General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[TimeWizard]

Looks like John Mørke's having further medical troubles; after the lymph nodes were removed he developed increasingly severe sleep apnea, and has recently had to purchase a CPAP machine.

Holden's updated John's GoFundMe accordingly.

My dad uses one of these. It makes mum sleep in another room sometimes because she's a light sleeper. If you haven't seen one, its a little reverse vacuum that ends in a mask you wear that forces air into your nose so that you don't stop breathing in the night, and then almost wake up to breathe deliberately, and then repeat over and over throughput the night. Apnea makes getting a restful night sleep almost impossible. I'm really sad to read this.

[Sith_Happens]

Some people over in Play-By-Post seem to think that the backer PDF has been sent out. Is this true?

[HalfTangible]

Some people over in Play-By-Post seem to think that the backer PDF has been sent out. Is this true?

AHAHAHA

No

Seems to be close, though

Maria is sending me [Holden] her corrected PDF pages tonight. We’ll need to resubmit them to CCP, as per their request, but the changes were consistent style and format concerns mostly. We will also be awaiting the Page XX page numbers from the Devs for Maria to input, which Holden realized it was time to do before sending the backer PDF out.

[Recaiden]

Some people over in Play-By-Post seem to think that the backer PDF has been sent out. Is this true?

Afraid not. I'm not sure it ever will be.

[Guancyto]

So, I had one of those 3AM thoughts.

In a game I'm in, I'm looking at developing a karma-focused devil tiger. Yes, I know Creation doesn't have such a thing as karma, but Primordials are tied to universal principles and the infernal is taking "be the change you want to see in the world" a little bit literally.

Anyway! Would a power that is not technically resurrection but basically enompasses, "replicate body, reincarnate upper and lower soul into it with memories intact, enhance or diminish as appropriate to karmic debt" be against 'tha rules?' (Akin to D&D's Reincarnation spell - always a permanent change upon using it, sometimes it works out well.)

Aside from accidentally reincarnating your buddy as a bug (and obviously not being able to shove an Exaltation back in because nobody can do that) what would the drawbacks of it be?

[Lord Raziere]

Aside from accidentally reincarnating your buddy as a bug (and obviously not being able to shove an Exaltation back in because nobody can do that) what would the drawbacks of it be?

well I could see it probably tampering with the Loom of Fate somehow. Creation already has a thing that reincarnates people and a religion that promotes the karma thing, its just that the reincarnation is in fact random while the religion is a lie, so....what the Infernal is actually doing, seems to be saying "no, you, lower soul, stay with upper soul, now go into this body here no matter what the Loom says, and STAY THERE and no going undead or any of that Underworld nonsense"

so I can see the Sidereals going "well that isn't supposed to happen, what the Malfeas is that? no really, what the actual Malfeas is that, it can't be an Underworld thing and it doesn't seem to be a Wyld thing so its got to be a demon thing....."

or if you fail, you instead create some form of undead. I dunno, if the body is still human, it might just be a good way to make a Liminal if we're being strict about it....and those are Exalts themselves and are not going to obey you or anything. but then again, trying this kind of karmic reincarnation thing might be more of a sorcery thing than a charm thing? unless the Infernal charm is powerful enough I guess?

also, the "karmic debt" would probably be defined by the Infernals own views of karma rather than anything universal, because he is basically enforcing his own metaphysical punishment/promotion thing on the world based on his own preconceptions of what should be moral or not, so you probably got an Infernal going around turning people he doesn't like into newts and people he does like into people with some sort of weird power that gives them an advantage, and that this will create a world thats only good in the Infernal's eyes and whatnot. if they succeed and don't end up creating accidental undead and the occasional Liminal instead.

[This be Richard]

Anyway! Would a power that is not technically resurrection but basically enompasses, "replicate body, reincarnate upper and lower soul into it with memories intact, enhance or diminish as appropriate to karmic debt" be against 'tha rules?' (Akin to D&D's Reincarnation spell - always a permanent change upon using it, sometimes it works out well.)

We're dancing a fine line here with the no-resurrection rule. Sufficiently fine that I think this may just be a matter of ST discretion (though I could always be mistaken).

Personally, I find myself leaning towards the liminal-creation possibility mentioned above, but with that said...

[T]his will create a world thats only good in the Infernal's eyes and whatnot.

...this seems like exactly the kind of thing that one might reasonably expect of an ambitious devil tiger.

[HalfTangible]

So, I had one of those 3AM thoughts.

In a game I'm in, I'm looking at developing a karma-focused devil tiger. Yes, I know Creation doesn't have such a thing as karma, but Primordials are tied to universal principles and the infernal is taking "be the change you want to see in the world" a little bit literally.

Anyway! Would a power that is not technically resurrection but basically enompasses, "replicate body, reincarnate upper and lower soul into it with memories intact, enhance or diminish as appropriate to karmic debt" be against 'tha rules?' (Akin to D&D's Reincarnation spell - always a permanent change upon using it, sometimes it works out well.)

Aside from accidentally reincarnating your buddy as a bug (and obviously not being able to shove an Exaltation back in because nobody can do that) what would the drawbacks of it be?

*tilts head* Isn't that basically one of the new Exalt types? Chernozem, i think?

[TheCountAlucard]

Creation already has a thing that reincarnates people and a religion that promotes the karma thing, its just that the reincarnation is in fact random while the religion is a lie, so…

First off, we don't know that it's random - we know precious little about what the process in Creation for what soul goes where is, beyond "they reincarnate."

Second, like all good Jedi Truths, the Immaculate Philosophy is sprinkled with enough truth that simply calling it a lie would be a gross oversimplification - among other things, it's a truth that those mortals who die in the service of the Exalted are reborn destined to Exalt as Dragon-Blooded.

(Other Immaculate truths include: the gods are indolent; Heaven is corrupt; gods who terrorize mortals for worship are abusing their power; ambition is dangerous; the Dragon-Blooded are better-suited to face supernatural threats than mortals; the very existence of the Solars and Lunars threatens the stability of the Realm; the Dragon-Blooded threw down the Anathema in ages past; the list goes on…)

[This be Richard]

[M]ortals who die in the service of the Exalted are reborn destined to Exalt as Dragon-Blooded.

Now, because this is Exalted, I have to ask: does this mean that terrestrial exaltation is subject to destiny and shenanigans involving the loom of fate? Or is this just saying that they're reborn into terrestrial bloodlines? Or something else? I am not familiar with this particular bit of lore and am curious about the implications.

[HalfTangible]

First off, we don't know that it's random - we know precious little about what the process in Creation for what soul goes where is, beyond "they reincarnate."

Second, like all good Jedi Truths, the Immaculate Philosophy is sprinkled with enough truth that simply calling it a lie would be a gross oversimplification - among other things, it's a truth that those mortals who die in the service of the Exalted are reborn destined to Exalt as Dragon-Blooded.

(Other Immaculate truths include: the gods are indolent; Heaven is corrupt; gods who terrorize mortals for worship are abusing their power; ambition is dangerous; the Dragon-Blooded are better-suited to face supernatural threats than mortals; the very existence of the Solars and Lunars threatens the stability of the Realm; the Dragon-Blooded threw down the Anathema in ages past; the list goes on…)

Nobody's given Obi-Wan a free pass for saying that it was all true 'from a certain point of view'.

[Serafina]

The Celestial Bureaucracy is in theory perfectly capable of instituting such a system, or even instituting it for just one part of the world. They even did so during the High First Age, as a form of compensation when your village/city/country got devastated in a Solars "military exercise".
They're not doing it right now because who cares about mortals?

There are also charms that allow you to hijack a gods actions. Gods can even do so natively - via the Mandate of Subordination they can give UMD-orders to their subordinates, and there are charms that do that on a larger scale.
Exalts generally do not have such charms. But if you're playing an Infernal - well, gods were created to serve the Primordials. It should be pretty easy to create a charm that hijacks the (normally only usable by gods) Mandate of Subordination and enforces that a god works to support a certain goal.

Then you simply select a goal such as "enforce my definition of Karma", and thanks to the celestial bureaucracy, the gods that are needed to support that goal will now enact it automatically. Well, they could resist but overall the system should function smoothly.
Just be aware that you'll alert Yu-Shan to what you're doing and that this could easily bring down some violent reactions on you - though since you'll likely only be affecting some minor functionaries, it won't be a full-scale reaction.

[Draken]

*tilts head* Isn't that basically one of the new Exalt types? Chernozem, i think?

Chernozem were explicitly called as not being the person whose parts were used in their construction, I believe.

The Celestial Bureaucracy is in theory perfectly capable of instituting such a system, or even instituting it for just one part of the world. They even did so during the High First Age, as a form of compensation when your village/city/country got devastated in a Solars "military exercise".
They're not doing it right now because who cares about mortals?

There are also charms that allow you to hijack a gods actions. Gods can even do so natively - via the Mandate of Subordination they can give UMD-orders to their subordinates, and there are charms that do that on a larger scale.
Exalts generally do not have such charms. But if you're playing an Infernal - well, gods were created to serve the Primordials. It should be pretty easy to create a charm that hijacks the (normally only usable by gods) Mandate of Subordination and enforces that a god works to support a certain goal.

Then you simply select a goal such as "enforce my definition of Karma", and thanks to the celestial bureaucracy, the gods that are needed to support that goal will now enact it automatically. Well, they could resist but overall the system should function smoothly.
Just be aware that you'll alert Yu-Shan to what you're doing and that this could easily bring down some violent reactions on you - though since you'll likely only be affecting some minor functionaries, it won't be a full-scale reaction.

The effect you are describing sounds like a Cecelynian charm building up from Sublimation of Ordained Purpose (or a Heretical charm building up from the same plus, perhaps, Loom Snarling Deception). In either case, such a charm would probably be a Blasphemy though, and thus invoke at least some sidereal investigation.

I mean, I am pretty sure there is nothing Heaven takes more seriously than malfeasance.

[Exthalion]

I mean, I am pretty sure there is nothing Heaven takes more seriously than malfeasance.

I am afraid you are quite incorrect about this. The greatest crime in Heaven is getting caught. Everything else is forgiven.

[HalfTangible]

Chernozem were explicitly called as not being the person whose parts were used in their construction, I believe.

Yes, but they come about through this exact style of resurrection. Correct?

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, but they come about through this exact style of resurrection. Correct?

more like they come about through any kind of resurrection that isn't the usual "Heaven-mandated mortal being reborn with no memories" reincarnation. according to the preview PDF, trying to use Sorcery to resurrect people just results in a Liminal the rare time someone tries it, but I wouldn't be surprised if trying to do the lightning frankenstein thing or doing some alchemy thing involving liquids and needles, or just stitching together body parts and trying to use some sort of weird artifact implanted in the corpse to try and reel the soul back in or whatever other method you can come up with results in a Liminal as well.

I'm guessing Necromancy probably doesn't make Liminals because
1. necromancy animates corpses and manipulates ghosts, but resurrection is a life thing, which it doesn't do. 2. if it did, it would probably create too many Liminals to be believable, especially since Liminals are supposed to be the Abyssals enemies.
3. preview pdf implies the the Dark Mother needs someone of Creation to "open the door" and thus provide and opportunity for her to make a Liminal.

so yeah, what this Infernal is doing, could result in a Liminal in the sense that its not a Necromancy thing and its trying to bring back the dead, thus giving the Dark Mother an opportunity to make one each time they try it.

[Rater202]

Yes, but they come about through this exact style of resurrection. Correct?

No. Any attempt to create life from Death.

Trying and failing to bring back the dead, trying to the Frankenstein stuff, and the like.

They're partial Expies of the Promethean's

[HalfTangible]

So yes, you'd get a Liminal.

Okay.

[Lanaya]

according to the preview PDF, trying to use Sorcery to resurrect people just results in a Liminal the rare time someone tries it, but I wouldn't be surprised if trying to do the lightning frankenstein thing or doing some alchemy thing involving liquids and needles, or just stitching together body parts and trying to use some sort of weird artifact implanted in the corpse to try and reel the soul back in or whatever other method you can come up with results in a Liminal as well.

It doesn't happen every time you try to sorcery someone back from the dead, only when the Dark Mother decides to intervene. So an enterprising sorcerer can't invent a resurrection spell they know won't work, gather up all the corpses in the local graveyard and then churn out an endless horde of free Exalts. Going by the setting's pretty strict anti-resurrection stance, the Devil-Tiger's reincarnation trick would probably just fail because no magic is capable of doing that kind of thing, but if it did miraclously appear to work it would actually be a Liminal rather than whoever you tried to bring back.

[Serafina]

Actually, the setting only says "what is dead stays dead".
Yes, there is a difference. Because there are some things that can be killed, and resurrect as themselves.
Best example: Dragon Kings.

Dragon Kings actually do not have their souls go through Lethe, their souls are not cleansed of everything and turned into a blank slate. Rather, each new-born Dragon King has an ancient soul, first made when the Dragon Kings were created. Unlocking the memories of their former lives isn't easy, but can be done.

Likewise, Gods that are killed will generally re-form as themselves later on.

However, in both cases that is because the soul actually survives if the body is killed. So it doesn't break the "no resurrection" rule.
However, if a spirit-killer charm were to be used, then that wouldn't happen. The "no resurrection" rule would apply fully. Which actually turned into a major problem for Dragon Kings during the primordial war.



And yes, in theory, the setting doesn't prevent you from setting up a system like that for humans as well. Get killed, your Hun-soul survives and is put un-cleansed into a newborn human body. As you age, you gradually recover your memories and basically have the same personality as you did in your previous life.
Doing that would require intercepting the soul on it's way to the Underworld and Lethe. In other words, some serious sorcery or possibly necromancy, or of course loom-weaving.
What I proposed above was much simpler - the soul still gets cleansed as normal, but once it's again available to Creation, it's simply directed to a body worthy of your previous life (say, a rich family in a region with no severe warfare if you lived a good life).

Now, if you really do want to prevent this pseudo-resurrection/reincarnation, you can take advantage of the fact that humans have two souls - while the Hun-soul carries most of your personality, the Po-soul is also important. And the two separate at death. Simply state that putting the two back together as they were before is impossible - so you might get a facsimile of the dead person, but not actually the same person.

[Exthalion]

Actually, the setting only says "what is dead stays dead".
Yes, there is a difference. Because there are some things that can be killed, and resurrect as themselves.
Best example: Dragon Kings.

Dragon Kings actually do not have their souls go through Lethe, their souls are not cleansed of everything and turned into a blank slate. Rather, each new-born Dragon King has an ancient soul, first made when the Dragon Kings were created. Unlocking the memories of their former lives isn't easy, but can be done.

Likewise, Gods that are killed will generally re-form as themselves later on.

However, in both cases that is because the soul actually survives if the body is killed. So it doesn't break the "no resurrection" rule.
However, if a spirit-killer charm were to be used, then that wouldn't happen. The "no resurrection" rule would apply fully. Which actually turned into a major problem for Dragon Kings during the primordial war.



And yes, in theory, the setting doesn't prevent you from setting up a system like that for humans as well. Get killed, your Hun-soul survives and is put un-cleansed into a newborn human body. As you age, you gradually recover your memories and basically have the same personality as you did in your previous life.
Doing that would require intercepting the soul on it's way to the Underworld and Lethe. In other words, some serious sorcery or possibly necromancy, or of course loom-weaving.
What I proposed above was much simpler - the soul still gets cleansed as normal, but once it's again available to Creation, it's simply directed to a body worthy of your previous life (say, a rich family in a region with no severe warfare if you lived a good life).

Now, if you really do want to prevent this pseudo-resurrection/reincarnation, you can take advantage of the fact that humans have two souls - while the Hun-soul carries most of your personality, the Po-soul is also important. And the two separate at death. Simply state that putting the two back together as they were before is impossible - so you might get a facsimile of the dead person, but not actually the same person.

Alchemical soulgems keep them together, and they stay together unless the Po is consumed by the Maker. So it can be done if the proper systems are in place.


As for reincarnation and memory wiping: In what sense is this actually fair? By most of the meaningful metrics the person being born is different from the one who died. Thus karma isn't actually personal, and a person's life is someone else's reward or punishment. That is hardly fair, which karma is usually considered to be.

[Lanaya]

As for reincarnation and memory wiping: In what sense is this actually fair? By most of the meaningful metrics the person being born is different from the one who died. Thus karma isn't actually personal, and a person's life is someone else's reward or punishment. That is hardly fair, which karma is usually considered to be.

No, it's not fair. Having strong rules against resurrection isn't fair in general, what if someone deserved a second chance at life? But that's how the setting works, and there are good reasons for that. You're not supposed to have a chance for takebacks if you get yourself killed.

[golentan]

I'd allow it as a charm if you used it on someone who wasn't dead or dying, and there was a stiff penalty for it.

There are a couple of Cheat Death effects, where it looks like I'm dead but joke's on you! Most blatantly, of course, is Immortal Malevolence Enslavement and Final Ray of Light and similar "Stand Back Up" effects.

Then there are Sidereal style effects, as when a sidereal tags someone they like for reincarnation as a dragonblood should they die.

I'd say, if this hypothetical charm says "I tag you for reincarnation: When you DO die, you get to keep your memories but not your XP total or most of the abilities and attributes you've trained up over the years (say you lose a dot or two from each and all charms) and start over as a child accordingly, you lose any exaltation and because of demonic taint on your soul you're really unlikely to attract a non-demonically influenced one regardless, you get an obvious demonic mutation right now that will carry over to your reincarnation, and you qualify as a walking blasphemy effect from now until the day you drop," that'd seem fine to me.

It carries a certain deal-with-the-devil feel to it, which is something I look for even in positive infernal gifting charms. It doesn't just give a boon, it warps the recipient and the world around them.

[Exthalion]

No, it's not fair. Having strong rules against resurrection isn't fair in general, what if someone deserved a second chance at life? But that's how the setting works, and there are good reasons for that. You're not supposed to have a chance for takebacks if you get yourself killed.

I meant the supposed reincarnation/karma devil tiger wouldn't actually be working with karma.

[Ifni]

You're not supposed to have a chance for takebacks if you get yourself killed.

I always felt like the point was more not having a chance for takebacks if you get someone else killed (i.e. no "fire on the human shields, we can just raise them later" or "I killed my best friend due to a stupid decision / Limit Break... oh well, let's just fire True Resurrection, no harm no foul".) The broader point is Actions Have Consequences.

And yeah, having memories carry forward doesn't seem out of line. But the personality might not develop in the same way.

[TimeWizard]

Thematically similar, you can always take the Past Lives background and call it Reincarnation, especially if the ST gives you new character starting xp. You can fluff that however you want.

[Guancyto]

Well, I mean it's all ST discretion. Perfected Kata Bracers are in the books, it's just a matter of whether or not they're right for the ST's game.

I hadn't thought of Liminals! That would be an interesting direction to take it. There's no Dark Mother in 2e, maybe it's time to take up the mantle!

Hmm, it seems suitably not-quite-Promethean to be able to bring someone back with weird powers and geas them to walk the earth until the debt of their crimes has been repaid. Or until the difference between the good they would have done in the world has been made up, for an unjust death of people the Infernal likes.

Of course, even as a DT, your powers aren't strictly 'yours' but those of an idealized, Primordial version of yourself, which might have some ideas about who deserved killing and who didn't that don't precisely square with the human-thing channeling them. For instance, there should almost certainly be some "DO NOT USE THIS ON THE EXALTED" clause on account of the karmic weight of having murdered the creators of the multiverse. And I wouldn't let it get used on someone whose souls had separated - meaning no less than 3 days from the time of death. A ghost during that time is supposed to be relatively lucid, still in possession of its memories and Po.

In fact, there's a Necromancy ritual that extends this period - I don't see a big difference between Druid Reincarnate (Mortals-Only) But Might Make You a Cow and some uber-thaumaturge scoring a million successes on Three Days of Hun and Po, except that the former you can do more than once.

[Lanaya]

I hadn't thought of Liminals! That would be an interesting direction to take it. There's no Dark Mother in 2e, maybe it's time to take up the mantle!

There kind of is. Masters of Jade mentions a Liminal reporting to a dark mother. The lack of capitals means it might not be the Dark Mother who makes the Liminals, so it doesn't 100% prove that she exists, but it's a pretty good bet that it is her.

[TheCountAlucard]

if it did, it would probably create too many Liminals to be believable, especially since Liminals are supposed to be the Abyssals enemies.

Source, please? Last I heard, the Abyssals and Liminals were not explicitly linked.

[Lanaya]

Source, please? Last I heard, the Abyssals and Liminals were not explicitly linked.

They're not, but they are hunters of the dead. So that would make the Abyssals the go-to antagonist for a Liminal game, although the reverse isn't true because Abyssals have far more numerous and powerful enemies already.