragon Challenge: +4 to-hit /-2AC for Challenge Target - Circumstance Bonus (Swift Action)
Inspire Courage: +2 to-hit/damage /+2 vs Charm - Competence/Morale Bonus (Move Action)
Banner: +6 to-hit on Charge/vs Fear - Morale (Passive)
Strategy (OoD): +2 to AC/Free Move/+2 to-hit - Dodge/Morale (Standard Action)
G. Tactician: Teamwork Feat (Swift Action)
Banner of Solace: +6 Temp Hp/+2 damage on next attack - Morale (Full-Round/Pre-Combat)

My turn order therefore at Level 11/12 would be:

Pre-Combat -
I) Throw out Banner of Solace. (10 min)

Round 1 -
I) Swift Action to designate Challenge target.
II) Move Action to activate Inspire Courage.
III) Standard Action to activate Strategy and grant any of the mentioned bonus' above, in particular the Horse will utilize the free move to shift 50' upto my Challenge'd target.
IV) Horse now full attacks with 1/2 my Challenge bonus as well as the combined + to-hit from both the OoD Challenge and Demanding Challenge.

Round 2 -
I) Swift Action to active Greater Tactician.
II) Full Attack/Move + Attack away.

Before this point at levels 1-4 I'd simply be a Two-Handed Martial who provides a Teamwork Feat and a slightly stronger Charge bonus.
From 5-7 I'd function as normal for a non-Charge orientated Cavalier
From 8-10 I'd have to choose between Inspire Courage and Strategy depending on the situation.

That's the build I'm most happy with at the moment, pick and choose from there and you'll be golden.

[Shadowscale]

Spoiler

Show

Some assumptions within the build before we begin:
I) The Cavalier's Banner will consist of a Heraldic Tabard, going from the line "Small or larger and must be carried or displayed by the Cavalier or his mount to function" from the Banner Class Feature.

Standard Bearer (Bard VMC)

Str: 18 (Level 8: 19) (Level 12: 20)
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 13 (Level 4: 14)

Trait: Indomitable Faith
Trait: Reactionary

Order: Order of the Dragon
Favored Class Bonus: +1/4 Banner Bonus

1: Noble Scion (Arts), Power Attack, Tactician Feat: Distracting Charge
2:
3: VMC: Bardic Knowledge
4:
5: Improved Initiative
6: Bonus Feat: Mounted Combat
7: VMC: Bardic Performance (Inspire Courage +1, Inspire Competence +2)
8:
9: Chain Challenge, Tactician Feat: Outflank
10:
11: VMC: Versatile Performance
12: Bonus Feat: ?

Noble Scion (Arts) does the following: Grants some extra uses of Bardic Performance to make up for the limited number of uses the VMC Bard gets while also giving Performance as both a Class Skill and a +1 to the Skill, this remains important when one considers that at Level 11 the VMC grants Versatile Performance while the Cavalier does not gain Performance as a Class Skill.

My Mount will be a Horse who grabs the Charger AC Archetype, to benefit from both the Barding Training and the Mini-Challenge.

Finally the build has a damn near perfect first round action economy to provide benefits to both the Cavalier and, most importantly for the focus of this build, his allies at Level 12:

OoDragon Challenge: +4 to-hit /-2AC for Challenge Target - Circumstance Bonus (Swift Action)
Inspire Courage: +2 to-hit/damage /+2 vs Charm - Competence/Morale Bonus (Move Action)
Banner: +6 to-hit on Charge/vs Fear - Morale (Passive)
Strategy (OoD): +2 to AC/Free Move/+2 to-hit - Dodge/Morale (Standard Action)
G. Tactician: Teamwork Feat (Swift Action)
Banner of Solace: +6 Temp Hp/+2 damage on next attack - Morale (Full-Round/Pre-Combat)

My turn order therefore at Level 11/12 would be:

Pre-Combat -
I) Throw out Banner of Solace. (10 min)

Round 1 -
I) Swift Action to designate Challenge target.
II) Move Action to activate Inspire Courage.
III) Standard Action to activate Strategy and grant any of the mentioned bonus' above, in particular the Horse will utilize the free move to shift 50' upto my Challenge'd target.
IV) Horse now full attacks with 1/2 my Challenge bonus as well as the combined + to-hit from both the OoD Challenge and Demanding Challenge.

Round 2 -
I) Swift Action to active Greater Tactician.
II) Full Attack/Move + Attack away.

Before this point at levels 1-4 I'd simply be a Two-Handed Martial who provides a Teamwork Feat and a slightly stronger Charge bonus.
From 5-7 I'd function as normal for a non-Charge orientated Cavalier
From 8-10 I'd have to choose between Inspire Courage and Strategy depending on the situation.

That's the build I'm most happy with at the moment, pick and choose from there and you'll be golden.

I'm very much a fan of this build and think I'll run it, it needs to default to human correct? Wow I'm happy with all the bonuses, it seems to do high damage while boosting the party. One thing I didn't get? Why does the mount only get half challenge bonus?

Sorry I'm still sort of new to actual play, cavalier is my favorite though and I very much look forward to playing this as I love front liners, reach weapons, heavy armor, support spam, and no spells.

Thanks again for this, should be super excited to play even with higher tiers.

[Molosse]

I'm very much a fan of this build and think I'll run it, it needs to default to human correct? Wow I'm happy with all the bonuses, it seems to do high damage while boosting the party. One thing I didn't get? Why does the mount only get half challenge bonus?

Sorry I'm still sort of new to actual play, cavalier is my favorite though and I very much look forward to playing this as I love front liners, reach weapons, heavy armor, support spam, and no spells.

Thanks again for this, should be super excited to play even with higher tiers.

Aye it is a Human build and aye when Chain Challenge comes online you're looking at a consistent +Lvl to damage which, when used with P.Attack, really stings.

Beyond that the Charger AC for Animal Companions allows the Companion to gain half of the Cavaliers bonus to damage whenever you, the Cavalier, declare a challenge and remain astride or adjacent to the mount, it'll still get the full OoDragon bonus mind.

[Shadowscale]

Aye it is a Human build and aye when Chain Challenge comes online you're looking at a consistent +Lvl to damage which, when used with P.Attack, really stings.

Beyond that the Charger AC for Animal Companions allows the Companion to gain half of the Cavaliers bonus to damage whenever you, the Cavalier, declare a challenge and remain astride or adjacent to the mount, it'll still get the full OoDragon bonus mind.

We're you using a glacé or should I be thinking differently to be optimal? My thought at first for it was the banner, but your tabard idea is smart.

[Molosse]

We're you using a glacé or should I be thinking differently to be optimal? My thought at first for it was the banner, but your tabard idea is smart.

I just went for a Greatsword mate, mainly because I preferred the image. I would say that if you deign to push up your Cha a point higher you can grab the Flagbearer feat. Throw it on a Longspear and you can finish up with the Banner of Ancient Kings. Do it either by retraining out Improved Init, since the Banner grants a +4 to init in any case, or finding room somewhere.

Best of luck with it.