Why are 10 million dwarf souls even important?

[Chronos]

You know what's really funny? Even though the Giant didn't work out the exact math, when you actually do, it really does come out fairly close. According to the comic, Hel thinks she just might end up exceeding Odin (implying that the final numbers for those two are apt to be fairly close). And plugging in some reasonable assumptions shows that... it is in fact pretty close between those two.

Personally, I think that, even though the Giant isn't actually all that fond of working through calculations, he's just got a really good intuition for math. This would also explain why, even without keeping exact character sheets, the details he's given us still end up remarkably self-consistent.

Oh, and incidentally, the figure of "ten million souls" doesn't even actually matter to the calculation, since (again, given reasonable assumptions) it ends up canceling out of the Hel-Odin comparison. The only relevant figures are the length of a dwarven generation, the age of the world, and the number of deities in the pantheon. Short version, the number of deities (17) is greater than the number of dwarven generations (12), so Hel ends up on top.

[archon_huskie]

I do not think that this would solve the issue.

There is no issue.

There still should be too many dead people with the other gods, since there still should be many short lived humans in the northern continent...

And yet you have been told by the writer that there is not.

just look at the ratio of humans to dwarfs at the moot and then estimate generations for 1200 years. The core problem remains: unless there is a very strong population growth, the dead will strongly outnumber the living after few generations.

And what is that ratio? Cite it from the comic instead of making it up!

In my opinion there still is only one solution that completly solves that problem, and that is making the dead souls count less. A solution which is already in place as of #35

That is not an opinion. An opinion is a preference or a judgment or something. You have stated something factually incorrect. Hel states that the 10 million dwarven souls will make her Queen of the Northern Pantheon. And the other characters, high priests and gods alike do not contradict her claim. And then the writer of the comic has stated Hel's math is correct! non problem completely solved!

[Darth Paul]

So when I said

Well... until we see otherwise, 10,000,000 dwarf souls are important because The Giant (speaking through Hel, as a character) says they are.

was I actually right for once?

[Thrillhouse]

Unless I'm missing something here, wouldn't dead dwarves who died honourably "belong" to whichever god they worshipped? They wouldn't all belong to Thor or Odin, presumably.

So she wouldn't need to have more souls than all the dwarves who have ever died. She just needs more than the current record holder.

I don't care to check whether it's Odin or Thor who heads the pantheon at the moment. But she doesn't need more deaths than DWARVES who've ever lived, just DWARVES THAT WORSHIPPED THOR/ODIN or whoever.

Right?

[factotum]

Hel states that the 10 million dwarven souls will make her Queen of the Northern Pantheon.

She doesn't even state it in such absolute terms--she starts by saying that this influx "could" make her more powerful than Odin himself. The bit about being Queen of the northern pantheon was just her mouth running away with excitement over the possibility rather than a definite prophecy.

[Silvrfox]

It's a fictional story. It works because I say it works, and the rest of the story will be written as if it works. I, the author of the comic, am telling you that the math works out in Hel's favor no matter how you try to calculate it.

Do you need an explanation? Fine. Let's say—and I am absolutely making this up on the spot, but it still counts—that getting a dead soul gives a god a burst of power at the moment that it happens, and then a much lower long-term generation of power over the course of centuries (say, 1/1000th as much) until the soul eventually merges into whatever it merges into and stops contributing completely. Therefore, getting 10 million in one day will grant a huge boost of power to Hel that she can use immediately to gain more influence over the world-making process. All the previous souls that died had their power boosts used up by their respective gods doing things like granting spells and making miracles and such, things that Hel barely does. And once she can influence the world-building process, she can set up the rules differently so that she isn't at such a disadvantage anymore, leading to more consistent generation of power going forward.

There. Now all the math doesn't matter, because as of this post, the amount of power granted at one time greatly outweighs the accumulated drip of power over the previous however-many centuries.

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

Move the rifle around your head, not your head around the rifle.

[Spartakus]

I figured it had something to do with Death being Hel's portfolio. Like sure, the other gods might have more than 10 million souls, but because Hel is the goddess of death, dead souls are far more valuable to her.

That was mostly due to speculation as to why Thor and Loki might come up with a scheme to minimize the number of souls she would get.

Basically, if there is more death, Hel gets power that the other gods wouldn't, because they are less concerned with death (or go out of the way to prevent it in their followers, since most mortals usually tend to not like their life being shortened.)

The income is useless if you don't know how to use it.

I've figured something similar. It is asumed, that gaining souls from dead people to their afterlifes is the only way a deity gains power. But as Durkon pointed out, assuming is like breathing. What if there are other factors that are not statet until now in the comic (and propably never will be when they are not important to the story). It is entirely possible that deities spring into existance with a given power-level (demi, lesser, intermediate, greater) or get a powerlevel based on the importance of their portfolio. For example Skadi has a portfolio (hunt), that would only affect rangers, hunters and the like. So she is propably a minor deity. Hel on the other hand has a portfolio that is of great importance to every mortal being. So she might be a greater deity despite having literally noone to worship her. The comic even says, that there is some kind of scheme preventing her of getting power.

So the math behind the 10 million dwarfen souls is not what makes her powerull in the first place, but what increases her power to the point where she might become queen of the northern gods.

[Vinyadan]

It's a fictional story. It works because I say it works, and the rest of the story will be written as if it works. I, the author of the comic, am telling you that the math works out in Hel's favor no matter how you try to calculate it.

Do you need an explanation? Fine. Let's say—and I am absolutely making this up on the spot, but it still counts—that getting a dead soul gives a god a burst of power at the moment that it happens, and then a much lower long-term generation of power over the course of centuries (say, 1/1000th as much) until the soul eventually merges into whatever it merges into and stops contributing completely. Therefore, getting 10 million in one day will grant a huge boost of power to Hel that she can use immediately to gain more influence over the world-making process. All the previous souls that died had their power boosts used up by their respective gods doing things like granting spells and making miracles and such, things that Hel barely does. And once she can influence the world-building process, she can set up the rules differently so that she isn't at such a disadvantage anymore, leading to more consistent generation of power going forward.

There. Now all the math doesn't matter, because as of this post, the amount of power granted at one time greatly outweighs the accumulated drip of power over the previous however-many centuries.

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

So, power derived by souls is like proteins: you get them, but you can't really store them in excess (like you can with fat). You will inevitably get weaker if you don't have the right protein intake. But even if you had a lower (albeit sufficient) intake in the previous months than most other people, if there were a contest in which the guy with most proteins becomes King of the Golden Hill, and you had had a higher protein intake than your opponents the seven days before, you will win and become King of the Golden Hill!

Slightly off topic, I am not critiquing or anything, but I am impressed by the fact that modern Scandinavia (D+N+S) only has twice its medieval population, and the Scandinavian peninsula only has 15 millions. French population grew about 3-4X, English population more than 15X. Generally, European population has increased by about 7X since the high middle ages.

[Onyavar]

Let's assume that if we take 18 completely random people from all the followers of the Northern Pantheon, there are:
- 4 dwarves
- 2 orcs
- 2 halflings
- 1 gnome
- 9 humans

From all evidence we have seen in the comic strip, humans ARE the largest population group in the North. Dwarves live reclused in the far north, we never saw many halflings, or gnomes for that matter until Tinktertown. The sample above doesn't strike me as unrealistic...

Going from the sample, 4 dwarves roughly represent 10 million of them. If the dwarves are not HUGELY overrepresented, it means that there are around 35 million (give or take a dozen millions) of non-dwarven souls floating around on the northern continent, and a total amount of 45 million: Hel gets between 1/4 and 1/5 of the souls available.

Maybe the dwarves are actually underrepresented, since a former HPoO also had been a dwarf? Maybe there are only 30 million souls in total for the Northern Gods, and Hel gets a whopping third of the share? Maybe dwarven souls are worth more because they live longer and accumulate more life essence in that long time? Maybe the demigods also claim their share of the souls, too? All of this is just speculation. What we know about the Northern Lands population is the sample from comic 999 and that there are 10 million dwarves.

There is also a certain author's statement about the population of Azure City. If I remember correctly (I don't have the 3rd book on hand currently, so please correct me!), the count was in the hundredthousands of inhabitants, not in the millions. It also stated that Azure City was one of the largest countries of the Southern Lands. If we assume that there are twenty to fifty (!?) countries, and only very few are larger and most are a lot smaller... it's very consistent with not more than 10-40 million Southern Followers in total.

And while there are no numbers available for the Western Continent, I don't assume that it is MORE populous than the Northern or Southern lands. Not with the constant war and the not-so-procreative elves.

The Dark One gained godhood by a burst of one million goblinoid souls crying for revenge... making him into a minor pantheon of one. He wouldn't be that much of a deal in a world where the population counts into the hundreds of millions and a million people die each year anyway.

The Giant already posted about the population of Faerun, which is yet another fictional world to consider, with a population structure much more closely related to OotSWorld than Earth.

In fact, when I read about the 10 million dwarves, at first glance it seemed a large amount to me, considering wealth, levels and sustainability in a roleplaying game world. My first thought was how they feed all these people, before remembering that there are things like deep-apples, undermalt and darkcattle.

Rich, your numbers are consistent, plausible and believable to me, once I put them all together!

[Psyren]

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

I want to nail this quote in flaming letters to every thread in Media, and Gaming too for that matter.

The fact that this thread drew a lot of responses poking at assumptions and counter-assumptions makes it clear to me that there is a certain % of your audience that does enjoy such speculations.

As someone who also enjoys such speculations, I'd like to emphasize the Giant's earlier point that we as forumites can do a better job of saying explicitly "this is just a thought exercise and we may very likely be approaching the logic backwards - it is not intended to be critical of the premises in the comic, nor in truth can it really be since we the readers are always going to be operating off of incomplete information."

YES!
When Hel specifically talked about INFLUX of souls, I assumed that the truth is something like this...

1. Getting new souls is sort of the income a God gets.
2. Gods also have expenses of various kinds, spending the cosmic energy or whatever they get from gaining new souls.
3. At any particular time, each God has a certain level of available resources. This "Cosmic savings Account" is based on past income AND past expenses.
4. The influx of 10 million souls would go directly into Hel's Cosmic Savings Account, giving her a moment of being the richest deity in the pantheon...
5. ...and this moment is not just any moment, but the extremely crucial moment of creating the new world. Yes, the moment in history when the CSA will be more important than ever!

This theory is very consistent with Hel knowing what she's talking about. And like The Giant pointed out, we have no reason to assume that she doesn't know what she's talking about.

It's a fictional story. It works because I say it works, and the rest of the story will be written as if it works. I, the author of the comic, am telling you that the math works out in Hel's favor no matter how you try to calculate it.

Do you need an explanation? Fine. Let's say—and I am absolutely making this up on the spot, but it still counts—that getting a dead soul gives a god a burst of power at the moment that it happens, and then a much lower long-term generation of power over the course of centuries (say, 1/1000th as much) until the soul eventually merges into whatever it merges into and stops contributing completely. Therefore, getting 10 million in one day will grant a huge boost of power to Hel that she can use immediately to gain more influence over the world-making process. All the previous souls that died had their power boosts used up by their respective gods doing things like granting spells and making miracles and such, things that Hel barely does. And once she can influence the world-building process, she can set up the rules differently so that she isn't at such a disadvantage anymore, leading to more consistent generation of power going forward.

There. Now all the math doesn't matter, because as of this post, the amount of power granted at one time greatly outweighs the accumulated drip of power over the previous however-many centuries.

The "influx" explanation makes a lot of sense to me and wraps up any lingering uncertainties nicely.

[LuisDantas]

Personally, I find the number way too high if anything.

OOTS-world is home to some pretty weird ecology, is heavily slanted towards human populations at the expense of demihumans, and has at least a half dozen less numerous competing demihuman races disputing the same vital space and resources. Orcs, particularly, are supposed to multiply quite fiercely, and we have seen a lot of other very combative, predatorial races - Goblins and Hobgoblins for two.

And it is based on a particularly violent and dangerous interpretation of medieval Earth to begin with.

I would not expect to find much more than 20 million humans or so in any continent, let alone dwarves. For one thing, the political structure of medieval populations does not really work at all with current human population levels (for that matter, neither does ours, but I guess that is another thread to make in some other forum).

But of course, expecting D&D demographics and ecological systems to make sense is expecting quite a lot from a system that merrily sacrifices those parameters to suit other goals.

[grandpheonix]

It's a fictional story. It works because I say it works, and the rest of the story will be written as if it works. I, the author of the comic, am telling you that the math works out in Hel's favor no matter how you try to calculate it.

Do you need an explanation? Fine. Let's say—and I am absolutely making this up on the spot, but it still counts—that getting a dead soul gives a god a burst of power at the moment that it happens, and then a much lower long-term generation of power over the course of centuries (say, 1/1000th as much) until the soul eventually merges into whatever it merges into and stops contributing completely. Therefore, getting 10 million in one day will grant a huge boost of power to Hel that she can use immediately to gain more influence over the world-making process. All the previous souls that died had their power boosts used up by their respective gods doing things like granting spells and making miracles and such, things that Hel barely does. And once she can influence the world-building process, she can set up the rules differently so that she isn't at such a disadvantage anymore, leading to more consistent generation of power going forward.

There. Now all the math doesn't matter, because as of this post, the amount of power granted at one time greatly outweighs the accumulated drip of power over the previous however-many centuries.

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

Holy **** Rich is a genius. I knew this before, but damn man. My brain thanks you for this idea!

[Shining Wrath]

It amuses me to no end that Tolkien inadvertently created* a completely unetymological plural that has largely displaced the more correct one in so many fields.

*for all intents and purposes

He wrote that the proper word would be "dwerrows" but he didn't think he could get that past his editors.

The man was good with languages.

Oxford professor of linguistics is good with languages to about the same degree a 20th level wizard is good with spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why are 10 million dwarf souls even important?
The answer is either "Dinner!" (as seem from Hel's perspective) or "Because Dwarf Souls Matter, Mr Humanocentric Person!" heard in the mountains where the dwarves live.

So, power derived by souls is like proteins: you get them, but you can't really store them in excess (like you can with fat). You will inevitably get weaker if you don't have the right protein intake.

Soylent Green is dwarves!

Generally, European population has increased by about 7X since the high middle ages.

They did try to reverse that trend where they could in the 20th century, via world wars and reduced fecundity ...

Luis Dantas
OOTS-world is home to some pretty weird ecology, is heavily slanted towards human populations at the expense of demihumans, and has at least a half dozen less numerous competing demihuman races disputing the same vital space and resources.

If OOTS seems humanocentric, then give Rich credit for being consistent with the game creator's vision. Gary Gygax explicitly stated that the world of D&D (and thus the game's various treatments of humans, humanoids, and demi humans), is by nature humanocentric. (This is in the DMG for first edition, among other places. I recall a few Dragon articles waay back on the same topic). Granted, by the time we arrive at 3.0 and 3.5, D&D looks far more diverse for gamist reasons, as well as for imagination reasons.

A humanocentric world makes easier for us, the mundane, to make the transition from our primary world into the secondary fantasy world of the make believe stories in D&D games, strips, as well as swords and sorcery stories in general. (See Tolkien's old essay 'On Fairy Stories' for a deeper discussion of that part of the writer's craft).

[FallenFallcrest]

Well, if Hel is convinced that she will get the 10 million plus Dwarven souls, I think we have good reason to to believe she will. She would not be so confident if her plan could be waved away by loophole. If she says it will make her more powerful than Odin, than we have to believe her. It is how the plot works, simple as that.

Is it realistic that all of those dwarves, plus the ones she already has would make her domain large enough (and her powerful enough) to be greater than Odin? Maybe, maybe not. Think about that most of the worshiper of the Northern Pantheon are Dwarves, and you see why the other gods might be concerned. Hel directly gets all of the Dwarves instead of having them obtained indirectly based on alignment and worship. That might be another reason. In any case, we the reader just have to believe Hel's plan will theoretically work, or else she would not have spent all this time planning it.

[Psyren]

It's more accurate to say that she would if the heroes can't/don't do anything to stop her. Obviously the world isn't going to actually be destroyed, as that would make for a sucky ending and violate Elan's prophecy. So the question then is what will happen.

At the same time though, I don't see Hel coming away from this empty-handed either. This is a (no pun intended) hell of a gambit she's pulled off, finally getting a seat at the table and her very own high priest. Even if her Real Ultimate Plan fails, there's a lot she could do with this many vampire clerics that she couldn't before.