General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[Rater202]

Oh but I like TAW. It lets me make Ursala the Sea Witch without having to resort to see if Graceful Wicked Masks can do it.

I mean, like shaping combat rules.

Also I don't have to deal with animal stat blocks at all.

I was slightly disappointed that they were going with such a strict theme of physicality with Lunars. I really hope they don't end up as the Animal Exalted again. I mean, animal themes are cool, but you're supposed to be the Exalted of the Moon, not the Exalted of Thousandfold Chimeric Petting Zoo Prana.

They have repeatedly stated that "Animal themes, not animal powers" is the Lunar shtick

There is not going to be a hermit crab sharm that lets you pick up your house and carry it with no, nor a pistol shrimp charm that lets you snao your fingers to shoot somebody.

You are smart like an elephant, not smart as an elephant. Cunning like a Fox, not as a fox. Quick like a cheetah. Strong like an Ox.

They've explicitly stated that Lunars are not going to be the Chosen of Zoo Tycoon.

Also, instead of an actual Animal, the Spirit Shape is a Totem with traits reflecting the Lunar at the time of Exaltation. These traits will influence certain Lunar Charms.

So a wise old man who goes out into the wilderness in the middle of winter because his grand children wandered off and kills a bear with his bear hands to rescue them,and then Exalts because he survived both the cold and the bear, he might have "Wise*" "Protective of the Children*" and "Loyal to the Family*"as important traits, and thus his Soul Manifests as a wolf.

Meanwhile a Cannibalistic serial killer who escapes from prison and remains on the Lamb for years might exalt and also be represented as a Wolf, because he lives up to traits associated with the "Big Bad Wolf" archetype.

Mechanically,these two guys would play very differently, even if they had the same Caste, and their spirit shapes would probably look different.

Or at least that's my understanding.

You don't get actual Animal Powers unless you take the time to hunt an animal and eat it's heart, and you still have your godlike powers.

*Traits made up for the purposes of illistration

[Lord Raziere]

Hm, animal themes might actually be better than outright animal powers.

because then I can play a Lunar Gunslinger with with two moonsilver pistols who acts completely uncouthly around everyone in societies where politeness is paramount, and no I don't care that I could that I could do the same with Solars, a big part of human excellence is social skills, and most Solars are probably going to develop those in one form or another somehow: three Castes are practically based on doing some form of that, while the last two (Twilight and Dawn) both have reasons and skills to work with others.

the Animal Exalted are Exigents. In fact, I'll be sure to make the Animistic Exigents, THOSE are Chosen of Zoo Tycoon. or at least one of them....they said Exigents would be more than just whatever superpower....so yeah.

like, Exigents are supposed to be the gods stuff in general? like if your an Exigent of a God of Shadows, its not just the shadow stuff, its also apparently whatever the god is associated with.

like say, I made a god of shadows who is associated with cats for some reason, as well as deception and hidden stuff and so on. an Exigent gains powers themed upon these things. so yeah. weird.

[TheCountAlucard]

It's not weird that a miracle passed down from a god would be based on his nature and not on his job title.

[Lord Raziere]

It's not weird that a miracle passed down from a god would be based on his nature and not on his job title.

But here is the thing:
its a Celestial Bureaucracy right? so isn't the bureaucracy kind of supernaturally metaphysical? like, you get promoted to God of Shadows, odds are you'll become more shadowy. So, their nature would become shadows, so why wouldn't their nature match the title?

I mean, why would the Bureaucracy allow you to keep that past nature kind of thing? why would it metaphysically do that? I mean my ideal system here is that God of Shadows = God of Shadows, because the being is supposed to be good at his job and such so their nature must fit Shadows, so why would the system be all like: God of Shadows =/= Other God of Shadows? Whats the point of having variance in the Gods of Shadow, heck, whats point in having two Gods of Shadow at all, and what purpose does the variation serve?

It would mean that multiple gods of shadow are needed for all the shadows in creation, and that for some reason, the promotion to god of shadow needs multiple different approaches for some reason, to which I say: why? if rules in Creation are meant to be consistent, then why have variation? unless the Celestial Bureaucracy is somehow incapable of overriding that and can only place it on top of what is already there, but then the question becomes, why can't they take some of their nature away that could be problematic?

I mean yes I get its supposed to make sure I am free to make a unique god or whatever from an OOC standpoint, but how does it make sense IC?

[Sith_Happens]

If someone asked me to draft up a bunch of moon-related powers, I would have no idea what to do, because the moon doesn't mean anything to me.

Spoiler: *cough*

Show

nor a pistol shrimp charm that lets you snao your fingers to shoot somebody.

[TheCountAlucard]

its a Celestial Bureaucracy right?

Yes.

so isn't the bureaucracy kind of supernaturally metaphysical? like, you get promoted to God of Shadows, odds are you'll become more shadowy.

If you were working at a burger joint and you got promoted from the grill to manager, odds are you'd become more managerial. But neither job position makes a difference to your status as a vegan, which is still very much a part of who you are beyond what you do for a living.

So, their nature would become shadows…

…insofar as your nature becomes "manager."

…so why wouldn't their nature match the title?

If the only thing that defines a person is her job title, she's a pretty boring person.

I mean, why would the Bureaucracy allow you to keep that past nature kind of thing?

Why wouldn't it?

Don't get me wrong, you spend enough time away from the grill, you will start to forget stuff, but it never completely goes away, and ten years after you leave the burger joint altogether you'll remember that time you forgot to season the patties and management gave you hell for it.

why would it metaphysically do that?

Because the gods aren't mindless blank-slate robots who get god_of_shadows.exe uploaded into their hard drives when they get reassigned and get god_of_cats'_shadows.exe wiped for disk space.

I mean my ideal system here is that God of Shadows = God of Shadows, because the being is supposed to be good at his job and such so their nature must fit Shadows, so why would the system be all like: God of Shadows =/= Other God of Shadows?

See above.

The gods are people first, and magical custodians second, and programmable magical custodian robots a distant third or not at all.

(See also: the Primordial War.)

You seem to have retained this weird baggage where when someone or something made something, every facet of its existence had been some part of at least one's plan, and then get hung up on why something would be made like this.

[Lord Raziere]

Oh right. people. the hardest thing to understand in existence, especially to someone like me.

hm, so people first, which means the god and what they're associated with changes along with their growth as a person, what choices they make and so on...and thats pretty much it. right.

...yeah, to be honest, I'm starting to wonder if Exigents just shouldn't be another thing I say "screw it, I'm doing it my way" with, like many other things, because Exalted just doesn't seem to agree with my brain on this. I just can't wrap my head around the strange fuzzy people-ish way gods gain their associations that contribute to Exigent powers.

[Recaiden]

Because the Celestial Bureaucracy is not a thing It doesn't exist. It's just what gods do. It was barely designed, and it has no more magical power than any human bureaucracy.

[Necroticplague]

Does anyone actually have crunch on Exigents? Based on the sound of it, it kinda seems like they're going to be to gods what Infernals are to Primordials. Except that Gods already have a body of charms, so Exigents would just be "PCs get Spirit charms".

[Rater202]

Presumably you could still eat a Pistol Shrimp ang gain Pistol Shrimp Powers by using it's shape to your advantage. Or maybe become a Chimera and graft it's traits to your Spirit Shape.

like say, I made a god of shadows who is associated with cats for some reason, as well as deception and hidden stuff and so on. an Exigent gains powers themed upon these things. so yeah. weird.

Oh right. people. the hardest thing to understand in existence, especially to someone like me.

hm, so people first, which means the god and what they're associated with changes along with their growth as a person, what choices they make and so on...and thats pretty much it. right.

...yeah, to be honest, I'm starting to wonder if Exigents just shouldn't be another thing I say "screw it, I'm doing it my way" with, like many other things, because Exalted just doesn't seem to agree with my brain on this. I just can't wrap my head around the strange fuzzy people-ish way gods gain their associations that contribute to Exigent powers.

Think of it like this: You're a mechanic. Normally you do breaks, but youv'e just been promoted,and now you're the transmission guy. You get traning doing transmissions, but that doen'st mean you won't be able to fix breaks anymore. It's just, if you go a few years, you'll bea little rusty.

Using your example of a Shadow God who's associated with cats.

Well, Maybe he used to be the "God of the Feral Cats in this one city" but then got promoted to "The God of the Shadows in this one city." He's not in charge of the cats anymore, but he still has all of that experiance being the cat god.

Later, when he makes an Exigent, his nature is expanded and magnified, so his champion has shadow Powers and not "The powers of the shadows of this one city." But becuase his patron used to be a cat god, he also gets cat themed powers, but they're not as prominent as the shadow powers.

But that's not all, because Gods are individuals, no two gods have the same nature. Since the god of Shadows is the god of the shadows and was the god of cats for a specific city, how that City sees shadows(and cats) is going to influence his own powers and nature, and thus the powers of his champion.

A city where cats are seen as the sign of witchcraft and the darkness is cursed because that's when the monsters come out of the forest to eat the children is going to have a shadow God and former cat god who has different duties and powers and thus a different champion to the equivalent deity from a desert city where the shade is the only respite and cats are worshiped as gifts from the gods because they keep the plague away.

Exigents, at east the powerful ones, also have a degree of Semantic Super Powers going. For example, on the Onyx Path forums, there was a thread about gods that a mortal would turn down an Exigency from. "No thanks, Celestial God of All Buffalo Dung."

One of the devs posted and pointed out that an Exigent of The God of All Buffalo Dung would be freakishly powerful and versatile, being able to poison the air with deadly bacteria and terrible stench, or make crops grow bigger,better,and faster because bovine excremental is excellent fertilizer, or easily tell when someone is lying to her because she can see through everyone's bull****

The Exigent of the Patron God of a Hospital who poured all of his being into the exigency, thus forsaking his life but making his champion as powerful as a solar? Well, let's say that the Exigent is an Ability Exigent. Obviously, using the medicine skill, he can probably do whatever a Solar Healer can do or maybe more... But what about the Other Skills? Occultism's probably not going to be very useful, except maybe a few charms for recognizing supernatural illnesses and poisons more easily. Weapons, on the other hand, well, how about some charms that allow you to wield any melee weapon with the same grace and precision as a trained surgeon wielding a scalpel? What about a Larceny Charm that let's you steal the health out of an enemy and use it to heal an ally?

So, the Chosen of the God of This One City's Shadows who used to Be The God of This One City's Cats could have powers more potent, more versatile, or just far stranger, than the power his or her patron had as a result of his or her current or former stations.

Edit: Exigents do not get Spirit Charms, there are no Generic Spirit Charms anymore, Infernals are getting Ability Charms themed after the Yozis instead of Yozi Charms this eddition, and Discounting Eclipsoid Charm Share, only Spirits get Spirit Charms(Godbloods are apparently getting their own charms this edition)

[Lanaya]

Does anyone actually have crunch on Exigents? Based on the sound of it, it kinda seems like they're going to be to gods what Infernals are to Primordials. Except that Gods already have a body of charms, so Exigents would just be "PCs get Spirit charms".

There is no crunch on Exigents. If you want an Exalt who just uses spirit charms, you can make an Exigent who does that. It'll probably be a boring and somewhat limited Exigent, but you can do it. If you want an Exalt who can only tap into their powers by going through a magical costume-changing transformation sequence, you can do that too. If you want an Exalt who's five times as strong as a Solar, has seventeen different mote pools and qualifies for charms based on a combination of merit dots, the time of day and how many health levels they have remaining, that's also an Exigent. The only thing all Exigents have in common is that they're Exalted by one or more non-Incarna gods. Everything else is up to whoever invents the Exigent in question.

[Zale]

What does Exalted of the Moon mean, though, and what moon things do they do? The Chosen of the Sun show barely any powers that are actually related to the sun, and (in my experience, at least) the sun has a lot more thematic resonance than the moon does. If someone asked me to draft up a bunch of moon-related powers, I would have no idea what to do, because the moon doesn't mean anything to me. I did some quick googling on the matter, and got a whole bunch of contradictory themes that I would never have thought associated with them moon; if the Lunars book came out and they had powers of water, perception and femininity I would be seriously confused about what these people are meant to be. Maybe I'm just ignorant in moon-lore, but I don't feel that Moon People is a concept that most people will find thematically coherent. Animals, on the other hand, have tonnes of meaning all over the place which makes them very easy to grasp and interesting. I get that lions mean pride, strength and nobility, and I can do something with that.

There's tons of associations with the moon. I know plenty of them, which is why I find it weird that Lunars are getting themes associated with extreme physicality. But, yeah, that's fine.

It's just strange that Solars got powers that are evocative of what the Unconquered Sun does/is (Excellence, Perfection, Paragon of Human Achievement), but Lunars got strongly animalistic themes.. when Luna doesn't show many of those.

I mean, Luna does shapeshifting and protecting nature a lot, but most of the Animals and Nature Warden stuff is just because Luna likes Gaia a lot.

If Luna was shown to have more animalistic qualities, it would make a lot more sense, but for the life of me I can't even recall once when Luna was shown or mentioned in the form of an animal. Of course, I can easily be wrong, but when I look at 2e Lunars, I have to work to find a direct association with Luna that isn't WEREWOLFWEREWOLFWEREWOLF.

I like Lunars. It's heartening to see that they're going to avoid direct animal powers, but it still looks like they're going with nothing but WEREWOLFBARBARIANSAVAGES as themes.

I mean, if I'm wrong please tell me because I'm not as plugged as you peeps here are, but that's what it looks like from where I'm sitting.

[Lanaya]

I mean, if I'm wrong please tell me because I'm not as plugged as you peeps here are, but that's what it looks like from where I'm sitting.

Who knows? The devs haven't given much solid information about Lunars, and with the book still probably almost two years away there's plenty of time for them to change their minds on everything again. I think the only mostly-definite things are that they'll still be based on the WoD werewolves, but not restricted to only doing WoD werewolf things ("Taking the oWoD's particular interpretation of werewolves as both a solid starting point and a limiter for exploring the concept is a terrible mistake, though"), and that there's some confusing stuff about barbarian themes - I think the gist was that they're barbarians because they're cast out from civilised society and forced to live on the fringes of the world, not because they're all hulking ragemonsters that just want to smash puny city-dwelling folk, but the discussion on them has been a bit vague.

[Rater202]

They're thematically Barbarians.

You can be an educated,well spoken person who dresses in fine clothing and still be a Lunar. It's just, you're like a Barbarian.

The Lawyer who will absolutely ruin somebody, or a Loan shark, they're just as much a Barbarian as the "savage" wearing buckskins or a tigers pelt.

Of course, since Lunars have a culture and will be part of Creation this time, it would not be unlikely that a "civilized" Lunar might adopt the "Savage" aesthetic for their own reasons. But just because you dress like one, that doen'st mean you are one.

[Sith_Happens]

"Grog SMASH prosecution's case!"

[Rater202]

"Grog SMASH prosecution's case!"

Basically.

"Objection! The Defense turned into a Tyrant lizard and ate my witness!"

"Over Ruled!"

[emeraldstreak]

Of course, since Lunars have a culture and will be part of Creation this time, it would not be unlikely that a "civilized" Lunar might adopt the "Savage" aesthetic for their own reasons. But just because you dress like one, that doen'st mean you are one.

I don't see this in the leaked Core.

[Lanaya]

I don't see this in the leaked Core.

Which part? Lunars being a part of Creation has been known since well before the leak happened, and there have been some lengthy dev posts made about Lunars adopting the 'savage' look even if they're not actually frothing mad barbarians. Plus, it's a bit premature to say that Lunars don't have a certain quality just because a draft version of a book that focuses on Solars doesn't mention it.

[Andreaz]

Also consider that when your very core says "force of nature", savagery might be prominent, even if it isn't *animal* savagery.

[HalfTangible]

...

Who would win in a fight, a Dawn Caste or superman?

On the one hand, a Dawn's abilities are all enhanced by magic, which Supes has no special resistance to.

On the other hand, Solar abilities often give off sunlight, which means Supes is constantly drawing energy from them to fight with. And we know he's powerful enough to take at least SOME magical punishment, especially when the magic is primarily channeled through physical blows.

And both have power that is absolutely insane. ('Creation Slaying Oblivion Kick' and 'Hold a black hole', anyone?)

[Lord Raziere]

......well it depends if we're talking about a Superman without limits and if the Dawn is from 2e.

if Superman has no limits, and the Dawn is From 2e, and not 2.5, and the Dawn knows all the charms required for Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick and has scene-long perfect defenses.....

well, I think Superman would lose. here is why:

No matter how powerful your attack, Scene-Long Perfect Defenses make you invincible, so....the entire fight, Superman throws punches and does nothing, while the Dawn does Oblivion Kick After Oblivion Kick at Superman, and despite Superman's sunlight absorption Solars anima is technically not sunlight, its the light of your anima banner and of unlimited human potential. so Superman technically can't absorb it, because technically the Solar isn't using sun energy, they're just using massive amounts of magical human energy, that just so happens to look a lot like sun energy. because ancient mythological symbolism about how sun is a symbol of perfection and so on.

[golentan]

I agree it depends on what charms the Dawn has, but I think the Dawn probably wins by virtue of perfect attack + tick-action-or-scene-long perfect defense. Supes is vulnerable to magic, so a Lambent Bolt of Annihilation will probably finish him off pretty good if it hits, and if the Dawn has the right charms that Supes can't just fly out of range at supersonic speed, he's in for a rough time to say the least.

That said, a melee centric dawn, Supes can withdraw from range pretty easily and beamspam or lob trucks at him until he collapses, or maybe launch 10,000 punches in a turn if they don't have a tick-long perfect, or...

And it also matters, are we talking Actual Superman? Or Psychoman, the Perfect Killing Machine without pity or remorse but with all of superman's powers that sometimes comes up in such discussions. Because Psychoman is much harder to kill, in part because he can and will lethally end a fight, whereas superman is going for the knockout punch at worst. Hypothetical dawn... Even if they have a high compassion and a moral compunction about killing that may not survive a limit break scenario (Red Rage).

[Rockphed]

Exigents do not get Spirit Charms, there are no Generic Spirit Charms anymore, Infernals are getting Ability Charms themed after the Yozis instead of Yozi Charms this edition, and Discounting Eclipsoid Charm Share, only Spirits get Spirit Charms(Godbloods are apparently getting their own charms this edition)

I hope that the rules and guidelines for making an Exigent and making a Godblood work enough alike that it isn't too confusing switching between the two. I almost expect them to come out in the same book.

[Lanaya]

I hope that the rules and guidelines for making an Exigent and making a Godblood work enough alike that it isn't too confusing switching between the two. I almost expect them to come out in the same book.

I was thinking they could put God-Bloods in the back of the Exigent book, like how WoD books handle their weaker sub-splats, though actually I'd rather they lavished a bit more attention on the God-Blooded than that. I feel they've suffered in previous editions because they could be a really useful NPC archetype that could reasonably be placed in decent numbers anywhere in Creation, but then, being confined to a single chapter and without any real rules of their own, they're instead left looking like a mostly meaningless footnote. I'd rather see them given a whole book, or at least a big chunk of one. They certainly deserve it more than, say, Dragon Kings and Jadeborn (not that I don't love my Aztec dinopeople).

[Rater202]

They're getting a book.

[Sith_Happens]

And it also matters, are we talking Actual Superman? Or Psychoman, the Perfect Killing Machine without pity or remorse but with all of superman's powers that sometimes comes up in such discussions.

Is there not a charm with which to turn the former into the latter?

[Exthalion]

Is there not a charm with which to turn the former into the latter?

Untamed Apocalypse Shintai

[TimeWizard]

...

Who would win in a fight, a Dawn Caste or superman?

On the one hand, a Dawn's abilities are all enhanced by magic, which Supes has no special resistance to.

On the other hand, Solar abilities often give off sunlight, which means Supes is constantly drawing energy from them to fight with. And we know he's powerful enough to take at least SOME magical punishment, especially when the magic is primarily channeled through physical blows.

And both have power that is absolutely insane. ('Creation Slaying Oblivion Kick' and 'Hold a black hole', anyone?)

I think you're missing an even better match up here: who would win, Superman or an Eclipse Caste? I say Eclipse, and here's why: Take your average, 2.5 Eclipse. They know a bit of martial arts, they can Charmshare. So right off the bat you have access to Fae charms that make you immune to everything but magic (Bastion of the Self) plus any Solar Perfect Defense you'd like to take (although Duck Fate is still my favorite). Most of the SMA's attack Superman in a way he isn't equipped to handle- but there's an even better strategy. Let me ask you a question, Who is Superman's biggest foe? Plenty of choices here: Zod, Bizarro, Darkseid, Lobo, but not them. You know who I'm talking about.

Lex Luthor. Lex is the foil for Kal-el, he's mortal, smart, and predatory. The comic book medium dictates that Lex must "lose" against Superman (i.e. have his plans foiled), but what sets Lex apart from the other foes I mentioned? He's Human. Zod and Bizarro? Krypton and Krypton Clone. Darkseid? Alien Overlord. Lobo? Alien Bounty Hunter. Hell, even Solomon Grundy is some weird magic swamp zombie... but Lex is One Of Us. A peak condition mortal who has built an empire on guile, charisma, and ruthlessness. You could say he's at peak of human ability... like say, someone about to Exalt?

So we have our Machiavelli Eclipse (so about half of them), who starts the game at or exceeding the levels of Lex Luthor's abilities. From there we make him/her virtually indestructible, and with a whole host of horrible mind control powers. Superman is explicitly not immune to psychic attacks (but his mental defense is stronger), and of course he's weak to Magic. Magic like Charms. Any Eclipse out there who wanted to rid the world of the Boy in Blue, and was not contractually obligated to lose by being in a comicbook, could do so after sufficient leveling.

Anyway, the basis of the argument is "Superman almost loses to Lex a whole lot, and Eclipse Castes can out-Lex Lex, so they should be able to win with their words/plans". The only reason I don't just hand the Magic=Victory thing to Twilights is that actually hitting Kent with Sorcery would be pretty difficult.

[Sith_Happens]

Let me ask you a question, Who is Superman's biggest foe? Plenty of choices here: Zod, Bizarro, Darkseid, Lobo, but not them. You know who I'm talking about.

Mr. Keyboardmash?

...Who is totally a Sidereal.

[TheCountAlucard]

Looks like John Mørke's having further medical troubles; after the lymph nodes were removed he developed increasingly severe sleep apnea, and has recently had to purchase a CPAP machine.

Holden's updated John's GoFundMe accordingly.