Mastering the Elements: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist

[N. Jolly]

Hey all, finally getting around to making my kineticist guide, started looking for suggestions on Paizo first, but I always do like to crosspost my guides over here so that everyone's able to check it out and offer advice.

...but everything changed when the fire nation attacked.

As always, any input is liked, the guide's obviously not finished yet, I've hit a snag since getting answers for things it's history's fasted endeavor, but I would like to keep getting people's opinions on things to make this the best guide that I can.

[Vhaidara]

For the multiclassing section, I'm currently running a geokineticist in pfs, and I'm considering dropping a level of fighter for the archetype that gets Endurance+Diehard. With the amount of Con that you run, Diehard can easily net 15+ extra HP,and you only need a standard to blast people. On top of that, it nets a little extra HP and an extra bab.

[N. Jolly]

For the multiclassing section, I'm currently running a geokineticist in pfs, and I'm considering dropping a level of fighter for the archetype that gets Endurance+Diehard. With the amount of Con that you run, Diehard can easily net 15+ extra HP,and you only need a standard to blast people. On top of that, it nets a little extra HP and an extra bab.

I wish this was viable, but the Burn section specifically states you can't avoid the negative conditions of burn, and word of god is that falling unconscious when your lethal/non lethal total hits lower than 0 is a negative condition of burn. Trust me, I thought this was amazing too, but it seems there was another feat that allowed you to ignore all negative conditions from burn, so they just went with a huge sweeping ban to stop all of those shenanigans.

[Vhaidara]

Damn. I wasn't even thinking of it as burn negation so much as just a really nice thing you could do on such a con focused class. I've made a decent career as a tank so far. 21hp and DR 2 goes a long way at level 2, especially together with a +8 fort save and +7 reflex (cloak of resistance).

Admittedly, I've dealt a total of 15 damage across 2 sessions, but that's because my dice hate me and refuse to roll 2 digits.

[Psyren]

If you open it to Comments then people can make suggested edits (which you can approve or reject) rather than only making suggestions in the various threads.

"Yet another tool in the war against blast" - was this meant to say "war against burn?"

It's good to see a guide for the class with a more measured tone.

[Vhaidara]

I also find it amusing that I've seen 2 kineticist guides pop up (which makes me happy, this class got me hyped and I personally love burn in theory, though I think they flubbed it a little), but I haven't seen any other OA guides.

Oh, and I think I can explain why Burn caps at 3+Con mod: It's to prevent people from disabling themselves for 8 hours. Technically, it's still possible, but only in a scenario where you have to roll, and even then you need to be level 6 and have rolled straight 1s for HP, and spent FCB on something else.But the idea was to make sure that you couldn't take so much burn that you were KOed, with 0 ability to recover, for 8 hours.

Now, I personally have no objection to that, however, Paizo has to worry about a bunch of people who are, frankly, whiny little children who don't think their decisions through and would cry foul of the designers when they did this by accident.

As a note, my Kineticist houserules include Full BAB, d12 HD, removal of the Burn/turn limit, removal of the burn cap, and 1 burn reduction/3 burn you've taken (blasts only)

[N. Jolly]

If you open it to Comments then people can make suggested edits (which you can approve or reject) rather than only making suggestions in the various threads.

"Yet another tool in the war against blast" - was this meant to say "war against burn?"

It's good to see a guide for the class with a more measured tone.

Yes, yes it was.

And I'm not opening it up to comments, that way lies madness. I've seen guides that do that, it wasn't good. I'd rather just read suggestions in thread, where I can respond to them as either 'yeah, that's a good idea' or 'dear god why?', since that's my general reaction to most.

I had this guide planned for a while now, and I don't see the class as horrible like some people do, it just needs some fine tuning, as well as a few tweaks I plan on writing about later.

[Psyren]

I'm actually fine with a burn cap but it just does not scale well. Even Rage and Bardic Performance, abilities which also expect you to be spending 1 per round, start at 4+modifier and then scale with your level form there - Burn should have done the same.

And I'm not opening it up to comments, that way lies madness. I've seen guides that do that, it wasn't good. I'd rather just read suggestions in thread, where I can respond to them as either 'yeah, that's a good idea' or 'dear god why?', since that's my general reaction to most.

You can always switch it back to View-only if it gets hairy, and I think the collaborative aspect is neat. My next guide (soon to be published) will give it a go.

[Kurald Galain]

I would be interested in seeing some damage calculations either in the guide or in the thread, to see how well a kineticist compares to a baseline barbarian or rogue (if going for kinetic blade + haste) or against a bard or oracle spamming Scorching Rays or Fireballs (if using elemental blasts).

[Extra Anchovies]

Seconding the suggestion to open comments on the document.

You’re also taking 1 point of nonlethal damage per point of burn you have per class level.

It's actually 1 point per character level.

As you level up, you gain the ability to take on more burn, but that hard limit of 3 + con mod will always be there to hold you back, strange how that never increases aside from con increases.

Not that strange, really. A cap of, for example, 5+Con would on average put you below half HP. A cap of 8+Con would let you knock yourself out from burn alone.

Metakineticist

Metakinesis, actually.

The fact that Internal Buffer requires a day of setup should give it a rating lower than green. Orange, probably. It's like if a cleric only got domain spell slots every other day.

Once you get a 2 for 1 or more trade on it

This is misleading; I had to go back and check my copy of OcA to make sure I hadn't missed something about the buffer counting double eventually. It should instead read "Once you can store 2 points of burn in it".

Force Ward should probably be blue. It starts out pretty good but as you level it gets really strong. A 12th-level Kineticist dropping four points of burn into it to max out Elemental Overflow gets back 30 of the 48 HP they spend, and after ten minutes' worth of regeneration you have more HP than you'd have if you didn't fill the buffer. Between that and the ability to turn hits into misses (which can negate some nasty on-hit debuffs), it's up there with Shroud of Water.

You don't give Kinetic Form enough credit. The reach increase goes a long way towards enabling AoO builds, because it lets them get at least some reach before 8th level, at which point burnless kinetic whip + kinetic form is a 20 foot reach. Add Lunge onto that and you get a reach of 30 feet, which means you'll probably be able to use all of your AoOs each turn.

You should mention Parting Blast, just to let people know that it's a trap.

I also find it amusing that I've seen 2 kineticist guides pop up (which makes me happy, this class got me hyped and I personally love burn in theory, though I think they flubbed it a little), but I haven't seen any other OA guides.

Yeah, Kineticist has been the primary focus of discussion both in playtest and after release. It's got some major design flaws but they're easily worked around.

I've been thinking about writing up an Occultist guide, but it would take some time and I've been busy lately. Might put it together over the next few weeks.

[N. Jolly]

You can always switch it back to View-only if it gets hairy, and I think the collaborative aspect is neat. My next guide (soon to be published) will give it a go.

I haven't seen anyone have great luck with that, as while it might sound elitist, you see bad ideas being suggested far more often than good (my other thread still has someone trying to convince me of the merit of Overwhelming Soul), which leads me to think it wouldn't be great. Let me know how it works with your guide though, and if it's aces for you, I'll give it a go.

I would be interested in seeing some damage calculations either in the guide or in the thread, to see how well a kineticist compares to a baseline barbarian or rogue (if going for kinetic blade + haste) or against a bard or oracle spamming Scorching Rays or Fireballs (if using elemental blasts).

I'd rather keep those in the thread myself, calcs go into hard numbers which require full assumed builds, and that's not something I'd like to include myself. I think the paizo thread has some damage calcs (I know my gunslinger thread is blowing up with numbers), but if anyone wants to run numbers on a reasonably optimized (not top line conductive monster), I'd change anything I have that was proven wrong by such calcs, since I want to have the most accurate guide possible.

This is misleading; I had to go back and check my copy of OcA to make sure I hadn't missed something about the buffer counting double eventually. It should instead read "Once you can store 2 points of burn in it".

Force Ward should probably be blue. It starts out pretty good but as you level it gets really strong. A 12th-level Kineticist dropping four points of burn into it to max out Elemental Overflow gets back 30 of the 48 HP they spend, and after ten minutes' worth of regeneration you have more HP than you'd have if you didn't fill the buffer. Between that and the ability to turn hits into misses (which can negate some nasty on-hit debuffs), it's up there with Shroud of Water.

You don't give Kinetic Form enough credit. The reach increase goes a long way towards enabling AoO builds, because it lets them get at least some reach before 8th level, at which point burnless kinetic whip + kinetic form is a 20 foot reach. Add Lunge onto that and you get a reach of 30 feet, which means you'll probably be able to use all of your AoOs each turn.

You should mention Parting Blast, just to let people know that it's a trap.

First part is changed.

Force Shield is nice, but it requires burn to truly shine, which is what's keeping it from blue to me. Earth's defense is straight up Invul Rager barb DR (rarely do opponents use adamantine weapons), which to me is top shelf. I might change it to purple just because, which would make me feel the need to up force shield to blue just to show that it can be good.

As for kinetic form, it's a problem of HUGE doesn't come online that quickly, especially for how long it takes to get it initially. As green, it's still a good option, but I don't find it as mandatory for the melee (or even whip) kineticist.

I could, I just hate mentioning any of those feats, like they're all what feels like obvious trash, burning yourself for a final screw you seems so needless and spiteful.

[Tulya]

I don't think their point was that "Force Ward is good on its own merits", but that "Force Ward is good because the combat math that went into balancing the class assumes you have the benefit of Elemental Overflow, and Force Ward is a burn outlet which mitigates most or all the effects of burn with upside."

Compared to your Kineticist peers who invest burn for Overflow bonuses, you always have 1 + 0.5 * burn more HP per level, which caps out at +4.5 HP/level more at 16th level with 7 points of burn invested.
Compared to Kineticists who never accept a single point of burn, you still always have at least 0.5 more HP per level; this occurs because of the rare size bonus to Constitution they miss out on.

The only drawback to this approach is that once you've accepted enough burn to max out your Overflow bonuses, further burn is pure downside. However, this choice is nothing unique to the Telekineticist.

[Extra Anchovies]

I don't think their point was that "Force Ward is good on its own merits", but that "Force Ward is good because the combat math that went into balancing the class assumes you have the benefit of Elemental Overflow, and Force Ward is a burn outlet which mitigates most or all the effects of burn with upside."

Compared to your Kineticist peers who invest burn for Overflow bonuses, you always have 1 + 0.5 * burn more HP per level, which caps out at +4.5 HP/level more at 16th level with 7 points of burn invested.
Compared to Kineticists who never accept a single point of burn, you still always have at least 0.5 more HP per level; this occurs because of the rare size bonus to Constitution they miss out on.

The only drawback to this approach is that once you've accepted enough burn to max out your Overflow bonuses, further burn is pure downside. However, this choice is nothing unique to the Telekineticist.

Pretty much that, yeah. IMO the best build is one that can fill up Elemental Overflow at the start of the day and get by without spending any more burn. So far it looks like the simplest way to achieve that is a geokineticist who expands into aether, picks up Expanded Defense, and builds for AoOs with Kinetic Form + Kinetic Whip + Combat Reflexes.

Also, I did some quick math, and a Dex-focused kineticist can definitely afford to use Deadly Aim/Piranha Strike/whatever with physical blasts, which is pretty nice. It requires you to fill up Elemental Overflow, which would make you pretty squishy unless you do so by boosting Force Ward. "Enemy AC" uses the standard combatant array from Pathfinder Unchained, and I assumed a starting Dex of 18 with all level-based increases into Dex, +2/4/6 Dex items at levels 7/12/16 (as per Automatic Bonus Progression), and a +1 tome at 15th level or so.

[Tulya]

Force Ward also opens up the option of truly maxing out burn with minimal drawback, though current benefits are a little lackluster. Elemental Overflow's Fortification bonus and Air/Cold/Heat Adaptation's energy resistance are the only effects that scale indefinitely with current burn.

Essentially, you trade up to 4 extra HP/level for benefits that scale up to Heavy Fortification and Greater Energy Resistance in up to 3 energy types. For maximum benefits, you'd need to have Aether, Air, and either Fire or Water.
Notably, your HP is likely to end up equal to or slightly better than most d10 classes because of the size bonuses and greater Con investment.

My first impression is that even factoring in the extra healing between encounters from maxing Force Ward, this is probably not a good trade - but, it's not a bad trade either.

Edit:
If you can get an obscure source of +2 to Con, like the profane bonus from a Succubus, you can actually hit 20 burn at 20th level.
Depending on how rules are adjudicated, 100% fortification could mean crit immunity, and thus complete immunity to coup de grace attacks. That would mean enemies would have to burn through a 444 HP buffer after you fall unconscious before you die.

[Extra Anchovies]

Would a kineticist be able to TWF with kinetic blade and kinetic whip? I'm going to give the Kinetic Whip + Kinetic Form AoO kineticist a try in my next game (until level 8 I'll get by on simple blasts and empowered blasts), and am going for as many attacks as possible.

If you can get an obscure source of +2 to Con, like the profane bonus from a Succubus, you can actually hit 20 burn at 20th level.
Depending on how rules are adjudicated, 100% fortification could mean crit immunity, and thus complete immunity to coup de grace attacks. That would mean enemies would have to burn through a 444 HP buffer after you fall unconscious before you die.

100% fortification does make you ignore every critical hit that you receive, but it doesn't actually give you immunity to critical hits - which is good, because it lets you ignore things that ignore immunity to critical hits.

[Tulya]

Would a kineticist be able to TWF with kinetic blade and kinetic whip? I'm going to give the Kinetic Whip + Kinetic Form AoO kineticist a try in my next game (until level 8 I'll get by on simple blasts and empowered blasts), and am going for as many attacks as possible.

I think you could make a pretty solid case for using them together under RAW, since although Kinetic Whip 'functions as Kinetic Blade', it isn't Kinetic Blade. You're not using the Kinetic Blade form infusion when you're using the Kinetic Whip form infusion, and so Kinetic Whip shouldn't block your one free use of Kinetic Blade as a part of an attack action.
If it were ever adjudicated under FAQ, I doubt that interpretation would be upheld.

[N. Jolly]

I think you could make a pretty solid case for using them together under RAW, since although Kinetic Whip 'functions as Kinetic Blade', it isn't Kinetic Blade. You're not using the Kinetic Blade form infusion when you're using the Kinetic Whip form infusion, and so Kinetic Whip shouldn't block your one free use of Kinetic Blade as a part of an attack action.
If it were ever adjudicated under FAQ, I doubt that interpretation would be upheld.

This could work if you could apply two form infusions to a single blast, but according to the text...

Each time the kineticist uses one of her kinetic blast wild talents, she can apply up to one associated form infusion and up to one associated substance infusion.

Sadly that makes this impossible, although it would be cool. Let me know if I'm misinterpreting what you're attempting to do here.

[Tulya]

This could work if you could apply two form infusions to a single blast, but according to the text... Sadly that makes this impossible, although it would be cool. Let me know if I'm misinterpreting what you're attempting to do here.

They're separate blasts for this usage. You announce a full-attack action, and as part of that full-attack, blast once as a non-action with Kinetic Whip, and blast once as a non-action with Kinetic Blade. You now have two blast weapons with which to make a full-attack, so you benefit from two-weapon fighting.

The reason it's rules questionable is that Kinetic Blade limits you to using the infusion once per attack action, and Kinetic Whip inherits that restriction because it functions as Kinetic Blade except as indicated.
From the strict RAW perspective, you don't violate the rules by using each form infusion as a separate blast in your attack because they're distinct form infusions, and they each only restrict you to using 'this' form infusion once per attack.
But it also seems fairly likely that the intention was not to allow two-weapon fighting with multiple kinetic weapons.

[N. Jolly]

They're separate blasts for this usage. You announce a full-attack action, and as part of that full-attack, blast once as a non-action with Kinetic Whip, and blast once as a non-action with Kinetic Blade. You now have two blast weapons with which to make a full-attack, so you benefit from two-weapon fighting.

The reason it's rules questionable is that Kinetic Blade limits you to using the infusion once per attack action, and Kinetic Whip inherits that restriction because it functions as Kinetic Blade except as indicated.
From the strict RAW perspective, you don't violate the rules by using each form infusion as a separate blast in your attack because they're distinct form infusions, and they each only restrict you to using 'this' form infusion once per attack.
But it also seems fairly likely that the intention was not to allow two-weapon fighting with multiple kinetic weapons.

Okay, now I see what you're talking about, and yeah, RAW that does seem like it'd work, although wow is that a jerk move. So let me get this straight, in order of actions.

1. Declare full attack.
2. Create Kinetic Blade (as per its 'you can use this once during a full attack function'
3. Create Kinetic Whip (as per the same language)
4. Full TWF.

Am I getting that right? Yeah wow, that's...that's nasty. I feel like it'd fail under the 'create once during a full attack', considering them as the same ability for that line though.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, now I see what you're talking about, and yeah, RAW that does seem like it'd work, although wow is that a jerk move.

I'd argue that by RAW it doesn't work, first because K Blast specifies that you never count as wielding the blast whereas TWF requires you to wield two weapons; second because Infusion specifies that you can't use two form infusions at the same time.

$.02

[Tulya]

I'd argue that by RAW it doesn't work, first because K Blast specifies that you never count as wielding the blast whereas TWF requires you to wield two weapons; second because Infusion specifies that you can't use two form infusions at the same time.

$.02

Unlike other blasts, the Kinetic Weapons are explicitly weapons created in your hand. I don't think the rules text within the blasts are sufficient to enable them to function as intended without the implicit understanding that they're being wielded.
As to the second point, I don't recall seeing any such text beyond what was already posted - that each kinetic blast wild talent can only have up to 1 form infusion and 1 substance infusion.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I think you're over estimating Elemental Annihilator. Giving up all of your Utility Wild Talents makes your character effectively a martial with a neat weapon and lower damage. Damage potential is also going to be lower than other martial classes on the whole, due to lack of enchantments or other class features.

This is especially bad at levels 1 & 2 as you don't qualify for Weapon Focus or Power Attack, so you're going to be behind on both accuracy and damage. At level 3 you can finally have either Power Attack or Piranha Strike and you get your Elemental Overflow accuracy so you're slight better off, but the normal martials now have a Masterwork weapon and will soon have their first +1. They may have other class features that boost their damage too, while for some reason you give up yours.

You're also in a weird spot where you can't TWF until level 6, but start picking up the feats for it at level 2. This means you probably want a Two-Handed blast at early levels, but you can't Finesse one of those so you have to invest in Strength? But you don't get heavy armor so your AC will be terrible or you have to go really MAD.

Sorry, but I just think this archetype is bad for too many levels to be worth taking. It could be fixed, say by actually giving you full BAB or letting you count your BAB as your class level for feats. Alternatively, if you could use energy blasts and got your elemental overflow damage you could make a passable (though MAD) switch hitter.

[Draco_Lord]

I am just curious, but can you explain why Merfolk need strong tail to work? At least if you are going with Aether, Air, or Fire? It just means for 5 levels you aren't going to be moving much, but by 6th you'll have an other, constant, way of moving.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I am just curious, but can you explain why Merfolk need strong tail to work? At least if you are going with Aether, Air, or Fire? It just means for 5 levels you aren't going to be moving much, but by 6th you'll have an other, constant, way of moving.

Technically you don't, but a 5ft move speed is a pretty significant handicap for 5 full levels. That's going to be 1/3 of an average game.

[N. Jolly]

I think you're over estimating Elemental Annihilator. Giving up all of your Utility Wild Talents makes your character effectively a martial with a neat weapon and lower damage. Damage potential is also going to be lower than other martial classes on the whole, due to lack of enchantments or other class features.

This is especially bad at levels 1 & 2 as you don't qualify for Weapon Focus or Power Attack, so you're going to be behind on both accuracy and damage. At level 3 you can finally have either Power Attack or Piranha Strike and you get your Elemental Overflow accuracy so you're slight better off, but the normal martials now have a Masterwork weapon and will soon have their first +1. They may have other class features that boost their damage too, while for some reason you give up yours.

You're also in a weird spot where you can't TWF until level 6, but start picking up the feats for it at level 2. This means you probably want a Two-Handed blast at early levels, but you can't Finesse one of those so you have to invest in Strength? But you don't get heavy armor so your AC will be terrible or you have to go really MAD.

Sorry, but I just think this archetype is bad for too many levels to be worth taking. It could be fixed, say by actually giving you full BAB or letting you count your BAB as your class level for feats. Alternatively, if you could use energy blasts and got your elemental overflow damage you could make a passable (though MAD) switch hitter.

I still think the damage potential of it overall is worth it, despite the problems. It's a low green I'll admit, but I'm not using a system that has such exacting measurements, since especially for me, my games are in the 3-15 range, which makes the level 1-2 hurdles not as bad. I mentioned that you're basically a martial with it already, but you do have more varied options for fighting than most martials (who have very, VERY little), but I think that versatility is enough to make this archetype viable. I'm assuming a strength build here anyways since you're going to be two handing for the damage bonus and power attack, and depending on your elemental defense (mithril breastplate + a few traits bring it down to 0 ACP), your defenses will be fine.

I am just curious, but can you explain why Merfolk need strong tail to work? At least if you are going with Aether, Air, or Fire? It just means for 5 levels you aren't going to be moving much, but by 6th you'll have an other, constant, way of moving.

Air's the only one that as an immediate allows this to really work, since self TK/flame jet requires a standard action to use and move with, meaning that you need to have greater self tk/flame jet, which takes even longer to get active. There's too long in most people's games where you're going to have a movement speed of 5 in a non aquatic game to make it viable, and really, does dropping your swim speed really hurt that much?

[dascarletm]

I just want to thank you for the guide. I am currently playing an earth kineticist, and I found the guide most helpful in it's reorganization of all the wild talents. It has been a large help.

[Tulya]

Notably, the Elemental Annihilator may be able to form a light weapon to benefit from Weapon Finesse, and also wield the weapon in two-hands for 1.5 x Con.
[Edit: Completely rewritten argument below.]

Devastating Infusion is merely a form infusion which modifies the function of your Kinetic Blast talent - you're still using the ability. This has some interesting rules implications because effects like Kinetic Blast don't calculate damage the same way most weapons do. For example, size changes should not alter the damage of a Devastating Blast any more than it does the Kinetic Blade talent it's explicitly based upon.

More pertinent to our fiendish purposes, the damage calculations wholly replace the calculations of your normal blast damage. As with Kinetic Blade, your Strength modifier is simply not factor in determining the damage, while your Constitution modifier is. This is in direct contrast similar effects where an explicit replacement/substitution occurs, implying inheritance of the original modifier's properties.

Thus, the general rule for Strength modifiers (a light weapon wielded in two hands does not gain the bonus damage) has no relevance to the specific rule (you get +1.5x Con modifier to your Devastating Infusion blasts if you wield them as a melee weapon in two hands) because the Constitution modifier to damage neither is, nor ever was, a Strength modifier.


*Nothing prevents you from either finessing a two-handed weapon (ex: Spiked Chain), nor wielding a light weapon in two hands. (Which is why there's a rule that you don't get the bonus damage when you do.)

**Kinetic Fist is not a counterexample to the above because it is nothing more than a damage buff based on blast damage dice applied to unarmed and natural attacks.

[Vhaidara]

I just thought of something. How would it effect the Kineticist's DPR if the +Con mod or +1/2 Con mod was added per die instead of just once?

[NightbringerGGZ]

I just thought of something. How would it effect the Kineticist's DPR if the +Con mod or +1/2 Con mod was added per die instead of just once?

It would go up significantly and would eventually outpace other damage dealing builds.

[N. Jolly]

Traits and other such things are up, multiclassing is bare since I really don't much like the idea of it for this class especially with how little it needs feats, the main reason for multiclassing with a more martial minded class.

Really aside from magical gear and sample builds, this thing is about done, which is nice to say.