Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

[Nifft]

Yeah it's arguable that you can get Bard spellcasting from Green Whisperer with no levels of Bard, but it's a bad deal since you never get music or Bardic Knowledge, and thus alone GW won't be sufficient to jump-start you into Fochlucan Lyrist.

But one level of Bard is very cheap if you trade away Wild Shape, so do that and take 4 (or fewer) levels of Druid.

Note that one level of Bard also gets you Perform as a class skill, which you need to enter Green Whisperer in the first place. Sure you could pay feats to get that skill, but you're already spending up to two feats for Evasion.

[Troacctid]

It works great with Fochlucan lyricist because lyricist requires you to have a bard level even if whisperer doesn't, and at that point whisperer is just highly efficient.

Swift Avenger should be in there. Either it's good, in which case people will want to know about it; it's bad, in we case it's a trap option that people should be warned away from; or it's value-neutral, in which case people should be aware of the option.

I think Scout 1 + Swift Avenger is ultimately worse than Rogue 1 + Craven on that type of build, but it's also clearly better than scout alone, so it's in one of those weird places where class combos often end up where the weaker class in the combo is getting a huge buff while the stronger class is slumming it, so from one perspective it's the most powerful thing you can possibly do, and from the other perspective it's a self-nerf.

[Nifft]

I think Scout 1 + Swift Avenger is ultimately worse than Rogue 1 + Craven on that type of build, but it's also clearly better than scout alone, so it's in one of those weird places where class combos often end up where the weaker class in the combo is getting a huge buff while the stronger class is slumming it, so from one perspective it's the most powerful thing you can possibly do, and from the other perspective it's a self-nerf.

Skirmish is a lot easier to trigger, especially for a Druid with access to Pounce.

For one lost caster level and two feats (assuming Improved Skirmish gets picked up for the extra +2d6 damage) you get a very nice transition character for a player who is trying to learn how to Druid. For someone who is bad at judging the power of Druid spells -- and let's be honest, Druid spells are not easy for a n00b -- having a decently strong and very simple melee fallback plan is a win.

Finally, there are ways for a Druid to pick up Favored Enemy for access to Swift Hunter (and thus apply Skirmish damage to undead or constructs)... but that's more of a commitment, and I'm not sure it's worth the bother.

I'd suggest a write-up from the angle of playing a specialist Druid (melee pounce), or playing a Druid who is compatible with the playstyle of a recovering Barbarian.

[ExLibrisMortis]

a Druid who is compatible with the playstyle of a recovering Barbarian.

I am, incidentally, a big fan of this concept, and would be interested in reading about it. Druidic avenger variant + swift and deadly hunter variant + Swift Hunter + Swift Avenger... sensing a theme here .

[Troacctid]

Oh hey, that's right, if you do the favored enemy variant, you can take Swift Hunter too to bypass precision immunities. That's cool. Feels kinda awkward to give up wild shape for it though, since wild shaping into a pouncer is a big enabler for skirmish.

[Nifft]

I am, incidentally, a big fan of this concept, and would be interested in reading about it. Druidic avenger variant + swift and deadly hunter variant + Swift Hunter + Swift Avenger... sensing a theme here .

Yeah you could definitely also do that. If you've got a permissive DM, you could chain-ACF for Lion Totem Pounce by trading away your Barbarian speed bonus at level 1, and chain-ACF for Whirling Frenzy at the same time. Then you've got a reason to Pounce in addition to having bonus Skirmish on Charge, plus Druid spells and some Druid features.

It's not as strong as Wild Shape, but it's probably serviceable.

Oh hey, that's right, if you do the favored enemy variant, you can take Swift Hunter too to bypass precision immunities. That's cool. Feels kinda awkward to give up wild shape for it though, since wild shaping into a pouncer is a big enabler for skirmish.

Yeah I personally prefer Skirmish + Wild Shape (form with Pounce).

Even without Swift Hunter, it's my experience that Skirmish is a lot more reliable than Sneak Attack -- and when it's not reliable, you turn into something without Pounce, or you use your spells. Unlike a martial character, Pounce + Skirmish is something you can build for and use to good effect -- yet it's not your whole plan.

[eggynack]

Added a write up for swift hunter. It's pretty straightforwardly negative, as, in spite of plausible coolness levels, I can't see much justification for the idea that losing a druid level and a feat for some skirmish bonus constitutes anything but a net loss.

[danielxcutter]

Probably not worth mentioning, but Lion's Pounce is on the Druid spell list, so that certainly helps with Swift Hunter... Oh yeah, and if you've got a free 9th-level slot to spare it can be Persisted.

[ezekielraiden]

Probably not worth mentioning, but Lion's Pounce is on the Druid spell list, so that certainly helps with Swift Hunter... Oh yeah, and if you've got a free 9th-level slot to spare it can be Persisted.

Ironically, lion's charge was made explicitly persist-able in 3.5, as they made it a Personal spell, and those can be shared with your animal companion.

[danielxcutter]

Ironically, lion's charge was made explicitly persist-able in 3.5, as they made it a Personal spell, and those can be shared with your animal companion.

Why is that "ironic"? Either way, still worth noting I guess?

[ezekielraiden]

Why is that "ironic"? Either way, still worth noting I guess?

Generally, one would expect that changing spells (such as haste) in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5 would nerf them, but this got buffed--a lot. Even with the switch from persistent spell being +4 to +6 spell level.

[eggynack]

Not sure there's all that much point to it. Pounce forms are pretty sweet anyway. More importantly, I inexplicably thought it was swift avenger in both the handbook and the post about the edit. I guess I was combining it with druidic avenger? Either way, it's not that now.

Edit: Oh, I was right. Swift hunter is the Complete Scoundrel feat that stacks ranger and scout.

[danielxcutter]

Not sure there's all that much point to it. Pounce forms are pretty sweet anyway. More importantly, I inexplicably thought it was swift avenger in both the handbook and the post about the edit. I guess I was combining it with druidic avenger? Either way, it's not that now.

Edit: Oh, I was right. Swift hunter is the Complete Scoundrel feat that stacks ranger and scout.

Sure, forms that already come with Pounce are fine and dandy, but Lion's Charge lets you Pounce without being in a Pounce-included shape. Last I checked, giant octopi don't have Pounce...

[radthemad4]

An alternative way to get pounce is Druidic Avenger and the Snow Tiger Berserker feat (Unapproachable East, p. 45) as Natural Weapons are light weapons. The downside of that is losing the Animal Companion and Spontaneous Summons.

[eggynack]

Sure, forms that already come with Pounce are fine and dandy, but Lion's Charge lets you Pounce without being in a Pounce-included shape. Last I checked, giant octopi don't have Pounce...

I guess. I'm just saying the spell comes across as an especially expensive maneuver when these alternatives exist. If this were the only way to get pounce (or the easiest way to get pounce), then it'd be a lot more interesting.

[Endarire]

How did you derive the cost of the Prayer Bead of Karma?

What are your thoughts on the rest of the Raiment of the Four? Spontaneous fireball and freedom of movement can be handy.

[eggynack]

How did you derive the cost of the Prayer Bead of Karma?

It's implied by "Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: ...bead of karma -20,000 gp"

What are your thoughts on the rest of the Raiment of the Four? Spontaneous fireball and freedom of movement can be handy.

Periapt seems very bad, given that heart of water is right there. Goggles are a bit less bad, cause druids don't have a fireball equivalent precisely, but it's not like fireballs are better than the spells you start out with, and spontaneous SNA III is probably better in combat anyway. Magic missile is also pretty meh overall.

[Hiro Quester]

An alternative way to get pounce is Druidic Avenger and the Snow Tiger Berserker feat (Unapproachable East, p. 45) as Natural Weapons are light weapons. The downside of that is losing the Animal Companion and Spontaneous Summons.

Another way to get pounce in all wildshape forms is to take the Lion of Talisid PrC. It loses two levels of wildshape progression, but advances everything else, and gains pounce in all forms, scent in all forms, fear immunity, an exalted companion, a free action haste-self ability, and a few other goodies.

Compared to straight Druid, losing the two levels of wildshape progression hurts a little. But overall, it's a decent trade.

[Endarire]

Udoroot: Instead of "to" manifestations per turn, I think you meant "2."

Tendriculos: This Huge Plant form normally requires Wild Shape level 15, but eating and paralyzing foes in your gullet while you digest them seems interesting, if niche at this level. Regeneration 10 is also handy if you simply want to regen body parts and HP without spell slots.

[eggynack]

Udoroot: Instead of "to" manifestations per turn, I think you meant "2."

True.

Tendriculos: This Huge Plant form normally requires Wild Shape level 15, but eating and paralyzing foes in your gullet while you digest them seems interesting, if niche at this level. Regeneration 10 is also handy if you simply want to regen body parts and HP without spell slots.

Regen shows up a lot on plants, so paralysis would be the necessary basis. The swallowing thing is neat, given how long the paralysis lasts, but its grappling capacity is only just alright in general. Compare to something like the octopus tree. Eight separate grappling attacks with a significantly higher to-hit and grapple mod, the same quantity of regeneration, way higher AC, and even acid immunity. You still get swallow whole too, albeit somewhat weaker. There're a couple disadvantages, but the trade off seems pretty slanted.

[danielxcutter]

I'm fairly sure psionic powers fall under spell-like abilities, not psi-like abilities(which are also SLAs, but different from psionic powers in the way spells and SLAs are), so Udoroots still don't do all that much for a gestalt manifester/druid. Could be wrong, of course, but I think that's how it works. Hmm... you don't keep your racial SLAs/PLAs when you use Wild Shape, right?

So Lion's Charge isn't worth mentioning, in your opinion? I don't think it's bad, if you're not in a form with Pounce(or you're Shapechanged or something) and you currently have more than one natural attack. And it's eventually Persistable at high levels(Shapechange into dragon + Persisted Lion's Charge = o u c h).

[eggynack]

I'm fairly sure psionic powers fall under spell-like abilities, not psi-like abilities(which are also SLAs, but different from psionic powers in the way spells and SLAs are), so Udoroots still don't do all that much for a gestalt manifester/druid.

"The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability."

Hmm... you don't keep your racial SLAs/PLAs when you use Wild Shape, right?

It doesn't look like there's any exception for those abilities that would cause you to not get them.

So Lion's Charge isn't worth mentioning, in your opinion? I don't think it's bad, if you're not in a form with Pounce(or you're Shapechanged or something) and you currently have more than one natural attack. And it's eventually Persistable at high levels(Shapechange into dragon + Persisted Lion's Charge = o u c h).

It's pretty expensive. Third level spell for a single round of more hits. Persisting it is ludicrously expensive for what you're getting. I dunno. It's not the worst, I suppose, so I might wind up putting it in, but I still can't help but think you'd be better off just using a pounce form if you need it so that you just have the pounce.

[danielxcutter]

"The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability."

Ah, my bad then. Got it.

It doesn't look like there's any exception for those abilities that would cause you to not get them.

Well, a lot of psionic races have racial PLAs, though most don't really make great Druids anyways.

It's pretty expensive. Third level spell for a single round of more hits. Persisting it is ludicrously expensive for what you're getting. I dunno. It's not the worst, I suppose, so I might wind up putting it in, but I still can't help but think you'd be better off just using a pounce form if you need it so that you just have the pounce.

Eh, fair.

[jmax]

Another way to get pounce in all wildshape forms is to take the Lion of Talisid PrC. It loses two levels of wildshape progression, but advances everything else, and gains pounce in all forms, scent in all forms, fear immunity, an exalted companion, a free action haste-self ability, and a few other goodies.

Compared to straight Druid, losing the two levels of wildshape progression hurts a little. But overall, it's a decent trade.

If you're starting at 17th level or higher - specifically after you get shapechange and would have Huge Wild Shape forms even after the lost levels from the PrC - this is actually a pretty solid deal (aside from the feat tax, since Favored of the Companions is almost worse than useless*). The rest of the class features are pretty solid, too. The big benefit here is that Lion's Pounce isn't tied to Wild Shape, so shapechange benefits as well.

EDIT: And since you can stop at 5 levels of Lion of Talisid and still get the free pounce, you could even keep Thousand Faces and Timeless Body as well. They aren't mechanically awesome - sticking with Lion of Talisid to get Lion's Swiftness and Leonal's Roar is probably superior - but it's nice to have the option. Timeless Body has cool flavor, and Thousand Faces is just fun.

If you're starting earlier than that, it's still solid, but the lost Wild Shape levels hurt more.


*Any 1/day small adjustment to a single check is basically worthless unless you're the type who will actually remember to use it. Even then it's added complexity with basically no benefit.

Regen shows up a lot on plants, so paralysis would be the necessary basis. The swallowing thing is neat, given how long the paralysis lasts, but its grappling capacity is only just alright in general. Compare to something like the octopus tree. Eight separate grappling attacks with a significantly higher to-hit and grapple mod, the same quantity of regeneration, way higher AC, and even acid immunity. You still get swallow whole too, albeit somewhat weaker. There're a couple disadvantages, but the trade off seems pretty slanted.

You could grapple and swallow as an octopus tree and then change shape to tendriculos. Works better with shapechange because it's a free action and doesn't eat resources (assuming you already have shapechange up), and there are some other fantastic options with the same trick, but it's a solid way to take advantage of the better Swallow options when the lead-up isn't as awesome.

[eggynack]

You could grapple and swallow as an octopus tree and then change shape to tendriculos. Works better with shapechange because it's a free action and doesn't eat resources (assuming you already have shapechange up), and there are some other fantastic options with the same trick, but it's a solid way to take advantage of the better Swallow options when the lead-up isn't as awesome.

That's some ridiculously situational nonsense right there. Kinda like it. It sounds like it shouldn't work, but I don't currently have any basis for thinking it wouldn't.

[heavyfuel]

Can we discuss the black rating that "Plant Growth" got?

It's - as you yourself put it - basically like Solid Fog, a very powerful Wizard spell.

However, unlike Solid Fog, this is available 2 levels earlier and has duration of instantaneous. It's a permanent, undispellable, perfectly aimable Solid Fog with better range and immunity to Gust of Wind.

Sure, it can't be used everywhere, but neither can Entangle, and that spell got a blue rating, even if it's explicitly subject to DM purview.

Anyway, I think you should reconsider it. Mini-rant over.

[jmax]

That's some ridiculously situational nonsense right there. Kinda like it. It sounds like it shouldn't work, but I don't currently have any basis for thinking it wouldn't.

It's no more situational than any other use of Swallow Hole - just more involved. As far as rules, there's nothing anywhere indicating you lose the contents of your stomach when you change or that they end up elsewhere in your body. Certainly said contents don't cease to exist. As long as the new form is sufficiently large to hold what you swallowed, it should be fine. Anything with Swallow Whole explicitly listing that creature size is explicitly safe.

Now the time my druid swallowed a nasty mage as a garngrath, Swift Wild Shaped into an earth elemental to prevent getting yanked back to Medium size when the swallowed mage then cast (Pathfinder) disjunction (yay foresight!)? That required some interpretation and rules expansion. We decided that the elemental's lack of discernible anatomy meant that I didn't experience any significant adverse effects, the mage was crushed into oblivion instantly, and my subsequent re-shapechange (new cast) into a Prismatic Golem (which is incorporeal) caused the mage's remains to fall through to the ground, resulting in something vaguely resembling a massive diamond refracting the golem's prismatic daylight emanation. Certainly there's nothing in the rules supporting any of that, but it was awesome enough that the DM ran with it.

But yes, the resource and action cost doing it with just Wild Shape rather than shapechange makes it too expensive to do often.


EDIT:

Can we discuss the black rating that "Plant Growth" got?

It's - as you yourself put it - basically like Solid Fog, a very powerful Wizard spell.

However, unlike Solid Fog, this is available 2 levels earlier and has duration of instantaneous. It's a permanent, undispellable, perfectly aimable Solid Fog with better range and immunity to Gust of Wind.

Sure, it can't be used everywhere, but neither can Entangle, and that spell got a blue rating, even if it's explicitly subject to DM purview.

Anyway, I think you should reconsider it. Mini-rant over.

I imagine the difference is that entangle is implicitly situational, whereas plant growth is explicitly situational. Entangle doesn't actually state that there must be surrounding vegetation of any kind - it's just a very reasonable interpretation. In contrast, plant growth absolutely requires both brush and trees, meaning it basically only works in forest terrain.

If you know you're going to be fighting in a forest, plant growth is hell on wheels. But if you aren't, it's completely worthless for combat.

[Unavenger]

So, in your guide you mention that Riding Dogs can trip as wolves do, but this seems only to be the case if they are trained for war, which they usually aren't (you don't get war horses or war ponies, so I don't see why you assume that you get war dogs); obviously you can spend two months on warbeast but this is rarely available at the low levels that favour the riding dog (or indeed at all, given most DMs I've seen). Apologies if I've missed a clarification on this, but that seems to throw obvious holes in your assertion that it's strictly better than wolf?

EDIT: I also can't see any evidence that the climbdog is a viable companion; the closest I can see is a sidebar contrasting pets like the climbdog with animal companions.

[Doxkid]

Can we discuss the black rating that "Plant Growth" got?

It's - as you yourself put it - basically like Solid Fog, a very powerful Wizard spell.

However, unlike Solid Fog, this is available 2 levels earlier and has duration of instantaneous. It's a permanent, undispellable, perfectly aimable Solid Fog with better range and immunity to Gust of Wind.

Sure, it can't be used everywhere, but neither can Entangle, and that spell got a blue rating, even if it's explicitly subject to DM purview.

Anyway, I think you should reconsider it. Mini-rant over.

I imagine the difference is that entangle is implicitly situational, whereas plant growth is explicitly situational. Entangle doesn't actually state that there must be surrounding vegetation of any kind - it's just a very reasonable interpretation. In contrast, plant growth absolutely requires both brush and trees, meaning it basically only works in forest terrain.

If you know you're going to be fighting in a forest, plant growth is hell on wheels. But if you aren't, it's completely worthless for combat.

The spell does not state how much plant material must be used as a base. Nor does it state that the plant must currently be alive, that the plant must be fully matured, that the plant needs to be native to the environment, or that the plant needs to be able to survive in the environment.

As such there is little reason you cannot simply go the route of the Sand Shaper and carry a Bonsai, a Vine that you wear like a bracelet, and a handful of seeds to get the full effects of this spell. Most druids should already have these things to help restore flora in areas damaged by fires/magic/necromancy. If not that, then they should have these things incidentally from gathering ingredients for simple salves/remedies.

[eggynack]

It's no more situational than any other use of Swallow Hole - just more involved.

Any plan that starts with you having swallowing someone whole is somewhat situational. Especially given that you have to think spending resources to increase the efficacy of the swallowing is worth it.

So, in your guide you mention that Riding Dogs can trip as wolves do, but this seems only to be the case if they are trained for war, which they usually aren't (you don't get war horses or war ponies, so I don't see why you assume that you get war dogs);

It's not 100% clear, but it looks like the way you get a riding dog trained for war is by training them in combat riding. Whatever mechanism there is, it certainly can't involve other sources (as warbeast does) or involve other creatures (as warhorses do). The basis for trip seems like it must be some function of handle animal, and combat riding, given that it's both directly associated with warhorses (and riding dogs) and somewhat associated with what you'd want for war, seems like the best bet.

EDIT: I also can't see any evidence that the climbdog is a viable companion; the closest I can see is a sidebar contrasting pets like the climbdog with animal companions.

There's a sidebar in the PHB II, page 41, that gives a lot of animal companion permissions, including this one.

The spell does not state how much plant material must be used as a base. Nor does it state that the plant must currently be alive, that the plant must be fully matured, that the plant needs to be native to the environment, or that the plant needs to be able to survive in the environment.

As such there is little reason you cannot simply go the route of the Sand Shaper and carry a Bonsai, a Vine that you wear like a bracelet, and a handful of seeds to get the full effects of this spell. Most druids should already have these things to help restore flora in areas damaged by fires/magic/necromancy. If not that, then they should have these things incidentally from gathering ingredients for simple salves/remedies.

I hadn't considered using a mini-tree as the tree basis. That's somewhat interesting. I'm not sure that a vine would qualify as brush though. I wouldn't point at that and be like, "How about that brush." Still, plant growth does seem somewhat tighter than entangle in this regard. Entangle just straight up has the plants in the area entangle the creatures in the area. The whole thing is a spell effect that operates with regard to those creatures. Plant growth, by contrast, doesn't seem to care about what creatures are there, in a sense. It's fixated on the plants in the area, causing them to become entwined with themselves and such. Without a specific command that every creature in the area be affected, the usual skepticism regarding entangle's ability to do this becomes stronger.

The upgrade seems plausible, especially because rigging the spell to only need plant life instead of full on trees is a cool maneuver, but I'm not entirely convinced that this spell can be thrown out in a cave or whatever. I am somewhat convinced, by contrast, that entangle can be thrown out in a cave.