New to adnd and looking to see if this is possible.

[Dominuce2112]

I was recruited to a group that has never played/looked at anything past 2nd edition. As a player that started at 3.5 and went to 5e, I thought something different could be fun.
I was told the DM knows the rules and allows pretty much anything in his game as long as you have a reason to do it. The only thing I havent been able to play in the newer editions is a puppeteer. A crazed assassin that uses his modified puppet to kill.
What are some ways that can be done with some minor rule bending? Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

[Lord Torath]

You could ask for a hand puppet with a concealed dagger. Or possibly a marionette with a concealed garotte.

Or did you want an animated puppet?

[LibraryOgre]

Perhaps a specialized magic user with an odd familiar? My inclination is to say the Witch kit, giving a reason for your assassin to have a killer (pun intended) familiar.

[Dominuce2112]

You could ask for a hand puppet with a concealed dagger. Or possibly a marionette with a concealed garotte.

Or did you want an animated puppet?

Thats the thing, I am on the fence about having him be a mechanical knife with a wooden face (and I am insane and just thinks hes alive) or having him be a familiar, acting on his own with his own actions and thoughts.

[LibraryOgre]

That's something of a big decision to make. I mean, heck, you might play a cleric with the Animal sphere, and your puppet is a well-trained, vicious monkey.

[Jay R]

Thats the thing, I am on the fence about having him be a mechanical knife with a wooden face (and I am insane and just thinks hes alive) or having him be a familiar, acting on his own with his own actions and thoughts.

We can't tell you how to simulate the effect you want until you decide what effect you want.

[Lord Torath]

Also pertinent: Are you playing AD&D or 2E AD&D? In AD&D, there's a specific Assassin class. Is that what you're playing? Or are you playing another class that just happens to kill people for money?

[JadedDM]

Also, what level are you? There is a thing called a Doll Golem, and I don't see why you couldn't use a puppet in place of the doll. It's creepy as heck and pretty strong, but it requires a priest of 15th level, 2 months and 20,000 GP to make one. If you aren't a priest and not that high level, you could possibly find one and commission one.

[Digitalelf]

Also pertinent: Are you playing AD&D or 2E AD&D? In AD&D, there's a specific Assassin class. Is that what you're playing? Or are you playing another class that just happens to kill people for money?

An Assassin class was introduced in 2nd edition AD&D late in it's run (introduced in 1999). The class was in the (2e) World of Greyhawk "The Scarlet Brotherhood" sourcebook.

[Digitalelf]

Also, what level are you? There is a thing called a Doll Golem, and I don't see why you couldn't use a puppet in place of the doll.

There was also the "Carrionette", which was an animated, intelligent, stringed puppet.

[JadedDM]

There was also the "Carrionette", which was an animated, intelligent, stringed puppet.

True, but since they are always trying to find a human host, I wasn't sure if they would be useful for an assassin who wants to use it to kill.

[Digitalelf]

True, but since they are always trying to find a human host, I wasn't sure if they would be useful for an assassin who wants to use it to kill.

Yes, but it is really easy to just ignore that little bit of their description, or all of it for that matter, and just use the stats alone.

[Dominuce2112]

We can't tell you how to simulate the effect you want until you decide what effect you want.

I want to be insane and think the puppet is alive, when its actually just a well crafted tool for killing.

I am starting off at level 1 but the rest of the party is higher level. I think theyre around 5.

I am pretty sure its adnd. The guy I talked to recommended the assassin as a base and working around that, but hes not the DM. I just asked if it was possible. He also recommended an illusionist, but I thats not the theme I am going for.

[runeghost]

I was recruited to a group that has never played/looked at anything past 2nd edition. As a player that started at 3.5 and went to 5e, I thought something different could be fun.
I was told the DM knows the rules and allows pretty much anything in his game as long as you have a reason to do it. The only thing I havent been able to play in the newer editions is a puppeteer. A crazed assassin that uses his modified puppet to kill.
What are some ways that can be done with some minor rule bending? Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

If you're playing in 1st Ed, I see two relatively straightforward options.

Mundane puppet - does damage (and other weapon stats) as a dagger, but can't be thrown. Play an assassin (thief sub-class). To assassinate with it, simply declare you're using the puppet when you make an assassination attempt, if the attempt suceeds, describe the death in as much gory puppet detail as you want.

Magical puppet - This will be harder to do at 1st level, unless you have a generous DM. Either play an assassin/MU with a special familiar (thus the need for a generous DM if starting at 1st), or go with a dual-classed MU-Assassin. The first will require either the DMs approval or Unearthed Arcana. The second will require high stats and a little time.

[Jay R]

I want to be insane and think the puppet is alive, when its actually just a well crafted tool for killing.

I am starting off at level 1 but the rest of the party is higher level. I think theyre around 5.

There's your problem. You're trying to have more power than a first level character can have.

You can wield a weapon, but you can't control anything at distance. A first level wizard can have a familiar, but you roll to see what kind, after spending 1,000 gp.

I'd make him a hand puppet that acts like a dagger or short sword or mace at first, with the intent to buy magic for it later.

[Thrudd]

I was recruited to a group that has never played/looked at anything past 2nd edition. As a player that started at 3.5 and went to 5e, I thought something different could be fun.
I was told the DM knows the rules and allows pretty much anything in his game as long as you have a reason to do it. The only thing I havent been able to play in the newer editions is a puppeteer. A crazed assassin that uses his modified puppet to kill.
What are some ways that can be done with some minor rule bending? Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

I can't even picture what you're talking about. A puppeteer? How would that even be relevant to adventuring? There's a reason you haven't been able to play it yet: it makes no sense. I would reserve this idea maybe for a different game. Maybe world of darkness, Mage or Vampire or something?

The only thing I could picture in D&D would be maybe if you used a sock puppet, and strangled people with it like Mankind and Socko? Is that what you were thinking of? I really wouldn't consider that a puppeteer requiring any kind of skill. Just a crazy guy that's kind of silly. Is this a wacky/silly kind of joke campaign?

Or you just think your knife is alive and has a mind of its own. That requires no rules, just roleplaying.

[Dominuce2112]

{{scrubbed}}

[Thrudd]

{{scrubbed}}

The point is, you're asking for something the system just doesn't do. It's the same as if you asked to be a flying superhero type that can shoot beams from your eyes. You're in the wrong game for that. Unless your DM wants to create a new ability and rules just for you, what you're asking isn't possible in AD&D. A puppet with a knife could never deliver enough force to kill anyone. A magical creature with a knife is not something you get to control as a player. A knife with a face is not a puppet, but you could do that.

[Lord Torath]

The point is, you're asking for something the system just doesn't do. It's the same as if you asked to be a flying superhero type that can shoot beams from your eyes. You're in the wrong game for that. Unless your DM wants to create a new ability and rules just for you, what you're asking isn't possible in AD&D. A puppet with a knife could never deliver enough force to kill anyone. A magical creature with a knife is not something you get to control as a player. A knife with a face is not a puppet, but you could do that.

You could ask for a hand puppet with a concealed dagger. Or possibly a marionette with a concealed garotte.

Or perhaps a wooden "Woody" puppet with a concealed poison dart launcher (maybe 10' range). Do none of these sound feasible? (Note that the hand puppet is built around and conceals a full-sized dagger; not that it's a hand puppet that holds a puppet-sized dagger).

[Thrudd]

Or perhaps a wooden "Woody" puppet with a concealed poison dart launcher (maybe 10' range). Do none of these sound feasible? (Note that the hand puppet is built around and conceals a full-sized dagger; not that it's a hand puppet that holds a puppet-sized dagger).

Sure, that's basically the "knife with a face". However, would you draw the dagger from the puppet, like it was a type of sheath? If you did that, how would the character reason that the puppet was killing people? If you didn't draw the dagger out of the puppet, then you attack with a dagger surrounded by cloth? Or the dagger sticks out of the puppet's head, and it's actually a kind of punch-dagger, with a face where your fist is. There's no moveable mouth or arms, in this case, just a sort of sock covering your arm.

If the assassin attacks exclusively with poison darts and needles, then possibly they could use a marionette with a needle sticking out of one arm, or a traditional hand puppet the same way. But it would be really hard to sneak up on someone to deliver the poison in this way. A marionette who's body is actually a blowgun might work, but it isn't as though you can't conceal a blowgun in a hundred other ways. Also, the assassin would clearly have to know the puppet wasn't alive, because they'd need to pick it up, load a dart into it and use it in an un-puppet like manner.

Or, you have a hand puppet. When the "puppet" wants to kill someone, the character just uses the puppet covered hand to wield a weapon and attack away. Later, the character will refer to such attacks as being made by the puppet, not him/herself.

[JustIgnoreMe]

It sounds like the OP is trying to emulate the Batman villain Ventriloquist. Like many Batman villains, the Ventriloquist has a "comic-book" version of a mental illness: he suffers from dissociative identity disorder, which manifests as an alternative personality that manifests in a puppet, Scarface, who is the "criminal one": the Ventriloquist sees himself as an innocent victim, Scarface's lackey.

The concept would work much better in a superhero or horror game, rather than a fantasy one.

If this were for 3.5, I'd suggest a small Warforged as a cohort or something... But it's AD&D, where your options are considerably more limited.

(besides Batman, he could also be taking inspiration from the Anthony Hopkins movie Magic, or the Dr Who story Talons of Wei Chang).

[Mutazoia]

I think what you are looking for is THIS

Spoiler: Doll Golem

Show

Doll Golem
The doll golem is an animated version of a child's toy that can be put to either good uses (defending the young) or evil uses (attacking them). It is often crafted so as to make it appear bright and cheerful when at rest. Upon activation, however, its features become twisted and horrific.

Combat: The doll golem is, like all similar creatures, immune to almost all magical attacks. It can be harmed by fire-based spells, although these do only half damage, while a warp wood spell will affect the creature as if it were a slow spell. A mending spell restores the creature to full hit points at once.
Each round, the doll golem leaps onto a victim and attempts to bite it. Success inflicts 3d6 points of damage and forces the victim to save versus spells. Failure to save causes the victim to begin to laugh uncontrollably (as if under the influence of a Tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter spell) and become unable to perform any other action. The effects of the creature's bite are far worse, however. The victim begins to laugh on the round after the failed save. At this time, they take 1d4 points of damage from the muscle spasms imposed by the laughter. On following rounds, this increases to 2d4, then 3d4, and so on. The laughter stops when the character dies or receives a dispel magic. Following recovery, the victim suffers a penalty on all attack and saving throws of -1 per round that they were overcome with laughter (e.g., four rounds of uncontrolled laughter would equal a -4 penalty on attack/saving throws). This represents the weakness caused by the character's inability to breathe and is reduced by 1 point per subsequent turn until the character is fully recovered.

[Thrudd]

I think what you are looking for is THIS

Spoiler: Doll Golem

Show

Doll Golem
The doll golem is an animated version of a child's toy that can be put to either good uses (defending the young) or evil uses (attacking them). It is often crafted so as to make it appear bright and cheerful when at rest. Upon activation, however, its features become twisted and horrific.

Combat: The doll golem is, like all similar creatures, immune to almost all magical attacks. It can be harmed by fire-based spells, although these do only half damage, while a warp wood spell will affect the creature as if it were a slow spell. A mending spell restores the creature to full hit points at once.
Each round, the doll golem leaps onto a victim and attempts to bite it. Success inflicts 3d6 points of damage and forces the victim to save versus spells. Failure to save causes the victim to begin to laugh uncontrollably (as if under the influence of a Tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter spell) and become unable to perform any other action. The effects of the creature's bite are far worse, however. The victim begins to laugh on the round after the failed save. At this time, they take 1d4 points of damage from the muscle spasms imposed by the laughter. On following rounds, this increases to 2d4, then 3d4, and so on. The laughter stops when the character dies or receives a dispel magic. Following recovery, the victim suffers a penalty on all attack and saving throws of -1 per round that they were overcome with laughter (e.g., four rounds of uncontrolled laughter would equal a -4 penalty on attack/saving throws). This represents the weakness caused by the character's inability to breathe and is reduced by 1 point per subsequent turn until the character is fully recovered.

A golem can't be controlled by a player, especially an assassin. And it is much too powerful to be in players hands, even if it could be. It would have to be DM controlled, with the player character following it around for some reason. The PC would be insane if he thought he was actually controlling it, instead of vice versa.

Having such a creature as a permenent protector of your PC would be too much. I would want to make it so the party needs to kill it, eventually. Like, at first it seems to help them in fights, protecting the PC. But then, it starts going off at night and murdering random people for its own motives. It starts acting threatening to the other PCs who question the assassin about his "pet". knowing how powerful it is, they would need to sneak up on it and make sure they have appropriate magic weapons and spells ready, lead it into a trap.

But these things are all things only the DM and maybe the crazy assassin player knows ahead of time. Or maybe the assassin player only knows it has been with him since he was a child and attacks people that threaten him. The random murders causing complications for the party will be a fun surprise that the players will need to deal with, eventually leading them into conflict with the golem and possibly the crazy assassin as well, if they can't convince him his doll is a danger to them all.

[Mutazoia]

A golem can't be controlled by a player, especially an assassin. And it is much too powerful to be in players hands, even if it could be. It would have to be DM controlled, with the player character following it around for some reason. The PC would be insane if he thought he was actually controlling it, instead of vice versa.

Having such a creature as a permenent protector of your PC would be too much. I would want to make it so the party needs to kill it, eventually. Like, at first it seems to help them in fights, protecting the PC. But then, it starts going off at night and murdering random people for its own motives. It starts acting threatening to the other PCs who question the assassin about his "pet". knowing how powerful it is, they would need to sneak up on it and make sure they have appropriate magic weapons and spells ready, lead it into a trap.

But these things are all things only the DM and maybe the crazy assassin player knows ahead of time. Or maybe the assassin player only knows it has been with him since he was a child and attacks people that threaten him. The random murders causing complications for the party will be a fun surprise that the players will need to deal with, eventually leading them into conflict with the golem and possibly the crazy assassin as well, if they can't convince him his doll is a danger to them all.

Oh he would definitely need a nerfed version. And besides a golem will follow the orders of any person it's told to obey. He could have a custom golem made that requires him to wear a special ring to control it. This would take care of the control issue as well as forcing the player to sacrifice a "ring slot" just to have his killer doll.

[Digitalelf]

I think what you are looking for is THIS

I still think that the Carrionette would be a better fit than the Doll Golem. Though both would need to be heavily modified before I'd let a PC "have" one, and certainly NOT at 1st level (no matter how high level the rest of the party may be)...

[LibraryOgre]

An interesting option on the witch kit for wizards might be to combine the familiar and the magic item...

[Dominuce2112]

It sounds like the OP is trying to emulate the Batman villain Ventriloquist. Like many Batman villains, the Ventriloquist has a "comic-book" version of a mental illness: he suffers from dissociative identity disorder, which manifests as an alternative personality that manifests in a puppet, Scarface, who is the "criminal one": the Ventriloquist sees himself as an innocent victim, Scarface's lackey.

The concept would work much better in a superhero or horror game, rather than a fantasy one.

If this were for 3.5, I'd suggest a small Warforged as a cohort or something... But it's AD&D, where your options are considerably more limited.

(besides Batman, he could also be taking inspiration from the Anthony Hopkins movie Magic, or the Dr Who story Talons of Wei Chang).

A better comparison is the puppet jutsu from naruto.

Meh, if this was 3.5 the astal construct spell would work, and there are plenty of actual puppet masters homebrews out there.

[Dominuce2112]

The point is, you're asking for something the system just doesn't do. It's the same as if you asked to be a flying superhero type that can shoot beams from your eyes. You're in the wrong game for that. Unless your DM wants to create a new ability and rules just for you, what you're asking isn't possible in AD&D. A puppet with a knife could never deliver enough force to kill anyone. A magical creature with a knife is not something you get to control as a player. A knife with a face is not a puppet, but you could do that.

But the Jester class fits and was made viable.

[Digitalelf]

But the Jester class fits and was made viable.

The Jester Class from Dragon Magazine?

Despite the tendency of many DMs letting Players run those 1st edition classes from Dragon Magazine, they all were pretty much written to be NPCs only, and as such, were not balanced in the same way that the classes from the 1st Edition Player's Handbook were. So while it was intended to fit within the game, it was never intended to be viable as a PC class.

[Thrudd]

But the Jester class fits and was made viable.

The point is, you and your DM are going to have to do a lot of digging, homeruling and exception-making for you to make this character. It is not a thing doable in AD&D according to any official rules.