Hearthstone 13: Inspire: Shuffle Meta

[Zevox]

I kind of agree, I'd like to see more 'you play the deck we build' decks, as it evens out opportunities for players, plus it offers some interesting possibilites, like violating the 2 card cap.

I very much agree with that. Ragnaros v Nefarian and the TGT preview Brawl were easily my favorites, entirely because they were prebuilt decks. Also partially because they let you play with cards you didn't normally have access to (granted only because they weren't out yet in the latter case, but still), but I think even a Brawl with prebuilt decks that didn't have anything not normally available would still be more fun than any other type of Brawl they've done.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Just realized this Brawl makes Dr. Balanced even more balanced.

[The_Jackal]

Just realized this Brawl makes Dr. Balanced even more balanced.

I hereby propose that we change Dr. Balanced's name to 'Omnipresent Goblin', in honor of a great hero of our time.

[Hamste]

Eh, I'd say I like this Brawl more than the usual "let's just add more RNG to the game" ones, but less than the extra mana ones or the preconstructed deck ones.

The main thing that keeps me from really liking it is that it feels like it restricts deck options more than anything else. You absolutely have to throw in all the good deathrattles (Shredder, Creeper, Loot Hoarder, Nerubian Egg, etc), then add whatever class cards seem good, some silence because you know your opponent will have a ton of deathrattles, and maybe Undertaker and/or Lil Exorcist if you can fit them, and that's pretty much the deck, every time. You can maybe tweak it more towards aggro (Leper Gnome) or control (Piloted Sky Golem, Sneed's Old Shredder), but most decks will look a lot alike, which is kind of dull.

Knife Juggler is pretty good as well thanks to double deathrattle summons.

[The_Jackal]

Knife Juggler is pretty good as well thanks to double deathrattle summons.

I think he's a bit of a 'win more' choice, since your can rely on your opponents to kill him first unless you contrive to stop them. That said, Turn 2 creeper into turn 3 juggalo did get a lot stronger.

[TechnoWarforged]

Went face huntard for this Tavern Brawl mainly due to having the 2 win hunter/druid quest. I don't feel like rerolling because I'm having terrible luck with quest lately.

lost the first match vs another face hunter... ball of spiders became decent because the 1/1 spiders are giving you two beast and refill your hand quickly late game. I counter with lil exoist but he just keep running spiders into it until he got an owl to silence me. I got him down to 4 but he played a king of beast and it was GG for me.

The next one was vs a Shaman... I'm guessing he's trying the reincarnate combo but it was just too slow. He had Feugen out but decided to hit my face and triggered my freezing trap. I managed to finished him off before I get to see what the rest of his deck look like.

Then I got pitted against a zoo... he could have won but he decided to hit my harvest golem with my knife juggler still on the board... it spawned 2 2/1 and it killed the rest of the 1/1 he had on the table... He hellfired anyways but I just played more sticky creatures afterwards and just out raced him in dmg.




Then with sufficient gold I tried an arena:

Spoiler: My Mage Draft!

Show

(Mage)/Warrior/Hunter

1.(Argent Commander)/Crazed Alchemist/Ancient Mage

2.(Sooth spewer)/Grim Patron/Young Priestess

I was tempted to take Grim Patron. Not sure why it's ranked so low...

3.(Harvest Golem)/Grimscale Oracle/Silverhand Regent

I'm tempted to pick Regent... I think the sure 2/1 spawn is better then a possiblity of many 1/1 spawns later...

4.(Flame Cannon)/Unstable Ghoul/Lord of the Arena

5.(Draknoid Crusher)/Lost Tallstrider/Darkscale Healer

6.(Earthen farseerer)Razorfen Hunter/Ice Barrier

7.(Boneguard Liet)/Venture co Merc/Southsea Deckhand

I'm flooded with a lot of decent 3 drops but not seeing any 2s... and the venture co is very tempting pick... not sure if I picked correctly

8.(Murkla's Champion)/Blackwing Corruptor/Arcane explosion

Heartharena say Blackwing Corruptor (by a bit) due to synergy with Draknoid Crusker, but even without the synergy the 5/4 body is better then the 4/3 body...I think I've made a mistake here.

9.(Bluegrill Warrior)/Tournament Attendee/Murloc Tidehunter

10.(Kirin Tor Mage)/Counterspell/Fencing Coach

11.(Lost Tallstrider)/War Golem/Mad scientist

Feels like I missed the Mad scientist here... Heartharena say Last Tallstrider by a mile... then again it's pick 11.

12.(Flamestrike)/Fen Creeper/Pilot Shredder

13. (Argent Horsemen)/Mirror Image/Tournament Attendee

14. (Tinkertown tech)/Wisp/Shieldbearer

15. (Pilot Shredder)/Frost Elemental/Murloc Raider

16. (Frost Elemental)/Arcane Intellect/Duplicate

17. (Ice Barrier)/Arcane Explosion/Ironforge Riftlemen

Hearthstone Arena actually says to pick Arcane explosion! I kinda loled.

18. (Polymorph Boar)/master swordsmith/Gagetzen Auctioneer

19. (Frostbolt)/Flesheating Ghoul/Reckless Rocketeer

20. (Grand Crusader)/Clockwork Giant/Spellbinder

21. (Mechwarper)/Salty dog/Archmage

22. (Sorceress Apprentice)/Northsea Kraken/Argent Squire

Heartharena says release the Kraken! but I wanted the girl :(

23. (Lowly Squire)/Flamelance/Scarlet Crusader

Heartharena says Flamelance. I would have picked Crusader but I'm flooded with 3 drops

24. (Sunwalker)/Goblin Blastmage/Coliseum Manger

Heartharena says Blastmage from all the mech I have. I think Sunwalker is the safer choice.

25. (Novice Engineer) / Silent Knight/ Raging Worgan

Heartharena says silent Knight... I'm thinking this is probably my last chance at a 2 drop.

26. (Flamestrike)/Grimscale Oracle/Mana Wyrm

27. (Mana Wyrm)/War Golem/Spellbinder

Really tempted to picked the War Golem because I don't have a finisher. Mana Wyrm for early game.

28. (Spellbreaker)/Goldshire Footman/Gurbashi Berserker

29. (Questing Adventurer)/Flamewalker/Target Dummy

Heartharena says flamewalker due to all the spell synergy.

30. (Madder Bomber)/ Kirin Tor Mage/ Saboteur

So far I'm 3-0. Looking back I don't think I've made good picks but the two flamestrike carried me. I actually went to reddit and saw a posting about kripp's advince on Arena... I tried to remember some of the advice including envisioning my deck's win condition... which in this case is mid-range... I need to survive and do some damage into the mid game and then go for the face because I got no big creatures into the late game. I need to bait a lot of creatures out and then flame strike them and then start the damage race.

This is also the best deck I've drafted mainly due to dumb luck (two flamestrike, Flame cannon, and a Frost bolt) but it's also strange since I got so many three drops. We'll see if my luck continues.

[Joran]

I think it takes less to dislodge a deck from the meta than you might think. Nerfing the Gadgetzan Auctioneer only pushed its mana cost up by one, yet it went from being a dominant component to the meta to completely non-existent. The notion that Patron could have one less attack and yet still be viable against aggro is more evidence, I think, that it's an appropriate nerf. Going from 3 to 2 attack also opens it up to shenanigans like Cabal Shadow Priest.

There's lots of decks that can deliver a big chunk of damage in an OTK, when their combo shows up, though. What makes patron so strong currently is that it's components are strong enough outside the combo to hang in there in an attrition battle until the combo can be brought to bear. In any case, my point remains: "Patron created this problem, Patron should be nerfed to fix it".

The reason why Patron Warrior is so much better and consistent than Math Warrior is because the Patron's self-replicating ability means that the warrior can now provide his own board to combo for large Frothing Berserkers Turns as well as a flood of Patrons providing an additional win condition. Most people's problem isn't with Patrons themselves (almost all classes have ways of removing a flood of 3 health minions), but with the ridiculous OTK damage conditions where even armoring up to 25 with an empty board doesn't protect them. Reducing their damage to 2 would lower the power of the deck a bit, but it wouldn't solve the underlying problem of really heavily buffed Frothings. Some decks can do a lot of burst from hand (hello Malygos), but not 50+.

Back when Blizzard was still nerfing cards, they nerfed Miracle Rogue and they nerfed Buzzard + Unleash because they didn't think OTK combos were fun and they didn't think punishing someone for playing minions was fun either. Frothing Berserker violates both.

Honestly, I think Patron is a fun deck that seems mostly balanced (except for heavy control decks), but it has a pretty good matchup percentage against all decks, with no clear weaknesses and can be frustrating to play against.

I've seen a lot of suggestions about what to nerf, with a lot of people targeting different pieces:

Emperor Thaurissan nerfs:

1) Stop him from reducing costs below 1: This already has precedence in cards like Summoning Portal. Would stop some of really big frothing turns by limiting the number of free whirlwind effects.

2) Make Thaurissan proc at the beginning of the turn: Frankly, this would kill the card and make it unplayable. I've rarely seen Thaurissan live past one turn and a 6 mana 5/5 is terrible.

Warsong Commander nerfs:

1) Limit the charge given to minions to 3 or below; if the creature goes above then charge is removed: I don't find this to be that overpowering since I do like the Inner Rage Patron getting charge and there are other cards like Raging Worgen that would be affected.

Frothing Berserker nerfs:

1) I think Trump was the one who suggested Frothing Berserkers get nerfed to 2/3 so that only 2 whirlwind effects can be used: I wonder how much this limits the "out of hand" OTKs with no board.
2) Berserkers only proc on friendly minions taking damage: I like this nerf quite a bit since it does fix the problem where enemies were scared to play minions because it'd add more damage to the berserkers.

Battle Rage nerfs:

1) Brian Kibler suggested that since Patron is a combo deck, attacking the insane card draw of Battle Rage might be the answer. He suggested that it only draw cards from damaged minions, excluding face damage. That makes it useless as just a plain cycle and lowers the card draw and thus time for the Patron Warrior to draw the requisite combo cards.

[AgentPaper]

I've seen the suggestion to make Frothing Berserker a 3/3, and I think that's a good one. It has all the benefits of making it a 2/3 (only two whirlwind effects rather than 3), but with a slight buff to damage to ease the pain a bit.

More than anything, I think the key thing to keep in mind is that Patron Warrior isn't a problem because it's powerful (it is, but not as dominant as problem decks of the past, and that dominance is already slipping), it's a problem because of the explosive burst potential it has. Being able to deal that much damage in a single turn is not healthy for the game, regardless of whether it makes the deck too strong or not.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: Draft comments

Show

2.(Sooth spewer)/Grim Patron/Young Priestess

I was tempted to take Grim Patron. Not sure why it's ranked so low...

3/3 for 5. In Mage, 6/5 for 7, so not as bad. Still, unless you get quite lucky, you're getting subpar value.

3.(Harvest Golem)/Grimscale Oracle/Silverhand Regent

I'm tempted to pick Regent... I think the sure 2/1 spawn is better then a possiblity of many 1/1 spawns later...

Golem is easily the better card.

7.(Boneguard Liet)/Venture co Merc/Southsea Deckhand

I'm flooded with a lot of decent 3 drops but not seeing any 2s... and the venture co is very tempting pick... not sure if I picked correctly

I'd pick Venture Co. here, but I'm greedy. Boneguard is fine.

8.(Murkla's Champion)/Blackwing Corruptor/Arcane explosion

Heartharena say Blackwing Corruptor (by a bit) due to synergy with Draknoid Crusker, but even without the synergy the 5/4 body is better then the 4/3 body...I think I've made a mistake here.

I like Mukla's because it's a luxury pick no matter what else you pick. Corruptor is bad unless you draft at least a few other dragons, which probably means making suboptimal picks, which is never worth it.

11.(Lost Tallstrider)/War Golem/Mad scientist

Feels like I missed the Mad scientist here... Heartharena say Last Tallstrider by a mile... then again it's pick 11.

If you already had a couple good secrets you'd pick Mad Scientist, but otherwise, no.

17. (Ice Barrier)/Arcane Explosion/Ironforge Riftlemen

Hearthstone Arena actually says to pick Arcane explosion! I kinda loled.

I'd pick Arcane Explosion. It's more likely to do something useful.

22. (Sorceress Apprentice)/Northsea Kraken/Argent Squire

Heartharena says release the Kraken! but I wanted the girl :(

Definitely release the kraken.

23. (Lowly Squire)/Flamelance/Scarlet Crusader

Heartharena says Flamelance. I would have picked Crusader but I'm flooded with 3 drops

Squire is the worst pick of the three. Flame Lance is a giant-killer, Crusader almost always generates card or tempo advantage. Squire is basically a 3/2 for 3 or a 1/2 for 1, which is weak sauce.

24. (Sunwalker)/Goblin Blastmage/Coliseum Manger

Heartharena says Blastmage from all the mech I have. I think Sunwalker is the safer choice.

Four mechs. Eh. I think Sunwalker is safer too.

25. (Novice Engineer) / Silent Knight/ Raging Worgan

Heartharena says silent Knight... I'm thinking this is probably my last chance at a 2 drop.

Novice Engineer isn't a 2-drop, it's a cycle card. I'd actually give preference to Raging Worgen, but Silent Knight is about as good.

29. (Questing Adventurer)/Flamewalker/Target Dummy

Heartharena says flamewalker due to all the spell synergy.

Flamewaker is really good. I'd have picked it.

[The_Jackal]

almost all classes have ways of removing a flood of 3 health minions

Really? This is news to me, because last I checked, the only classes with a non-combo AOE3 were Warlock and Mage. This must be some definition of 'all classes' with which I'm not yet familiar.

Some decks can do a lot of burst from hand (hello Malygos), but not 50+.

Doing 50 damage from hand is only a problem for Wallet Warrior, because 30 will do the trick for literally everyone else.

Back when Blizzard was still nerfing cards, they nerfed Miracle Rogue and they nerfed Buzzard + Unleash because they didn't think OTK combos were fun and they didn't think punishing someone for playing minions was fun either. Frothing Berserker violates both.

If that's true, the Sea Giant and Mind Control tech should also get nerfed, not to mention every sweeper spell in the game. I'd argue the justification behind the Buzzard and Auctioneer nerfs was the near-infinite single-turn draw potential they offered. By that logic, the card to nerf is battle rage, but that seems like a poor choice, given that, again, the card wasn't a problem before BRM.

Honestly, I think Patron is a fun deck that seems mostly balanced (except for heavy control decks), but it has a pretty good matchup percentage against all decks, with no clear weaknesses and can be frustrating to play against.

I've seen a lot of suggestions about what to nerf, with a lot of people targeting different pieces:

Emperor Thaurissan nerfs:

1) Stop him from reducing costs below 1: This already has precedence in cards like Summoning Portal. Would stop some of really big frothing turns by limiting the number of free whirlwind effects.

2) Make Thaurissan proc at the beginning of the turn: Frankly, this would kill the card and make it unplayable. I've rarely seen Thaurissan live past one turn and a 6 mana 5/5 is terrible.

Warsong Commander nerfs:

1) Limit the charge given to minions to 3 or below; if the creature goes above then charge is removed: I don't find this to be that overpowering since I do like the Inner Rage Patron getting charge and there are other cards like Raging Worgen that would be affected.

Frothing Berserker nerfs:

1) I think Trump was the one who suggested Frothing Berserkers get nerfed to 2/3 so that only 2 whirlwind effects can be used: I wonder how much this limits the "out of hand" OTKs with no board.
2) Berserkers only proc on friendly minions taking damage: I like this nerf quite a bit since it does fix the problem where enemies were scared to play minions because it'd add more damage to the berserkers.

Battle Rage nerfs:

1) Brian Kibler suggested that since Patron is a combo deck, attacking the insane card draw of Battle Rage might be the answer. He suggested that it only draw cards from damaged minions, excluding face damage. That makes it useless as just a plain cycle and lowers the card draw and thus time for the Patron Warrior to draw the requisite combo cards.

Another notion would be to nerf Patron such that it doesn't summon itself, but another 3/3 card, like Kodorider. You'd probably have to knock the cost down to a 4-drop, but that would limit the insane board spam that Patron can achieve.

[The_Jackal]

In other news, I got a kidnapper in a pack from my last Arena run (went 9/3, my best in quite a while). That's an auto-dust card, right? It sure seems like garbage.

[Zevox]

2.(Sooth spewer)/Grim Patron/Young Priestess

I was tempted to take Grim Patron. Not sure why it's ranked so low...

Because outside of a deck constructed around it, it's a bad card. A 3/3 for 5, or a 3/2 and 3/3 for 7 in Mage - both quite bad and very likely to die easily.

11.(Lost Tallstrider)/War Golem/Mad scientist

Feels like I missed the Mad scientist here... Heartharena say Last Tallstrider by a mile... then again it's pick 11.

You don't take Mad Scientist when you don't have good secrets.

17. (Ice Barrier)/Arcane Explosion/Ironforge Riftlemen

Hearthstone Arena actually says to pick Arcane explosion! I kinda loled.

Being brutally honest, your own pick is the laughable one. Ice Barrier is nigh useless in arena, as it does nothing for board control, which is what decides the game in that format. This was between Arcane Explosion and Ironforge Rifelman. Personally, I think I'd lean towards the Rifelman, just due to it being a body with an upside, even if both are weak for the cost, but there's an argument to be made for either.

23. (Lowly Squire)/Flamelance/Scarlet Crusader

Heartharena says Flamelance. I would have picked Crusader but I'm flooded with 3 drops

No matter how many 3 drops you had, Crusader would be a better pick than Lowly Squire. A 1/2 for 1 is poor, and a 2/2 for 3 if you hero power when you play it is hardly better. With your quantity of 3s, though, I would say take the Flamelance instead.

25. (Novice Engineer) / Silent Knight/ Raging Worgan

Heartharena says silent Knight... I'm thinking this is probably my last chance at a 2 drop.

Engineer was almost certainly the worst of the three. I can't be as certain of Silent Knight, since I haven't played arena since TGT dropped, but Raging Worgen is definitely far better than the Engineer, regardless of how many 3s you had.

29. (Questing Adventurer)/Flamewalker/Target Dummy

Heartharena says flamewalker due to all the spell synergy.

It's also just plain a more reliable, solid card than Questing Adventurer. So yeah, should've been the pick.

In other news, I got a kidnapper in a pack from my last Arena run (went 9/3, my best in quite a while). That's an auto-dust card, right? It sure seems like garbage.

Oh yeah, definitely.

[Gandariel]

Comments! comments everywhere!

Spoiler: My Mage Draft!

Show

(Mage)/Warrior/Hunter

2.(Sooth spewer)/Grim Patron/Young Priestess
I was tempted to take Grim Patron. Not sure why it's ranked so low...
Because it's bad if your whole deck isn't tailored around it

7.(Boneguard Liet)/Venture co Merc/Southsea Deckhand
I would have probably taken Venture Co. It's still pick 7, you can go with the best card

8.(Murkla's Champion)/Blackwing Corruptor/Arcane explosion
Heartharena say Blackwing Corruptor (by a bit) due to synergy with Draknoid Crusker, but even without the synergy the 5/4 body is better then the 4/3 body...I think I've made a mistake here.
Mukla's Champion is surprisingly good. The Corruptor is really, really good if you have the dragons, though. If you draft more dragons, Corruptor is better for sure. Otherwise Mukla's is better. It's a bet, and you chose the "safer" one. Not a mistake

11.(Lost Tallstrider)/War Golem/Mad scientist
Feels like I missed the Mad scientist here... Heartharena say Last Tallstrider by a mile... then again it's pick 11.
I'd take Scientist. 19 more picks, you have a good chance of finding a secret sooner or later. And mad scientist with a secret is pretty much broken.

17. (Ice Barrier)/Arcane Explosion/Ironforge Riftlemen
Hearthstone Arena actually says to pick Arcane explosion! I kinda loled.
Ice barrier was the worst of the lot. Both others are subpar but better than nothing. Ice barrier is a very, very weak card which doesn't do anything.

22. (Sorceress Apprentice)/Northsea Kraken/Argent Squire
Heartharena says release the Kraken! but I wanted the girl :(
The kraken *was* the best card. Did you need the 2s? i didn't check your curve

23. (Lowly Squire)/Flamelance/Scarlet Crusader
Heartharena says Flamelance. I would have picked Crusader but I'm flooded with 3 drops
Flamelance is OK removal, and scarlet crusader is premium 3. Maybe the curve tells you to avoid 3s, but i'd take Flamelance then.

25. (Novice Engineer) / Silent Knight/ Raging Worgan
Heartharena says silent Knight... I'm thinking this is probably my last chance at a 2 drop.
Novice isn't really a 2-drop. Either of the others was a better choice

29. (Questing Adventurer)/Flamewalker/Target Dummy
Heartharena says flamewalker due to all the spell synergy.
And Flamewaker is also the best card of the lot

This is also the best deck I've drafted mainly due to dumb luck (two flamestrike, Flame cannon, and a Frost bolt) but it's also strange since I got so many three drops. We'll see if my luck continues.

Flamecannon and Frostbolt aren't really the game-winning cards in a deck (more like Fireball and Water Elemental), but yeah, there are few "bad" cards there.

[Frog Dragon]

It has been several months since I last accomplished this. Last time was march I think.

Spoiler: The dream is real!

Show

[MCerberus]

I just starting poking my head back in to Hearthstone and it's making me really mad, since I keep being punked by cards that didn't exist when I played and couldn't possibly have.

The adventure cards are bad enough, since 750 gold is roughly 2 weeks worth of income for one wing.
Then I see the Shaman cards and just breath in the power creep.

About the only success I've been having is with my priest suddenly buffing minions to 30/30 (side note: it was heartening though, to note that owls are still the bane of everyone's existence)

[Gandariel]

Well, most "power creep OP op" cards are commons, so crafting them is not really a big deal.

Also, apparently Shaman is still bad (despite Tuskarr totemic and Totem Golem)

And frankly, this expansion did not bring much (if any) power creep. Most decks are still viable, with a few optional changes.

new decks have arisen, but they're not really more powerful than the "old" ones

[The_Jackal]

It has been several months since I last accomplished this. Last time was march I think.

Spoiler: The dream is real!

Show

Wow, that's brutal. If it makes you feel any better, I've done that a couple times too. Sometimes your draft and your mulligan conspire to kill you dead.

[Surrealistik]

I just starting poking my head back in to Hearthstone and it's making me really mad, since I keep being punked by cards that didn't exist when I played and couldn't possibly have.

The adventure cards are bad enough, since 750 gold is roughly 2 weeks worth of income for one wing.
Then I see the Shaman cards and just breath in the power creep.

About the only success I've been having is with my priest suddenly buffing minions to 30/30 (side note: it was heartening though, to note that owls are still the bane of everyone's existence)

As a new player, I totally hear you on the adventure wing cards; aside from maybe Patron (okay, and Secrets Paladin too; these still cost a decent amount of dust though, so you won't be getting em for awhile; they require adventure cards too!), the only way to run a cheap good deck is via aggro, and that all but demands Haunted Creepers if you don't want to be at a disadvantage; unlocking these via F2P for essential cards is kind of excruciating.

[MCerberus]

Well, most "power creep OP op" cards are commons, so crafting them is not really a big deal.

Also, apparently Shaman is still bad (despite Tuskarr totemic and Totem Golem)

And frankly, this expansion did not bring much (if any) power creep. Most decks are still viable, with a few optional changes.

new decks have arisen, but they're not really more powerful than the "old" ones

The problem being that being behind the meta reduces win rates and thus income potential, reducing the ability to get new cards. And then there's the sort of problem like having a Hunter deck built around beast sacking having the key cards nerfed.

[Joran]

Really? This is news to me, because last I checked, the only classes with a non-combo AOE3 were Warlock and Mage. This must be some definition of 'all classes' with which I'm not yet familiar.

Why are you limiting excluding combo sweeps? They're pretty common among meta decks and the opponent needs to combo cards to get multiple patrons anyway.

The ones I can think of are:

1) Rogue: Blade Flurry, +2 Spell Power + Fan of Knives (unlikely)
2) Mage: Flamestrike, Frost Nova + Doomsayer, Spell Power + Blizzard (less likely)
3) Priest: Lightbomb, Spell Power + Holy Nova (less likely)
4) Warrior: Brawl
5) Paladin: Equality + Consecrate
6) Warlock: Hellfire, Shadowflame + a minion
7) Shaman: Spell Power + Lightning Storm or Just Pray to RNGesus

Druid and Hunter are the only classes without a way of dealing with a board of 3 hp minions with current meta decks.

Doing 50 damage from hand is only a problem for Wallet Warrior, because 30 will do the trick for literally everyone else.

True and there are combo decks that can do a lot of damage in a turn. I am amused by the "He was behind massive taunts with 20+ health and still died" posts that populated reddit a lot.

If that's true, the Sea Giant and Mind Control tech should also get nerfed, not to mention every sweeper spell in the game. I'd argue the justification behind the Buzzard and Auctioneer nerfs was the near-infinite single-turn draw potential they offered. By that logic, the card to nerf is battle rage, but that seems like a poor choice, given that, again, the card wasn't a problem before BRM.

I hate Mind Control Tech with a fire that burns, especially in arena when you can't make an informed guess if you're playing against a deck with it.

Also, Patron allows pretty disgusting turns with battle rage where you create a flood of patrons and then draw to refill your hand; Thaurissan also helps. It makes Battle Rage a little more consistent than it was in Math Warrior.

I just starting poking my head back in to Hearthstone and it's making me really mad, since I keep being punked by cards that didn't exist when I played and couldn't possibly have.

The adventure cards are bad enough, since 750 gold is roughly 2 weeks worth of income for one wing.
Then I see the Shaman cards and just breath in the power creep.

About the only success I've been having is with my priest suddenly buffing minions to 30/30 (side note: it was heartening though, to note that owls are still the bane of everyone's existence)

Did you play before BRM? I can see that being an issue but TGT hasn't introduced much outside of Secret Paladin. Totem Shaman doesn't work well since it loses to Paladin pretty hard, which is very popular now.

I've been trying to make a Patron Warrior variant with Axe Flinger and Wild Pyro, and been failing miserably. Either I don't know my business, or creating a wacky deck that is also viable is no small feat. Or both.

You may want to take a gander at this video. Purple had a similar idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqFf...ature=youtu.be

[Cespenar]

So, Tavern Brawl. Everyone's playing Hunters and Shaman. Me? No, sirree, of course not!

I play Poor Man's Mysterious Challenger.

Which basically means Paladin + all the secrets + Mad Scientist + Brewmaster minus Mysterious Challenger of course because I'm a scrub.

So far: four wins in a row, with two of them being concedes after they see 4 secrets on my face. Not a vast data pool, but man, fun times. The brewmasters work perfectly with those Owls as well as any silenced stuff.

[Chen]

The problem being that being behind the meta reduces win rates and thus income potential, reducing the ability to get new cards. And then there's the sort of problem like having a Hunter deck built around beast sacking having the key cards nerfed.

I'd suggest taking a look at Trump's basic decks. Very straight forward decks and still fairly strong. He's doing a free to play run right now. Not sure how far he's gotten so far. Someone tried another free to play run a little while back and made it to rank 4 I think in the month they gave themselves (granted probably a ton of time since they were a professional streamer). The key to playing free to play and reaching high ranks is basically getting good at arena. Otherwise your gold income is feebly low.

[otakuryoga]

i am doing quite well in brawl with Priest
12-1 so far
deck has 6 individual silences and 2 mass silence
all the sticky mechs of course
and multiple ways to use his cards against him

only loss was to a shaman beyond gawd draw
turn 3 he coins out a piloted shredder with no silence in my hand
turn 4 he attacks..ancestrals it(deathrattle:respawn this minion when it dies) and then reincarnates it..now i am looking at 2 spawns from it(dont remember what..not like it mattered) and 3 more shredders.............
yeah...game over

Druid and Hunter are the only classes without a way of dealing with a board of 3 hp minions with current meta decks.

hunter only..druid has "destroy all minions and replace em with treants" and/or spellpower + starfall

[Corlindale]

Priest is really nice in this brawl. Stealing deathrattles with Shadow Madness was always one of my favourite things in Priest, now it's twice as fun!

The funniest moment in the brawl so far was when my Shredder dropped two explosive sheep. That's basically Twisting Nether in this format

[The_Jackal]

I'd suggest taking a look at Trump's basic decks. Very straight forward decks and still fairly strong. He's doing a free to play run right now. Not sure how far he's gotten so far. Someone tried another free to play run a little while back and made it to rank 4 I think in the month they gave themselves (granted probably a ton of time since they were a professional streamer). The key to playing free to play and reaching high ranks is basically getting good at arena. Otherwise your gold income is feebly low.

Also, you don't need to rank high to start chipping away at that card deficit, you just need to earn enough gold to get into the Arena and do moderately well in Arena. Once you're in Arena, the quality of your collection and the amount you've spent on cards doesn't matter.

Now I've gone on record saying that I think free to play games are inherently bad, since they effectively trade drudgery for fun to drive you towards paying the publisher. In the case of Hearthstone, the drudgery part is the frequent curbstompings free-tier players will experience at the hands of better-equipped players while they build their collection. But compared to some of the F2P garbage shenanigans I've seen in the marketplace, it's pretty innocuous.

[Anarion]

It has been several months since I last accomplished this. Last time was march I think.

Spoiler: The dream is real!

Show

Ouch, your deck doesn't even look that bad. Bad luck runs rampant, I suppose.

I just starting poking my head back in to Hearthstone and it's making me really mad, since I keep being punked by cards that didn't exist when I played and couldn't possibly have.

The adventure cards are bad enough, since 750 gold is roughly 2 weeks worth of income for one wing.
Then I see the Shaman cards and just breath in the power creep.

About the only success I've been having is with my priest suddenly buffing minions to 30/30 (side note: it was heartening though, to note that owls are still the bane of everyone's existence)

Well, most "power creep OP op" cards are commons, so crafting them is not really a big deal.

Also, apparently Shaman is still bad (despite Tuskarr totemic and Totem Golem)

And frankly, this expansion did not bring much (if any) power creep. Most decks are still viable, with a few optional changes.

new decks have arisen, but they're not really more powerful than the "old" ones

For what it's worth, I think that full on adventures are a good way to actually spend money to support the game. Buying cards pack after card pack in the hopes of chasing after some elusive legendary is a big money sink, but the expansions come out very rarely (there are all of 2 so far) and for $20 you get a fun experience, some strong new cards, and a bit of humor. Considering the time I've put in and enjoyed so far, I'm glad to give the game some support through that channel without breaking bank elsewhere.

[Chen]

For what it's worth, I think that full on adventures are a good way to actually spend money to support the game. Buying cards pack after card pack in the hopes of chasing after some elusive legendary is a big money sink, but the expansions come out very rarely (there are all of 2 so far) and for $20 you get a fun experience, some strong new cards, and a bit of humor. Considering the time I've put in and enjoyed so far, I'm glad to give the game some support through that channel without breaking bank elsewhere.

I definitely agree with this. The adventures are fun in and of themselves. It's also not gambling on packs, you get fixed cards. They're also more efficient when comparing real money to gold value than packs are. Buying the adventures with real money and then packs with gold, will net you more packs than doing the opposite (assuming the same amount of gold and real money spent in both cases).

[ShinyRocks]

I think Blizzard are going to have to do something about how hard it is for new players to catch up, sooner or later. It's still not toooo bad, but once another expansion comes out, that's more than 10,000 gold on wings. Now obviously you *can* build a collection for free, and obviously you *can* do well with a basic deck. But people point to stuff like Trump hitting Legend with a F2P deck, forgetting that most players, and certainly most new players, aren't going to be as good or well informed about how to play the game as Trump is.

I don't think Hearthstone is pay to win. You can't buy specific cards (outside adventures, which everyone gets at the same time and opportunity and cost). If you could - pay £3, get Ragnaros, or whatever, it would be pay to win, utterly unfair, and I would most likely stop playing. It's 'pay to avoid grind', which is fine, and obviously Blizzard has to make money; they didn't make Hearthstone out of the kindness of their hearts.

It's all well and good to say people need to learn the game and persist. And certainly new players make horrible decisions all the time, decisions that lose them the game. But even if only half your potential playerbase try a game, lose horribly, and then blame it on their lack of cards and never come back, that's not good. I mean, I don't think those players are *right* to think that, but as the amount of cards they don't have gets larger and larger and larger, it'll be harder to persuade them that you can go pretty far with high skill and basic cards.

Also, it's not even necessarily about winning. I'm a total Johnny - I like making decks with stupid gimmicks and seeing if they work. I don't care if I win a lot, because when I do and it all comes together, that's the fun part. But I still need a big card collection to make the interesting decks I want to.

It's not a physical card game. They don't seem likely to retire any cards, or start new seasons with whole new archetypes. I don't think we're far off the card deficit that new players start with being unsurmountable - beating it will take too much effort for what's supposed to be a fun, silly, throwaway game for most people who play it.

[Surrealistik]

I considered the F2P Trump deck, but I'm not so sure it can stand up to the current meta/players at the higher ranks, and I believe he effectively admitted that things have gotten significantly more competitive since he fielded it.

That said, you _can_ make a cheap and competitive Patron/Midrange Hunter/Secrets Paladin deck, even if it does require saving up to buy an expac wing or three which absolutely should stand up to the meta, and allow you to achieve a respectable rank. However, what you're saying is fundamentally correct; if things continue as they are they're certainly going to reach the point where a casual player will absolutely get chewed up and spit out by this game. In fact, we might be there presently, or by the next adventure release; quite a few friends of mine who have burnt out on Hearthstone and warned me about the game have said as much.

As for P2W, obviously there is an element of that in that you have an avenue of paying for power, while disenchanting/crafting allows you to translate money into precisely the cards you want. Currently it's not to the point where, as a new player, I feel things are hopeless unless I commit money to the game (I've been quite successful outside of top ten netdecks vs ****ty common/basic decks I'm stuck with for questing), but I'm not going to lie, it is discouraging to get my ass beat by blatantly superior cards with a particularly high F2P barrier like the adventure sets; something which comes up with reasonable frequency during aggro vs aggro games (Haunted Crawler/Nerubian Egg/Loatheb).

[Lethologica]

Mech Mage is probably the cheapest competitive deck for F2P since you can eschew adventure cards.

That said, F2P really pushes towards just playing Arena, where neither money nor experience break card parity. (RNG, on the other hand...but hey, you signed up for a card game, it's only natural.)