Personal Woes and Advice 4

[Skeppio]

Yeah, I agree that for this event it's impossible to tune out gender.

Yes, you've made that abundantly clear already, but I'm still thinking maybe you could try to work on accepting it, at least a bit more. I am pretty sure you'll have better opportunities to make it more like what you want later in life, if only because technology never stops improving. Just ask trans people who transitioned 10-15+ years ago.

There are 3.5 billion humans who are shorter than average... it's really not the end of the world to be short.

You're not any uglier than your twin, who is certainly officially decently attractive (according to other people).

And there are tons of nerdy-not-into-sports people out there. No one ever said you had to become sporty or in great physical shape to fit in.

So far there's nothing in there that you need to change. Millions of short nerdy people who aren't into sports and who look like your twin manage to have very pleasant lives.

As someone suggested a while ago, I'm sure that on this board (and/or others like it) you'd easily find fellow nerdy Australians.

And by the way, based on your posts, your English is excellent, which means you're certainly well-learned, intelligent and educated... certainly more than the average Australian, I'd guess. So that's already a major plus, for being successful at life in general.

So why suggest that I do so if you acknowledge it's not possible?

I can't just "accept it". You're sounding like those people that tell others to "get over" depression. It's not that simple, and it only gets harder to transition the older I get.

I may not be "uglier", but there's a difference: He identifies as male, so his looks fit him. I do not, so my looks are completely mismatched for me. If someone says I look handsome, great! They like how I look in a state that makes me wish I was dead every waking moment! Wow, what an uplifting thought! :D

Society says that. If you're a "nerd", you're not social here. This country is a hive of muscle-bound sport fanatics, and they hate any sign of weakness. And I am just one big weakness for them to bully.

Even the other nerds don't want me. They've already got their friends, and at their age (after high school), they don't want any newcomers to muscle in and try to join the fun.

I'd need to change everything about myself, and embrace the very things that make me hate myself, in order to fit in. I'd have to live a self-torturing lie every day just for someone to like me.

Nope. They've all long since left for greener pastures. We tried it before, it sucked.

Being intelligent just means I'm hated and bullied here. Intelligence is not respected, it's despised.

[lio45]

So why suggest that I do so if you acknowledge it's not possible?

My initial suggestion was to go to that dating event as a guy, and look for the kind of partner that you're attracted to.

My toned-down, more recent suggestion is to wait for another event that has nothing to do at all with gender or dating (in other words, start searching for one open to newcomers that matches your interests reasonably well, they're definitely out there) and go to that event as an asexual individual with gender completely tuned out of your mind for the duration of it, i.e. attending the event as a Vaarsuvius who doesn't look like the hideous abomination you keep saying you are.

Society says that. If you're a "nerd", you're not social here. This country is a hive of muscle-bound sport fanatics, and they hate any sign of weakness. And I am just one big weakness for them to bully.

I think you're exaggerating.

I have one of my exes who moved to Australia a few years ago, I'm curious to know if she'll confirm what you say (that it's that bad for nerds).

Being intelligent just means I'm hated and bullied here. Intelligence is not respected, it's despised.

Definitely not true in general.

[Skeppio]

My initial suggestion was to go to that dating event as a guy, and look for the kind of partner that you're attracted to.

My toned-down, more recent suggestion is to wait for another event that has nothing to do at all with gender or dating (in other words, start searching for one open to newcomers that matches your interests reasonably well, they're definitely out there) and go to that event as an asexual individual with gender completely tuned out of your mind for the duration of it, i.e. attending the event as a Vaarsuvius who doesn't look like the hideous abomination you keep saying you are.




I think you're exaggerating.

I have one of my exes who moved to Australia a few years ago, I'm curious to know if she'll confirm what you say (that it's that bad for nerds).



Definitely not true in general.

Why would I go to an event that has nothing to do with dating and pretend I'm asexual? That's the exact opposite message to what I want to send!

She's a girl, she'll never have the same problems.

Intelligence is always hated and bullied here.

[Cazero]

Why would I go to an event that has nothing to do with dating and pretend I'm asexual? That's the exact opposite message to what I want to send!

I think the idea was less 'pretend to be asexual' and more 'hope sex, dating and gender don't come up in a conversation', to see how you fare in casual socialization outside of dating.

But if you're dead set on a date, there is nothing more I can do to help you. Never had one and just stopped caring a few years ago.

[lio45]

Why would I go to an event that has nothing to do with dating and pretend I'm asexual? That's the exact opposite message to what I want to send!

Well, you know, there's also the diametrically opposed suggestion that makes sense as well:

Focus all your efforts and energy towards transitioning ASAP. Hormones, surgery, the works. (I know the timelines for all of this might be extremely slow, but still, the idea would be to get on track and don't waste any time.) In the meantime, forget about a social life and even more about finding a relationship partner, because you'll be going through a long purgatory period of feeling like a disgusting freak of nature and it would be a waste of time and energy to attempt things like that.

On the other hand, during that period, you could at least (for some semblance of socialization) be active on online forums of people with interests aligned with yours as a true "female", which is what you're intending to become anyway, so morally, I don't see a problem with that (and as long as you don't have to meet anyone from the Internets, it works. You even said yourself there's another forum right now on which you identify as female, not trans.)

[lio45]

She's a girl, she'll never have the same problems.

Intelligence is always hated and bullied here.

Actually, now that I think about it, she's been complaining that Australians are very macho, and that she's expected to be dumb while the guys are in charge.

Her bf was pissed at least a few times because she was the one who was right about their car problems. (I'm a big car guy, I guess some of my knowledge rubbed off on her while we were dating.)

She's smart (she's a physicist like me, and currently finishing her PhD down under) and she's reported to me a few times that her bf feels a bit that her level of education and intelligence is a "threat" to him, in a certain way. He's not the unilaterally dominant figure on all levels...

So, I'd say that what you're saying kinda mirrors what I've heard as well.

You could consider leaving Australia, maybe? I mean, this planet is big enough, it's definitely not like there aren't options...

[Crow]

That doesn't work. Physical strength is the kind people like, not some Disney-esque inner strength nonsense. Likewise, it won't make me attractive, as I'm not physically attractive, the type people care about. Being short is just the icing on the cake. Because of that, people see me as literally and figuratively less of a person.

If people cant see a trait of mine, to them it doesn't exist. Judging the book by its cover is how it all works here. And I cannot have an acceptable cover due to the previously mentioned genetic imperfections.

I was talking about physical strength. It would seem the ship has sailed on the other kind so far, but building physical strength and a body that you like can do a lot to help with that too.

[HalfTangible]

Why would I go to an event that has nothing to do with dating and pretend I'm asexual? That's the exact opposite message to what I want to send!

This could be my lack of dating experience talking, but to me the better question is "Why would you want to advertise that you want sex when you first meet someone?". I've met girls who have either made their interest in me plain to see or come right out and said 'David, i want you'. It's weird and confusing at best, creepy and unsettling at worst. You don't need to leave your libido at the door, but you could at least talk and gauge their own interests first. You could easily meet someone who you like as a friend, but it would be a bad idea to date. That happens a lot.

You've stated previously that you don't consider yourself skilled in social contexts. Social interaction - like any skill - is something that takes practice and time. Even if you don't find someone you want to date in such a scenario, you can flex your social muscles a bit. It's like exercise, but with a metaphorical muscle!

Intelligence is always hated and bullied here.

Intelligence is hated and bullied everywhere, that doesn't make it any less valuable.

That doesn't work. Physical strength is the kind people like, not some Disney-esque inner strength nonsense. Likewise, it won't make me attractive, as I'm not physically attractive, the type people care about.

Putting aside for the moment that plenty of people prefer personality over looks (and that Disney also idolizes physical attractiveness) physical fitness is often cited as a measure of physical attractiveness, and regular exercise provides a massive confidence boost =/ Are you doing that? If so, you could do more.

I haven't met you, so I dunno what that would do for you or if you already are, but it's an idea.

[lio45]

I was talking about physical strength. It would seem the ship has sailed on the other kind so far, but building physical strength and a body that you like can do a lot to help with that too.

Putting aside for the moment that plenty of people prefer personality over looks (and that Disney also idolizes physical attractiveness) physical fitness is often cited as a measure of physical attractiveness, and regular exercise provides a massive confidence boost =/ Are you doing that? If so, you could do more.

Guys, the last thing Skeppio wants is increased muscular mass and testosterone levels.

The advice from Crow "just build a body you like by going to the gym" doesn't work here at all. The problem about the body isn't that said body isn't muscular and manly enough, but rather the nearly exact opposite.

Well, I mean, it could maybe work if Skep decided to give up transitioning and learn to accept to make peace with the fact of being trapped in a male body.

Then yes, of course, why not whip that body into good physical shape. That'd unambiguously make this male Skeppio more attractive in general to both gay male and hetero female potential relationship partners.

But to keep the possibility of transitioning later as open as possible, I think it'd be better to remain a weak, effeminate individual for the time being.

[Crow]

Ok, but it obviously isn't working for him, sooooo....

[lio45]

Ok, but it obviously isn't working for him, sooooo....

I kinda agree with you (though I'd not sure I'd call her "him"?) that something has to change.

In my opinion there are two clear paths to choose from (and a third path that's a bit more in the middle). Summed up as:



1) Assume you're just trapped in the wrong body and make great lemonade from that lemon. You're decently good-looking (your identical twin gets compliments for looks) so that's already something. Get out and meet people. Work on improving your social skills. Look for a partner on dating sites. Go to the gym and start to put some muscle on that male body.


2) Focus on fully transitioning (hormones, surgery) and accept that it's going to be harder to have a fruitful social life while you're this freakish "abomination" (again, your words), let alone finding a partner, but at least, you'll know there's light at the end of that tunnel thanks to the near miracles that modern medical and technological advances now allow for trans women. In the meantime, you can identify as "female" online, since that's what you'll be eventually, and as least have some kind of social life online.


and 1.5) Be an asexual individual (by default, obviously, a guy, but I'd be picturing a Vaarsuvius, I think it's a good example) for the time being and focus on making friends, attending social events, improving your social skills while you're still a decent-looking individual (again, your identical twin's reasonably good looks). You can transition later, when you'll be ready and more confident in yourself.


And of course, since you're clinically depressed, you should also be getting help for that (which, last I checked, you were doing, hence my omission of that in the advice).

[HalfTangible]

Guys, the last thing Skeppio wants is increased muscular mass and testosterone levels.

Fit women are attractive to many, too >.>

[lio45]

Fit women are attractive to many, too >.>

We were talking about "physical strength".

Muscular women are generally not considered attractive by hetero males. The near-consensus on what a sexy female body is does not involve lots of muscle.

Now, yes, if Skeppio is "unfit" i.e. very overweight, for example, then yes, getting more "fit" (not the same thing as getting "stronger") would be a good idea, regardless of gender.

But again, we were talking about "building physical strength" (exact quote).

[Crow]

Very strong and looks darn good to me.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sFVohSUvHWo/maxresdefault.jpg

(Sorry for crappy link, I'm on my phone)

[lio45]

Very strong and looks darn good to me.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sFVohSUvHWo/maxresdefault.jpg

(Sorry for crappy link, I'm on my phone)

She isn't lifting that much on that pic, and most importantly, she would still look great if she didn't lift weights.

I'm pretty confident I speak for Skeppio when I say that weightlifting won't help fix the "I strongly dislike my current body" problem, 'cause the problem with it is not the lack of muscular mass.

Anyway, I think ideas are always welcome, the more the merrier, and the more likely Skeppio finds something among it that can help... my intention wasn't at all to ask advice-givers to shut up. Sorry if I came across as rude :)

[HalfTangible]

She isn't lifting that much on that pic, and most importantly, she would still look great if she didn't lift weights.

I'm pretty confident I speak for Skeppio when I say that weightlifting won't help fix the "I strongly dislike my current body" problem, 'cause the problem with it is not the lack of muscular mass.

Anyway, I think ideas are always welcome, the more the merrier, and the more likely Skeppio finds something among it that can help... my intention wasn't at all to ask advice-givers to shut up. Sorry if I came across as rude :)

Skeppio stated previously that she thought the problem was that she lacked physical strength.

We were talking about "physical strength".

Muscular women are generally not considered attractive by hetero males. The near-consensus on what a sexy female body is does not involve lots of muscle.

Now, yes, if Skeppio is "unfit" i.e. very overweight, for example, then yes, getting more "fit" (not the same thing as getting "stronger") would be a good idea, regardless of gender.

But again, we were talking about "building physical strength" (exact quote).

1) What hetero men have YOU been talking to?
2) Skeppio stated outright that she wanted physical strength so that she could be more attractive.
3) How exactly would you propose 'building physical strength' other than exercise?
4) We're not talking olympic steroid muscles here.

[lio45]

Skeppio stated previously that she thought the problem was that she lacked physical strength.

Post #83, "Likewise, [physical strength] won't make me attractive, as I'm not physically attractive, the type people care about."

You and I don't seem to be interpreting Skeppio's posts the same way... I mean, you read this, below, and you go on to suggest bodybuilding to fix what's wrong with Skeppio's body?

I'M NOT A GUY!!!!
I was born in the wrong body, but I'm not meant to be a guy! Every moment in this body is agony and makes me beg for death! Any social gain from "staying male" is built on lies and presenting myself in a way that makes my life intolerable. Every time I'm called male, it's like being stabbed with a knife. It's a bitter reminder that I will never look or feel correct in my body, and I'll always be a malformed abomination.

1) What hetero men have YOU been talking to?
2) Skeppio stated outright that she wanted physical strength so that she could be more attractive.
3) How exactly would you propose 'building physical strength' other than exercise?
4) We're not talking olympic steroid muscles here.

1) Tons of them, my friends mostly, from several different circles. The "bodybuilding female" is generally not considered optimal, if we're talking about looks.

2) I did not see Skeppio state that.

3) I am far from sure Skeppio's goal at the moment is to build physical strength.

4) The threshold of how much muscle is generally considered attractive is quite low for a woman. Olympic steroid muscles would really be a turnoff for, I dare say, most guys.

And I would add: I don't think I've ever seen a case in my entire life (I've been going to gyms regularly for many years, and I have a lot of sporty people in my circles including women) in which a non-attractive non-muscular non-overweight female has managed to turn into an attractive female through bodybuilding.

If a girl who's been gaining muscular mass through weightlifting looks good (Crow's link, for example) then it's nearly guaranteed she'd still look good (and even possibly better) with less physical strength.

[Skeppio]

To sum things up:

• I'm not interested in getting muscular.
• Being muscular would make me more attractive, but only if I stay male.
• Staying male gives me constant self-loathing.
• I have too much to lose if I start transitioning, and it would cripple my social chances even further for years.
• I'm already receiving therapy, but it's insufficient, as it cannot do anything about external factors like other people's perception of me.
• Presenting myself as asexual is counter-productive, as my goal is to find a partner, not merely make a friend (the level of affection that is considered okay with "just friends" is very very limited here).
• I already scour dating sites of all kinds to find people, with a 100% failure rate.
• Both options regarding my gender will create unavoidable and impassable problems, rendering me unable to achieve my goals.
• There is quite simply, no hope for me.

[lio45]

[*]Staying male gives me constant self-loathing.[*]I have too much to lose if I start transitioning, and it would cripple my social chances even further for years.

I would say both of these (they, of course, are incompatible; you have to pick one) might not be as bad as you make them sound like.

You could try to learn to make peace with the body in which you're trapped anyway, and use it as an asset to attract and keep a partner (which seems to be one of your priorities) who'd genuinely like you.

And if you start transitioning, you can't seriously think you have "too much to lose", you've been hell-bent on driving home the point to all of us that you have absolutely nothing to lose at the moment! At least you'd have light at the end of that long tunnel, which would already be a major improvement.

To be blunt, if your main goal is to find a partner, then the best ways to work towards that is to make sure you are either a decently-attractive guy or a post-successful-transition girl.

The former is a lot quicker and easier, but the latter is what you really want.

It's up to you.

[Skeppio]

I would say both of these (they, of course, are incompatible; you have to pick one) might not be as bad as you make them sound like.

You could try to learn to make peace with the body in which you're trapped anyway, and use it as an asset to attract and keep a partner (which seems to be one of your priorities) who'd genuinely like you.

And if you start transitioning, you can't seriously think you have "too much to lose", you've been hell-bent on driving home the point to all of us that you have absolutely nothing to lose at the moment! At least you'd have light at the end of that long tunnel, which would already be a major improvement.

To be blunt, if your main goal is to find a partner, then the best ways to work towards that is to make sure you are either a decently-attractive guy or a post-successful-transition girl.

The former is a lot quicker and easier, but the latter is what you really want.

It's up to you.

You're right, they're not as bad. They're even worse.

I can't make peace with this body. It'll always feel horribly wrong. And no possible partner would find this body attractive. People have found my brother attractive, but specifically only him, not me.

I can still lose the few family and friends I have contact with. And that light is at the end of a near-infinitely long tunnel of pain and agony. I'd have killed myself before I came close to a glimmer of light.

To find a partner that'd want me, I'd have to have been born on a different planet or born a completely different person.

Both are what I want, but I can never have either.

[Crow]

She isn't lifting that much on that pic, and most importantly, she would still look great if she didn't lift weights.

Knowing her I can say that she is capable of FAR more weight.

But I was using her as an example of how women can look muscular and great. Looking like a behemoth only happens with concerted effort or chemical assistance. Being muscular doesn't preclude transitioning and looking feminine.

But anyways back to Skeppio... If people have found your brother attractive but not you; perhaps it is something other than your body? Your attitude maybe?

Edit: What I mean to say is maybe you're projecting your own negative self image and it is changing how others see you.

[Skeppio]

But anyways back to Skeppio... If people have found your brother attractive but not you; perhaps it is something other than your body? Your attitude maybe?

Edit: What I mean to say is maybe you're projecting your own negative self image and it is changing how others see you.

But even when I'm cheerful and friendly, I'm just not liked. While he is. I don't get it. I know I'm shier, but I have reason to be shy. :/

[lio45]

You're right, they're not as bad. They're even worse.

I can't make peace with this body. It'll always feel horribly wrong.

That's what you think at the moment (in your mid-twenties), but you might very well be wrong.

It's just a shell of flesh and bones. You can decide to accept it and make the most of it. Your disgust can be overcome. There are currently over 3.5 billion souls out there walking around using male bodies as their vehicles, I guarantee there's nothing fundamentally disgusting about a male body. It's in your head.

And no possible partner would find this body attractive. People have found my brother attractive, but specifically only him, not me.

Now this is patently ridiculous. You two are IDENTICAL TWINS. Genetic CLONES of each other.

There's nothing he manages to do you can't do.

I can still lose the few family and friends I have contact with. And that light is at the end of a near-infinitely long tunnel of pain and agony. I'd have killed myself before I came close to a glimmer of light.

What's a mere few years in a lifetime? And you can't really "lose" family, they're family. Plus, any true friends/family you've still got (believe me, your attitude is kinda off-putting) are pretty much guaranteed to stick with you through transition, 'cause it's not like it can make you worse than you currently are. It would be business as usual for the current Skeppio (no partner and few friends, but active online), just for a while, but with true light at the end of the tunnel.

[Skeppio]

That's what you think at the moment (in your mid-twenties), but you might very well be wrong.

It's just a shell of flesh and bones. You can decide to accept it and make the most of it. Your disgust can be overcome. There are currently over 3.5 billion souls out there walking around using male bodies as their vehicles, I guarantee there's nothing fundamentally disgusting about a male body. It's in your head.




Now this is patently ridiculous. You two are IDENTICAL TWINS. Genetic CLONES of each other.

There's nothing he manages to do you can't do.





What's a mere few years in a lifetime? And you can't really "lose" family, they're family. Plus, any true friends/family you've still got (believe me, your attitude is kinda off-putting) are pretty much guaranteed to stick with you through transition, 'cause it's not like it can make you worse than you currently are. It would be business as usual for the current Skeppio (no partner and few friends, but active online), just for a while, but with true light at the end of the tunnel.

You still don't understand how transgenderism works. I can't make peace with this body any more than you could suddenly sprout wings from your back. "Just make peace with it" comments are why it took me so long to even come out about my gender identity. You're just treating me like an insane idiot.

It can get worse. I'm rapidly losing a battle against the urge to kill myself. The longer I'm alone, the harder it gets to avoid those thoughts. And if I transition, I'll be guaranteed to be alone and hated for long enough that I'll certainly lose the fight and kill myself.

Yes, he may be practically identical to me. Yet that's what people have said. They say he's attractive, but I'm not.

[RoyVG]

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring again, I think you are underestimating the psychological effects of transitioning and what THOSE effects can have on your interaction with your environment. Once you have fully transitioned, or even only halfway, you will feel more comfortable with your body, because your body now finally starts matching your identity and mindset. This will have more positive effects on your overall behavior and habits and your environment will show you that. You reflect yourself on your environment, and the environment will respond back to you. To give a personal example, I am terrible at connecting with people and it takes me quite a lot or effort to start a conversation, even with a good friend. My environment shows me that, because right now there is no one, not even my best friends, that 'willingly' talk to me for a quick chat, they only need me for their own selfish needs, to get something out of me.

Also about the identical thing about you and your brother, that is a load of baloney at this point in life. Because if the two of you were completely identical, he would have these same issues with gender identity. He doesn't so you are not identical. You may be on a genetic level, but from a psychological point of view, you are miles away. Don't compare yourself to your brother, because you are not him, you have your own identity. He is attractive in his way, and you are in your way. And if you are not right now, you will be in due time. The only advice I can give you now, and it will be the biggest BS you will hear, is to have a little bit of more patience. If you can do it, wait until you finally start transitioning, because I'm sure it will change you more than you realize now.

[lio45]

You still don't understand how transgenderism works. I can't make peace with this body any more than you could suddenly sprout wings from your back. "Just make peace with it" comments are why it took me so long to even come out about my gender identity. You're just treating me like an insane idiot.

And you don't understand how life works. It might take a while, but people CAN eventually learn to accept what they can't change. (And if they don't want to do that, then they can focus on trying to change what they can't accept. Which is the other option available to you.)

It can get worse. I'm rapidly losing a battle against the urge to kill myself. The longer I'm alone, the harder it gets to avoid those thoughts. And if I transition, I'll be guaranteed to be alone and hated for long enough that I'll certainly lose the fight and kill myself.

This forum's LGBT Support Thread can probably provide support during the process, and I'm pretty sure you have local groups (Melbourne is a large city, it's nearly guaranteed you have that) to support transitioning people. Maybe you'll even make new friends that way.

Why would ANYONE who's still friends with you right now decide to walk away if you start transitioning? It makes ZERO sense to me.

Yes, he may be practically identical to me. Yet that's what people have said. They say he's attractive, but I'm not.

Any attractive individual can look unattractive if they really try (consciously or unconsciously).

Fact is, there's a 100% genetic clone of you out there and that clone has been labeled attractive by several people. So it's definitely within your reach, physically. That fact is not even up for discussion.

[Ifni]

Skeppio, it seems like your current situation/strategy is:

-Feel awful because of gender dysphoria and depression. Feel terrified of the only treatment for gender dysphoria. (This much is reasonable. Transition is scary, and from all I hear, gender dysphoria really sucks. People who are saying 'just cope': I know it's hard to understand for those of us without a strong sense of personal gender identity, but by testimony from people who have it, gender dysphoria really sucks.)
-Accordingly, don't do anything, just try to live with it.
-In order to try to mitigate the awfulness while not actually fixing it, find a partner to provide emotional support.

The thing is? If a friend told me that they'd been asked out by a lovely, kind woman, who had serious depression and was suicidal, who hated all social activities, whose main reason for wanting a partner was emotional support, and who had a tendency to lash out angrily during depressive episodes - my advice to that friend would be to stay away for his or her own emotional health. (It might be love-at-first-sight and they might ignore me, but that would be my advice.) And that advice would be the same if the woman in question was a wealthy Olympic athlete who did modeling in her spare time. The situation just raises all sorts of red flags for emotional dependency and abuse: you never want to be in a relationship where your partner says "I'll kill myself if you leave".

As others have said: if you want to be attractive to people as a partner, you need to figure out how to present yourself as someone who would be a good partner. For most people, this means someone who shares at least a few of their interests, who will like to do (some of) their favorite activities with them, who will provide emotional support to them as well when they're feeling bad (it should be mutual), who will give them space when they need it, and who won't deliberately hurt them. (I'm talking mostly about emotional hurt here, not physical - like getting angry or depressed and taking it out on the closest person, telling them they're a hypocrite who is just using you.)

If you're not in a position to do any of this, and what you want in a partner is someone to spend all their time with you, salve your loneliness and self-esteem issues, and act as an emotional punching bag, then you need to stop and take a step back, because it's not fair to ask that of another human being.

Again as others have said, being a good friend isn't that drastically different from being a good partner (it's a difference of level-of-commitment, yes, but everything I wrote above still applies to friends). One of the earlier posters asked you to think about what kind of friend you wanted to be, and you reacted by only describing what you wanted other people to do for you ("the kind of friend who doesn't get abandoned" was more or less what you said, if I remember correctly), not anything about your own actions or contributions to the friendship. What kind of friend do you want to be? What kind of partner do you want to be? What will you give to other people, to make their investment of time and emotion in you a thing of happiness rather than frustration? If you continually lash out at people, and blame them for pulling back from you when they're hurting and you're making it worse, then eventually they will leave. Everyone has a right to look after their own emotional/mental health first.

I'm guessing that in the throes of deep depression, it feels like you have nothing to give to anyone. Do you still have hobbies? Are they interactive, e.g. playing board games? If so, that is something you have to give, for other people who enjoy board games. Find people who want to listen to what you want to talk about. Find people who talk about things you want to listen to! Just being a good listener can be a gift. If you find a partner among people who you think are all boring jerks with terrible taste in hobbies, and you just want to be near her because she's pretty and makes you feel better about yourself, then the relationship is Not Going To Work, even if it gets started.

We're not saying "try interacting with people in low-stress situations focused on hobbies you enjoy, that are not explicitly focused on finding romantic/sexual partners" because we don't understand that you want a partner. We're making that suggestion because it seems like a way to get practice at interacting with people in a way that demonstrates that you have good qualities to offer as a friend or partner.

EDIT: That said. Yeah. I know depression makes this really, REALLY hard. But I don't think finding a partner is going to be a panacea for your depression, and I suspect that behaviors/attitudes associated with your depression are doing more to drive potential partners away than anything to do with your attractiveness. (This isn't a knock on you. It's an illness. If I was talking to someone with terminal cancer and six months to live who was spending most of their waking hours in hospital, I would also be pretty sure that their illness was a bigger factor in their appearance in why they were having trouble getting a date.)

I was just playing the game Depression Quest. It is, of course, just one group of people's experience with depression. But within those limitations, it does make clear that:
-Having existing relationships helps a lot and not having those relationships makes everything way harder
-Maintaining those relationships through depression is hard enough, and requires the people involved to care about you pretty strongly
-Developing new, healthy relationships while deeply depressed is just... really hard, even if everyone has the best will in the world, and it can be hurtful to everyone involved (not just the depressed person)

I think the game's implied solution is "keep up regular therapy, keep taking medication, it WILL get better and then you can try to do things that your brain just won't let you do when you're depressed". (Also, they seem to think that getting a pet helps. I guess that does combine unconditional love + responsibility...)

[Skeppio]

Right, because people with depression don't deserve to feel loved, right? We're just a plague, right?

There's nothing that'd make me a good partner. I'm worthless. My hobbies are everything that people here hate. Even people who for some reason share my hobbies reject and hate me unconditionally. They've already got their friends and they don't want newcomers to intrude. I missed my chances to make those connections when I was younger, and now I've lost that chance for good. No matter what I do, it's never good enough for people.

No therapy or medication can help me. I've been on both of these things on and off for years now, and made no progress. If anything, it only gets worse. As long as I'm alone, the loneliness will always destroy any glimmer of happiness I feel.

Also, Depression Quest is a ridiculously half-assed and downright insultingly simplified and patronizing depiction of depression. It is not accurate or valid in any way, and the attention it's received is wholly undeserved. I really do not want to speak of that game.

[dehro]

Right, because people with depression don't deserve to feel loved, right? We're just a plague, right?

"Deserve" has nothing to do with this.
Stop making everything that happens in the world about you and try putting yourself in someone else's shoes.
Let's pretend for a minute that you are a somewhat balanced individual who has their life in reasonable order and is on the market for a partner.
Would you want your partner to be someone who is severely depressed, lashes out and is verging on suicidal half the time, or would you think "this person is a handful and I don't think I can deal with such amounts of complications and hurt. Maybe I should look for someone who is happier and won't make my life as miserable as theirs"?
If you can be honest for a minute and accept that very few individuals would willingly engage in a relationship with someone who comes with your amount of bagage and complications, maybe you will come to understand that you not finding a partner is not the world conspiring to tell you you are worthless, but simply the fact that people do have a right to find someone positive to share their life with and that right now positive is something you are not... And people can tell.
The only people who would walk into a potentially self-destructive relationship are people who come with baggages themselves. Can you honestly claim you would be ready and happy to take on their problems on top of your own and wouldn't buckle under the strain? Can't you see what a dysfunctional and problematic relationship that would be?
Sure, anything can happen, but let's face it, the odds are stacked against you and maybe you should just accept that that is probably for the best, at least right now.
You keep telling yourself that a relationship is the cure for loneliness and your only way out of depression. What if you were wrong and you would be better off working on yourself and making yourself into someone people would actually want to be friends and hang out with, before looking for more?
If you wanted to become a physicist.. Would you start with basic thermodynamics or would you jump straight to string theory?
Basic social appeal and aptitude vs friends and vs partnership really isn't that much different a progression, in your context.

[QUOTE=Skeppio;19944795]There's nothing that'd make me a good partner. I'm worthless. My hobbies are everything that people here hate. Even people who for some reason share my hobbies reject and hate me unconditionally. They've already got their friends and they don't want newcomers to intrude. I missed my chances to make those connections when I was younger, and now I've lost that chance for good. No matter what I do, it's never good enough for people.
/QUOTE]
We've gone over this already. Your statements are simply not true and fly in the face of the life experiences of pretty much everybody here and everybody I know outside this place. The only people whose life is or was ruined by missing trains during their formative years are those who let such missed trains define them and ruin their life. Relationships of any degree simply do not work the way you keep claiming they do and people seek and find, by design or accident, new relations at any age or turn of events in their lives. Your desperate clinging to your theory that this is not true or could never be true for you is precisely what is making it not true for you. It's your depression talking and making those decisions for you.

[Skeppio]

You realise you're basically telling me I should and accept and be happy with the very root of my depression, right? It doesn't just come out of nowhere. Loneliness is the core of my depression. Take that away, and the other negative thoughts have no source to feed on and grow.