General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[golentan]

Hey, if anyone is interested in a low-pressure, post when you can Alchemicals game set in Gulak and hosted on Mythweavers... shoot me a PM, I'll give more details.

[Sith_Happens]

Hey, if anyone is interested in a low-pressure, post when you can Alchemicals game set in Gulak and hosted on Mythweavers... shoot me a PM, I'll give more details.

Edition? This space intentionally left blank.

[golentan]

Edition? This space intentionally left blank.

2.5 with some carryovers from 3e (Evocations and sorcerous... err... protocol motes gathered by shaping actions rather than paid out-of-pocket, as the most prominent).

Evocations increase the cost of an artifact which can use them by 2 dots.

[Sith_Happens]

So the following Charm idea just popped into my head and I'm wondering if it's strong enough or if I need to add another effect or two:

AIR OF DIGNITY MEDITATION
Cost: --; Mins: Socialize 4, Essence 1
Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Mastery of Small Manners

The Solar's impeccable poise infuses even minor, everyday interactions; she may always attempt Socialize-based social influence actions, even in casual situations. Additionally, the Solar may apply her Socialize specialties to social influence rolls made with any Ability, so long as she justifies the specialty's use as normal.

[Serafina]

It's arguably too strong, because it allows you to replace Presence and Performance with Socialize.

Performance requires you to, well, perform. Even the Oratory application requires you to talk for a longer amount of time to an audience and doesn't quite replace Presence.
Presence is easy to apply, but struggles with large-scale applications and subtlety.
Socialize is actually mostly a defensive ability and used for read intentions, but can be used in formal situations to influence people - subtly, and possibly whole groups.

Your charm just allows you to use Socialize all the time.
Instead of influencing people during a casual gathering with a performance, you can now just use Socialize despite the casual nature of the event.
Instead of using Presence to charm an informant, you can now just use Socialize.

Now granted, the Charms of Socialize are not as strong as those of Presence or Performance for influencing people.
However, not everyone can heavily invest into everything. This charm makes it really easy for a character to just get high Socialize - for good Guile and Read Intentions - and then also use it to actually influence people without buying a second ability.

Basically, you can compare this Charm to one that 'd allow you to attack with your Dodge.
I'd really not recommend using it. It may not be too strong for a social specialist (those will still want Presence, Performance or both) but it's really strong for everyone else.


I do like the Speciality part however. But I'd actually like to recommend you a house rule for this.

Many beings in Creation like to perform their actions with a certain flair and style, and are particularly potent if they do so.
These Flairs represent situations in which a character is particularly comfortable. A Flair must be something spectacular - either a specific sort of situation, or a distinct way to perform an action. Examples include "Flowing motions", "during a storm", "for friendship" or "while meditating". Many martial arts styles can be inspiration for Flairs, but the two are otherwise different mechanics.

A player can use Flairs to describe how their character acts, similar to stunts. When a characters action is described in accordance with their flair, they gain a bonus dice to their action. However, this only applies if the description of the action would qualify as a stunt (of any grade), and if it properly includes the Flair. As with stunts, repetitive descriptions can prevent this bonus from being awarded. For further details, see Stunts (p. XXX).
A Flair can be used to enhance any action to which it can reasonably apply - for example, it would be difficult to apply fluid motions to a Survival-action or a Lore-check.

Flairs replace Specialties. Player characters receive Flairs in place of Specialties (4 at character creation for Solars) and can buy them for the same cost as Specialties (1 BP or 3 XP)

This basically gives you Specialties that can be applied to every ability, but only if you stunt with them.
I've actually have found this to be great for both newer and experienced players. For newer players, it's a nice guide to give them ideas for stunts. For experienced players, it allows them to craft a strong theme for their character and rewards them mechanically.

This system could basically replace the second part of your charm. If a player would have a Socialize-specialty of "rich people", this could now be a Flair "interacting with rich people". Both represent that the character is good at interacting with rich people (maybe the character is themselves rich, or grew up as a servant to a rich family, or is just experienced in exploiting their worldviews etc.), but the latter can also be applied to Bureaucracy (say, while working out a contract), Integrity (resisting offers), Investigation, Larceny (making a fitting disguise or pickpocketing), Linguistics (writing a letter to a rich person), Performance or Presence. The player just has to be creative and work their characters experience into a stunt.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's arguably too strong, because it allows you to replace Presence and Performance with Socialize.

I'm inclined to agree. At the very least there should be a mote cost for doing so, and probably a higher Essence requirement. Maybe attach the effect to Mastery of Small Manners, maybe count the additional dice as charm dice, I dunno. "Use one skill in place of two others" is generally too good.

[Katrina]

I ask here because I have found it being mentioned and I was never able to find an official response.

How do Yasal Crystals actually work? I have heard three different answers while I was looking into this, each somehow more mechanically broken than the last.

Explanation 1: Most Restrictive. The Exalt in possession of the Crystal can spend her own Essence motes to activate the Spirit's charms as if the spirit was using the charm on the Exalt's behalf. This does not allow the Exalt to use any charm that affects the spirit only. This also uses the Spirit's traits and Dice Caps for those charms.

Explantion 2: ??? The Exalt may pay Essence motes to use the spirit's charms as if they knew those charms themselves, using the Exalt's attributes and so forth to set Dice Caps, but still obeying the "Maximum Dice Added due to Charms" of a Spirit of the Exalt's Virtue ratings.

Explanation 3: Crazy. The Exalt may command the spirit to use the charm on his behalf. The Spirit pays the Essence Cost and uses its traits to determine the effects and caps of a charm, but may use any charm desired by its user.

So it goes from "You pay the cost and you can't benefit from most of their charms anyway" to "They are portable Essence and Charm factories." o.o' I do not know which one should be considered canonical.

[Kobold-Bard]

I ask here because I have found it being mentioned and I was never able to find an official response.

How do Yasal Crystals actually work? I have heard three different answers while I was looking into this, each somehow more mechanically broken than the last.

Explanation 1: Most Restrictive. The Exalt in possession of the Crystal can spend her own Essence motes to activate the Spirit's charms as if the spirit was using the charm on the Exalt's behalf. This does not allow the Exalt to use any charm that affects the spirit only. This also uses the Spirit's traits and Dice Caps for those charms.

Explantion 2: ??? The Exalt may pay Essence motes to use the spirit's charms as if they knew those charms themselves, using the Exalt's attributes and so forth to set Dice Caps, but still obeying the "Maximum Dice Added due to Charms" of a Spirit of the Exalt's Virtue ratings.

Explanation 3: Crazy. The Exalt may command the spirit to use the charm on his behalf. The Spirit pays the Essence Cost and uses its traits to determine the effects and caps of a charm, but may use any charm desired by its user.

So it goes from "You pay the cost and you can't benefit from most of their charms anyway" to "They are portable Essence and Charm factories." o.o' I do not know which one should be considered canonical.

2 is the closest, but not quite. You or the spirit may pay the motes to use the charms (since they don't require attunement, mortals must be able to use them without essence pools o their own). You may use any of their charms, including ones that only affect Self. However you are limited by the spirit's attributes, so if a charm says it addes 6 but your dicepool is 8, it still only adds 6.

I think.

[TheCountAlucard]

The spirit still has to be willing to play ball either way.

[Sith_Happens]

Very belated reply because I forgot:

It's arguably too strong, because it allows you to replace Presence and Performance with Socialize.

I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that it can replace Performance but that certainly isn't intended; if you're trying to sing or give a speech or whatnot then by definition that's still going to require a Performance roll.

Basically, you can compare this Charm to one that 'd allow you to attack with your Dodge.

Actually, now that you've made me think about it there should be a Charm to let you attack with Dodge. You already don't need a Charm to defend with Brawl, Melee, or Martial Arts, after all, and at least 90+% of the time the only thing you're missing out on in combat by not having any Dodge is disengaging (and even then Dexterity 5 and a stunt will get you a long way against most mortals).

That said, I'll still consider a mote cost for Air of Dignity Meditation if I ever submit it in an actual game, though if so it'll be a very low one.

How do Yasal Crystals actually work? I have heard three different answers while I was looking into this, each somehow more mechanically broken than the last.

Given the reference to Virtues I assume you're talking about 2e, but I'd still like to note that in 3e it's explicitly #2:

Spoiler: Evidence

Show

Once imprisoned in yasal crystal, spirits can communicate with anyone who touches the stone, but they cannot escape on their own or use any of their Charms. Instead, whoever touches the stone can use a captive spirit’s powers as if they were his own, if the holder of the stone has the spirit’s permission.

The spirit still has to be willing to play ball either way.

1. Be a sorcerer.
2. ???
3. Profit.

[Katrina]

The question was originally for 2nd Edition, but the tradition of vague wording made it also applicable to 3rd Edition. So basically, you or the spirit pays the motes and the spirit uses the charm using its attributes. In 3rd, this is moot since they do most things as QCs and the dice pools are simply given rather than labeled out, but useful if I ever play 2.5 again. Thanks guys.

3rd has me pretty psyched, still waiting for more books to actually play it because my party is almost certain to call down a Wyld Hunt almost immediately. x.x'

Oh, and just to assauge my own sense of game balance, I want to throw this one at you guys. If a character wanted to be strongly tied to a pirate crew in the West but not actually a member, what do you think the best way of doing his backgrounds would be? My answer was that he should take the Captain of the crew as an Ally, only one dot since its a mortal captain and mortal crew. I had a player argue that he should be able to do it with Influence 1: (Wu Jian) and backstory. Opinions?

[Sith_Happens]

Once again, which edition?

[The_Snark]

I'm guessing 2nd, since she mentioned she's waiting for more books before playing 3rd, but I don't think it matters: Allies and Influence stayed basically the same.

Ally seems like the more straightforward way to do it, to me. Influence would also fit, but it seems like it represents people in Wu Jian knowing that you're affiliated with said captain, rather than the relationship itself.

[Katrina]

Don't remember Wu Jian being in Second edition, but I could have overlooked a section in the West book.
That question was for third, but as The_Snark said, neither trait changes much from edition to edition. It came up when we were building characters for third, but before my player base basically noped out until the Dragon-Blooded book came out so that they knew what they were dealing with. I believe the sample fight we did between one of the player's Dawn Caste and the example "young Dragonblood" from the book discouraged them. It shouldn't have, as I was rolling very well that fight. One will not normally see five Withering damage come up tens. o.o'

[Sith_Happens]

So I'm hopefully going to be running an EX3 campaign for my IRL gaming group pretty soon, and in case one or two of the players really want to be Lunars (which I've already said I'd consider allowing) I need to know: how exactly do Lunars' Caste and Favored Attributes work in 2e so I can work out a port, and do they get any Favored Abilities (and if so how many)?

(Before anyone says anything, I've already found a 3e Lunar homebrew I like enough to potentially use, the only problem is that it's just the Charms which is why I need to ask about char-gen details.)

EDIT: Second, unrelated question: does building a manse preclude a Wild-born hearthstone from forming within that demense? And if not, then will that hearthstone bestow the benefits of standing within the manse while socketed in an artifact?

[SaurOps]

So I'm hopefully going to be running an EX3 campaign for my IRL gaming group pretty soon, and in case one or two of the players really want to be Lunars (which I've already said I'd consider allowing) I need to know: how exactly do Lunars' Caste and Favored Attributes work in 2e so I can work out a port, and do they get any Favored Abilities (and if so how many)?

Three Caste Attributes, one favored. 2e Lunar chargen was actually kind of nerfed from 1e, where they straight up got 9/7/5 for Attributes. Sure, 2e ever so graciously gave one Favored Attribute instead of five favored abilities, but it didn't want to make the Solars feel bad, so only gave them one Attribute dot over, instead of one in each category, which is actually necessary because of how demanding the Attribute mins can be.

[The_Snark]

2e's Lunar character generation originally featured the 9/7/5 Attribute spread, but was apparently changed in editing. The original version (details here) is a pretty popular houserule.

The bits relevant to a 3e version of Lunars would be: they get 9/7/5 Attribute dots in each category rather than the standard 8/6/4, they pick two Caste Attributes from their caste's list (Full Moon = Physical, Changing Moon = Social, No Moon = Mental) and two Favored Attributes which can be anything you like. They have Survival as an automatic Favored Ability - people who don't like emphasizing Lunars as barbarians/close to the wilderness sometimes drop this - plus one other of their choice. Everything else is more or less the same as Solars, I believe.

The effects of a Caste or Favored Attribute were pretty much the same as Favored Abilities: costs less to raise (3 bonus points rather than 4, 3 x old rating instead of 4 x old rating) and takes less time to train, Charms cost 2 xp less and take less time to train... and in 3e they should get free Attribute Excellencies the same way Solars get free Ability Excellencies.

I have no idea if they should get a Supernal Attribute or some equivalent, 2e didn't feature anything like those. Gut instinct is that a Supernal Attribute would be more powerful than a Supernal Ability (you get the benefit on 1/9th of available Charms, rather than 1/25th), so probably better to improvise. Maybe something like "count your Essence as 1 higher for the purposes of Charms in your Caste Attributes", that's less raw power (no starting with Essence 5 capstones) but more versatile (you can start with E2 Charms from several Attributes instead of having to pick just one).

You'll probably have to invent your own anima powers; might be able to draw inspiration from the old ones, but none of the rules would translate well. Full Moons got a boost to movement speed and jumping, Changing Moons could whip up short-lived illusionary disguises or render themselves unrecognizable a la the Night anima, and No Moons got some very minor benefits to sorcery and dimmed the area around them.

[Sith_Happens]

Thanks. Definitely no Supernal Attribute, my educated guess is that Supernal Abilities are Solars'/Abyssals' "thing" the same way shapeshifting is Lunars' and making players' brains melt is Sidereals' ().

Oh, and the homebrew I'm probably using does also have anima powers, I just didn't remember at first.

[Grytorm]

Aagh. I know that Exalted, especially 2nd edition, is a little wonky. And I shouldn't invest when a new is coming together. But I found the splatbooks for Dragonblooded, Lunars and Abyssals. On sale. And I am tempted to get them needlessly potentially drawing me into another gameline. So tempting. So useful.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Aagh. I know that Exalted, especially 2nd edition, is a little wonky. And I shouldn't invest when a new is coming together. But I found the splatbooks for Dragonblooded, Lunars and Abyssals. On sale. And I am tempted to get them needlessly potentially drawing me into another gameline. So tempting. So useful.

3rd edition is out now, for what that's worth.

[Sith_Happens]

3rd edition is out now, for what that's worth.

Just not any of those three parts of it.

[SaurOps]

Just not any of those three parts of it.

Then again, the MoEPs for Abyssals, Dragon-Blooded, and Lunars were terrible, so you wouldn't be missing much by not having them.

(And MoEP: Sidereals, taken alongside Scroll of the Monk, is an absolute abomination).

[HalfTangible]

Then again, the MoEPs for Abyssals, Dragon-Blooded, and Lunars were terrible, so you wouldn't be missing much by not having them.

(And MoEP: Sidereals, taken alongside Scroll of the Monk, is an absolute abomination).

The Lunar splat is the only one of those that I've read and I was appalled. It made them sound like the worst thing in the world.

[Grytorm]

Good to hear, I guess I can resist now. Are there any actual sourcebooks that aren't terrible?

[Sith_Happens]

Good to hear, I guess I can resist now. Are there any actual sourcebooks that aren't terrible?

Yes: Exalted 3rd Edition and Miracles of the Solar Exalted.

[Lord Raziere]

Good to hear, I guess I can resist now. Are there any actual sourcebooks that aren't terrible?

Yes its called Godbound Deluxe or Blood and Fire.....

For serious though, 2nd edition is widely regarded as Worst Edition of Exalted, but there are things good about it.

Shards of the Exalted Dream for example. Compass: Autochthonia. Manual of Exalted Power: Alchemicals. all are pretty late into the line though and don't get much play because they deal with non-main game stuff that most players don't seem to like, such as anything to do with high technology being everywhere or Exalt types not named "Solar" or "Dragon Blooded".

The Black and White Treatises (don't let the name fool you, they're one book) are good in that sorcery and necromancy aren't all that broken or anything, they're what they are meant to accomplish.

Oadenol's Codex is widely considered non-horrible for its treatment of artifacts as well, artifacts. To be honest I'd say how Oadenol's Codex handles artifact creation is better than how 3e handles it. because at least Oadenol's Codex makes sense as a magical mystical quest for something epic rather than having to go through various stuff that has nothing to do with that.

Both Rolls of Glorious Divinity are good, they accomplish wheat they are meant to with spirits.

Masters of Jade is regarded as good for its treatment of the Guild and having a non-terrible economic/political conflict resolution system.

.......and pretty much everything else falls into the terrible pile for one reason or another, whether it be because of fluff problems, mechanical problems or both. To list them would take a post unto itself, your better off just not getting into the problems of 2e....they're many and maddening.

and to be honest, the 3e stuff other than Solars.....still hasn't come out yet. Not even DB's. So your going to have to wait for anything other than Solars there. like, if I remember, Exalted 3e came out last year? and the DB book still hasn't dropped? Yeeeeaaaah......just being honest: if you want the actual game in its current edition and not any fan stuff made to be rules light/heartbreakers, your going to have to wait a while.

[Sith_Happens]

Question: for those newly-Exalted Solars who get spoken to by the UCS (e.g.- every Zenith), do they necessarily know or become aware that it's the UCS or is it just "Some godly voice in my head?"

[The_Snark]

Some of the Compass of Terrestrial Directions books, which were devoted to describing parts of the setting, were pretty good: I'm fond of the books devoted to West and South myself, and a lot of people seem to think North was good too (I was lukewarm on that one). The Compass of Celestial Directions series focused on more exotic realms, so they tend to be more niche, but the one focusing on the Blessed Isle is useful for any game focusing on the Realm, and the ones describing Autochthonia and Malfeas are interesting (albeit less likely to see use).

These are all pretty edition-agnostic; the last chapter is devoted to stat blocks for NPCs, spirits and beasts of the relevant region, but that's just about the only part that cares what rules you're using.

[SaurOps]

Good to hear, I guess I can resist now. Are there any actual sourcebooks that aren't terrible?

Shards, the Autochthonian material (Exalted Manual and Celestial Compass 6), and Masters of Jade. A definite maybe on Glories of the Most High, since it's still covered in 2e-isms like thaumaturgy for every last task or thing there is, too close a connection between Luna and the Wyld/fae, Samsara, and too much focus on cosmic affairs over being an adventure game. I'd stay away from anything else, with the caveat that you might find a conceptual gem or two digging in the pile. It's going to be very costly in time and money, though. And fire trees being turned into pon farr dispensaries. Totally dodged a bullet by not getting the East book, there.

[Ronnoc]

Good to hear, I guess I can resist now. Are there any actual sourcebooks that aren't terrible?

A lot of it depends on what you enjoy. Personaly I very much like the outlander style of play so I love MoEP Infernals/Broken Winged Crane(just skip the first two chapters of the manual) MoEP Sidereals (just make sure to use Errata first last and always.) all the books of sorcery, and most of Ink Monkeys (just remember to ignore anything that you don't like).

Out of the books you listed Dragonblooded are o.k. especially if you want to run a low power game or just to use as easy antagonist fodder for a solar game.