General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[Sith_Happens]

So, any suggestions on how to determine the number and severity of actual casualties to a battle group?

[Guancyto]

Well, holy carp.

So that happened.

Kickstarter update. Some excerpts:

First off, I’m incredibly happy to announce that Eric Minton and Robert Vance have agreed to become the new developers for Exalted 3rd Edition. Eric and Robert have been all over EX3 in various capacities since writing began, and their involvement and love of Exalted goes further back than that.

With their help, we have put together a schedule for releases that starts with getting the Exalted 3rd Jumpstart: Tomb of Dreams out to backers as soon as we can get the finished layout approved by the new White Wolf.

Next, they are finishing up Arms of the Chosen, and we expect to have the Advance PDF ready in three months.

They are also in the process of assigning the remaining writing that needs to be done on the Dragon Blooded and The Realm books.

After a lot of discussion, and a fair bit of soul-searching, we’ve decided that the next two books will be Exigents and Lunars. We love a lot of the books proposed on previous schedules, and think they would really expand and enrich EX3, but we have to start getting our Exalted community the projects they need to play NOW (or close to NOW), rather than multiple years from now.

So what we have planned are two projects that we are going to start releasing in April. That’s right, in order to provide our community with playable material now and not waiting until the Arms of the Chosen Advance PDF is released three months from now, we’re going to be releasing a section of each book each month as PDFs.
The first book, EX3: Antagonists, will feature both individual NPCs as well as antagonist groups. Each section will be smaller than a chapter, and we’ll be combining them all together as a PDF and PoD book after we have made a good number of them available monthly.
The second book will be the EX3 Bestiary, and will features creatures of all power levels. Some will be creatures the writers of the core had to hold back on, and others will be new and determined by what gaps we see from the core book that this project can fill. We’ll release these in monthly sections that we’ll combine at some point into a book, as well.

I would just like to extend a hearty congratulations to Minton and Vance, and express my newfound hope for the future!

[Milo v3]

*blinks*
A bestiary. Yesssssssssssss

[HalfTangible]

....

Okay.

My interest is piqued, Exalted.

Show me what you can do.

[Delta]

So not a single word about Holden and Morke, that doesn't exactly sound like a parting of the way on friendly terms :(

[Xefas]

In other, mechanical, news: Evocations are getting the Martial Arts treatment.

Future Artifacts will have Evocations with the Resonant and Dissonant Keywords. These work like Mastery and Terrestrial do for Martial Arts Charms. Resonant Evocations have bonus power for creatures that fit the Artifact's resonance specifications, while Dissonant Evocations are weakened for creatures that fit the Artifact's dissonant specifications.

For example, Solars are Resonant with everything. Lunars are Resonant with Moonsilver, but not Dissonant with any other Material. Sidereals are Resonant with Starmetal, but Dissonant with artifacts made of any other Magical Material. Other examples are given in the excerpt, though it is not all-inclusive.

Some Artifacts may have conditions for a creature to Resonate with them that do not deal with the material they're made out of. No example is given. But perhaps imagine a demonic artifact that Resonates with demons and those that have been initiated into Sorcery via a demon's pact. Something like that? Maybe?

Anyway. Sounds neat. TDO is in (co-)charge now. Probably a good sign.

[AmberVael]

I would just like to extend a hearty congratulations to Minton and Vance, and express my newfound hope for the future!

By contrast, I'd like to extend my sympathies and concern. My suspicion is that the Exalted team needs a more substantial change than a developer replacement, and that they're taking on an excessively demanding task.

But, we'll see. I certainly don't know much of what's going on over there, after all.

[Beans]

This could be crispy indeed. Eyebrows raised. Knees weak. Arms heavy. There's Essence on my sweater already (MOM'S SPAGHETTI).

More seriously, I like Robert and Eric. This will hopefully be A Good.

[Delta]

My suspicion is that the Exalted team needs a more substantial change than a developer replacement, and that they're taking on an excessively demanding task.

Honest curiosity: What could be a more substantial change than this? (save for things like scrapping the whole line or edition)

[AmberVael]

Honest curiosity: What could be a more substantial change than this? (save for things like scrapping the whole line or edition)

A significant change in how the team is structured and populated.

Changing developers... it does mean a difference, in vision, in approach, but it doesn't change the way the Exalted team is set up. Unless something has changed since I last heard about it, they're a team of freelance writers. They don't get a regular wage, they get paid flat rates by word or by book, and they're brought on because of their writing ability. Its fairly standard for the industry, but the scope of most publishers and developers is much smaller and more manageable. By contrast, Exalted is a massive, ambitious game. It has systems, and systems within those systems, and a world that historically has been given entire series of books all on its own.

I don't doubt Eric and Vance's ability to write all that. What I doubt is their ability to write all that, be project managers, be editors, and be public relations people all at once. That's the role I saw their predecessors fall into. Or roles, more accurately, because putting all that on one person is absurd. And that's what I mean by a substantial change. Realistically, Exalted needs more devoted to it than a team of freelance writers. It needs a project manager, editors, community managers, and more. That way, the writers can be writers and do what they do best, while all these other tasks are handled by people who are selected for those roles and have time to specifically devote to that.

Not having all that support structure, just putting a ton of writers together and expecting it to work out, is major pitfall that tabletop publishers can fall into. And while its possible for a devoted team to deliver in spite of that, its certainly not fair to them.

[Delta]

If I understand you correctly, you're basically asking for a large group of full-time employed Exalted writers which is simply impossible. RPGs do not work that way, even those with way, way bigger budgets than anything OP could ever handle usually only have a very small core of employed writers, if that. Writing RPGs has always been mostly freelance work.

So basically what you ask for is for Exalted to become something on the level of D&D3.x at the very least as far as manpower and budget is concerned, that's just not a realistic prospect.

[Grod_The_Giant]

*blinks*
A bestiary. Yesssssssssssss

I know, right? Holy crap! The one thing the edition needed more than anything else!

[AmberVael]

If I understand you correctly, you're basically asking for a large group of full-time employed Exalted writers which is simply impossible. RPGs do not work that way, even those with way, way bigger budgets than anything OP could ever handle usually only have a very small core of employed writers, if that. Writing RPGs has always been mostly freelance work.

So basically what you ask for is for Exalted to become something on the level of D&D3.x at the very least as far as manpower and budget is concerned, that's just not a realistic prospect.

I'm not asking for it, I'm saying that the scope of the project needs something more like that to work. They're attempting to make something on the same level as these other massive systems, and in order for it to not fall apart, it needs to be handled in a similar fashion.

But no, I'm not saying a large group of full-time employed Exalted writers. Rather, the team needs to be diversified and well structured. Exalted isn't the biggest name, but its far from a small one, yet its being organized and staffed identically to very tiny projects and publishers. That's just really not the way to handle it. Even if they brought in a few people, heck, two or even one, to handle more management issues, I think things could be drastically improved.

I'm part of this system. I've been a writer, an editor, a project manager. So I kinda get how it goes, and when I look at whats going on here, I see familiar and not terribly encouraging things.

[Delta]

Well there's no arguing that their approach for Ex3 was simply at least somewhat too ambitious for the resources at their disposal, I think the fact that it's five years after the edition was first announced and we're still waiting for the second book is proof enough of that (yes, I know they were more issues than that, but look at the sheer size and scale of the thing, this was never going to be on time)

The thing is, even having two developers is more than other OP projects have, I'm pretty sure Rich is quite ready and willing to give Exalted all the support OP is able to, but it's just not realistic to hope for significantly more funds and manpower going into that line any time soon because it's simply not there.

And let's be honest, you can get a lot more done with two freelance developers and a couple more freelance writers than what has been done with Exalted in the last five years. I'm not playing the blame game here, I can't even begin to imagine what it must've been like handling the personal issues we know about during that time, and I'd wager there was a lot more we do not know about.

But at the end of the day, the resources OP put into Exalted should've been enough to have at the very least Arms of the Chosen and the DB/Realm books out by now considering how long the core has been done, so I wouldn't say it's necessarily an issue of OPs approach to the line (to which I simply don't see a viable alternative), it simply wasn't working out with Holden and Morke at the helm, much as it saddens me to say it.

[Tyrrell]

So not a single word about Holden and Morke, that doesn't exactly sound like a parting of the way on friendly terms :(

Here's what they said about Holden and Morke.

Obviously, this whole message hasn’t delved into the nitty-gritty of what brought us here, and we really don’t intend to. Instead, we are celebrating a new team of creators, as well as the monumental work that John Morke and Holden Shearer were able to accomplish through some incredibly grueling times for them personally. What glories the future holds!

Make of that what you will. I think that writing more about them in either praise or condemnation would be less professional than abstaining from doing so.

Also here is a preview of Arms of the Chosen courtesy of the new development team
Arms of the chosen preview

(....and Xephas ninja'd me)

[DrakeRaids]

This has my attention. We'll see what happens in the future, but it relaxes my concerns that Exalted was going to get cut altogether, at least.

[HalfTangible]

Here's what they said about Holden and Morke.



Make of that what you will. I think that writing more about them in either praise or condemnation would be less professional than abstaining from doping so.

Also here is a preview of Arms of the Chosen courtesy of the new development team
Arms of the chosen preview

(....and Xephas ninja'd me)

... I had this mental image of my dawn sheathing her sword in the middle of a hurricane.

Stormcaller has finally made evocations click for me.

[Lord Raziere]

Hm.

I wonder if I somehow combine my idea of a Referential Cosplay Style with Evocations..... perhaps in Exalted its a Sidereal Martial Art that allows you take Resonant Evocations with anything but only as long they as they make a reference and hold themselves to that reference.....

[Deffers]

Huh. So that's an upset. I wonder if this'll change things.

EDIT: Infernals still on the back burner, but Exigents now though. Hrm.

[Xefas]

I dunno how many of you guys are following TDO's dev talk, but I figured I might transcribe some tidbits that could be used for discussion here.

• Lunar themes: Predation, rage, also shapeshifting. Maybe in that order? Link 1 Link 2
  
• Dragonblooded probably won't have a Limit track. (see Link 2 above)
  
• We gun get some Dragonblooded previews. Link 1 Link 2
  
• Mortal Martial Artists might get something someday. Link
  
• No Aspect surcharge for Dragonblooded. Their Charms will cost the same as Solars, and be more dense, but weaker. Link
  
• Sidereals all have Martial Arts as a free Favored Ability, but not Brawl. Brawl is now a Chosen of Battles Caste Ability, and Athletics was moved from Battles to Endings. Link
  
• Bronze/Gold Faction will be a more subtle influence in Heaven, rather than angry political parties with like hats and t-shirts and stuff. Link
  
• The Dragonblooded book will have all five Immaculate Styles properly fleshed out, but also three as-yet-to-be-determined Terrestrial styles from prior editions. Who here is hoping for Orgiastic Fugitive? Link

[Guancyto]

Forget where I saw it, but the other Lunar theme is Symbiosis. It's the theme for the justicar, for the guardian beast, for the spider in the web and the mad scientist and other things like that. A very welcome addition to counter any notion that Lunars are simply going to be slavering rage-monsters!

By contrast, I'd like to extend my sympathies and concern. My suspicion is that the Exalted team needs a more substantial change than a developer replacement, and that they're taking on an excessively demanding task.

But, we'll see. I certainly don't know much of what's going on over there, after all.

You make a lot of good points to temper optimism. It's easy to think that because we love Vance and Minton so much that of course they'll deliver, which isn't necessarily so.

I feel like Antagonists/Bestiary, being smaller, denser, more easily-handled books released more frequently seems like a step in the right direction, though?

[Milo v3]

I feel like Antagonists/Bestiary, being smaller, denser, more easily-handled books released more frequently seems like a step in the right direction, though?

Also remember that those are being written by other people, so that small amounts of Exalted content is still while they're busy finishing work on the big stuff like Dragonblooded. So they shouldn't slow down work on the other books at all.

[tonberrian]

Keeping my head under a rock, what happened to Holden and Morke?

[SaurOps]

Forget where I saw it, but the other Lunar theme is Symbiosis. It's the theme for the justicar, for the guardian beast, for the spider in the web and the mad scientist and other things like that. A very welcome addition to counter any notion that Lunars are simply going to be slavering rage-monsters!

That was never really a notion of substance, though. People just saw the materials released thus far and got unnecessarily spooked. There were already a number of efforts by the past developers to get this across, stretching back to Masters of Jade, when the concept of "Lunars are wearing down the Dragon-Blooded to counter the advantages of the Dragon-Blooded squatting in ancient fortresses of power" was introduced.

[Milo v3]

Keeping my head under a rock, what happened to Holden and Morke?

I haven't seen word from them or about them aside from someone saying "On fb- Holden noted he was going to do do his own thing on Patreon for a while." and a lot of people (including Minton and Vance) making appreciation posts about Holden and Morkes work.

[Sith_Happens]

Funny story, I finished writing out an Evocation tree for a player's five-dot daiklave just before the Arms preview so now I keep having to tell myself that updating it with Resonant and Dissonant effects isn't actually necessary. >.<

Keeping my head under a rock, what happened to Holden and Morke?

No word yet, they might still be writing for EX3 or they might not.

[SaurOps]

No word yet, they might still be writing for EX3 or they might not.

Their posts on twitter indicate that the latter is an unfortunate certainty.

[Drascin]

I'm not asking for it, I'm saying that the scope of the project needs something more like that to work. They're attempting to make something on the same level as these other massive systems, and in order for it to not fall apart, it needs to be handled in a similar fashion.

But no, I'm not saying a large group of full-time employed Exalted writers. Rather, the team needs to be diversified and well structured. Exalted isn't the biggest name, but its far from a small one, yet its being organized and staffed identically to very tiny projects and publishers. That's just really not the way to handle it. Even if they brought in a few people, heck, two or even one, to handle more management issues, I think things could be drastically improved.

I'm part of this system. I've been a writer, an editor, a project manager. So I kinda get how it goes, and when I look at whats going on here, I see familiar and not terribly encouraging things.

Yeah, basically, Exalted needs a bigger team, and a project manager that can BE a project manager, rather than either one of the freelancers that have plenty work to do with, you know, writing everything, or whatever the heck RichT is supposed to be.

Exalted is a big line. It's not quite D&D, but it's big. Two dudes can't write a line this large AND also take care of all the other stuff involved with testing, management, and the like.

[Xefas]

No word yet, they might still be writing for EX3 or they might not.

If Holden's recent talk on the IRC is anything to go by, they're certainly not.

Something about not being paid for Miracles of the Solar Exalted before being fired, among other things, and not wanting to put up with RichT anymore. The word "stealing" was used. I don't think the break was as amiable as Exalted fans want it to have been.

Spoiler

Show

[00:26:35] <Holden_EX3> Fun fact: we weren't paid for developing any material that didn't make it to the final version of the book
[00:26:44] <Holden_EX3> (EX3 used a per-word developer rate)
[00:27:06] <Holden_EX3> anyone want to make a wager on whether I see anything for the cut material I originally developed? X)
[00:27:45] <Holden_EX3> yeah, me either
[00:28:27] <Mobius> Is that an industry norm?
[00:28:41] <Serah> That sounds silly.
[00:29:18] <KJ> I'm not sure there's an industry norm for having material, cutting it, switching developers and then reusing it
[00:29:47] <Mobius> Man, I seriously hope they aren't that audacious.
[00:47:30] <Holden_EX3> firing someone and stealing their work is not the industry norm, no

[Milo v3]

<Holden_EX3> (EX3 used a per-word developer rate)
<Mobius> Is that an industry norm?

Yes. Yes it is. Onyx Path is not being horrible by paying per word.

Now, if they do print the cut content in future books, then they should get paid for those words. But that's a separate thing.