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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Well, I mean it's all ST discretion. Perfected Kata Bracers are in the books, it's just a matter of whether or not they're right for the ST's game.
    Well that's a very complex and involved issue that deserves a great deal of thought and no, they aren't, and never are, for anyone's game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanaya View Post
    They're not, but they are hunters of the dead. So that would make the Abyssals the go-to antagonist for a Liminal game…
    Why? The Abyssals aren't dead. Mayhaps they'll oppose the Deathlords, but we don't really know yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanaya View Post
    …although the reverse isn't true because Abyssals have far more numerous and powerful enemies already.
    Ugh. Did it get lost here that splats aren't intended to be divided into strict power tiers where the lower tiers cannot meaningfully oppose the higher?

    The Liminals are not the revealed default enemies of the Abyssals, nor vice versa, but it doesn't have a damned thing to do with how powerful they are.
    It is inevitable, of course, that persons of epicurean refinement will in the course of eternity engage in dealings with those of... unsavory character. Record well any transactions made, and repay all favors promptly.. (Thanks to Gnomish Wanderer for the Toreador avatar! )

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by SaurOps View Post
    Well that's a very complex and involved issue that deserves a great deal of thought and no, they aren't, and never are, for anyone's game.
    They were right for my game once. Beat a behemoth to death with its own tonsils, the PCs did.

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    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Why? The Abyssals aren't dead. Mayhaps they'll oppose the Deathlords, but we don't really know yet.
    The Abyssals aren't dead, but they do have a thing for serving ghosts, creating zombies and trying to spread the taint of the Underworld throughout Creation. It's kind of their raison d'ętre. No, that doesn't mean that every Liminal will automatically try to kill every Abyssal on sight, but it means that Abyssals, being the only Exalt with a specific schtick of raising the dead and leading armies of ghosts to conquer the lands of the living, are the only Exalt that Liminals have a specific reason to oppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Ugh. Did it get lost here that splats aren't intended to be divided into strict power tiers where the lower tiers cannot meaningfully oppose the higher?

    The Liminals are not the revealed default enemies of the Abyssals, nor vice versa, but it doesn't have a damned thing to do with how powerful they are.
    I'm not talking about power tiers, I said numerous before powerful for a reason. There just aren't enough Liminals for the Abyssals as a whole to care. But yes, power does matter in this case. The Liminals are individually weak compared to Abyssals, even though being weaker doesn't mean they autolose to all Abyssals forever, which means that, combined with their very low numbers, no matter how much the Liminals may or may not hate the Abyssals, it is reasonable for a given Abyssal to simply not care about Liminals or even know what they are. They can ignore the existence of Liminals in a way that a Solar could never ignore the existence of the Dragon-Blooded (because they're everywhere and they collectively are the most powerful Exalt) or a Dragon-Blooded can't ignore the existence of Solars or Lunars (because their dark powers and the sheer level of threat they pose on an individual level makes killing them one of the main purposes, societally speaking, of having the Dragon-Blooded, and on the occasions that you do encounter them it's a Huge Deal rather than an unusually strong enemy). If you can casually ignore the other splat's very existence and nothing will change as a result of that, they can hardly be considered your One True Enemy.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Don't demons have some kind of exception to the 'no resurrection' clause? I could have sworn I remember reading somewhere that lower circles of demon could be resurrected by their progenitors (obviously, with increasing cost with the Circle of the demon) with a mere essence expenditure.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Don't demons have some kind of exception to the 'no resurrection' clause? I could have sworn I remember reading somewhere that lower circles of demon could be resurrected by their progenitors (obviously, with increasing cost with the Circle of the demon) with a mere essence expenditure.
    Demons are spirits so don't resurrect, they just reform unless killed with GET.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Don't demons have some kind of exception to the 'no resurrection' clause? I could have sworn I remember reading somewhere that lower circles of demon could be resurrected by their progenitors (obviously, with increasing cost with the Circle of the demon) with a mere essence expenditure.
    They can make a new demon, but it's not the same demon, except in the sense that the son you have to replace your son after your son dies is the same son.

    That said, a demon that's "killed" can be brought back by a cult if it has one, but that's more a case of being Only Mostly Dead as opposed to resurrection.
    It is inevitable, of course, that persons of epicurean refinement will in the course of eternity engage in dealings with those of... unsavory character. Record well any transactions made, and repay all favors promptly.. (Thanks to Gnomish Wanderer for the Toreador avatar! )

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    They can make a new demon, but it's not the same demon, except in the sense that the son you have to replace your son after your son dies is the same son.

    That said, a demon that's "killed" can be brought back by a cult if it has one, but that's more a case of being Only Mostly Dead as opposed to resurrection.
    And for first circles, it's cult or nothing. They're more akin to elementals in that they disperse instead of reforming.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Mod of the Broken Pattern: I have closed the recruitment thread for the Exalted 3rd Edition game. As I said in the previous Exalted discussion thread, do not discuss Exalted 3rd edition material that has not been officially released.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    So, for my seafaring game, the group intends to sabotage a number of Realm warships via having the group's Abyssal sneak onboard and use her ability to bestow disease with a touch to cripple their crews. Only thing is, the fleet's docked at a port at the moment and if they get sick it'll probably spread to the port city.

    Any suggestions for a disease that's contagious enough and incapacitating enough to hinder the crews, but not fast-acting enough to give the fleet time to launch first?
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2015-09-21 at 12:10 PM.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    So, for my seafaring game, the group intends to sabotage a number of Realm warships via having the group's Abyssal sneak onboard and use her ability to bestow disease with a touch to cripple their crews. Only thing is, the fleet's docked at a port at the moment and if they get sick it'll probably spread to the port city.

    Any suggestions for a disease that's contagious enough and incapacitating enough to hinder the crews, but not fast-acting enough to give the fleet time to launch first?
    There's a lot of diseases with an incubation time of a few hours, but personally I don't see why you need to offer a way out of this decision =/
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    There's a lot of diseases with an incubation time of a few hours, but personally I don't see why you need to offer a way out of this decision =/
    I'm not "offering a way out," this stuff was discussed when they came up with the plan. The Abyssal's player agreed it was tactically wisest to look for a disease that wasn't gonna end with the island being a lifeless piece of rock. That's why she's not using, say, the Great Contagion.

    It's just that neither she nor I are real-life experts on disease.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2015-09-21 at 01:03 PM.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    I'm not "offering a way out," this stuff was discussed when they came up with the plan. The Abyssal's player agreed it was tactically wisest to look for a disease that wasn't gonna end with the island being a lifeless piece of rock. That's why she's not using, say, the Great Contagion.

    It's just that neither she nor I are real-life experts on disease.
    Depending on how soon they're casting off and how quickly after that you need them down, you could give them a sufficiently infectious disease that takes a few hours to a few days to actually become infectious. *shrug* If you don't have any ideas it'd probably be easiest to just make one up.
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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    What kind of time scale are you working on? How long do you suspect that the fleet will be in port, and when do you needs the crews crippled?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    And more importantly, if any Abyssal can potentially inflict the Great Contagion on people at will, how is Creation not dead yet?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Depending on how dead you want all the sailors to be, you could just infect them with some tropical disease like Dengue Fever. It is normally spread by mosquitos, and assuming you aren't somewhere tropical there won't be any of those around to spread it to the island.

    I am not familiar with the charm, but does it cause sickness as though from initial infect or from first symptoms? If the latter, rabies is fairly hard to spread between people but has a long incubation time. Cholera is a reasonably fast incubation and people might even survive it with proper treatment. Given that these are sailors, there is a good chance they will just infect the sea water which no one is likely to drink preventing a more general outbreak. (until they go ashore and you end up with an outbreak)
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    And more importantly, if any Abyssal can potentially inflict the Great Contagion on people at will, how is Creation not dead yet?
    Everything still alive has some resistance to the Great Contagion or it's not quite the same disease. It's not too clear.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    I agree with Exthalion look at parasite borne diseases from parasites not native to the region. Most of those are adapted so that part of their lifecycle requires them to be in a specific parasite's gut for a while to develop properly. For extra deniability try and find something the sailors might have been exposed to at another port. Make them think they have an infestation on one of the ships so they spend time trying to root it out.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    And more importantly, if any Abyssal can potentially inflict the Great Contagion on people at will, how is Creation not dead yet?
    It's not just "any Abyssal," the GC (or a strain of it, or something) can be tapped by an Abyssal with high-end Medicine Charms. How many Abyssals have Medicine 3, three Medicine Charms, and Essence 5?

    And the Great Contagion accessed by these Charms is either a less virulent, more curable version, or Creation became a teensy bit inoculated to it from surviving its last sweep.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2015-09-21 at 09:18 PM.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    It's not just "any Abyssal," the GC (or a strain of it, or something) can be tapped by an Abyssal with high-end Medicine Charms. How many Abyssals have Medicine 3, three Medicine Charms, and Essence 5?

    And the Great Contagion accessed by these Charms is either a less virulent, more curable version, or Creation became a teensy bit inoculated to it from surviving its last sweep.
    And every time someone looses the Great Contagion on Creation, Creation becomes a bit better at fending it off. Soon releasing the Great Contagion will trigger the Real Defense Grid. This will, if anything, make for a much more effective weapon. Just ask Meschlum what the most effective way for a Fair Folk to destroy an area is.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Just ask Meschlum what the most effective way for a Fair Folk to destroy an area is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    And every time someone looses the Great Contagion on Creation, Creation becomes a bit better at fending it off. Soon releasing the Great Contagion will trigger the Real Defense Grid. This will, if anything, make for a much more effective weapon. Just ask Meschlum what the most effective way for a Fair Folk to destroy an area is.
    Still not as fun as the infernal Cult of Chejop Kejak. Because the Cult of Chejop actually inspires questions about Chejop's loyalties.

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    Chirality Prohibition index: the duty of cultists is to pray to and expand the worship "Chejop Kejak, our infernal master in heaven, hero of the yozis" each day including proselytizing through any correspondence method where they will expound on his oncoming role in the fall of the sidereals (who are described as accurately as possible) and the tormented screams of the "traitor gods," and their mandatory dress code is to groom themselves as Chejop Kejak's signature style.

    So, when it triggers as a blasphemy, a sidereal gets dispatched to investigate. They arrive to find thousands of people praying to the bronze faction leader as an akuma, and all with apparent knowledge of him (pictures of him with infernal imagery dot the landscape and every shrine and temple in the area, and babies are going around dressed by their mother bald wigs and fake goatees). And they're spreading information on sidereals and what the upcoming fall of heaven means for YOU, citizen (hint: IT INVOLVES PAIN), and thanking him for releasing the jade prison.

    And now the sidereal agents have a major problem with regards to how and who to report it to...
    Last edited by golentan; 2015-09-21 at 11:28 PM.
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    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    Still not as fun as the infernal Cult of Chejop Kejak. Because the Cult of Chejop actually inspires questions about Chejop's loyalties.

    Spoiler
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    Chirality Prohibition index: the duty of cultists is to pray to and expand the worship "Chejop Kejak, our infernal master in heaven, hero of the yozis" each day including proselytizing through any correspondence method where they will expound on his oncoming role in the fall of the sidereals (who are described as accurately as possible) and the tormented screams of the "traitor gods," and their mandatory dress code is to groom themselves as Chejop Kejak's signature style.

    So, when it triggers as a blasphemy, a sidereal gets dispatched to investigate. They arrive to find thousands of people praying to the bronze faction leader as an akuma, and all with apparent knowledge of him (pictures of him with infernal imagery dot the landscape and every shrine and temple in the area, and babies are going around dressed by their mother bald wigs and fake goatees). And they're spreading information on sidereals and what the upcoming fall of heaven means for YOU, citizen (hint: IT INVOLVES PAIN), and thanking him for releasing the jade prison.

    And now the sidereal agents have a major problem with regards to how and who to report it to...
    ...I'm stealing this.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    So. I'm going to be running a one-on-one game that explores the best and worst of the first age from the perspective of a PC lunar with a particular focus on the good and bad of the relationship with the PC's solar mate and the solar's gradual transition into a complete monster. I'd like for the worst of the solars' collective and individual first age excesses to horrify the player, but that's going to be a very tall order, as we've played some very dark games in the past already.

    So I'd like to recruit some help brainstorming, if I could: what are some of the very worst things you can imagine first age solars getting up to without making them so cartoonishly evil that their actions lose dramatic weight?

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by This be Richard View Post
    So. I'm going to be running a one-on-one game that explores the best and worst of the first age from the perspective of a PC lunar with a particular focus on the good and bad of the relationship with the PC's solar mate and the solar's gradual transition into a complete monster. I'd like for the worst of the solars' collective and individual first age excesses to horrify the player, but that's going to be a very tall order, as we've played some very dark games in the past already.

    So I'd like to recruit some help brainstorming, if I could: what are some of the very worst things you can imagine first age solars getting up to without making them so cartoonishly evil that their actions lose dramatic weight?
    I always pictured the first age solars as being THAT evil, if I'm honest. Ripping souls apart to turn them into threads for clothes ("Sexual deviants are in this season"), snorting cocaine off of kidnapped village girls (that they then murder), rape, mind control and genocide all on a global scale... Those kind of things sound ridiculous and silly to us primarily because they don't happen in the real world. If they did happen, however, it would be disgusting and horrifying. That's part of Exalted's charm, in my mind: the utterly ridiculous and absurd are made plausible in the setting and are played largely straight. And if things such as what happens in the Exalted setting WERE to occur... well, Kejak's reaction is understandable.

    ... But if you don't want it to go that badly, keep in mind that most canon examples we have of Solars being evil in the first age has less to do with actual malice, and more that they just didn't care about anyone else anymore. That thing where they created a massive wyld area in Creation for a training exercise (Operation Wyld Hand, i think) was because Solars wanted to win so badly that they were willing to throw countless innocents away into the worst hell imaginable just to gain an edge. You could use that to come up with things a Solar would do. Walk a warstrider through a heavily populated city center (or 3) to deal with some threat a few miles away, use a spell that costs every life for 200 miles, slaughter a country to create a shadowland so you have access to the essence of the dead, etc etc.
    Last edited by HalfTangible; 2015-09-22 at 10:33 AM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    I always pictured the first age solars as being THAT evil, if I'm honest. Ripping souls apart to turn them into threads for clothes ("Sexual deviants are in this season"), snorting cocaine off of kidnapped village girls (that they then murder), rape, mind control and genocide all on a global scale... Those kind of things sound ridiculous and silly to us primarily because they don't happen in the real world. If they did happen, however, it would be disgusting and horrifying. That's part of Exalted's charm, in my mind: the utterly ridiculous and absurd are made plausible in the setting and are played largely straight. And if things such as what happens in the Exalted setting WERE to occur... well, Kejak's reaction is understandable.
    I'm actually pretty comfortable with this level of awfulness from first age solars. I guess, when I talk about what's "cartoonishly evil," I'm referring to things that seem silly even within the context of Exalted... which, I suppose, doesn't encompass very much. Evil for evil's sake and not much else. I should probably throw that qualifier out.

    But I like the idea of it not coming out of malice so much as an increasing disregard for others. What I'd really prefer to do is have a gradual slide, where some heinous acts are perpetrated early on for important reasons, but less and less cause is required to justify horrible things over time until, finally, clothing made out of sundered souls (which I really like, by the by) becomes perfectly acceptable so long as it's more attention-grabbing at the next party than the gossamer dress that whatsherface got from the fair folk in exchange for a small city of innocent mortals under her domain.

    Call me unimaginative, though, but I have a hard time coming up with much in the way of crimes that outstrip what is possible in the real world. Which I don't think is a problem unique to me, given how little the writers of the Infernals book could come up with to make evil things evil beyond making them super rapey.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by This be Richard View Post
    I'm actually pretty comfortable with this level of awfulness from first age solars. I guess, when I talk about what's "cartoonishly evil," I'm referring to things that seem silly even within the context of Exalted... which, I suppose, doesn't encompass very much. Evil for evil's sake and not much else. I should probably throw that qualifier out.

    But I like the idea of it not coming out of malice so much as an increasing disregard for others. What I'd really prefer to do is have a gradual slide, where some heinous acts are perpetrated early on for important reasons, but less and less cause is required to justify horrible things over time until, finally, clothing made out of sundered souls (which I really like, by the by) becomes perfectly acceptable so long as it's more attention-grabbing at the next party than the gossamer dress that whatsherface got from the fair folk in exchange for a small city of innocent mortals under her domain.

    Call me unimaginative, though, but I have a hard time coming up with much in the way of crimes that outstrip what is possible in the real world. Which I don't think is a problem unique to me, given how little the writers of the Infernals book could come up with to make evil things evil beyond making them super rapey.
    Okay, so the thing to remember about the first age solars to me? Most of their early crimes were internally justified with the mandala accords: the treaty between Yu-Shan and the Deliberative guiding the reincarnation of souls.

    "Doesn't matter I use this mortal as a tortured medical experiment, because Mandala Accords: their next life will be one of pleasure and ease because they gave their life for the Solars."

    Except that the final excesses threw that out the window, like kangaroo courts to get soulsteel, or Operation Wyldhand, where the testing of weapons was considered more important than the destruction of the souls lost in the operation.

    Basically, they justified themselves in the conduction of wars, killings, and experiments by promising gifts in the next life, and then annihilated in horrifying ways that possibility for millions of victims. Remember that KIND of disregard and hypocrisy, and that because the party line was "Reincarnation rewards, so do whatever you want to the mortals whether for profit or sadistic glee" and guide your writing accordingly.
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  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by This be Richard View Post
    I'm actually pretty comfortable with this level of awfulness from first age solars. I guess, when I talk about what's "cartoonishly evil," I'm referring to things that seem silly even within the context of Exalted... which, I suppose, doesn't encompass very much. Evil for evil's sake and not much else. I should probably throw that qualifier out.

    But I like the idea of it not coming out of malice so much as an increasing disregard for others. What I'd really prefer to do is have a gradual slide, where some heinous acts are perpetrated early on for important reasons, but less and less cause is required to justify horrible things over time until, finally, clothing made out of sundered souls (which I really like, by the by) becomes perfectly acceptable so long as it's more attention-grabbing at the next party than the gossamer dress that whatsherface got from the fair folk in exchange for a small city of innocent mortals under her domain.

    Call me unimaginative, though, but I have a hard time coming up with much in the way of crimes that outstrip what is possible in the real world. Which I don't think is a problem unique to me, given how little the writers of the Infernals book could come up with to make evil things evil beyond making them super rapey.
    Rape is overused as an evil trope by a lot of people primarily because it's one of the only crimes you can commit that absolutely requires a victim, and thus is one of the hardest things to justify. It's possible to kill in self defense or steal something that was originally stolen from you, as an example, but there's no such thing as 'rape in self defense'. So it's something you can be absolutely sure your audience is going to see as evil.

    Since the Solars are basically 'human but bigger' you could probably grab a crime from the real world and make it 'that but bigger'. Or use magic to enforce something similar. Like, you could devise a sorcerey spell that steals free will/aggressiveness in an area to make a peaceful city, but one where the people often don't feed themselves because of how passive they are. Or create 'North Korea but with giant robots'.

    An idea I had for my Dawn's first-age incarnation was that as the first age went on, she descended back into her old piracy habits: stealing, raiding, looting and killing not because she needed to (as she basically did when she was mortal) but because she was bored and needed a thrill. A Twilight caste could push hard to make soulsteel production a regular thing so that research can be done into it, or murder someone specifically to test a type of ghost-summoning/ressurection spell. There's a lot you can do with Exalted's setting to create horrible atrocities.
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  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Thank you for the advice! I'll keep on brainstorming.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    Okay, so the thing to remember about the first age solars to me? Most of their early crimes were internally justified with the mandala accords: the treaty between Yu-Shan and the Deliberative guiding the reincarnation of souls.

    "Doesn't matter I use this mortal as a tortured medical experiment, because Mandala Accords: their next life will be one of pleasure and ease because they gave their life for the Solars."
    So what happens if that mortal gets squashed during a warstrider joyride? Do they keep reincarnating into cushy lives for as long as those lives keep ending prematurely at the hands of an irresponsible Solar?

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    Like, you could devise a sorcerey spell that steals free will/aggressiveness in an area to make a peaceful city, but one where the people often don't feed themselves because of how passive they are.
    Don't forget the part where it has the exact opposite effect on about 10% of the population, who then go on to become the horrid boogeymen of the entire region.
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    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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