Dragon Ball in the Playground OOC

[Lord Raziere]

Enough Punch could probably take him out.

If you are so sure I can't hurt you, then let us get a free hit

Sure,why not. Do your best.

*looks to 22* it'll take us Five minutes.

Five minutes later it turns out you were punching a false Discord he put there while you were looking at 22, then he comes out of hiding, laughs, turns you into a weak pink puppy and chides you for thinking he would ever play fair then goes forth and spread chaos to his hearts content.

[JohnTheSavage]

...Man, I really need to get around to watching more of MLP, don't I?

[Rater202]

...Man, I really need to get around to watching more of MLP, don't I?

Yes. Yes you do.

I'd also like to point out that Discord's magic was stolen by Tirek, so 22 and 23 could probably deal with him if they got a clear shot.

[Frozen_Feet]

Thought for the day: there is only one Supreme Kai of Time who exist in the main timeline and all its branches simultaneously.

This feels kind of obvious to me considering her status and powers, but I wanted to check if any of you felt differently or if the expanded universe says otherwise. Mainly I just don't want doubles of her and the time patrol running around.

[Lord Raziere]

Thought for the day: there is only one Supreme Kai of Time who exist in the main timeline and all its branches simultaneously.

This feels kind of obvious to me considering her status and powers, but I wanted to check if any of you felt differently or if the expanded universe says otherwise. Mainly I just don't want doubles of her and the time patrol running around.

Xenoverse backs you up on this, yes. Tokitoki town is "the place where all time gathers" according to the game itself, and a big plot point of the game is preventing Beerus from destroying the Big Bad himself because if Beerus did it, the result fight would destroy the center of time.....thus destroying ALL of time, so have to have a friendly fight with Beerus and Whis- and WIN- to make sure that Beerus goes to sleep as promised and let you fight him instead.

so yeah. You pretty much hit the nail on the head: one Time Patrol, one Supreme of Kai of Time, only. To the point where fighting within the Time Egg could destroy everything forever.

[Frozen_Feet]

Good to know!

Also, to comment on recent events in the IC...

Oxy stops practicing.

That son of a bitch. Should follow his own damn advice and either destroy the earth or kill himself,rather than let the people suffer under a lazy god who'd rather enslave his people than do his ****ing job.

"...Um, I don't think thats the point..."

... this exchange was just hilarious given the context and the intended teaching of the story. Almost ungodly so, if I have to say.

In general, big props to Raziere for the MSTs, I got a great deal of laughter out of them. Especially the last one. They might even be on to something.

To comment on Oxy's theory of time travel, I'll note I think he's technically correct about this being an "aberrant" timeline, in that I don't think he was the one to create this universe, meaning this is not based on his past. The departure point just happened lot more recently than he thinks.

Namely, my theory is that it was Android 23 who created this universe, and the time-travellers after her didn't create new ones, they ended up in an already-existing alternate continuity. This universe was going to follow the past of her universe. A lot of the things Oxy complained about to Kami can actually be traced back to Android 23 stopping Kami from scrying at a crucial moment.

If Android 23 had not been there, Yama!Kami would've likely noticed the Yellow Thunder Sage before he reached shore and went to combat him away from the lookout.

Consequently, Callin and the Arcosian brothers would've not found anyone at the lookout. They might have even fought to death. Consider: Korin's / Karin's tower in canon was supposedly named after a deceased hero. In many languages, Callin is pronounced near-identically to Karin / Korin. So it's possible the locals saw this amazing knight battling these two weird creatures and named the tower in his honor.

Without the Androids, Callin and Oxy, no-one would've gone looking for Iris, so she would've just ended up stranded somewhere on Earth, eventually falling in love with some human and becoming ancestor to the Three-eye clan and Tenshinhan.

Yama!Kami returns to the lookout. Sometime later, he finds out about Solitus and goes to do battle with him. Lagerin learns about Yama!Kami and challenges him. Yama!Kami kills him, but is too exhausted to do a thing about the Pride demon. The demon mocks him and Yama!Kami realizes how he's been played. This makes him hate himself and evil people like Lagerin.

Some time later, the Nameless Namekian and Garlic Senior arrive and becomes Yama!Kami's apprentices. Yama!Kami sees promise in them, but based on how badly the Yellow Thunder Sage and Solitus turned out to be, won't allow them to succeed him since they're not pure of heart. This prompts the Nameless Namekian to use fission and hence he becomes the Kami we know from canon.

Then history proceeds more or less like we all know.

There's still the possibility all of this didn't happen, or happened differently in Oxy's timeline (we know it didn't have Garlic in it), but it's also possible it just got lost in history due to much more important events that happened after it.

[Lord Raziere]

Glad you like them, Frozen.

as for that theory:......I actually like that theory. mostly because it allows me to say that while Oxy may be a god, it was Android 23 who created the universe (which of course also fits her Knight of Time title.)

[JohnTheSavage]

I like Frozen's theory, especially that bit with the Callins/Korin connection.

As a sidenote, I've had the history of "Iris Prime" mapped out in my head since just after her introduction. Frozen's got the broad strokes right on the money: without the Androids, Iris ends up wandering the wastelands until she runs across a group of ragtag misfits living as desert bandits. She joins up with them, and they have their own set of wacky adventures. Fast-forward a bit, Iris ends up falling in love with one of them, the group saves a king's life in an adventure, Iris gets ennobled in gratitude and creates the three-eyed clan, who Tien is descended from.

Fun facts:
In the prime timeline, Iris' crash is far more severe. The wreckage is completely unusable and unrecognisable and Iris suffers a head injury in the crash and has amnesia. She forgets about space, Arcosians, Trion, all of it.
The Earth Three-Eyed clan was mostly regular humans, only Iris' central family and descendants had actual third eyes. Their clan members would just have third eyes tattooed on as a coming of age ritual.

[Rater202]

Thought for the day: there is only one Supreme Kai of Time who exist in the main timeline and all its branches simultaneously.

This feels kind of obvious to me considering her status and powers, but I wanted to check if any of you felt differently or if the expanded universe says otherwise. Mainly I just don't want doubles of her and the time patrol running around.

That's the assumption I was going with.

... this exchange was just hilarious given the context and the intended teaching of the story.

I do belive that the intended teaching of the story is "Evil people will be punished in the end." In context of this Kami's actions, however, it comes across as "Kami would rather let innocent people suffer than deal with Tyrants beucase they're gonna deal with them in hell. Also, if Kami meets someone he can't kill, he will destroy the planet he's responisble for, thus murdering millions."

Also,from Oxy's perspective, as Kami enslaved the people he's responsible for, he's just as evil as the Tyrant, if not more so, and the story is just further evidence that Kami isn't doing his god damned job.

To comment on Oxy's theory of time travel, I'll note I think he's technically correct about this being an "aberrant" timeline, in that I don't think he was the one to create this universe, meaning this is not based on his past. The departure point just happened lot more recently than he thinks.

Namely, my theory is that it was Android 23 who created this universe, and the time-travellers after her didn't create new ones, they ended up in an already-existing alternate continuity. This universe was going to follow the past of her universe. A lot of the things Oxy complained about to Kami can actually be traced back to Android 23 stopping Kami from scrying at a crucial moment.

Except she came in through a Time Portal, which is are results of Time Breaker Interference into the past. Raziere used this Origin on my own suggestion that the Time Portal could easily send her from her own timeline to a pre-existing timeline.

Judging from Xenoverse and Online:Time Travel via Supreme Kai of Time or Time Breaker magic does, in fact, alter the time line.

Oxy, on the other hand, came back in a non magical time machine.

So, judging by my understanding of how the various forms of time travel work in the greater Franchise, one likely scenario is a parallel Timeline that would have been almost identical to the main timeline... Until 23 shows up and sends it on a seperate course(but doen'st matter, because it's an alternate),and then a Branch Timeline created when Oxy came back in his Machine. We're following a branch timeline, the same as DBZ follows the Branch Timeline created by Trunks and Cell. Having been branched, the Branch Timeline can now be visited by travelers through time, but major changes to it's past(such as someone going back to before Oxy's time travel) can cause another timeline ti split from this one.

Of course, it's entirely possible(and my gut assumption) that this is a natural alternate timeline that Oxy himself is merely using the "visit another timeline" feature to come too, rather than one he created with a split, but of course he's not going to go with the theory that doesn't make him a the creator of the universe.

which of course also fits her Knight of Time title.)

Would she like Pokasuu to give her the appropriate Jammies?

[Hawkflight]

Has anyone here seen Steins;Gate? I was planning to go with their explanation of time travel - which is basically the branching universe theory, but the universe corrects itself for small deviances that don't have wide-reaching effects. This means that Starlight can use the "divergence meter" from the show to see how big of an impact the group is having on the timeline - if the divergence meter goes above 1.0, she has orders to take action to prevent the timeline going off track.

Naturally, it could only measure changes caused by time magic which actively alter the timeline (Time Breaker magic, etc.), and not non-magical means that would create branching universes (such as Oxy's time machine).

[Rater202]

Well,since Oxy is a major player, it could be argued that the majority of changes are going to happen because of his "Non magic" involvement, so... \

And the group is planning some major alterations to the timeline, so Orders to interfere is just going to cause conflict.

[Hawkflight]

Uh ... what kind of alterations?

[Rater202]

Uh ... what kind of alterations?

Well, for one, one of the groups long term goals is to brutally murder Frieza's ancestor.

We're also hoping to alter Saiyan-Tuffle relationships so to prevent King Vegeta from coming to power centuries from now, thus stopping the extinction of the Tuffles.

[Hawkflight]

Well, for one, one of the groups long term goals is to brutally murder Frieza's ancestor.

We're also hoping to alter Saiyan-Tuffle relationships so to prevent King Vegeta from coming to power centuries from now, thus stopping the extinction of the Tuffles.

Well ... I guess we could say that Frieza is already born? So as to prevent major damage. As for the tuffles ... couldn't we just relocate them to another planet? Or at least do these things through technological means as opposed to magical means.

EDIT: Worst case scenario we can just call it a closed time loop to prevent the divergence meter from going off. I don't actually want it to, it's just more a plot point as to why Starlight's even here.

[Rater202]

You're the one who joined out game. We should not have to bend over backwards to accommodate your character ,and due to the way Time Travel works in dragon ball, the timeline was significantly altered the second Oxy came back in his machine, if not sooner. But it's a branch timeline, so we're not doing any damage.

The easiest solution is that the ponies just don't understand proper time travel, and the "Self correcting stuff" stuff is just them not noticing the time patrol doing maintenance. Since only magic time travel can alter the timeline instead of just creating a new one, and the Time Patrol fixes Time issues caused by magic.

But, since Oxy came back in a time machine, and is going to be a major player,any alterations made to the timeline by the group will, by defult, be mostly timeline based.

(And it can't be a stable loop, because it was an alternate timeline even before time travelers came back,and by altering the past, we'd have no reason to come back and probably wouldn't even exist. Also, that's not how any form of Time Travel works in dragon ball, so it's easiest to just right of "time loops" as the effect of that one shot spell Twilight used, but not other forms of time travel.

[Hawkflight]

But, since Oxy came back in a time machine, and is going to be a major player,any alterations made to the timeline by the group will, by defult, be mostly timeline based.

So, since most of this is caused by Oxy coming back in a time machine, it causes a branching parallel universe, and not any alterations to the prime timeline, right? And this Starlight is, by nature, from this branched timeline. So everything's fine. The divergence meter will never exceed 1.0, because most of these changes are due to a time machine.

[Rater202]

Exactly: Oxy came back in a time machine.

Thus, he branched the timeline from either the alternate timeline or the branch timeline that 23 created(depending on if Portal travel altered the timeline or branched it).

Thus, any further alterations, no matter what the origin, even more people coming to this timeline from Oxy's own, will not alter the time line.

It's already irreparable, so nothing more will damage it further..

[Hawkflight]

Right. So ... No problem.

[Lord Raziere]

That's the assumption I was going with.
I do belive that the intended teaching of the story is "Evil people will be punished in the end." In context of this Kami's actions, however, it comes across as "Kami would rather let innocent people suffer than deal with Tyrants beucase they're gonna deal with them in hell. Also, if Kami meets someone he can't kill, he will destroy the planet he's responisble for, thus murdering millions."

Also,from Oxy's perspective, as Kami enslaved the people he's responsible for, he's just as evil as the Tyrant, if not more so, and the story is just further evidence that Kami isn't doing his god damned job.


Except she came in through a Time Portal, which is are results of Time Breaker Interference into the past. Raziere used this Origin on my own suggestion that the Time Portal could easily send her from her own timeline to a pre-existing timeline.

Judging from Xenoverse and Online:Time Travel via Supreme Kai of Time or Time Breaker magic does, in fact, alter the time line.

Oxy, on the other hand, came back in a non magical time machine.

So, judging by my understanding of how the various forms of time travel work in the greater Franchise, one likely scenario is a parallel Timeline that would have been almost identical to the main timeline... Until 23 shows up and sends it on a seperate course(but doen'st matter, because it's an alternate),and then a Branch Timeline created when Oxy came back in his Machine. We're following a branch timeline, the same as DBZ follows the Branch Timeline created by Trunks and Cell. Having been branched, the Branch Timeline can now be visited by travelers through time, but major changes to it's past(such as someone going back to before Oxy's time travel) can cause another timeline ti split from this one.

Of course, it's entirely possible(and my gut assumption) that this is a natural alternate timeline that Oxy himself is merely using the "visit another timeline" feature to come too, rather than one he created with a split, but of course he's not going to go with the theory that doesn't make him a the creator of the universe.


Would she like Pokasuu to give her the appropriate Jammies?

.....

1. I don't think thats the point of the story. its not "evil people will be punished in the end" its "seek to better the world through what good you can do, not what evil you can vanquish"

2. Nah, I don't care what you say, I'm going with Frozen's theory, cause yours is boring

3. nah, the Androids will learn Clothing Beam over the time skip, so they'll eventually get it anyway, probably along with any other cosplay clothes they decide to conjure up.

[Rater202]

Clothes beam is literally just using magic materialization to make clothes.

[Frozen_Feet]

Regarding time travel, my intent wasn't to kick up a fight about it. :-D It's not particularly important which theory is right, and in-universe it might be impossible for the characters to find out which is right. But I'm glad people found my theory fun.

As for the story, Raziere hit it pretty well. I would've put it as "it's more important for good people to have faith and do good things, than to spend their days bitter and wishing vengeance and bloody murder upon evildoers".

Kami's part in the story is mostly to illustrate how the vengeance and bloody murder would end up poorly for everyone.

[cavalieredraghi]

Raziere are you wanting me to do with luxana in the past?

[Rater202]

Regarding time travel, my intent wasn't to kick up a fight about it. :-D It's not particularly important which theory is right, and in-universe it might be impossible for the characters to find out which is right. But I'm glad people found my theory fun.

As for the story, Raziere hit it pretty well. I would've put it as "it's more important for good people to have faith and do good things, than to spend their days bitter and wishing vengeance and bloody murder upon evildoers".

Kami's part in the story is mostly to illustrate how the vengeance and bloody murder would end up poorly for everyone.

But getting rid of evil people so that good and/or innocent people can live in peace without fearing for their lives or livelihoods is doing a good thing.

Furthermore, by allowing evildoers to continue to commit their crimes and victimize innocents, one is allowing innocents to suffer,and to allow innocents to suffer when you can stop them from suffering is to take some degree of responsibility for their suffering.

[Frozen_Feet]

Maybe, but that's outside the scope of that story. Or rather, in that story it's implied Kami's acts of punishment would create as much or more suffering than evil itself. The idea that Kami might be fine with that is what makes both the immortal and the boy talking to him change their minds.

[Lord Raziere]

Raziere are you wanting me to do with luxana in the past?

I'm not really sure what Luxana would see that would be strange or give Iris a clue, is all, I was hoping you'd know.

Edit: also, while eliminating bad people is a good thing Rater, its just subtraction you see? at some point, you've got to add, you've got to create and do more than just clean up the filth, you got to make something new to fill in, and if you lose sight of the addition side of things, and focus only on subtraction, that can lead to bad things, thats what the story with the immortal is about: Kami is only subtracting here, to motivate the immortal to start adding, which he does as a farmer, which motivates the guy he is talking to, to add to the world with a temple of healing.

[Rater202]

Or rather, in that story it's implied Kami's acts of punishment would create as much or more suffering than evil itself. The idea that Kami might be fine with that is what makes both the immortal and the boy talking to him change their minds.

See, this just tells me that he's not worthy of being Kami,since he's fine with causing more suffering than the evil people and has no methods of not causing suffering.

For example, he could have easily picked up the immortal, flew him up into low orbit, and chucked him into space. He wouldn't have killed him, but he could't hurt anyone.

Threatening to destroy the Earth just makes Kami out to be a jackass.

[Lord Raziere]

Edit: also, while eliminating bad people is a good thing Rater, its just subtraction you see? at some point, you've got to add, you've got to create and do more than just clean up the filth, you got to make something new to fill in, and if you lose sight of the addition side of things, and focus only on subtraction, that can lead to bad things, thats what the story with the immortal is about: Kami is only subtracting here, to motivate the immortal to start adding, which he does as a farmer, which motivates the guy he is talking to, to add to the world with a temple of healing.

Rater, edited my post, look at this.

[Rater202]

Yes, but I hardly see someone like Solitus backing down from a threat like that.

The immortal did, but someone would eventually call Kami's bluff.

[Frozen_Feet]

Carefull with using the word "bluff" there.

[Rater202]

Does Kami really want "Destroyed the planet he's supposed to be in charge of, millions of murders, and the extinction of a planets worth of lifeforms including multiple sentient beings" added to his record?

Is he trying to sprint to Hell? Would that even get him sent to hell? That might get him reincarnated as a Space Tick on a Space Dog's ear.