Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

[Kalkra]

You might want to include Mulhorandi Divine Minion. Even if you're not using it for early entry into MoMF, and even if you say that it doesn't give you 11 free levels of wild shape progression, it should still work with the alternative wild shape feats.

[eggynack]

You might want to include Mulhorandi Divine Minion. Even if you're not using it for early entry into MoMF, and even if you say that it doesn't give you 11 free levels of wild shape progression, it should still work with the alternative wild shape feats.

Wouldn't that generally be instead of druid, rather than in concert with it? Doesn't seem to stack. It's kinda the inverse of the handbook's deal; it's a thing that can use druid stuff, rather than a thing that druids can use. Maybe it's interesting on that basis? Strikes me as a weird inclusion.

[Troacctid]

Well, you can trade away your wild shape for something else that way. And if you're adding new forms anyway, why not shift forms as a free action at will? It even saves a feat on Natural Spell!

[eggynack]

Well, you can trade away your wild shape for something else that way. And if you're adding new forms anyway, why not shift forms as a free action at will? It even saves a feat on Natural Spell!

Big problem there is that I don't think there's a single thing in the entire game particularly worth trading away wild shape for. I don't just mean because wild shape is so good, though that's usually the context that's meant in, but because the things you're getting tend to be so ludicrously bad.

[Troacctid]

Plenty of prestige classes give up wild shape progression. A normal druid is likely to actively avoid prestiging, outside of a small handful of druid-specific prestige classes, for want of wild shape advancement. Mulhorandi Divine Minions can take whatever prestige classes they like and it's no big deal. Plus, their wild shape is better. Free action!

[eggynack]

Plenty of prestige classes give up wild shape progression. A normal druid is likely to actively avoid prestiging, outside of a small handful of druid-specific prestige classes, for want of wild shape advancement. Mulhorandi Divine Minions can take whatever prestige classes they like and it's no big deal. Plus, their wild shape is better. Free action!

I think the case against prestige classing premised on the wild shape loss has been a bit overstated. There aren't that many plans that are both super good and ditch a lot of wild shape. Also, I think we're out of the druid realm at this point. Anyone can take divine minion, pick up aberration wild shape, and then use some prestige class that doesn't advance wild shape. Druid prestige classes are fine, but I dunno that they're generally better than non-druid prestige classes, y'know?

[Kalkra]

I was thinking unlimited uses and duration would be useful in the early levels, even though it's limited in what forms you can take at that point. You could also use it to fuel the wild feats, I suppose. Most still stink, but a few might be nice. I'm thinking Venom's Gift and Eagle's Wings on a Darktentacles, or something else with a ton of natural attacks and poor movement. As a side note, it fits thematically with the exalted build, and I think that Vow of Poverty lets you get Exalted Wild Shape without meeting the prereqs, meaning you could be doing it at level 1 or 2. That also means unlimited free action teleports with a blink dog, and craziness with Assume Supernatural Ability and chokers or, dare I mention it, beholders. Not that Assume Supernatural Ability needed any help breaking the game. Also, it's hard to die when you can replenish your hitpoints as a free action. I realize that most of this is stuff that you could do without being a druid, but if you're already a druid, you may as well just add divine minion.

All of this is assuming that you DM doesn't rule that you can stack your divine minion fast wild shape with your normal druid wild shape, increasing the HD cap of your forms by 11, in which case divine minion would kinda be obligatory.

[liquidformat]

Thanks for making this eggynack I am just diving in but already find it to be awesome! Druids are my favorite class and there is an amazing amount of good stuff here!

On a side note, it should be mentioned that Swindlespitter Dinosaur has slight of hand as a skill and reading through it most likely has functional hands which dramatically opens up options for this little guy that really no other animal companion could use. Even if the dm doesn't allow it to wield weapons just its synergy with more stealthy druids is of note. Also if the dm is allowing venomfire then the little swindlespitter has a potent breath weapon every 1d4 rounds that carries riders for anyone who fails their saves.

So if your in a horribly cheesy game you could potentially have a weapon wielding tiny dragon knight as your animal companion which is rather hilarious.

[Troacctid]

I think the case against prestige classing premised on the wild shape loss has been a bit overstated. There aren't that many plans that are both super good and ditch a lot of wild shape. Also, I think we're out of the druid realm at this point. Anyone can take divine minion, pick up aberration wild shape, and then use some prestige class that doesn't advance wild shape. Druid prestige classes are fine, but I dunno that they're generally better than non-druid prestige classes, y'know?

Okay, look at it another way: if there were a template that gave you Wis to AC and upgraded your wild shape to a free action, what are the chances that you would NOT include it?

[eggynack]

You could also use it to fuel the wild feats, I suppose. Most still stink, but a few might be nice.

I wish. As with wild shape trades, I don't think there's a single wild feat (except maybe extra wild shape, which doesn't count for this) that does much of anything.

I'm thinking Venom's Gift

Can't even take this one, cause no plant form. Also, that damage is so minimal and this is apparently your third wild feat.

and Eagle's Wings

Probably the closest to viability, far as I can recall. Still, doesn't seem particularly worth a feat.

As a side note, it fits thematically with the exalted build, and I think that Vow of Poverty lets you get Exalted Wild Shape without meeting the prereqs, meaning you could be doing it at level 1 or 2.

I don't think that's a thing VoP does.

On a side note, it should be mentioned that Swindlespitter Dinosaur has slight of hand as a skill and reading through it most likely has functional hands which dramatically opens up options for this little guy that really no other animal companion could use. Even if the dm doesn't allow it to wield weapons just its synergy with more stealthy druids is of note.

That is odd. Dunno about the weapon wielding thing, but a dinosaur thief is pretty amusing.

Okay, look at it another way: if there were a template that gave you Wis to AC and upgraded your wild shape to a free action, what are the chances that you would NOT include it?

Decent? LA makes good abilities not all that worthwhile, and it's not all that difficult to get identical and comparable abilities respectively for straight cash. Those abilities are decent, but they're way worse than what just about any other class taking this template is getting. I guess the druid edge is entirely in enhance wild shape here? There's some kinda logic to that.

[Kalkra]

You need to be able to wild shape into a plant for Venom's Gift, but you can use any usage of wild shape to fuel it, so a level 12 druid could use divine minion fast wild shapes (if your DM allows). I hadn't noticed the other two wild feats as a prereq, though.

Also, VoP grants bonus feats without mention of prereqs, which I think means you don't need to qualify. Could be wrong about that, though.

EDIT: I looked into it, and it seems that only certain bonus feats can ignore prereqs.
EDIT #2: I just realized that being able to wild shape as a free action makes Eagle's Wings more redundant, not less. And anyway, with Exalted Wild Shape you can literally teleport anywhere, so it's all moot.

[liquidformat]

Just noticed a mistake under the APE animal companion

While the ape lacks much in the way of interesting special abilities, like the leopard’s pounce+grapple or the dire flight’s flight

[c1b3rshad3]

This may be the greatest creation ever created.

Please tell me you dm a game I can play in.

I think it's been a few years since I logged into giantitp. I usually just read and lurk.

Eggynack for president!

[jdizzlean]

question:

taking the superior summons (ceremonial) feat from dragon compendium, p147, grants you the ability to apply the champion template to your summons. the template gives your summons max HPs, allows you to apply touch spells at any range as long as you can see them, and also allows you to cast them at +1 CL. Does this CL bonus only apply to the duration, or if it would put your casting to where you could summon another level of SNA higher to you also get to do that?

I'm thinking it's just duration, but it's dragon mag related, so i figured i'd ask.

thanks!

[Goaty14]

Does this CL bonus only apply to the duration, or if it would put your casting to where you could summon another level of SNA higher to you also get to do that?

An improved caster level does not equate to a higher effective spellcasting level. The improved CL does allow for a longer duration, but also other CL-based effects (such as the caster level check if somebody attempted to dispel your summons).

[eggynack]

Snip

Increasing the caster level can't transform a spell into a different one, so you would not get more or better creatures.

Separately, on a dragon note, I've added the tortle to the race list. It's sweet. Not the best thing out there, but better than a lot of +wis options.

[jmax]

question:

taking the superior summons (ceremonial) feat from dragon compendium, p147, grants you the ability to apply the champion template to your summons. the template gives your summons max HPs, allows you to apply touch spells at any range as long as you can see them, and also allows you to cast them at +1 CL. Does this CL bonus only apply to the duration, or if it would put your casting to where you could summon another level of SNA higher to you also get to do that?

I'm thinking it's just duration, but it's dragon mag related, so i figured i'd ask.

thanks!

Looking at the sourcebook, there is an additional detail: A Champion spell has as a material component a topaz worth at least 250 gp. Not insurmountable, but the costs will add up.

[eggynack]

Looking at the sourcebook, there is an additional detail: A Champion spell has as a material component a topaz worth at least 250 gp. Not insurmountable, but the costs will add up.

Yeah, it's a decent part of the reason I'm probably not gonna wind up including it. That and the fact that a ring of mighty summons does a lot of the same kinda stuff.

Anyways, I've been thinking about the spell affliction lately. It's so weird. It reminds me a lot of poison, except it weirdly does extra hurt to charismatic monsters. It can also hit any stat, and lacks the melee touch attack. Downsides are lower base damage, especially lower base damage for the constitution version, and it's evil only. As an extra upside, the text on the afflictions is frequently super weird and potentially kinda powerful, especially given the fact that afflictions last. Is the fact that the target gets super paranoid or whatever pertinent? Eternal torpor is kinda a thing, cause it turns off charging, but it might be one of the least fun afflictions.

As a super arbitrary sidenote, my work in progress document is super short now, cause that sample build, and also the early plant companion entry to a lesser extent, ate up crazy space. Only like a page and a half long.

[jmax]

Yeah, it's a decent part of the reason I'm probably not gonna wind up including it. That and the fact that a ring of mighty summons does a lot of the same kinda stuff.

That's it! I was fairly sure there was an item that did the max HP thing, but I couldn't remember what it was called. At 14K, you break even on your 56th summon spell. By the time you can afford this, the reduced duration doesn't matter all that much. Depending on campaign length, you may or may not ever actually hit 56 summon spells - but feats are immeasurably valuable compared to gold.

On the other hand, the ring only functions 3x/day. You also don't have to use the Champion spell template every time. You could save it for when you really need that good meat shield, and if you need lots of them, you can just mainline topazes.

If it didn't burn a feat, I'd say Champion spell might actually be the better bet. With the feat cost, tough call, especially since you have to burn the 250 gp to get the un-touch-range buffs as well.

[jdizzlean]

i won't even be taking that until 9th lvl

right now my feats are:

flyby attack, ashbound summoning, nat spell

then i have the ring of the beast on top of that.

[Troacctid]

There is a variant that allows you to use Aberrant Dragonmark as an aberrant feat in place of Aberration Blood for prerequisites.

[eggynack]

There is a variant that allows you to use Aberrant Dragonmark as an aberrant feat in place of Aberration Blood for prerequisites.

Not sure what to make of that. Big question would be how to categorize it. I guess it'd just be a part of the aberration wild shape entry, cause it's not precisely a druid variant. Could merit a feat entry, though that could be a bit misleading. Other question is whether there's all that much utility to it. You'd probably want the charm person one. That's maybe better than the already there prerequisites, but not by much. Definitely still a pure feat tax.

[Endarire]

Aberrant Dragonmarks: I like shield since shield AC is rare on Wild Shaped Druids with certain rare exceptions like an Animated shield.

jmax & shapechange: This spell only lasts 10 min/CL while Wild Shape lasts 1 hour (60 min) per Wild Shape level. A CL24 shapechange only lasts 4 hours, double if Extended, or triple if accessed via Rainbow Falls (Complete Mage 152) and you meet its arcane casting prereqs. A level 17 Wild Shape lasts 17 hours without trickery and a Druid17 can use normal Wild Shape 5/day and Elemental Wild Shape 1/day and still have spell slots to use for Druid spells.

[jmax]

jmax & shapechange: This spell only lasts 10 min/CL while Wild Shape lasts 1 hour (60 min) per Wild Shape level. A CL24 shapechange only lasts 4 hours, double if Extended, or triple if accessed via Rainbow Falls (Complete Mage 152) and you meet its arcane casting prereqs. A level 17 Wild Shape lasts 17 hours without trickery and a Druid17 can use normal Wild Shape 5/day and Elemental Wild Shape 1/day and still have spell slots to use for Druid spells.

We aren't saying Wild Shape is useless after you get shapechange - just that its marginal value diminishes substantially. Access to Extend Spell is a given - a greater Extend metamagic rod is only 24,500 gp (although you don't have to choose to get it, it's within reach). Even so, getting 24/7 shapechange is hard - but not impossible. More importantly, shapechange can be dispelled or disjoined, so Wild Shape is still a solid backup. (Notably, if you don't mind waddling around as a Dire Tortoise all the time, you can use its guaranteed act-first ability to get shapechange up on demand with no risk of getting preempted. I don't do that because I think it feels crass, but it's certainly viable.)

The Rainbow Falls thing is interesting. If you have shapechange and access to the appropriate Monster Manual, you can technically use it - while I don't generally recommend actually trying to do so, there are a few creatures with explicitly Ex spellcasting. Hobgoblin Warsoul would do the trick. You also only need a single level of an arcane spellcaster class to use it - Druid 3/Wizard 1 is absolutely an arcane spellcaster that is also capable of casting 3 2nd-level transmutation spells, and nothing says the spells themselves have to be arcane. That's a silly reason to dip an arcane class though - not potent enough.

[eggynack]

We aren't saying Wild Shape is useless after you get shapechange - just that its marginal value diminishes substantially. Access to Extend Spell is a given - a greater Extend metamagic rod is only 24,500 gp (although you don't have to choose to get it, it's within reach).

Doppelganger's bile from complete champion also doubles the duration of shapechange for 95 GP a use. Ludicrously good rate. Those complete champion power components really deserve more talk in general. Quickening control winds for 215 GP is a big game.

[jmax]

Doppelganger's bile from complete champion also doubles the duration of shapechange for 95 GP a use. Ludicrously good rate. Those complete champion power components really deserve more talk in general. Quickening control winds for 215 GP is a big game.

Oooh, that is nice. I'll have to look into that. And I'll have to add a section to my shapechange handbook, because

Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

Which means that you can shapechange into a doppelganger, have a very trusted friend tap or remove your gall-bladder, and harvest your own. You know, if you want to be super cheap.

Angel's blood, essence of order, guardinal feathers, and gorgon horn are also all things you can harvest from yourself to reduce the cost. You can probably get the cost down by half depending on the DM.

[darkdragoon]

Not sure what to make of that. Big question would be how to categorize it. I guess it'd just be a part of the aberration wild shape entry, cause it's not precisely a druid variant. Could merit a feat entry, though that could be a bit misleading. Other question is whether there's all that much utility to it. You'd probably want the charm person one. That's maybe better than the already there prerequisites, but not by much. Definitely still a pure feat tax.

There is that Altar of the Dragon's Eye location, which also opens up a couple more feats. Of course, that may still be a lot of hoops to go through for relatively minor gains.

[jmax]

Looking at your write-up for Fire Seeds, I think there's a very potent strategy you've overlooked with them. The holly berry bombs' limitation to being thrown 5 feet is imposed entirely by their weight. Wrap them in a tiny sack with a small stone in it, and that problem goes away - you can toss them as well as you could toss a small stone. You do still need to prepare them in advance, especially to wrap them up, but it greatly improves the delivery options.

From there, you can use an Eternal Wand of launch item to plant them in something's face at pretty solid range.

Also the description of damage for holly berry bombs in the first paragraph incorrectly lists 1d6+1/level - it should be 1d8.

[Goaty14]

Looking at your write-up for Fire Seeds, I think there's a very potent strategy you've overlooked with them. The holly berry bombs' limitation to being thrown 5 feet is imposed entirely by their weight. Wrap them in a tiny sack with a small stone in it, and that problem goes away - you can toss them as well as you could toss a small stone.

Are you sure that's RAW? At the very best, the DM is letting you use it as an improvised weapon for a sling.

[jmax]

Are you sure that's RAW? At the very best, the DM is letting you use it as an improvised weapon for a sling.

I'm sure that RAW lets you throw small stones. At worst it's an improvised thrown weapon - range increment 10 feet, -4 non-proficiency penalty - but you only need to land on the right grid intersection, which is AC 5 per the Thrown Splash Weapons text.

As far as whether removing the weight gets rid of the "5 feet" restriction:

The holly berries are usually placed by hand, since they are too light to make effective thrown weapons (they can be tossed only 5 feet).

If it doesn't quite spell out that you could throw them if they are heavier, it does at least imply such quite heavily.