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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (Complete!)

    The Spellthief

    HD: d4
    Alignment: Any Non-Lawful

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Arcane Legerdemain, Sneak Attack +1d6, Steal Spells 3 1 — — — — — — — —
    2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Cloaked Casting (+2), Vatic Gaze 4 2 — — — — — — — —
    3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Mug, Spellgrace 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
    4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Silent Spell 4 3 2 — — — — — — —
    5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Discover Spells, Sneak Attack +2d6 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
    6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Thirst of Greed 4 3 3 2 — — — — — —
    7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Still Spell 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
    8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Cloaked Casting (no SR) 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
    9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Sneak Attack +3d6 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
    10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Invisible Spell 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — —
    11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Greater Legerdemain 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — —
    12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Spelljack 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — —
    13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Sneak Attack +4d6 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — —
    14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Cloaked Casting (+4) 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — —
    15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Steal Supernatural Ability 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
    16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Breaking and Entering 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
    17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Sneak Attack +5d6 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
    18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Ever-Ready Egress 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
    19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Steal Extraordinary Ability 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
    20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Cloaked Casting (no Saves) 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

    Spoiler: Spells Known
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    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st 2 1 — — — — — — — —
    2nd 3 1 — — — — — — — —
    3rd 3 2 — — — — — — — —
    4th 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
    5th 4 3 1 — — — — — — —
    6th 5 3 2 1 — — — — — —
    7th 5 4 2 1 — — — — — —
    8th 6 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
    9th 6 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
    10th 7 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
    11th 7 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
    12th 8 4 4 3 3 2 1 — — —
    13th 8 4 4 3 3 2 1 — — —
    14th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 — —
    15th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 — —
    16th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 —
    17th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 —
    18th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1
    19th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 2
    20th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 2


    Class Skills (6 + Int per level): Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana; Int), Knowledge (Local; Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (N/A), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    You are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, and short sword. You can cast spellthief spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, if you wear medium or heavy armor or use a shield you incur a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A multiclass spellthief still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

    Spells
    Work-in-progress. Sorcerer number of spells known from the Abjuration, Divination, Illusion and Enchantment spells off the wiz/sorc list, prepared like a wizard, Int-based save DCs.

    Arcane Legerdemain (Sp): You may cast Mage Hand at-will as a spell-like ability. You may move the Mage Hand with a swift action and can use it to perform delicate acts of manual dexterity such as the Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand skills. You may also deliver a "punch" effect with your Mage Hand as a standard action that deals 1d2 nonlethal damage on a successful ranged touch attack.

    Sneak Attack (Ex): If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every four spellthief levels thereafter. Should you score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Your attack deals extra damage any time your target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when you flank your target.

    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, you can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. You cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

    You can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. You must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. You cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond your reach.

    Steal Spells (Su): You may treat spells as though they were valuables like any other, stealing them for your own use and benefit. You may only steal spells of spell levels for which you have spell slots. This ability works in one of three ways:

    • With a Sleight of Hand check you can steal an active spell effect. Stealing an active spell effect requires a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 15 + the caster level of the source of the spell effect. If you succeed at stealing an active spell effect you take the effect from another creature, object, or area and apply it to yourself (if applicable) for the remaining duration. At the end of that effect's duration you may make a caster level check against a DC of 10 + the caster level of the source of the spell effect. If this check succeeds you add the spell to your list of spells known.

    • With a Sleight of Hand check you can steal knowledge of a spell and add it to your spells known. Stealing knowledge of a spell requires a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 20 + caster level of the spellcaster whose spell knowledge you are trying to steal. If you succeed at stealing knowledge of a spell you add that spell to your list of spells known and remove it from your victim's list of spells known. Trying to steal knowledge of a spell from a creature that the creature does not know automatically fails. If your victim is asleep or unconscious the DC is reduced to 10 + its caster level.

    • You may ransack the minds of dead creatures seeking spells to add to your spell list. If you can make contact with a corpse within 1 round of its demise, you add any spells that creature knows, or possesses as spell-like abilities, that you have spell slots for, to your list of spells known. If you make contact within 10 minutes, but after 1 round has passed, you add half those spells, randomly determined, to your spell list. After that, the corpse's mind has deteriorated too much to be of any use to you.

    Cloaked Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, your spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. When you cast a spell against a creature that is denied it's Dexterity bonus to AC (whether it has a bonus or not), you gain a +2 bonus to the spell's save DC.

    Beginning at 8th level, you ignore Spell Resistance against such creatures.

    At 14th level, the bonus to save DCs increases to +4.

    At 20th level, such creatures do not receive a saving throw against your spells.

    Vatic Gaze: At 2nd level you gain the Vatic Gaze feat as a bonus feat. When you use this feat to determine an opponent's spellcasting ability you do learn if it has any spell-like abilities (you do not learn what they are) and you learn what caster level it uses for them if it does.

    Mug (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, as a swift action after a successful attack against a creature you may use Sleight of Hand to steal something from that creature. The creature must be within your reach or adjacent to your Mage Hand for you to do so. If your attack was a sneak attack, you gain a +5 insight bonus to your Sleight of Hand check. This insight bonus increases to +10 at 9th level and +15 at 15th level.

    Spellgrace (Su): From 3rd level on you add your Intelligence modifier to all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. If a spell or spell-like ability would deal half damage or subject you to a lesser effect on a successful save, you instead suffer no damage or effects on a successful save.

    Metamagic Feats: At 4th level you gain the Silent Spell feat, At 7th, the Still Spell feat, and at 10th you gain the Invisible Spell feat, each as bonus feats. If you already have the feat in question, then you may take any other feat you qualify for.

    Discover Spells (Sp): Starting at 5th level, you can cast Arcane Sight at-will as a spell-like ability. When using your Vatic Gaze feat to determine an opponent's spellcasting ability you determine exactly what spells that creature knows of every spell level for which you have spell slots. If that creature has any spell-like abilities, you now learn what they are and how often the creature can use them.

    Thirst of Greed (Sp): Starting at 6th level you can cast Vampiric Touch at-will as a spell-like ability.

    Greater Legerdemain (Ex): At 11th level you may use your Mage Hand to deliver touch spells and may direct it to perform other tasks as a swift action.

    Spelljack (Su): Starting at 12th level, you may wrest control of spells and spell-like abilities from your opponents even as they cast them. As an immediate action make a Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 40 + the caster level of the spellcaster whose spell you are attempting to jack. If you succeed, then the spell remains cast except you control all aspects of its casting such as aiming, targets, and other aspects of the spell which require caster input. For example, if the spell you jacked was a summoning or calling spell, you give commands to the summoned or called creature. If the spell requires concentration to maintain, you make those checks for the spell. The spell is treated for all intents and purposes as if you had cast it.

    To use Spelljack you (or your Mage Hand) must be within 30ft of the spellcaster whose spell you attempt to jack, and you must be able to see and hear the casting of the spell. Each time beyond the first that you use this ability against the same spellcaster within 24 hours increases the DC by 10.

    Steal Supernatural Ability (Su): By 15th level, you have mastered the art of stealing spells, now onto other magical powers! With a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 40 + CR of the creature whose supernatural ability you want to steal, you may take an active supernatural effect from the creature, object, or area it is currently affecting and apply it to yourself (if applicable) for the remaining duration. With a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 60 + CR of the creature whose supernatural ability you want to steal, you may take the ability, wholesale, from the creature and gain it for yourself. Your victim permanently loses the ability and you permanently gain it. You cannot have a number greater than half your Intelligence modifier (rounded down) in supernatural abilities stolen in this way. If you steal a new supernatural ability, but you have already reached this limit, you may elect to lose one of your stolen supernatural (or extraordinary, see below) abilities to gain the new one.

    Breaking and Entering (Su): Starting at 16th level, you benefit from the constant effects of the Freedom of Movement spell. Additionally, if a spell or effect would normally prevent you from moving or teleporting into a place you may make a caster level check opposed by the caster level of the effect. If you succeed, you are not subject to any limitations of that effect.

    Ever-Ready Egress (Sp): Starting at 18th level, you may cast Dimension Door at-will as a spell-like ability. A number of times per day equal to half your Dexterity modifier, rounded down, you may cast Dimension Door as an immediate action. If a spell or effect would normally prevent you from moving or teleporting out of a place, you may make a caster level check opposed by the caster level of the effect. If you succeed, you are not subject to any limitations of that effect.

    Steal Extraordinary Ability (Ex): By 19th level, you have mastered the art of stealing magic entirely. You have decided to put your ludicrous, larcenous talents to use stealing the very nature and expertise of other creatures. With a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 80 + CR of the creature whose extraordinary ability you want to steal, you may take the ability, wholesale, from the creature and gain it for yourself. Your victim permanently loses the ability and you permanently gain it. Any extraordinary abilities you steal count toward your limit of stolen supernatural abilities, and if you have already reached the limit when you steal a new extraordinary ability you can, like stealing a new supernatural ability, choose to lose one of your stolen extraordinary or supernatural abilities to gain the new one.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2018-05-08 at 04:16 PM.
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    Special Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Sneak Attack (Ex): If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every four spellthief levels thereafter. Should you score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Your attack deals extra damage any time your target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when you flank your target.

    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, you can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. You cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

    You can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. You must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. You cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond your reach.
    Just a thought for improving the relevance of precision damage, shamelessly stolen from Jiriku: what would you say to making the sneak attack progression apply to all creature types other than oozes and those with the swarm subtype (and/or any other creature that lacks any structures to exploit).

    It always struck me as odd that, despite the conventional wisdom of shooting zombies in the head for improved damage, doing so is impossible in D&D, even for classes whose whole shtick is precision damage. It just seems that immunity to precision damage is granted by baseline D&D at too cheap of a price, which devalues precision damage abilities for any class that gains them.

    Perhaps you could tax it to some degree, requiring a certain amount of skill points (or just passing skill checks made once per creature in an encounter?) with the relevant skills that let you identify a given creature type? I dunno, it's just an idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Steal Spells (Ex): You may treat spells as though they were valuables like any other, stealing them for your own use and benefit. You may only steal spells of spell levels for which you have spell slots. This ability works in one of three ways:

    • With a Sleight of Hand check you can steal an active spell effect. Stealing an active spell effect requires a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 15 + the caster level of the source of the spell effect. If you succeed at stealing an active spell effect you take the effect from another creature, object, or area and apply it to yourself (if applicable) for the remaining duration.

    • With a Sleight of Hand check you can steal knowledge of a spell and add it to your spells known. Stealing knowledge of a spell requires a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 20 + caster level of the spellcaster whose spell knowledge you are trying to steal. If you succeed at stealing knowledge of a spell you add that spell to your list of spells known and remove it from your victim's list of spells known. Trying to steal knowledge of a spell from a creature that the creature does not know automatically fails. If your victim is asleep or unconscious the DC is reduced to 10 + its caster level.

    • You may ransack the minds of dead creatures seeking spells to add to your spell list. If you can make contact with a corpse within 1 round of its demise, you add any spells that creature knows, or possesses as spell-like abilities, that you have spell slots for, to your list of spells known. If you make contact within 10 minutes, but after 1 round has passed, you add half those spells, randomly determined, to your spell list. After that, the corpse's mind has deteriorated too much to be of any use to you.
    I really like this. I bolded the one thing I might wish to change, though: Permanently removing other characters' class features (with no reversibility clause included, either ) raises some big red flags, to me.

    For learning-based casters, like the Wizard, it isn't so bad. It hurts, but it can be undone with relative ease.

    For a Sorcerer, who at any given time only really has 1 or 2 Spells Known of their highest Spell Level, though? Removing that in a non-interactive way can outright destroy a character, in a way that they have no tools to resolve. Perhaps have the removal of the Spells Known from the target be temporary, or reversible in some fashion, at least for those who cannot freely expand their list.

    But irrevocably destroying a limited character resource that is written without the expectation that the resource will ever be damaged and need repair? That's bad juju, that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
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    The Spellthief

    HD: d4
    Alignment: Any Non-Lawful

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Arcane Legerdemain, Sneak Attack +1d6, Steal Spells 5 3 — — — — — — — —
    2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Cloaked Casting (+2), Vatic Gaze 6 4 — — — — — — — —
    3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Mug, Spellgrace 6 5 — — — — — — — —
    4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Silent Spell 6 6 3 — — — — — — —
    5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Discover Spells, Sneak Attack +2d6 6 6 4 — — — — — — —
    6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Thirst of Greed 6 6 5 3 — — — — — —
    7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Still Spell 6 6 6 4 — — — — — —
    8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Cloaked Casting (no SR) 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — —
    9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Sneak Attack +3d6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — —
    10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Invisible Spell 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — —
    11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Swift Legerdemain 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — —
    12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Spelljack 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — —
    13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Sneak Attack +4d6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — —
    14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Cloaked Casting (+4) 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — —
    15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — —
    16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 —
    17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Sneak Attack +5d6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 —
    18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Cloaked Casting (no Saves) 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

    Spoiler: Spells Known
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    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st 4 2 — — — — — — — —
    2nd 5 2 — — — — — — — —
    3rd 5 3 — — — — — — — —
    4th 6 3 1 — — — — — — —
    5th 6 4 2 — — — — — — —
    6th 7 4 2 1 — — — — — —
    7th 7 5 3 2 — — — — — —
    8th 8 5 3 2 1 — — — — —
    9th 8 5 4 3 2 — — — — —
    10th 9 5 4 3 2 1 — — — —
    11th 9 5 5 4 3 2 — — — —
    12th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 — — —
    13th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 — — —
    14th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 — —
    15th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 — —
    16th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
    17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
    18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1
    19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2
    20th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3


    Class Skills (6 + Int per level): Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana; Int), Knowledge (Local; Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Speak Language (N/A), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    You are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. You are proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). You can cast spellthief spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, if you wear medium or heavy armor or use a shield you incur a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A multiclass spellthief still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

    Spells
    Work-in-progress. Sorcerer number of spells known from the Illusion and Enchantment spells off the wiz/sorc list, prepared like a wizard, Int-based save DCs.

    Arcane Legerdemain (Sp): You may cast Mage Hand at-will as a spell-like ability. You may move the Mage Hand with a swift action and can use it to perform delicate acts of manual dexterity such as the Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand skills. You may also deliver a "punch" effect with your Mage Hand as a standard action that deals 1d2 nonlethal damage on a successful ranged touch attack.

    Cloaked Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, your spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. When you cast a spell against a creature that is denied it's Dexterity bonus to AC (whether it has a bonus or not), you gain a +2 bonus to the spell's save DC.

    Beginning at 8th level, you ignore Spell Resistance against such creatures.

    At 14th level, the bonus to save DCs increases to +4.

    At 20th level, such creatures do not receive a saving throw against your spells.

    Vatic Gaze: At 2nd level you gain the Vatic Gaze feat as a bonus feat.

    Mug (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, as a swift action after successfully Sneak Attacking a creature you may use Sleight of Hand to steal something from that creature. The creature must be within your reach or adjacent to your Mage Hand for you to do so.

    Spellgrace (Ex): From 3rd level on you add your Intelligence modifier to all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. If a spell or spell-like ability would deal half damage or subject you to a lesser effect on a successful save, you instead suffer no damage or effects on a successful save.

    Thirst of Greed (Sp): Starting at 6th level you can cast Vampiric Touch at-will as a spell-like ability.

    More to come. Stay tuned...
    And I love every single bit of the rest of this. It is great. Keep up the fantastic work!
    Last edited by Qoios; 2015-08-28 at 03:46 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Adam1949's Avatar

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    I agree with the sentiment about being able to have Super Sneak Attack (tm) able to harm elementals, plants, undead, etc. It just works to have this version of the Spellthief be able to stab a Lich and then steal his magical secrets. Take THAT, Vecna!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    "With a Sleight of Hand check you can steal knowledge of a spell and add it to your spells known. Stealing knowledge of a spell requires a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 20 + caster level of the spellcaster whose spell knowledge you are trying to steal. If you succeed at stealing knowledge of a spell you add that spell to your list of spells known and remove it from your victim's list of spells known. Trying to steal knowledge of a spell from a creature that the creature does not know automatically fails. If your victim is asleep or unconscious the DC is reduced to 10 + its caster level."
    Does this works with a wizard stealing spells from his extremely distant spellbook he does not carry and which is in a dead magic pocket dimension?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    "With a Sleight of Hand check you can steal knowledge of a spell and add it to your spells known. Stealing knowledge of a spell requires a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 20 + caster level of the spellcaster whose spell knowledge you are trying to steal. If you succeed at stealing knowledge of a spell you add that spell to your list of spells known and remove it from your victim's list of spells known. Trying to steal knowledge of a spell from a creature that the creature does not know automatically fails. If your victim is asleep or unconscious the DC is reduced to 10 + its caster level."
    Does this works with a wizard stealing spells from his extremely distant spellbook he does not carry and which is in a dead magic pocket dimension?
    Why would a Sleight of Hand check care about dead magic?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    "Why would a Sleight of Hand check care about dead magic? "
    It probably does not but being near a wizard does not makes you able to know where is his spellbook and to access other planes with your Sleight of Hand(you can grab everything which is on the same plane as you but you can not grab things on other planes)

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Might want to actually add the Sleight of Hand as class skill. Yup, the actual 3.5 class doesn't have SoH for some reason.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    "Why would a Sleight of Hand check care about dead magic? "
    It probably does not but being near a wizard does not makes you able to know where is his spellbook and to access other planes with your Sleight of Hand(you can grab everything which is on the same plane as you but you can not grab things on other planes)
    Non-blue answer because you seem to actually care:

    When a Wizard prepares spells, s/he casts 99% of the spell, leaving off only the final word(s) and gestures to be completed later. That means there's some kind of a link between the spellbook (where 99% of the spell resides) and the Wizard (where the 1% ready-to-cast resides).

    What the Spellthief does is steal the 1% and use the link to pull the 99% out of wherever-it-is.

    Being on a dead magic plane is only relevant to the Spellthief if it's relevant to the Wizard -- if it's sufficient to break the link which would allow the Wizard to cast a prepared spell, then I think it would also be sufficient to block the Spellthief. But I know of no such link-blocking on the spellbook end. Only blockage on the Wizard's end (i.e. the Wizard being in an anti-magic field).

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Just a thought for improving the relevance of precision damage, shamelessly stolen from Jiriku: what would you say to making the sneak attack progression apply to all creature types other than oozes and those with the swarm subtype (and/or any other creature that lacks any structures to exploit).
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1949 View Post
    I agree with the sentiment about being able to have Super Sneak Attack (tm) able to harm elementals, plants, undead, etc. It just works to have this version of the Spellthief be able to stab a Lich and then steal his magical secrets. Take THAT, Vecna!
    You may feel free to allow the Tier 1 Spellthief any improvements to its Sneak Attack that you would normally allow a Rogue in your games. I didn't include any upgrades to the feature in this write up for the sake of keeping things simple, but I also allow Rogues in my games a lot more liberty with anatomy, concealment, and distance when making Sneak Attacks, so I certainly understand the concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Might want to actually add the Sleight of Hand as class skill. Yup, the actual 3.5 class doesn't have SoH for some reason.
    Pfft. I am the noob.

    EDIT: Is Spelljack too strong, or just right? Also, does anyone have any suggestions for high-level class features?
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2015-08-28 at 01:02 PM.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    "When a Wizard prepares spells, s/he casts 99% of the spell, leaving off only the final word(s) and gestures to be completed later. That means there's some kind of a link between the spellbook (where 99% of the spell resides) and the Wizard (where the 1% ready-to-cast resides).

    What the Spellthief does is steal the 1% and use the link to pull the 99% out of wherever-it-is.

    Being on a dead magic plane is only relevant to the Spellthief if it's relevant to the Wizard -- if it's sufficient to break the link which would allow the Wizard to cast a prepared spell, then I think it would also be sufficient to block the Spellthief. But I know of no such link-blocking on the spellbook end. Only blockage on the Wizard's end (i.e. the Wizard being in an anti-magic field). "

    Actually there is no such proof of this and destroying your own spell-book do not make the wizard forget his spells because it is not written this way in RAW.
    Also it would be curious to steal a wizard and that somewhere infinitely far in the multiverse there is one spell-book which suddenly loose text.
    Also since it looks extremely like damaging the spell-book can it be repaired with one of those spell made for repairing spell-books?
    Last edited by noob; 2015-08-28 at 01:17 PM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    EDIT: Is Spelljack too strong, or just right? Also, does anyone have any suggestions for high-level class features?
    Spelljack looks pretty good to me. IIRC there are already some effects which steal control of summons and Concentration-duration spells (or maybe psionic Powers) -- this is more limited due to the timing, but also more useful due to the targeting control.

    Maybe make it tied to Counterspell instead of Sleight of Hand -- you can Counterspell as an Immediate action, and then later if you succeed, you can spend some resource to co-opt the spell outright.

    Another high-level ability might be to Counterspell and deal Sneak Attack damage if you succeed.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    .
    I'm not saying that this class is not efficient, but without conjuration, evocation, necromancy, transmutation or universal schools, I can't see how this class even touches T2 (and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, jut that this is the case AFAICT).

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    "When a Wizard prepares spells, s/he casts 99% of the spell, leaving off only the final word(s) and gestures to be completed later. That means there's some kind of a link between the spellbook (where 99% of the spell resides) and the Wizard (where the 1% ready-to-cast resides).

    What the Spellthief does is steal the 1% and use the link to pull the 99% out of wherever-it-is.

    Being on a dead magic plane is only relevant to the Spellthief if it's relevant to the Wizard -- if it's sufficient to break the link which would allow the Wizard to cast a prepared spell, then I think it would also be sufficient to block the Spellthief. But I know of no such link-blocking on the spellbook end. Only blockage on the Wizard's end (i.e. the Wizard being in an anti-magic field). "

    Actually there is no such proof of this and destroying your own spell-book do not make the wizard forget his spells because it is not written this way in RAW.

    Also it would be curious to steal a wizard and that somewhere infinitely far in the multiverse there is one spell-book which suddenly loose text.
    Also since it looks extremely like damaging the spell-book can it be repaired with one of those spell made for repairing spell-books?
    Noob, you said it yourself, the wizard doesn't forget his spells if his spellbook is destroyed. It's the wizard that knows the spell. If a spellthief removes a spell from the wizard's spells known it isn't magically erased from his spellbook, but it is magically erased from his mind. He would go back to his spellbook and, if he even found the spell in there, wouldn't have a clue what his notes on the spell were raving about. He could always learn the same spell again, but that would require a separate process.

    A spellbook is an object that doesn't even have an Intelligence score. It can't know or learn anything. When the spellthief uses Sleight of Hand on the wizard to steal knowledge of a spell from him, he's not taking the spell from the spellbook, he's taking it from the wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Spelljack looks pretty good to me. IIRC there are already some effects which steal control of summons and Concentration-duration spells (or maybe psionic Powers) -- this is more limited due to the timing, but also more useful due to the targeting control.

    Maybe make it tied to Counterspell instead of Sleight of Hand -- you can Counterspell as an Immediate action, and then later if you succeed, you can spend some resource to co-opt the spell outright.

    Another high-level ability might be to Counterspell and deal Sneak Attack damage if you succeed.
    I like the counterspelling ideas, especially counterspell + sneak attack damage, though I'm not sure how thematic they are. For this guy, I really wanted to boil the concept down to its most basic: thief. He's a thief who casts spells and primarily steals spells, but at the end of the day he's a thief (and a good one). Countering spells isn't stealing them, so I'm loathe to put that in there.

    EDIT: Maybe it wouldn't be too terrible an idea to allow the spellthief to steal supernatural effects/abilities at 15th level, and extraordinary abilities at 18th (both with prohibitively huge Sleight of Hand check DCs)? Since many (nearly all) of these have nothing to do with spells and are often passive effects (or even biological/anatomical effects), the spellthief would have to have a hard cap on the number of such stolen abilities it could possess at one time, but it could certainly round the class out and give it even more power and versatility.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    .
    I'm not saying that this class is not efficient, but without conjuration, evocation, necromancy, transmutation or universal schools, I can't see how this class even touches T2 (and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, jut that this is the case AFAICT).
    I'm not 100% confident it's Tier 1 either, but it's certainly Tier 2. It has no limit on spells known and while it can't learn conjuration/evocation/necromancy/transmutation on its own, it can steal spells from those schools, including divine spells, to automatically add them to its list of spells known. It can even steal spell-like abilities to add those as spells known. With that in mind, technically, I think it's Tier 1, though in practice it most often would play like a powerful Tier 3 class.

    When put through the Level 5 Same Game Test the Spellthief has access to Bestow Curse, Lightning Bolt, and whatever spells the Cleric of Hextor allows him to try and steal.

    All this being said, at the moment it feels a little too "strictly better" that the sorcerer and rogue. I will probably lower its spells per day progression down to wizard's and reduce its default number of spells known (since the number of spells it can learn through steal spells is potentially vast). Of course in practice it should have the potential to outclass a sorcerer and definitely a rogue, but it shouldn't just be better by virtue of the chassis.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2015-08-28 at 02:40 PM.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Noob, you said it yourself, the wizard doesn't forget his spells if his spellbook is destroyed. It's the wizard that knows the spell. If a spellthief removes a spell from the wizard's spells known it isn't magically erased from his spellbook, but it is magically erased from his mind. He would go back to his spellbook and, if he even found the spell in there, wouldn't have a clue what his notes on the spell were raving about. He could always learn the same spell again, but that would require a separate process.
    This is all well and good for if the subject of the effect were a Wizard, Archivist, or Erudite. But if it is anyone who lacks their spell-learning mechanism, how do they deal with this permanent loss of spells known? It isn't an ability to which there is much of any equivalent, and the lack of any mechanism to repair it worries me.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (Complete!)

    You fear the spell-thief new game?(reference to the black death new game in diablo)(with sorcerers)
    Last edited by noob; 2015-08-28 at 06:56 PM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    This is all well and good for if the subject of the effect were a Wizard, Archivist, or Erudite. But if it is anyone who lacks their spell-learning mechanism, how do they deal with this permanent loss of spells known? It isn't an ability to which there is much of any equivalent, and the lack of any mechanism to repair it worries me.
    For me this is just a case of where fluff trumps mechanics. The spellthief is a thief. He's stealing your knowledge. If you still have it, then he didn't actually steal it from you. Fortunately D&D isn't a pvp game, and nobody actually cares if the spellthief steals all of the spells of an NPC Sorcerer. But yeah, if you lack a spell learning mechanism and a spellthief steals your spell knowledge you basically just get rek'd and cry in the corner.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2015-08-28 at 07:11 PM.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (Complete!)

    Maybe a careful worded wish can solve that but since it is a powerful effect it might simply send you(and all your family) to hell

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Tier 1 Spellthief Rewrite (A Work-In-Progress)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    For me this is just a case of where fluff trumps mechanics. The spellthief is a thief. He's stealing your knowledge. If you still have it, then he didn't actually steal it from you. Fortunately D&D isn't a pvp game, and nobody actually cares if the spellthief steals all of the spells of an NPC Sorcerer. But yeah, if you lack a spell learning mechanism and a spellthief steals your spell knowledge you basically just get rek'd and cry in the corner.
    I would at least put in some mechanism that allows a Spells Known caster to replace the spell with a different spell at some point during later downtime. Or allow the loss of the spell to be cured by some kind of powerful restorative magic of some sort. Something to make recovery possible, but impractical in the moment that they have stolen it.

    There is no precedent for such complete and irrevocable destruction of character abilities, and I do not think there is a good cause to arbitrarily penalize anyone playing a Spells Known caster for their choice of class.

    I get the fluff is important. Disable their access to that spell, because it was stolen, sure. But let them get the Spell Known Slot (at least) back somehow.

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