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2015-09-04, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-09-04, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Regarding intimidation check out Calming armor: swift action to suppress all local emotion affects. Boom, psychic casters without a class ability solutions can buy this.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/a...Abilities.html
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2015-09-04, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Arguable, actually. Afb, doesn't calm emotions also lock out emotion components?
I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
Shadeblight by KennyPyro
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2015-09-04, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
It should, since it's not a harmless spell.
Kitten: *bats around a mini a few times*
DM: "Ok, it looks like Fluffy...err, 'The Tarrasque'...Full Attacks the Cleric"
Cleric: "Full attack my a**, that was just two claw attacks!"
Kitten: *starts gnawing on the mini*
Cleric: "...nevermind."
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2015-09-04, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Calm emotions does, but the armor does not cast the spell, it only uses the spell in its construction.
It's a moot point anyway, the armor only calms down "any agitated opponent threatening her."Last edited by Psyren; 2015-09-04 at 09:50 AM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-09-04, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
I think it's as silly as saying that because Dwarves have a racial ability called "Greed" they take a penalty on saving throws against beguiling gift.
[Race] has an ability called [Name]. Therefore, they suffer [affect that might make sense fluff-wise, but is not even remotely referenced in the ability's description].
Now, if there's something in Occult Adventures that says something like "Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects cannot provide emotion components for spells," I'll cede the point in an instant.
Also - under Wisdom, you still have a reference to emotion components locking you out of spellcasting, which is not the case.
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2015-09-04, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Whereas I think it's silly to state that something that doesn't feel emotions can achieve "a particular emotional state" or feel "desires and animal impulses." And the dwarf example isn't really comparable, because it's not an end-run around an intentional limitation in an entire magic system.
Regardless I do agree with you that it needs to be clarified, but don't be surprised if it is.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-09-04, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
I think it's arguable, but you're probably right. Here's my case.
Calming armor is dyed or stained a soothing color, usually blue. As a swift action, the wearer can create a 5-foot aura around her that quiets the emotions of any agitated opponent threatening her. A creature that is raging or under an emotion effect must succeed at a DC 15 Will saving throw or those effects are suppressed (but not dispelled) for as long as the aura persists. The aura can be used up to 10 rounds each day, though the rounds don't need to be consecutive. Ending the aura is a swift action.
Alas, it's an aura. While not defined anywhere I can find, most aura affects are bursts or emanations with a duration coming from the caster and it seems "aura" is intended as a generic but not formally defined term for those. Usually those spells/affects apply to the caster as well (Paladin Aura of Good, Holy Aura spell), sometimes (e.g. Cloak of Dreams) they don't affect the caster.
Here the "fluff" line is relevant, it indicates this is intended not affect the caster, so you wouldn't lose your morale or positive emotion affects and can't suppress your negative ones.
But I think it would be fair to use this as a template to design a different version that would have the affect we want.
--BREAK--
So another easy way to "shut down" psychic casters occurred to me - continuous damage, such as this spell:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/a...ainStrike.html
Psychic casters under this effect would have to always pass a concentration check of 20+half damage(negligible)+spell level, and with a sickened penalty. Or they could sacrifice a move action to bring it down to 10+etc., but this would make it easier for a melee fighter to get in their face and force two concentration checks if they want to cast a spell by casting on the defensive. Not too bad.
Note that this spell and the mass version are bonus spells for the Pain Psychic discipline, which is this week my favorite discipline. They are also early access for the Psychic, he gets them at spell level 2 and 4. It's a Fortitude save, early access, and especially nasty for psychic casters, so I'd expect it to be a standard selection for Psychics who expect to fight other psychic casters.Last edited by Slithery D; 2015-09-04 at 11:27 AM.
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2015-09-04, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Silence is a good Spell to know for a Mesmerist since they don't have to worry about verbal components to their spells.
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2015-09-05, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Last edited by Novawurmson; 2015-09-05 at 06:07 AM.
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2015-09-05, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Note that some of their spells do still require speech though, e.g. Suggestion.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-09-05, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Or telepathy at higher levels.
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2015-09-08, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Concerning the fear/Intimidate problem, I thought of an interesting solution: the Magical Lineage trait.
It lets a single spell count as -1 level for purposes of metamagic. Any psychic spell caster that has access to Remove Fear could select it with this trait, and use Logical spell with it starting at level 1 as a 1st level spell.
It's a bit of a trait/feat/spell known tax, and it takes a full-round action which sucks, but it's another solution, particularly if you're playing mostly at low levels or in a game with little wealth for rods.Will you take the rocket launcher?
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2015-09-08, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
That's a good catch, but the resource investment and action economy is bad enough on it that I think potions are the way to go, and then only if you're facing 3+ rounds of intimidation.
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2015-09-09, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Love the guide, man. The class looks sick, and I really like your penalty boxer idea.
I'm having some trouble understanding your Big Trouble build, though. From the situation you give it seems like you're vital striking (with piercing strike without having feinted yet), followed by feinting, followed by another attack.
The closest to that I can figure out is feinting as a move action, activating surprise strike, hitting with vital strike, and getting the follow-up attack at a -5. That still wouldn't let you get Piercing Strike in, though.
Or, I guess you could feint as a move action, activate piercing strike, and then attack. Doesn't let you get the second attack, and you suggest in the guide that surprise strike is much better than piercing strike as soon as you get it.
Unless you're suggesting that as you level up as a vexing daredevil you can activate multiple dazzling feint abilities, but that doesn't seem to be true.
I'd love some clarification regarding this archetype build, please ^__^
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2015-09-09, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Anything you're seeing about piercing strike in the build was from my first draft of the build where I somehow thought that piercing strike would turn out to be more damage than surprise strike (which is obviously not the case).
So what you're doing is:
Feint as move action, choosing surprise strike
Vital Strike standard action
If Vital Strike hits, you get the bonus from surprise strike
Interestingly, you can apply multiple dazzling feints on a single attack if you can somehow feint more than once:
At 3rd level, each time a vexing daredevil successfully feints against a creature under the effect of her hypnotic stare, she also chooses one of her dazzling feint benefits to activate.
Here's a few ways I've found to do that with a quick search, but two of them use non-standard subsystems:
Wave Strike
Moonlight Stalker Feint
Passing Trick (possible action economy problems)
Mythic Improved Feint
Greater Feint (with the Stamina system)
There's also the Steel Serpent maneuver Rattler's Feint, but it's 4th level.
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2015-09-10, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Can you feint against a foe while you are invisible?
I can't find anything that specifically prevents it, and it WOULD be useful on enemies that have uncanny dodge and the like.
So you can cast invisibility on yourself, stare down a foe, and move into position on round 1. Round 2 feint as a swift action with moonlight stalker, feint as a move action from improved feint, and you've got 2 dazzling feints to apply to your attack.
If there were some way to attack as a swift action (seems unlikely) the same type of trick would work.
If you want to grab another feat (probably power attack), be human and pick up the trait blood of dragons to gain the requisite low-light vision.
And I am playing with the errata'd version of amateur swashbuckler, so I dropped that to follow this silliness.
1-Blind fight
3-Combat Expertise
5-Moonlight Stalker
7-Intense Pain
9-Vital Strike
11-Moonlight Stalker Feint
Is it good? Probably not. But, I'm amused.
And it comes online just one level after you get greater invisibility, so you can do it several times per combat.
I have a tiny feeling this isn't RAI, but it should work as written, and I like it.Last edited by Ectar; 2015-09-10 at 01:32 AM.
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2015-09-10, 01:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Re: Feinting while invisible. I can't see anything about it, either. After a little thought, I'd allow it as a GM because there are plenty of ways to feint without your opponent seeing you (throwing your voice to make it sound like you're coming from another direction, batting at your opponent's weapon, etc.).
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2015-09-10, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
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2015-09-10, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-09-10, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
For example, to me, that says he was reading forums, posted his opinion, then someone else at Paizo went "Wait, did we decide that's how it works?" and they're in internal discussions.
Because psychic robots and undead shouldn't be crippled on principle. Especially the Androids, who aren't even immune to the effects that lock out emotion components. And yes, having to cast everything through a rod, or with a metamagic feat applied, is crippling.I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
Shadeblight by KennyPyro
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2015-09-10, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
The wording of the Empathy racial feat suggests they are immune, because it allows them to be affected by morale and fear effects. If they're not immune then I agree, it's fine, but if they are then that should be a double-edged sword and they should need the feat to use psychic magic.
Fun fact: Undead aren't actually immune to fear (otherwise you couldn't turn them.) They're immune to mind-affecting, but I wouldn't say that means they're incapable of feeling emotions.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-09-10, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Archives is currently feeding me a 404 error, so I'm running off of PFSRD.
And looking at it, I find the source of confusion. Emotionless is not the relevant racial ability here. All that does is -4 to Sense Motive. Relevant here is the Constructed racial trait
Constructed: For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger's favored enemy and bane weapons), androids count as both humanoids and constructs. Androids gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun effects, are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, and are immune to disease and sleep effects. Androids can never gain morale bonuses, and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects (2 RP.)
Funny, since that has nothing intrinsically linking it to being emotionless.
As far as the undead thing, IIRC, it comes down to the line about all Fear effects being mind affecting. I've brought up the same argument, and always get the response of turning being a specific overriding the general of undead being immune.Last edited by Vhaidara; 2015-09-10 at 04:14 PM. Reason: bolding relevant line
I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
Shadeblight by KennyPyro
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2015-09-10, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Ah yes, that's what the immunity is coming from. Regardless, that feat does remove their immunity along with the emotionless quality.
Regardless, I take the viewpoint that if you're immune to emotions you shouldn't be able to provide emotion components.
Right, I agree it's a specific exception, I just brought it up to demonstrate that there are exceptions at all.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-09-11, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Mark and I actually had a conversation about that back when Paizo reintroduced the language making Intimidate a mind-affecting fear effect that had previously been removed during the conversion from 3.5. Apparently as far as Paizo is concerned, undead cannot feel emotions. That's also why they have some psychic creatures that really should be undead, like the Spiritualist's Phantom, as outsiders instead.
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2015-09-12, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
::facepalm:: I can't believe the text for them being immune to emotion-based effects was right above Emotionless. You were right, Psyren. Changing it in the guide now.
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2015-09-12, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-09-12, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide
Mental Potency (Ex): At 5th level, the mesmerist can affect more powerful creatures or a greater number of creatures than normal with his mental effects. Both the HD limit and the total number of HD affected with each enchantment or illusion spell he casts increase by 1. For enchantment and illusion spells he casts that target a number of creatures greater than one, the number of creatures affected also increases by one (so a spell that targets one creature per level would be affected, but a spell that targets only one creature would not be). For example, a 5thlevel mesmerist could affect 5 HD worth of creatures with sleep, affect 2d4+1 HD worth of creatures with hypnotism, and change the categories for color spray to “3 HD or fewer,” “4 or 5 HD,” and “6 or more HD.” The number of additional HD or creatures increases by an additional 1 for every 5 levels beyond 5th, to a maximum increase of 4 at 20th level.
Are there any Conjuration or Evocation spells that have an HD limit?
I know the additional number of affected targets part would be usefull to some extent.
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2015-09-12, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-09-12, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide