General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[Exthalion]

The reason people dislike that meme is because it led to the perception that gods are walking hunks of starmetal walking around until some sid decides they need a new auspicious ashtray or something, at which point they will be promptly murdered on trumped up charges. This detracts from the presentation that gods are individuals with agency, desires of their own, significant power and connections, and should be more than a source of resources.

The same reason was applied to the calcanth rules, which reduces demons from interesting characters in their own right to artifact components. All that spiritual pageantry about X being the indulgent soul of Y and all that is wasted words when X is now a fashionable broach and Y is being annealed with the hull of someones new doomship.

[Gensh]

The reason people dislike that meme is because it led to the perception that gods are walking hunks of starmetal walking around until some sid decides they need a new auspicious ashtray or something, at which point they will be promptly murdered on trumped up charges. This detracts from the presentation that gods are individuals with agency, desires of their own, significant power and connections, and should be more than a source of resources.

The same reason was applied to the calcanth rules, which reduces demons from interesting characters in their own right to artifact components. All that spiritual pageantry about X being the indulgent soul of Y and all that is wasted words when X is now a fashionable broach and Y is being annealed with the hull of someones new doomship.

Really, this is more a problem related to second edition. Gods and demons weren't ever really respected to begin with, since Bloodbath and Beyond can clear a room of them without breaking a sweat. The idea of using defeated enemies to forge new iconic equipment is an excellent theme. Even drinking living wine made of first circle demons works out great! It's just that such occasions should be rare and given their proper respect instead of the Dark Souls "I need to kill this boss X more times to get all his equipment."

[Rater202]

The way I understand it is when a God dies, their star falls from the heavens.

Themetal of the star can then be harvested.

I really hope that's not going to change, becuase that's cool, and really,if you're gonna take that away, you might as well change Soul Steel to something else too, since well, by the Logic that "Star Metal makes gods walking chinks of loot," Soul Steel does the same to ghosts.

There are a few lines that corrupt Siddies have minor gods executed on trumped up charges when the soul steal reserves are running low, but, well, just drop that as a setting element. Siddies are getting changed from being "The bronze faction is obviously evil." So no reason that trumped up god trials can't be dropped.

And to be honest, "Weapon made from the earthly remains of a deceased deity" is a concept that's too rich to drop.

One of my first concepts, for when I found out about Exigents, was "Chosen of the guardian deity of a school of swordsmanship. The school was destroyed by a wild hunt, because the master of the school was a Solar. The Guardian Deity of the School wants revenge, so he found a mortal warrior with a grudge against the realm, turned them into an Exigent, and intentionally put too much into the Exigency, dying in the process. The Guardian Deity of the Swordschool then arranged for is friend, a forge god, to collect his star metal and forge it into a Daiklave for his Champion."

[Telwar]

The reason people dislike that meme is because it led to the perception that gods are walking hunks of starmetal walking around until some sid decides they need a new auspicious ashtray or something, at which point they will be promptly murdered on trumped up charges. This detracts from the presentation that gods are individuals with agency, desires of their own, significant power and connections, and should be more than a source of resources.

...I honestly don't see the problem.

Seriously, not trolling or anything. Given that they're fictional characters, having a possibility of a god being turned into a magical material if you piss someone (not *just* a sidereal) off enough doesn't bother me, given this is a setting where it's considered only mildly troubling that mortals get regularly sold for profit to monsters outside of and inimical to all of Creation itself.

Was it truly that common that PC troupes would go through Heaven shoving every god they could find into the Starmetal Factory that the current authors thought that was bad? Seriously?

[Kobold-Bard]

The way I understand it is when a God dies, their star falls from the heavens.

Themetal of the star can then be harvested.

I really hope that's not going to change, becuase that's cool, and really,if you're gonna take that away, you might as well change Soul Steel to something else too, since well, by the Logic that "Star Metal makes gods walking chinks of loot," Soul Steel does the same to ghosts.

...

Starmetal is still fallen stars, not necessarily dead Gods though. Soulsteel is the eternal punishment for the souls of those who pissed off the Lords of the Underworld

[Necroticplague]

Starmetal is still fallen stars, not necessarily dead Gods though. Soulsteel is the eternal punishment for the souls of those who pissed off the Lords of the Underworld

Or a different ghost with the right charms.

[SaurOps]

Starmetal is Soulsteel made from gods instead of mortals and the writers can never convince me otherwise.
Jade may be soulsteel made of elementals. Not sure if that would be fun.

Moonsilver is made out of Silver+Wyld+alchemy, like Orichalcum. Thus, it's right there where Lunars are now.

Not anymore, they aren't.

[HalfTangible]

Having symmetry can lead to cool things. For instance, alchemicals having powers somewhat related to the powers of the exalts whose magical material they are made of is interesting. Having all solars use shiny, golden weapons because shiny golden weapons are somehow better for them is silly. Having solars use shiny, golden weapons because solar powers create shiny golden apparitions and more efficiently create shiny-golden-material than glowy-silver-material, deathly-dark-stuff or mostly-not-there-star-stuff can be interesting.

[edit]To continue that line of thinking, Dragon Blooded use Jade because it is the most common magical material by several orders of magnitude. Abyssals use Soulsteel because the things needed to make it are right there in the underworld.

...

I honestly cannot think of a good reason for Sidereals or Lunars to use their magical material that isn't already taken. Any thoughts?

Lunars have ready, easy access to copious amounts of moonsilver since they need it for tattoos. In addition, they are constantly in areas where it'd be easier to make than usual, and it reacts well to their shapeshifting abilities (i seem to recall, in fact, that Moonsilver was the only magical material lunars could shift WITH their bodies, keeping the benefits while still shapechanging)

Sidereals can always find more of their material just by doing their job. (also, my headcanon is that Starmetal is rare, but not as rare as the setting implies; it just seems like it because Sidereals hoard all of it for themselves)

[Guancyto]

Doesn't moonsilver change with you when you transform, generally?

I know Lunars aren't going to be 100% shapechanging any more but that's a crazy useful property for them, especially if they have the psycho witch moon magic to make it more easily.

[golentan]

Doesn't moonsilver change with you when you transform, generally?

I know Lunars aren't going to be 100% shapechanging any more but that's a crazy useful property for them, especially if they have the psycho witch moon magic to make it more easily.

It does. There're even apparently shapeshifting warstriders made of moonsilver: Use a knack to become a wolf or a Roc and reenact various scenes of terror from your favorite game/TV show...

[Rater202]

Doesn't moonsilver change with you when you transform, generally?

I know Lunars aren't going to be 100% shapechanging any more but that's a crazy useful property for them, especially if they have the psycho witch moon magic to make it more easily.

Where did you hear that lunars wouldn't be 100% shapeshifters anymore?

[Exthalion]

Where did you hear that lunars wouldn't be 100% shapeshifters anymore?

DBT doesn't play nice with evocations, and one of the prominent characters in the comic is a Lunar with so many attuned weapons they look like a pair of wings. There is apparently an even better mentor.

[Rater202]

Year, but that doen'st mean that the splat isn't primarily a shapeshifting one.

What we know has Dev quotes saying that Lunars are primarily shifters, and even if it's not the specialty, it's still something that will be useful to have(the example was a "Squishy Wizard*" sorcerer who played trickster against the wyld hunt and then turned itno a bird and flew away when they got too close. Other examples provided were a machinist turning into a mouse to climb into a piece of lost first age technology and manipulate it's tiny parts up close.)

Also, a dev quote says, basically, that if you don't want to shapeshift, don't play a Lunar.


so that's a far cry from "Not 100% Shapeshifters"

[Exthalion]

Year, but that doen'st mean that the splat isn't primarily a shapeshifting one.

What we know has Dev quotes saying that Lunars are primarily shifters, and even if it's not the specialty, it's still something that will be useful to have(the example was a "Squishy Wizard*" sorcerer who played trickster against the wyld hunt and then turned itno a bird and flew away when they got too close. Other examples provided were a machinist turning into a mouse to climb into a piece of lost first age technology and manipulate it's tiny parts up close.)

Also, a dev quote says, basically, that if you don't want to shapeshift, don't play a Lunar.


so that's a far cry from "Not 100% Shapeshifters"

(John Mørke)

It's not exactly about externalization. Because while Sidereal Charms seem external to them, if a Sidereal were to argue that his Charms were an expression of his internalized self I would be inclined to agree with him.

It's about how far your Essence can carry you, and where it goes. Lunars put all of their power into their Charms, and their Charms represent all of their creative, motive energy transitioning into a visible expression of power (like DBT). In essence, Lunars aren't as good at Evocations because their Charms already evoke most of their creative, transformative potential. This is also why they stop at Celestial Circle Sorcery and can't learn Sidereal Martial Arts. It is also why, when a Lunar goes DBT, his Evocations stop working. This also helps us balance Lunars who don't use DBT against Lunars who do.

Emphasis mine.

This implies that Lunars who do not go DBT, and shapeshifting in general, will still have access to avenues of power at least comparable in some way to those lunars who do.

[Rater202]

All that says is that Lunars don't have to use one specific type of shapeshiftingDeadly Beast Man) if they don't want to. Not that there are lunars who don't shapeshift at all.

We have other quotes that say that all Lunars are shapeshifters.

Q: Out of the deluge of questions...I really have one about Exalted 3e that's burning for me. My selfish one What is changing about the Lunars, even if only in rough, how are you improving them? (Mostlyjoe)
A: They are going to be devastatingly badass in a fight. I am lining them up to be able to take on Infernals. I want a Lunar swordsman who is just as capable in a fight as a Lunar going full-time DBT. Lunar thematics will be more tightly focused on the dualism of a "good" person who has a monster inside, or a monster who has a good person inside. Rage, transformation, and shapeshifting will be much more strongly evinced in their narrative and their mechanics. (John Mørke)

I love the transformation angle. I love huge warforms. I love guardian beasts and rage-fueled wereheroes. But I don't want every Lunar I play to depend on this, the way I don't want every Solar I play to depend on melee or every 2e Infernal I play to depend on SWL.

Just because Lunars draw some inspiration from Garou—and I am proud of that heritage and have incorporated it into the design—does not mean Lunars are going to be Garou. As you pointed out, I want to be able to play Lunar warriors who do not rely on the DBT.

One commonality is that shapeshifting remains a strong tool, and that Lunars draw extreme power from their physicality, be it from their intense sexuality, their furious / terrifying might, or their ability to shape their reptilian hindbrains to a higher form, making insights of a higher form, seeing with ancient eyes the truths of another age. They are tremendously physical characters and this is something to be proud of, not to run away from.

Illusions are for sissies (jk don't hit me!)

A: (John Mørke)

I can confirm that intimacy-related shape-taking is already in my plans.

General statements for the thread: Lunars have physicality as a default. I'm not throwing that out.

A No-Moon trying to do sorcerous or craft-related things isn't going to be looking to his shapeshifting tool set to do those things. How does shapeshifting benefit him? When the Wyld Hunt shows up, he flies away.

Someone noted that they feel physicality is a part of form taking, not so much observation. I agree.

Though I am pretty keen on stalker shape-stealing, as proposed by S.L. earlier in the thread.

Q: If someone wanted to play a character who didn't change their own body at all, would you recommend against them playing a Lunar? (BrilliantRain)
A: Yes, as well as a couple of other splats. (Holden)

That last one in particular is important, because it flat out states that all Lunars shapeshift.

If every member of a splat can shapeshift to some degree, than by the laws of mathematics, 100% of that splat are shapeshifters.

[Guancyto]

Ah, the old "take an innocuous phrase and extrapolate a large meaning out of it, then have a big argument" game.

What ever did we do before we had the Internet?

When I said, "Lunars won't be 100% shapeshifting any more" what I meant was, "shapeshifting is no longer going to be the One Trick that Lunars have that isn't accessible by a fancy god-blood and their One True Build besides," as in, their powerset might be 25% shapeshifting, 25% crazy witch magic, 100% GRATUITOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY.

Either way, whether you're hulking out as a giant werefox or just running the hell away with all your stuff, moonsilver equipment has you covered! Don't leave home without it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What ever did we do before we had the Internet?

Well, what you just described is basically a rumor.

[Rater202]

Except Lunars are explicitly mostly physical and explicitly all shapeshifters.

So, what are your sources for Crazy Witch Magic? Because that does not seam supported by what we've been told, at least to my reading.

[HalfTangible]

That last one in particular is important, because it flat out states that all Lunars shapeshift.

No it doesn't, it says that it isn't recommended to play a Lunar who can't shapeshift. There's a difference.

[golentan]

I would love more crazy witch magic, to be fair, but I don't actually enjoy TAW lunars, so...

We're gonna be completely unpleasable as a group, you know.

[Rater202]

Multiple sorcerous initiations are confirmed.

Different initiations have different effects.

One initiation could easily be crazy witch magic.

Tada: Crazy witch magic that does not dilute Lunar themes(and you can use it for any character, not just a Lunar Sorcerer)

[Morty]

There's a lot ground that shape-shifting and transformation cover that do not involve changing your shape to such a degree that a weapon will no longer be usable.

[Rater202]

There's a lot ground that shape-shifting and transformation cover that do not involve changing your shape to such a degree that a weapon will no longer be usable.

I did not, nor did anyone else, say there would be no overlap between shapeshifters and wepon users.

[SaurOps]

I did not, nor did anyone else, say there would be no overlap between shapeshifters and wepon users.

Houses of the Bull God had a lieutenant of Ahlat that had been using daiklaves before humans existed. Her moonsilver daiklave shapeshifts so that she can use it with her horns in war aurochs form.

[Rater202]

Houses of the Bull God had a lieutenant of Ahlat that had been using daiklaves before humans existed. Her moonsilver daiklave shapeshifts so that she can use it with her horns in war aurochs form.

Again, nobody, not me, not anyone, said that shape shifters could not be weapon users and that weapon users could not shape shift.

The initial statement was that Lunars are not 100% shape shifters. That statement is false, because we have more than enough quotes along the lines that all Lunars will have some degree of shape shifting abillty,even if it is not their specialty, and thus if allLunars can shape shift, then by the defenition of percentages, 100%of lunars are shape shifters.

All Lunars shapeshift to some degree, even if it is not their specialty.

I did not, at any point, say that weapons would be useless to a shapeshifter.

I did not, at any point, say that a Lunar with weapons did not shapeshift.

Thus, your example is unneeded,as it disproves a point that no one made.

The closest to that that I did say was, when confronted with the quote that stated that evocations and deadly beast man were mutually exclusive but roughly equal, was point out that this only meant that one specific kind of shape shifting was mutually exclusive with dedicated weapon specialization, and thus it was not proof positive that Lunars who do not specialize in shape shifting do not shape shift.

In fact, it would not be inaccurate to state that "Lunars don't shape shift if they have weapons and don't need weapons if they shape shift" to be the exact opposite of the argument I am trying to make.

[TheCountAlucard]

Just because someone responds to you doesn't mean they're disagreeing (nor are they necessarily saying you said something).

[SaurOps]

Just because someone responds to you doesn't mean they're disagreeing (nor are they necessarily saying you said something).

Yeah, that was meant as support.

[Rater202]

Yeah, that was meant as support.

Apologies. Lack of context made it hard to grok, and I'm used to being attacked when I talk about what exalted things should be,even if I'm just quoting the devs, so...

[Zale]

I would love more crazy witch magic, to be fair, but I don't actually enjoy TAW lunars, so...

We're gonna be completely unpleasable as a group, you know.

Oh but I like TAW. It lets me make Ursala the Sea Witch without having to resort to see if Graceful Wicked Masks can do it.

I mean, like shaping combat rules.

Also I don't have to deal with animal stat blocks at all.

I was slightly disappointed that they were going with such a strict theme of physicality with Lunars. I really hope they don't end up as the Animal Exalted again. I mean, animal themes are cool, but you're supposed to be the Exalted of the Moon, not the Exalted of Thousandfold Chimeric Petting Zoo Prana.

[Lanaya]

I was slightly disappointed that they were going with such a strict theme of physicality with Lunars. I really hope they don't end up as the Animal Exalted again. I mean, animal themes are cool, but you're supposed to be the Exalted of the Moon, not the Exalted of Thousandfold Chimeric Petting Zoo Prana.

What does Exalted of the Moon mean, though, and what moon things do they do? The Chosen of the Sun show barely any powers that are actually related to the sun, and (in my experience, at least) the sun has a lot more thematic resonance than the moon does. If someone asked me to draft up a bunch of moon-related powers, I would have no idea what to do, because the moon doesn't mean anything to me. I did some quick googling on the matter, and got a whole bunch of contradictory themes that I would never have thought associated with them moon; if the Lunars book came out and they had powers of water, perception and femininity I would be seriously confused about what these people are meant to be. Maybe I'm just ignorant in moon-lore, but I don't feel that Moon People is a concept that most people will find thematically coherent. Animals, on the other hand, have tonnes of meaning all over the place which makes them very easy to grasp and interesting. I get that lions mean pride, strength and nobility, and I can do something with that.