General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[Lord Raziere]

other facts to consider:

-Incarnae, Exalted and pretty much EVERYONE had no idea that killing a Primordial would cause such a great break to reality. who can be blamed, when no one had any idea of what to expect, because it literally never happened before?

-keep in mind that the Primordials are the ones who decided to decided to weave a curse upon all the Exalted with their dying breath that would persist for all eternity and be the cause for all that happens after as a form of revenge.

-how culpable the Exalted are for their actions because of the Great Curse is questionable. notice that the Neverborn are the ones that placed it, so the negotiations withe Yozis occurred after the Great curse was placed. you could say that the Neverborn screwed over their Yozi brethren by proxy.

[Morty]

One of the many strange things Exalted introduced me to is the argument that being big and powerful enough exempts you from moral culpability for your actions.

[Lord Raziere]

One of the many strange things Exalted introduced me to is the argument that being big and powerful enough exempts you from moral culpability for your actions.

Because somehow the Usurpation and the game's themes about how the weak always band together to overthrow the strong whenever the strong starts thinking like that is "nothing important", apparently.....

[golentan]

Not that the primordials didn't know abstractly they (humans) existed, but the primordials had no reason to ascribe them moral weight based on the paradigms they had available and no need to notice how their actions affected the mortals below. Not that the primordials didn't deserve to be removed, but that the moral myopia ascribed to how they were treated is arguably worse than the myopia with which they treated humanity and the gods, because humans and gods at least recognized that primordials were beings with moral weight and that the demons and devas which sprung from them also possessed it. Not that the primordials are exempt from the consequences of their actions, but their actions can't be ascribed to Evil for the most part to the best of the knowledge I have of the Time of Glory and the War. Not only had they no reason to understand what they were doing MATTERED, they are by the standard of any human court legally insane as best I can tell, and I include Gaia and Autochthon. They're guilty, but they're not culpable. They were ignorant, not necessarily malicious.

It's frustrating to me because the people willing to assign moral relatives as a mitigating factor in the Usurpation in either direction, for example, or cite Slavery as a reason for the gods to seek to overthrow the primoridals, consistently ignore the genocide and enslavement of millions or billions of beings of equal moral weight to the gods (namely, demonkind, many of whom aren't that bad) or ignore the excesses of one side or the other to make their point.

The Primordials deserved to be taken down a peg. They deserved to be forced to face the consequences of their style of rule. They didn't deserve to be mutilated inside out, and tortured, and enslaved in turn. They didn't deserve to be cast into hell. They didn't deserve to DIE. NOBODY deserves to die. Killing should always be a last resort to a bad situation where other options are impossible, no matter how limited you believe the consequences may be. Except by the nature of the titans alone there were never going to be limited consequences. Simply fighting them unleashed apocalyptic destruction on a global scale for plenty of beings, no doubt including a fair few mortals and paramortals: Magical thermonuclear war seems to be their go-to when presented with an army.

Why is this so hard to grasp? It's protagonist centered morality at its worst. THAT is the fundamental nature of my objection.

"Primordials deserved what we did to them!"
"Why?"
"They hurt us."
"They didn't understand that. You understood that you were hurting them, and all those progeny derived from them who didn't match your view of an ideal world."
"Yeah, but we won."
"Which is good, since they can't hurt you anymore for sure, but the whole thing has inspired a cascading spiral of hurt: on you, on them, on innocent bystanders, on creation itself."
"Didn't know at the time."
"Ah, but you did, didn't you? They didn't understand you, but you understood them. The flexibility of the human mind and its capacity to dream bigger than itself is what allows the power of the exalted and drives them forward. Maybe you didn't foresee all the consequences, but you knew at least some of them, and you chose to enact them, seemingly for revenge. You then justify it by saying we won. You think that your usurpation of them was fully justified, but then you turn around and fail to support the Bronze Faction and the Empress because the Usurpation was not."
"We were better rulers than they ever were!"
"Were you? Were you really? For millions of years before you, creation passed along with scarcely a hiccup. In 5000 years since seizing the mantle, it's at the brink of annihilation and much that once was is gone forever."
"The gods think we were better!"
"Do they? How many of the forbidden gods were there, those who supported the primordials and were executed en masse? How long since the Sun turned his face from you?"
"The gods were enslaved to do the bidding of the primordials!"
"Is that worse than the threats they face now, of true death, of civil war, of the unraveling of all things, of petty tyrants corrupt with Prayer and serving nothing but their own ambition at the expense of their fellows, of kangaroo courts when Sidereals demand more starmetal? And indeed, didn't you claim the Primordials treated the Unconquered Sun and other Incarnae as their own child in many ways, that he would take leisure in Yu Shan with them from time to time?"
"Shut up, they were horrible."
"Yes. They were. And they needed to go. And you did. It. Wrong."

[HalfTangible]

They're guilty, but they're not culpable. They were ignorant, not necessarily malicious.

-___- what was that phrase... 'ignorance is no excuse'?

consistently ignore the genocide and enslavement of millions or billions of beings of equal moral weight to the gods (namely, demonkind, many of whom aren't that bad)

Not really, demons are a part of their progenitors. They're part of a being, not beings in and of themselves.

Killing should always be a last resort to a bad situation where other options are impossible

No other option was possible >.> There's no negotiating with the "insane", as you put it, nor with beings that have no reason to negotiate. Their only two options were to leave the Primordials in Creation (which would have lead to the exact same crap as before) or send them out of Creation (which was not gonna happen willingly - Chaos is hell.).

Ugh, I'm done with this discussion. Need to go eat...

[Exthalion]

"Primordials deserved what we did to them!"
"Why?"
"They hurt us."
"They didn't understand that. You understood that you were hurting them, and all those progeny derived from them who didn't match your view of an ideal world."
"Yeah, but we won."
"Which is good, since they can't hurt you anymore for sure, but the whole thing has inspired a cascading spiral of hurt: on you, on them, on innocent bystanders, on creation itself."
"Didn't know at the time."
"Ah, but you did, didn't you? They didn't understand you, but you understood them. The flexibility of the human mind and its capacity to dream bigger than itself is what allows the power of the exalted and drives them forward. Maybe you didn't foresee all the consequences, but you knew at least some of them, and you chose to enact them, seemingly for revenge. You then justify it by saying we won. You think that your usurpation of them was fully justified, but then you turn around and fail to support the Bronze Faction and the Empress because the Usurpation was not."
"We were better rulers than they ever were!"
"Were you? Were you really? For millions of years before you, creation passed along with scarcely a hiccup. In 5000 years since seizing the mantle, it's at the brink of annihilation and much that once was is gone forever."
"The gods think we were better!"
"Do they? How many of the forbidden gods were there, those who supported the primordials and were executed en masse? How long since the Sun turned his face from you?"
"The gods were enslaved to do the bidding of the primordials!"
"Is that worse than the threats they face now, of true death, of civil war, of the unraveling of all things, of petty tyrants corrupt with Prayer and serving nothing but their own ambition at the expense of their fellows, of kangaroo courts when Sidereals demand more starmetal? And indeed, didn't you claim the Primordials treated the Unconquered Sun and other Incarnae as their own child in many ways, that he would take leisure in Yu Shan with them from time to time?"
"Shut up, they were horrible."
"Yes. They were. And they needed to go. And you did. It. Wrong."

A: That shade of yellow is really hard to read on a white background.
B: This is a very blatant strawman position.

Humans were intentionally created to suffer because the Primordials wanted it that way. They were made small, weak, and prone to cry out in terror and supplication because the Titans enjoyed feeling important. They were made in Mockery of the Clay Man and Authochthon who made them and made pathetic so that as the Titans went about making their messes or the Fey slipped through they would pray for deliverance and alert the gods that something needed fixing. Call it the hand of the Dragon's Shadow or not, but this was not the way things needed to be.

For proof, just look at the Lintha. Lets be honest and admit the only real difference is their native charms. They could even breed with humans without magic. Yet they enjoyed a place of favor and the, somewhat twisted, love of their maker. They used their powers to deal with problems themselves and offered up worship to the Great Mother without having to suffer terribly to do so. Thus the intended purpose of humans could have been managed without making their existence suffering. The fact that at least one Titan could be nice about this, add in Autochthon and it is clear that considering the feelings of human scale things isn't unique, means that they do not have a class based exemption.

They were jerks on purpose, they deserved what they got. As for the demons, a significant number of the Third Circles were culpable. Markaros, the Deer that Hunts Men, the Grieving Lord: All had a hand in making human lives miserable. Was the Demon City overdoing it? Maybe. Could Creation every really have been safe if they had just been banished to the Wyld? We don't know. The Constellation of Sinew and Dreams was able to suck the vitality out of Creation by itself before Sol smacked it down. The Aftershock Titan nearly defeated the Exalted Host. Imagine what he could have done if he had the support of the rest of them. Giving a bunch of demiurges all the time in the world and infinite resources to work with, without neutering them to prevent them from being truly creative like the Yozi are, and I imagine they could figure out a way to get around whatever restrictions you place on them so as to hurt you.

Do the Exalted carry enormous guilt for their war crimes and what they did after? Absolutely. The Jadeborn were their allies. Now the People of Adamant, had they been of that persuasion, could have been a worldwide threat that would have taken the Solars generations to defeat. They weren't though. The Solars acted entirely on a humanity first basis and recognized moral agents are suffering and dying every day because of it.

What, nominally, makes the Exalted better rulers is that they tried to be better. They tried, at first, to rule with wisdom and grace and to provide equity and prosperity. It didn't work out. Maybe it can never work out. That doesn't mean that failing puts them in the same mud as the Primordials.


Sorry if this is a little scattered, on my phone without time to edit.

[Gensh]

You didn't think you were going to get through a Primordial morality discussion without me, did you?

For the sake of cutting down on text and leaving everyone exhausted, I'll go with a list summarizing some major points.

Spoiler

Show

• Human suffering
  
  • Humans were explicitly created to suffer because that produces the highest quality prayer
  • Some gods continue to let humans suffer for this reason
  • It is the fundamental nature of some Primordials to harm others, while some do it out of laziness
  • Humans do it for funsies
• Quality of life
  
  • Without question, the First Age was the peak of Creation, and the Shogunate was okay
  • Everything is moderately awful for everyone now
  • Younger demons are "evil" partially as a result of Malfeas being a harsh place to live
  • Cecelyne's prayer-slaves are actually some of the best-treated mortals in all the realms
• War crimes
  
  • Primordials cast races that bored them into the Underdark caverns beneath Creation
  • They permanently crippled the Dragon Kings during the War
  • The Exalted murdered literally every Primordial loyalist race
  • They permanently crippled the proto-Jadeborn, who were their allies, because they turned off the nukes
  • Only the Ebon Dragon is so cruel as to inflict eternal torment on an enemy
  • The Exalted considered this a mercy
  • Only Autochthon smelted soulsteel, and only once, when his wrath was utterly stirred
  • The Lover does it to make sex toys
• State of Creation
  
  • In the beginning, Creation was utterly self-sustaining due to a functional hierarchy of gods
  • Sol staffed the initial Celestial hierarchy in an act of outright cronyism
  • Sol is an utter failure as King of Heaven
  • While the Primordials broke parts occasionally, they never permanently damaged it (aside from the TSC)
  • THE DEATHLORDS

In the end, it's not that the Primordials weren't awful so much as the other side somehow managed to be worse than the Ebon Dragon. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and whatnot. Frankly, I like to compare it to the plot of Transformers: War for Cybertron - Megatron is utterly justified until he starts setting up his own death camps, and some of the Decepticons don't even realize they've become what they set out to destroy.

I know some people will respond with the Great Curse - but it's not mind control. It's a gentle nudge toward engaging one's darkest passions until it explodes into Limit Break. We're given several canon examples of Exalts who didn't fall to the Curse, but their deliberate ignorance or apathy toward their peers' actions makes them no better. As much as I hate to say it, the "murder everyone until we hit the Dark Ages" Bronzies are the best of humanity (excluding Alchemicals).

Obviously, this awkward moral balance is something that I at least am hoping (and assuming) will be fixed in Ex3. Unfortunately, the glorious debauchery angle it looks like the team's going with for Infernals is just taking things the other way. We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

[Sith_Happens]

Random tagline I just came up with:

"The Wyld: Where colorless green ideas really do sleep furiously."

[Lanaya]

Obviously, this awkward moral balance is something that I at least am hoping (and assuming) will be fixed in Ex3. Unfortunately, the glorious debauchery angle it looks like the team's going with for Infernals is just taking things the other way. We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

Highly doubt it. Taking emphasis away from the Primordials and prehistory of the setting and putting it back on to the Exalted and 'modern' day is one of the main 3e design goals. I'd be surprised if they described the rule of the Primordials at all, much less putting enough spotlight on them and their era that we could have deep and complex moral debates over whether the Primordial War was justified.

[SaurOps]

They were jerks on purpose, they deserved what they got. As for the demons, a significant number of the Third Circles were culpable. Markaros, the Deer that Hunts Men, the Grieving Lord: All had a hand in making human lives miserable.

Respectively, a second circle, a first, and another second. They're passed down from the third circles, again respecitvely, Erembour, Munaxes, and Ligier.

[Exthalion]

Respectively, a second circle, a first, and another second. They're passed down from the third circles, again respecitvely, Erembour, Munaxes, and Ligier.

You are correct.

[golentan]

Did they even exist in prehistory, also? Most of the time when a demon breed has such a long history, it's noted, as with the Dancers of the Saigoth Gates, who are called out as having existed in the time before time. And the discussion of death among second circles leads me to believe that many if not most of them have been replaced over the course of time.

For example, the Grieving Lord is descended from Ligier, who represents among other things Malfeas's self loathing. Gervesin spreads suffering simply by his presence, suffering and blight and madness and violence follow in his wake, and he weeps for his past crimes even as he commits new ones.

Sounds to me kind of like that niggling voice at the bottom of his subconscious acting out in perpetual pantomime "Maybe I wasn't the glorious king I believed myself to be, maybe I should have paid more attention to my subjects, maybe... Maybe... Regret... Regret..."

[Lord Dusk]

Can anyone tell me what there is on the Primordial called Heart-Frost Unending? There's a passing mention of it in an Ink Monkey essay, a Neverborn in one Underworld rewrite, and a cool homebrew charmset on the forum. The consensus I can find from players seems to be that she's dead, but I can't find anything in the books to support that.

[golentan]

Can anyone tell me what there is on the Primordial called Heart-Frost Unending? There's a passing mention of it in an Ink Monkey essay, a Neverborn in one Underworld rewrite, and a cool homebrew charmset on the forum. The consensus I can find from players seems to be that she's dead, but I can't find anything in the books to support that.

Bright Shattered Ice is presumed to have slain Hunanura, the Heart Frost Unending, because of some lines in her backstory in Dreams of the First Age:

Blessed with beautiful Northern-pale skin and long
red hair, Bright Shattered Ice rarely feels the need to wear
much beneath her wings of the raptor artifact. She took her
name from a Primordial she slew, whose body left nothing
behind but a plain of frozen fragments, and she sometimes
dons a necklace of those same shards—preserved 3,500 years
against melting by her technical virtuosity.

While a lot of the primordials have imagery overlap, generally occam's razor is applied to unknown primordial imagery, as Mardukth who Holds In Thrall is presumed to be the similarly named neverborn. It's vague enough that if you desire Hunanura to be alive, or even to be the unbound titan who's out there somewhere, however, feel free to say In My Universe.

[Lord Dusk]

I'd completely forgotten about BSI, thanks.

[TimeWizard]

I once asked where the word "Yozi" originated from, and someone linked me to the poem in came from, but for the life of me I can not find it on Google or searching the forums. Does anyone know?

I wanna say it was from the 1800-1900's. The author was famous, I think.

EDIT: Lord Dunsany, Time and the Gods, 1906. Part 1, "When the Gods Slept".

I might have known.

[TimeWizard]

-Incarnae, Exalted and pretty much EVERYONE had no idea that killing a Primordial would cause such a great break to reality. who can be blamed, when no one had any idea of what to expect, because it literally never happened before?

I want to point something out here: it was actually impossible to kill a Primordial. The Solars had to invent a way to do it, before that if you slew a Fetich soul and it reformed as a similar but distinctly different entity. So the Incarnae really had no idea the kinda hectic that was about to go down"

[Amechra]

To change the subject:

What happens when you try to cross Cecelyne using charms that modify your travel time?

Does she NOPE the Charm, using her nature as an infinity? Does your Charm NOPE her infinity? Is there a roll-off?

This question is so import, you guys.

[Andreaz]

To change the subject:

What happens when you try to cross Cecelyne using charms that modify your travel time?

Does she NOPE the Charm, using her nature as an infinity? Does your Charm NOPE her infinity? Is there a roll-off?

This question is so import, you guys.

Well, first let's begin by noticing there aren't all that many travel time charms. The sidereals have one, that makes it last...five days.
Most others just make you travel faster, which is useless.


Overall I would just nope it, because screw that man it's just a walk you signed for when you arrived. But if you really really really want you could do a roll-off. Cecelyne as a primordial has 10 essence and probably a bonus on top of that. Probably something like 10 dice + 10 successes.

[Gensh]

Does she NOPE the Charm, using her nature as an infinity? Does your Charm NOPE her infinity? Is there a roll-off?

It's actually the Exalted that enforced that. Cecelyne would actually prefer to keep you there forever, but the Surrender Oaths limit it to 5 days.

But if you really really really want you could do a roll-off. Cecelyne as a primordial has 10 essence and probably a bonus on top of that. Probably something like 10 dice + 10 successes.

As noted, you can't affect the 5-day limit because that's part of the agreement (unless you use a Key to go directly to the Demon City), but for reference, a Primordial automagically gets 20 successes whenever their Excellency would apply.

[Exthalion]

It's actually the Exalted that enforced that. Cecelyne would actually prefer to keep you there forever, but the Surrender Oaths limit it to 5 days.



As noted, you can't affect the 5-day limit because that's part of the agreement (unless you use a Key to go directly to the Demon City), but for reference, a Primordial automagically gets 20 successes whenever their Excellency would apply.

Doesn't the Key actually takes five days as well? I know the bridge does, it just seems instant for you.

[ChaosArchon]

I want to point something out here: it was actually impossible to kill a Primordial. The Solars had to invent a way to do it, before that if you slew a Fetich soul and it reformed as a similar but distinctly different entity. So the Incarnae really had no idea the kinda hectic that was about to go down"

Except maybe Jupiter, possibly the other Maidens too given the way the samsara works. And that's still a maybe even for Jupiter...

[Gensh]

Doesn't the Key actually takes five days as well? I know the bridge does, it just seems instant for you.

See, funny thing is that the Bridge doesn't say anything like that either. You can stand in the center and have one foot in Creation and the other in Malfeas. Mind, the Bridge is one of the things that should probably be retconned since it doesn't make sense. The Keys are acceptable, since they only allow a shortcut in and have a high cost.

Now, when we look at them, the Bridge is boring because "blah blah Solars." The Keys are interesting because it raises the question as to whether Cecelyne is explicitly allowing this circumvention of her own rules as part of her hypocrisy - or whether Malfeas still possesses the power to override her even in her role as warden of the Yozis' prison.

[The_Snark]

Well, first let's begin by noticing there aren't all that many travel time charms. The sidereals have one, that makes it last...five days.
Most others just make you travel faster, which is useless.

Actually, if you roll high enough when using Yellow Path (Sidereal Ride) it changes your travel time to "you arrive just in time to meet your deadline, no matter how little sense that makes." Not clear how that would work if trying to enter/leave Malfeas for an urgent appointment.

See, funny thing is that the Bridge doesn't say anything like that either. You can stand in the center and have one foot in Creation and the other in Malfeas. Mind, the Bridge is one of the things that should probably be retconned since it doesn't make sense. The Keys are acceptable, since they only allow a shortcut in and have a high cost.

... huh, I could have sworn both of those artifacts had a clause saying "when you arrive on the other side five days have passed". Maybe that's another bit of headcanon that I've forgotten is not actual-canon.

[Lord Raziere]

Actually, if you roll high enough when using Yellow Path (Sidereal Ride) it changes your travel time to "you arrive just in time to meet your deadline, no matter how little sense that makes." Not clear how that would work if trying to enter/leave Malfeas for an urgent appointment.

....hm, possibilities:

1. the charm simply overrides Cecelynes attempts to make it five days to cross

2. the charm changes the deadline so that its always at the end of the five days

3. there is a clause in the pacts that bind Cecelyne to make an exception for Sidereals with Yellow Path

4. a piece of the desert follows her around for all the days she has left early, turning the local ground of Creation around her into Cecelynian desert until the full five days has passed thus disappearing when you should've left the desert and thus you haven't actually "left" the desert, because the desert hasn't left you yet.

5. the location temporarily appears within the Endless Desert and it disappears once the Sidereal concludes their business concerning the deadline there so that the Sidereal can continue walking through the desert until five days has passed.

to be honest though, 2 or 3 is the most probable.

[golentan]

....hm, possibilities:

1. the charm simply overrides Cecelynes attempts to make it five days to cross

2. the charm changes the deadline so that its always at the end of the five days

3. there is a clause in the pacts that bind Cecelyne to make an exception for Sidereals with Yellow Path

4. a piece of the desert follows her around for all the days she has left early, turning the local ground of Creation around her into Cecelynian desert until the full five days has passed thus disappearing when you should've left the desert and thus you haven't actually "left" the desert, because the desert hasn't left you yet.

5. the location temporarily appears within the Endless Desert and it disappears once the Sidereal concludes their business concerning the deadline there so that the Sidereal can continue walking through the desert until five days has passed.

to be honest though, 2 or 3 is the most probable.

6) the power of the Yellow Path is contested by the Power of the Yozi. Essence roll off to see which wins, most likely with bonus successes on Cecelyne's side. Chejop and Anys might make it on time, others probably not.

[Sith_Happens]

Or,

7. It takes five days of subjective time to cross Cecelyne, but once you're across only enough objective time has passed for you to just barely make it to your appointment on time.

[TimeWizard]

I vaguely remember an Ink Monkeys or Dev comment that if you used a charm to send some to Malfeas (I think you could punch them into any location, probably Sidereal), their body has to wait 5 days for Time to catch up with them.

Edit: I would also make the Yellow Path contested. In this case you are using it to oppose another charm.

[Andreaz]

Or,

7. It takes five days of subjective time to cross Cecelyne, but once you're across only enough objective time has passed for you to just barely make it to your appointment on time.

Which makes the 5-days restriction just as irrelevant as bypassing it completely. Because it's the same thing.

Let's just stick to 6. Cecelyne contests it and good luck beating 10 dice + 20 successes.

[Lanaya]

Which makes the 5-days restriction just as irrelevant as bypassing it completely. Because it's the same thing.

Not exactly. It means that you need to survive five days in Cecelyne, and it makes it much less convenient for the Sidereal in question. That might not bother players who are happy to put their characters through any amount of pain and suffering as long as it's mechanically optimal, but it would at least have the in-setting effect of making Sidereals less likely to bother coming to Malfeas unless they have a really good reason.