Hel is right as hell

[zinycor]

I'm talking morality.

Morally the innocent mortals are entitled to defend themselves from the gods by whatever means necessary and to disrupt that vote.

Whether or not the mortals CAN dsrupt the vote or control the gods is not relevant to the morality.

Morally, the gods are obligated to, should they murder all mortals, create a perfect afterlife for them and humiliate themselves when begging for the mortals' forgiveness.

Whether or not this happens because some or all of the gods are evil or asses is not relevant to the morality.

You know that we are talking abot gods right? Since when morality has been a thing in God's business?

[The_Weirdo]

You know that we are talking abot gods right? Since when morality has been a thing in God's business?

Which means that, should the mortals have the power to do so, they should have no compunctions about forcing the gods to do their bidding, since morality would not be in the equation.

[Keltest]

I'm talking morality.

Morally the innocent mortals are entitled to defend themselves from the gods by whatever means necessary and to disrupt that vote.

Whether or not the mortals CAN dsrupt the vote or control the gods is not relevant to the morality.

Morally, the gods are obligated to, should they murder all mortals, create a perfect afterlife for them and humiliate themselves when begging for the mortals' forgiveness.

Whether or not this happens because some or all of the gods are evil or asses is not relevant to the morality.

Morally, the mortals should sit down and shut up instead of poking at things completely beyond their ken. Roy has flat out admitted that the "blow up the world" side has some very compelling arguments in its favor. And the gods are obligated to do exactly nothing for the mortals killed in that scenario, because they are already doing them a big favor by pulling them out of that mess in the first place.

Disrupting the vote or manipulating the gods has nothing to do with morality, because it has nothing to do with the problem. Forcing the gods to let them live does not remove the threat. Killing the gods absolutely does not remove the threat. You want to know why?

Because the threat is not from the gods. It is from the snarl and the mortals trying to unleash it.

What the mortals do have a right to, is to stop Hel from exploiting the situation to kill everyone anyway, and to stop Redcloak and Xykon from unleashing the snarl, because those ARE solutions to actual threats.

[zinycor]

Which means that, should the mortals have the power to do so, they should have no compunctions about forcing the gods to do their bidding, since morality would not be in the equation.

of course they would have compunctions about it, the gods are way more powerful than them and have powerful followers that are willing to obey them.

EDIT: besides, many gods represent certain aspects of reality, if you kill that god, then you mess up reality. the reality on which the mortals live.

[The_Weirdo]

Morally, the mortals should sit down and shut up instead of poking at things completely beyond their ken. Roy has flat out admitted that the "blow up the world" side has some very compelling arguments in its favor. And the gods are obligated to do exactly nothing for the mortals killed in that scenario, because they are already doing them a big favor by pulling them out of that mess in the first place.

Disrupting the vote or manipulating the gods has nothing to do with morality, because it has nothing to do with the problem. Forcing the gods to let them live does not remove the threat. Killing the gods absolutely does not remove the threat. You want to know why?

Because the threat is not from the gods. It is from the snarl and the mortals trying to unleash it.

What the mortals do have a right to, is to stop Hel from exploiting the situation to kill everyone anyway, and to stop Redcloak and Xykon from unleashing the snarl, because those ARE solutions to actual threats.

The insanely vast majority of the mortals is not responsible even tangentially for the threat.

ALL gods are the ROOT CAUSE of the threat.

Which means that the innocents are, yes, entitled to live and entitled to a perfect afterlife and an apology if they do not.

[Kantaki]

And my point is that the mortals have the right to force the result of that vote to give them a chance and, should said chance ultimately fail, are entitled to a perfect afterlife and a self-humiliating apology.

They are entitled to nothing. Without the gods there wouldn't be any mortals. If the gods decide it is better to destroy their own creation and to start from scratch that is their good right.
I mean, if I play the Sims, Tomodachi Life or Civilization I can start a new game when I want too can't I? It is the same with the gods and the world. Hel, it is even less bad than my comparison since the mortals continue to exist, even if they loose their bodys.

[The_Weirdo]

They are entitled to nothing. Without the gods there wouldn't be any mortals. If the gods decide it is better to destroy their own creation and to start from scratch that is their good right.
I mean, if I play the Sims, Tomodachi Life or Civilization I can start a new game when I want too can't I? It is the same with the gods and the world. Hel, it is even less bad than my comparison since the mortals continue to exist, even if they loose their bodys.

That's not really an apt comparison. A more apt comparison would be a couple killing their kids for convenience because, hey, they can make others!

[Enran]

They are entitled to nothing. Without the gods there wouldn't be any mortals. If the gods decide it is better to destroy their own creation and to start from scratch that is their good right.
I mean, if I play the Sims, Tomodachi Life or Civilization I can start a new game when I want too can't I? It is the same with the gods and the world. Hel, it is even less bad than my comparison since the mortals continue to exist, even if they loose their bodys.

Your Sims and Tomodachi Life and Civilization aren't real. I mean, okay, they're real in the sense that they're physically extant data, but regardless of how well-designed they are, they don't have feelings, genuine hopes and dreams, they're just 0's and 1's working in a way consistent with their programming. The mortal races aren't like that, at least in OOTS (if you think humans work that way in the real world because emotions are just chemical and electrical reactions, that's fine and can influence your IRL decisions however you let it, but it's entirely irrelevant to the discussion); they're creatures with true minds and feelings and souls. You have a responsibility to those creatures that you don't have to a computer simulation, and to compare the two is like comparing actually killing your own children (hey, they wouldn't exist without you) to having a character die in a play you write.

[Keltest]

That's not really an apt comparison. A more apt comparison would be a couple killing their kids for convenience because, hey, they can make others!

That's an even less apt comparison. The mortals aren't being killed for "convenience", theyre being killed because literally the only alternatives are to sit down and hope the problem goes away on its own, or let them be unmade.

[The_Weirdo]

That's an even less apt comparison. The mortals aren't being killed for "convenience", theyre being killed because literally the only alternatives are to sit down and hope the problem goes away on its own, or let them be unmade.

No; as Loki points out, the alternatives are to 100% kill them off NOW and give them time to sort things out (a mess the GODS made) and, if that doesn't work, THEN kill them off.

The innocent victims, directly interested parties in the result of the debate, are entitled to do whatever they can to sway it in a way that preserves their life.

And the gods, which caused the problem, are morally obligated to, should it come down to killing off the innocent victims, give them a perfect afterlife and beg for their forgiveness.

[Keltest]

No; as Loki points out, the alternatives are to 100% kill them off NOW and give them time to sort things out (a mess the GODS made) and, if that doesn't work, THEN kill them off.

The innocent victims, directly interested parties in the result of the debate, are entitled to do whatever they can to sway it in a way that preserves their life.

And the gods, which caused the problem, are morally obligated to, should it come down to killing off the innocent victims, give them a perfect afterlife and beg for their forgiveness.

Loki is assuming that they can still rebind the snarl if the last gate goes. There is no reason to believe he is an infallible source of knowledge here, and things are very clearly not as they seem. Judging by whats going on in the west, it may very well already be too late.

For the umpteenth time, the gods did not cause the problem. Period. This is not up for debate.

[Kantaki]

I admit that the videogame comparison maybe wasn't the best and I don't think the gods see the world this way.

However my point regarding the world being the gods creation and therefore it is theirs to destroy or not still stands.

And the killing comparison doesn't really fit since the mortals will continue to exist, just not in a physical form.

[The_Weirdo]

Loki is assuming that they can still rebind the snarl if the last gate goes. There is no reason to believe he is an infallible source of knowledge here, and things are very clearly not as they seem. Judging by whats going on in the west, it may very well already be too late.

For the umpteenth time, the gods did not cause the problem. Period. This is not up for debate.

Wow. "This is not up for debate". Do I get to use that line to close the debate on anything I feel like?

Let's see:

The mortals have the right to do anything to save themselves. This is not up for debate.
The gods are morally obligated to humiliate themselves and to give the mortals whatever afterlife the mortals want should they kill the mortals. This is not up for debate.
The gods are, yes, the root cause of the problem. This is not up for debate.

Look. They created the snarl. All mortals did not poke the rifts. The insanely vast majority of mortals is innocent. This is not up for debate. Yes, the gods are at the root cause.

[The_Weirdo]

I admit that the videogame comparison maybe wasn't the best and I don't think the gods see the world this way.

However my point regarding the world being the gods creation and therefore it is theirs to destroy or not still stands.

And the killing comparison doesn't really fit since the mortals will continue to exist, just not in a physical form.

Killing someone in D&D is viewed as Evil regardless of there being an afterlife...

[Molan]

Yeah, I just disagree. If the problem wasn't caused by the person who's trying to live, why are they morally obligated to let themselves be killed to solve it? Innocent people have rights. Absolute rights. Non-negotiable rights. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The "good of the many" is no argument to take those rights away. It will never be.

The issue is not whether or not the few LOSE their rights. The issue is that your rights end where another person's begins. In this context, this "tangible limitation" on a person's rights applies because the rights (needs) of two innocent people implicitly outweigh the rights (needs) of one person. The moral weight carried by the "many" only comes more substantial the more of them their are. By saying a person's rights are absolute is to imply that they are limitless. Which then implies that they cannot be quantified.

But, they CAN be quantified. If one person is killed, one person's rights are violated. If one million people are killed, one million people's rights were violated. One million carries more weight then one. Therefore those rights are quantifiable and the needs of the many DO outweigh the needs of the few. There would be no practical way to sluice right from wrong when faced with decisions like this where there is no completely positive outcome.

[falsedot]

I admit that the videogame comparison maybe wasn't the best and I don't think the gods see the world this way.

However my point regarding the world being the gods creation and therefore it is theirs to destroy or not still stands.

And the killing comparison doesn't really fit since the mortals will continue to exist, just not in a physical form.

Actually, the video game analogy is perfect. Hopes and dreams and whatever is the view we have from down here; just like we cannot comprehent if a video game character really feels something, beyond our programming, the gods cannot view mortals as equals.

It is just a game and they have bets: "oooh I dare you to have no organised clergy. yeah but I'll use the trait from this splatbook that gets me all the dishonoured dwarves. Sure thing sweetie, I'm sure you can beat your uncle that way!" Loki pops a thread that makes dwarves super lawful.

[The_Weirdo]

the needs of the many DO outweigh the needs of the few.

Not always:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_On...ay_from_Omelas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lottery

[Kantaki]

Wow. "This is not up for debate". Do I get to use that line to close the debate on anything I feel like?

Let's see:

The mortals have the right to do anything to save themselves. This is not up for debate.
The gods are morally obligated to humiliate themselves and to give the mortals whatever afterlife the mortals want should they kill the mortals. This is not up for debate.
The gods are, yes, the root cause of the problem. This is not up for debate.

Look. They created the snarl. All mortals did not poke the rifts. The insanely vast majority of mortals is innocent. This is not up for debate. Yes, the gods are at the root cause.

The gods want to destroy the the world so that they can preserve the existence of the mortals. That they loose their bodies in the progress is a unfortunate side effect.

And the gods don't have to go out of their way to provide a perfect afterlife because they already do so. The whole point of the afterlifes is that they are as close as possible to perfect for the souls that go there.

I think the problem is that you see this as a punishment and not as a rescue action.

Another example: Let's say some idiot manages to trap himself and some other, you included under a pile of trees. The only sure way to get you out is to ampute a limb. Would you say that they shouldn't ampute one of your limbs because the situation isn't your fault?

[Keltest]

Wow. "This is not up for debate". Do I get to use that line to close the debate on anything I feel like?

Let's see:

The mortals have the right to do anything to save themselves. This is not up for debate.
The gods are morally obligated to humiliate themselves and to give the mortals whatever afterlife the mortals want should they kill the mortals. This is not up for debate.
The gods are, yes, the root cause of the problem. This is not up for debate.

Look. They created the snarl. All mortals did not poke the rifts. The insanely vast majority of mortals is innocent. This is not up for debate. Yes, the gods are at the root cause.

Sure, when I say something that is factually incorrect, you can call me out on it. And it is factually incorrect that the gods are the cause of the current crisis.

[The_Weirdo]

The gods want to destroy the the world so that they can preserve the existence of the mortals. That they loose their bodies in the progress is a unfortunate side effect.

And the gods don't have to go out of their way to provide a perfect afterlife because they already do so. The whole point of the afterlifes is that they are as close as possible to perfect for the souls that go there.

I think the problem is that you see this as a punishment and not as a rescue action.

Another example: Let's say some idiot manages to trap himself and some other, you included under a pile of trees. The only sure way to get you out is to ampute a limb. Would you say that they shouldn't ampute one of your limbs because the situation isn't your fault?

The gods are at fault for the snarl. The mortals are innocent. The mortals are entitled to live OR to see the gods apologize to them AND HUMILIATE THEMSELVES.

Period. It's about right and wrong here and the GODS caused this. In this case, it'd be like the neighbor set a trap and a guy got me and some others there, and the only way to get me out of it was if said neighbor sawed off a limb of mine. You can bet the neighbor would have to beg for my forgiveness and sell his house to make it right because, guess what, the NEIGHBOR set the trap.

[The_Weirdo]

Sure, when I say something that is factually incorrect, you can call me out on it. And it is factually incorrect that the gods are the cause of the current crisis.

Who created the snarl?

[Cazero]

to humiliate themselves in an apology

a self-humiliating apology

The gods are morally obligated to humiliate themselves

AND HUMILIATE THEMSELVES

The apology, I can get behind, but why insist on the humiliation? What would it accomplish?
Self-humiliation is not atonement. It's not an evidence of understanding of what went wrong. It won't make anyone feel better. It won't solve any problem. However, it will make mortals ashamed of their gods.

[The_Weirdo]

The apology, I can get behind, but why insist on the humiliation? What would it accomplish?
Self-humiliation is not atonement. It's not an evidence of understanding of what went wrong. It won't make anyone feel better. It won't solve any problem. However, it will make mortals ashamed of their gods.

If the gods committed genocide because they first screwed up into creating an universe-ending abomination and then screwed up in creating a world so unfair that it necessitated a Redcloak, then they SHOULD be shamed.

[Jasdoif]

Who created the snarl?

No one. Or at least, I'm not aware of a personification of the ambient threads of reality, much less one that got fed up with gods using it to play tug-of-war.

[The_Weirdo]

No one. Or at least, I'm not aware of a personification of the ambient threads of reality, much less one that got fed up with gods using it to play tug-of-war.

The gods created the snarl.

[falsedot]

The gods created the snarl.

Yeah, right between the elves and overentitled dwarves. And then the did nothing to contain it and now they should apologise to the bytes of their hard drive for wiping them :)

[hroþila]

You make it sound like they did it on purpose. It was an accident.

Incidentally, the Snarl was created because the gods were engaging in the exact same kind of behaviour mortals engage all the time.

[Kantaki]

The gods are at fault for the snarl. The mortals are innocent. The mortals are entitled to live OR to see the gods apologize to them AND HUMILIATE THEMSELVES.

Period. It's about right and wrong here and the GODS caused this. In this case, it'd be like the neighbor set a trap and the only way to get me out of it was if said neighbor sawed off a limb of mine. You can bet the neighbor would have to beg for my forgiveness and sell his house to make it right!

Yes, the gods accidentally created the Snarl and they paid for it by loosing a quarter of the pantheons and the first world they created. Afterwards they did their best to ensure that their mistake wouldn't do any more harm. And it would have worked if the mortals hadn't poked the rifts.

And sure, most mortals didn't and is terrible that their physical existence has to end, but if the gods don't do so they get utterly annihilated by the Snarl.

For both their own and the mortals sake the gods have to destroy the world before the Snarl is unleashed. And that only because some mortals couldn't keep their fingers of the big red button.

You say killing an innocent is evil. I agree, but if it saves said innocent from being dragged to hell or ad in this case protects their soul being wiped from existence I would argue that it is good or at least neutral.

[The_Weirdo]

You make it sound like they did it on purpose. It was an accident.

Incidentally, the Snarl was created because the gods were engaging in the exact same kind of behaviour mortals engage all the time.

Irrelevant. The point is the gods screwed it up.

[Keltest]

Who created the snarl?

Who is unleashing it? Hint: its not the gods.