Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

[Darrin]

I mean, Darrin, just look at what some of the stuff on that list would actually mean. Core summoner might as well just read, "Take augment summoning."

Yes, that covers feats at 1st/3rd/6th, but what do you do with 9th/12th/15th/18th? It doesn't have to be extensive, but you can just list the most effective feat loadouts for the typical roles.

The holt warden might as well just be that, plus contemplative. And the hydra thing is mostly just frozen wild shape.

Indeed. But I'd still want to know which feat selections beyond that make me the best possible cryohydra. IUS? Spring Attack? Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra: Worg Pelt + Improved Trip + Knock-Down?

Arbitrary question time: First, does that seem to be the optimal layout for such a section?

I think there should still room for a "quick pick" section where I could say, "Show me a Core Druid 20 with the best feat picks", or "Show me the UberSummoner 20 with all the bells and whistles". Maybe just list the feat selections. Something where if I have a pickup game in 10 minutes, I can take a build stub and scribble out a character sheet really quickly, and worry about personalizing it later.

Finally, I know what most of those builds are, cause it's obvious, but what's Drunkey Kong and Arcane Hydrophant? I'm half inclined to think the latter is a typo, but I prefer to imagine a world where there exist some synergies between theurging and water magic, and with the former, I guess there's it could be referring to the whole thumb'd creature with a quarterstaff plan, but that seems entirely spell focused, and if drunkness actually comes in anywhere that that excites me.

I was trying to come up with a clever name for Monk 1/Druid 19. Originally I put down Monkeyzilla, then Dronkey Kong, then that became Drunkey Kong. And now that I think about it... I am intrigued. How about:

Race: Human, Azurin, Hadozee, or Strongheart Halfling
Stub: Monk 1/Druid 5/Drunken Master 2/Druid +12
Feats: Great Fortitude (1st), Dodge (1st), IUS (1st), Power Attack (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots (3rd), Open Least Chakra: Feat (6th), Natural Spell (9th), Improved Bull Rush (12th), Shock Trooper (15th), Leap Attack (18th)

In Legendary Ape form, you can wield a two-handed weapon... maybe a banana tree or a big wooden barrel full of rum. Add some alchemical capsules to the wooden barrel so you can light it on fire. Needs some Pounce, so maybe a add wild/beastskin buckler of some sort with a wand of lion's charge in there. With the "Stagger" ability, you can charge every round as you don't have to move in a straight line. Add a large necktie and you should be ready to go bananas.

This might work better with one of the dinosaur forms... is there any rule anywhere that says a T-rex can't wield a greatclub?

And yes, the Arcane Hydrophant was a typo, but now that I'm thinking about it... I am intrigued. Maybe do something with a water elemental companion/familiar? I will have to do noodle this around a bit more.

I forgot to mention my Jellobomber build... that's mostly Druid. Hmm. If I reworked it without the Incarnate levels, could probably still get 9th level spells out of it. Hmm... Worshipping Zargon (Elder Evil) gets me Willing Deformity, so put Shape Soulmeld: Elder Spirit, take Open Least Chakra: Crown at 12th. Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble at 15th. Still need flight, though... fire wings doesn't allow anything heavier than a light load. Master air works, but the duration is awfully short. Cloud-walkers should work, 60' (perfect) for 10 min/CL. So that's somewhat functional by ECL 16ish.

Race: Silverbrow Human
Stub: Druid 9/Thrall of Juiblix 3/Druid +8
ACFs: Rootwalker
Feats: Aberrant Blood (1st), Natural Heavyweight (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble (3rd), Aberrant Wild Shape (6th), Willing Deformity (Zargon), Thrall of Juiblex (9th), Shape Soulmeld: Elder Spirit (12th), Open Least Chakra: Crown (15th), Eagle's Wings (18th)

[eggynack]

Yes, that covers feats at 1st/3rd/6th, but what do you do with 9th/12th/15th/18th? It doesn't have to be extensive, but you can just list the most effective feat loadouts for the typical roles.

Yeah, but the overall impact of that is that there'd be one core druid, rather than three. Which seems possible. The only difference between the core summoner and some core melee thing would probably be when exactly you take multiattack.

Indeed. But I'd still want to know which feat selections beyond that make me the best possible cryohydra. IUS? Spring Attack? Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra: Worg Pelt + Improved Trip + Knock-Down?

The problem with that is that none of those things is liable to actually go on a "best" cryohydra. Cryohydras are really really good at hitting things hard. You don't need a bunch of feats to improve that. So, the best cryohydra build is probably a completely standard druid of some other type that happens to have frozen wild shape at 15th. Also, a druid build that only comes into itself at 15th is kinda weird. Come to think of it, a lot of the emphasis here would probably be on simply accelerating out the cryohydra, rather than trying to improve what's there. I dunno if that qualifies as a "build" though.

I think there should still room for a "quick pick" section where I could say, "Show me a Core Druid 20 with the best feat picks", or "Show me the UberSummoner 20 with all the bells and whistles". Maybe just list the feat selections. Something where if I have a pickup game in 10 minutes, I can take a build stub and scribble out a character sheet really quickly, and worry about personalizing it later.

That sounds plausible. In any case, any progress on this kinda stuff would probably have to wait until I'm done with the bigger fancy build. The notion of optimizing a build for maximum educational value is a pretty interesting one.

I was trying to come up with a clever name for Monk 1/Druid 19. Originally I put down Monkeyzilla, then Dronkey Kong, then that became Drunkey Kong. And now that I think about it... I am intrigued. How about:

Race: Human, Azurin, Hadozee, or Strongheart Halfling
Stub: Monk 1/Druid 5/Drunken Master 2/Druid +12
Feats: Great Fortitude (1st), Dodge (1st), IUS (1st), Power Attack (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots (3rd), Open Least Chakra: Feat (6th), Natural Spell (9th), Improved Bull Rush (12th), Shock Trooper (15th), Leap Attack (18th)

In Legendary Ape form, you can wield a two-handed weapon... maybe a banana tree or a big wooden barrel full of rum. Add some alchemical capsules to the wooden barrel so you can light it on fire. Needs some Pounce, so maybe a add wild/beastskin buckler of some sort with a wand of lion's charge in there. With the "Stagger" ability, you can charge every round as you don't have to move in a straight line. Add a large necktie and you should be ready to go bananas.

Yeah, that's quite a bit like what I'd thought it'd look like. Dunno how good it is, but it's certainly cool.

This might work better with one of the dinosaur forms... is there any rule anywhere that says a T-rex can't wield a greatclub?

I'd be surprised if claws could manage it, but you could always run it with fangshields druid subsitution levels to get hands.

And yes, the Arcane Hydrophant was a typo, but now that I'm thinking about it... I am intrigued. Maybe do something with a water elemental companion/familiar? I will have to do noodle this around a bit more.

Maybe. The ideal would be something particularly optimal that comes from using water stuff in combination with hierophant stuff. Dunno that such a thing exists, but the name could make looking worth it. The cheap solution, just cramming as much water theming as possible into a hierophant build, is always available, but it almost seems like a disservice to the concept.

I forgot to mention my Jellobomber build... that's mostly Druid. Hmm. If I reworked it without the Incarnate levels, could probably still get 9th level spells out of it. Hmm... Worshipping Zargon (Elder Evil) gets me Willing Deformity, so put Shape Soulmeld: Elder Spirit, take Open Least Chakra: Crown at 12th. Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble at 15th. Still need flight, though... fire wings doesn't allow anything heavier than a light load. Master air works, but the duration is awfully short. Cloud-walkers should work, 60' (perfect) for 10 min/CL. So that's somewhat functional by ECL 16ish.
Race: Silverbrow Human
Stub: Druid 9/Thrall of Juiblix 3/Druid +8
ACFs: Rootwalker
Feats: Aberrant Blood (1st), Natural Heavyweight (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble (3rd), Aberrant Wild Shape (6th), Willing Deformity (Zargon), Thrall of Juiblex (9th), Shape Soulmeld: Elder Spirit (12th), Open Least Chakra: Crown (15th), Eagle's Wings (18th)

That's an interesting one; might be worth looking into. Ultimately though, there's probably some kinda upward limit on how many builds would be ditching caster levels, lest the build section fall too far out of phase with the rest of the handbook. Even if I wind up with a buncha builds, the set'd probably go one MoMF, one hierophant, and then maybe a melee oriented build like this one or one of the ones mentioned above.

[Endarire]

What about a Druid build focused on shillelagh + brambles + spikes + quarterstaff/club? Best form is probably Legendary Ape.

[eggynack]

What about a Druid build focused on shillelagh + brambles + spikes + quarterstaff/club? Best form is probably Legendary Ape.

Problem with something like that is that there's virtually nothing on the build end, and I probably don't want to venture into the day to day stuff outside of the one big build I'm developing. Not even that much worth talking about on the daily side, especially cause I don't much like brambles or spikes. Only thing that'd be halfway interesting to note is fangshields druid substitution levels to allow for normally unhanded forms. Speaking of, status update on what I'm now terming "The Unnatural Druid", I have the feats up to 12th level, and the introduction and a bit of animal companion stuff for the daily side. So, decent amount complete, but it's a ways away from being done given that I'm making use of most elements of a druid.

[AnachroNinja]

I noticed the animal companion section of your guide doesn't include dire wolves. Just thought I'd mention it, also curious about your thoughts on them. They seem to be strictly inferior to brown bears unfortunately.

[eggynack]

I noticed the animal companion section of your guide doesn't include dire wolves. Just thought I'd mention it, also curious about your thoughts on them. They seem to be strictly inferior to brown bears unfortunately.

That seems like a pretty good justification for non-inclusion right there, given that brown bears aren't that crazy. Hadn't thought about it too much, to be honest, but a really quick and easy metric is the fact that using a dire wolf takes you all the way from SNA IV to SNA III, where SNA IV isn't even the top of the curve. And, as you note, that separation is a justified one. Really, the only thing making the dire wolf interesting is the most obvious aspect, tripping, but I don't think they have enough attacks, reach, or general AoO ability to make that any amount more interesting than grapple. That comparison between tripping and grapple on non-PC's might be an interesting one in and of itself, which may in turn justify an entry. The thing that possibly makes that not worth it is that I don't know that it generalizes well. If I'm using the platform of dire wolves to talk about nothing but dire wolves, because there's very little tripping otherwise, then that's probably not worth inclusion where a broader claim about some other not intrinsically potent animal companions with trip would be possibly inclusion-worthy.

Edit: Separate note, probably going to put in craft contingent and maybe the ripper from cityscape in there at some point. The former seems like a pretty clear gap in feat inclusion, and the latter is kinda interesting.

Double-edit: Just finished craft contingent spell. Not sure when the other entry will happen, but craft seemed pretty important.

[eggynack]

Not much to report on the unnatural druid, but I just updated the MoMF entry to include the fact that the hobgoblin warsoul and the kuo-toa exalted whip grant 9th level wizard casting and 8th level cleric casting respectively. If you really push it, going druid 7/MoMF 3, you can pretty much pretend to be a mystic theurge for a couple of levels, before you fall behind even that level of casting power. Also, mentioned this in the entry, but should probably mention it here too. Hobgoblin warsouls also get that weird ability that keeps popping up where you just always have a set of minions that support you fanatically. It's really weird ability templating, because why is there no mechanism by which these creatures get these follower creatures (it's because they're built as encounters, not forms, of course, but it's weird), and, as is so often the case, somewhat exploitable templating.

Anyway, for anyone interested, next up is probably something out of a list of possible entries I built up. Specifically, a pile of mostly corrupt BoVD spells, which are consume likeness, claws of the savage, evil weather, forbidden speech, preserve organ, and seething eyebane, and also the ripper, which is a creature from cityscape. Consume likeness seems to me like the most interesting of those, because it's this weird permanent disguise self that happens to have this secondary ability to get wings or gills, and then if I add that then I have two preserve organ targets, so that'll pop in around the same time. Claws of the savage is notably better than I'd previously given credit for, because I'd thought of it as, y'know, a way to get claw attacks, when it now strikes me more like shillelagh for claws, which is interesting. So, yeah, that's the stuff I have listed out, which is all hanging out on a doc alongside some research I was doing on planar touchstone, and that druid build. Could always do something completely unrelated to any of that stuff, but some of this stuff is interesting. Consume likeness especially. That spell is super weird.

[Bullet06320]

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article....fr/fx20011025a
Create Frenzy Dog
here's something for evil druids I noticed, that haven't seen mentioned yet

[eggynack]

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article....fr/fx20011025a
Create Frenzy Dog
here's something for evil druids I noticed, that haven't seen mentioned yet

Not sure that's actually useful, but it's pretty interesting. There are basically three modes here, and none of them work all that well. The first is hitting your animal companion, which doesn't work because swapping a companion into a magical beast makes it not a companion. Second mode would be hitting yourself with it, which is funny apart from the part where you're ditching all your feats, and also that HD thing. I do find it amusing that you can totally do that if you want, because aspect of the wolf happens to make you a wolf in addition to making you an animal. Third mode is the intended mode, hitting random creatures of the forest, but how much utility is there to arbitrary vicious creatures? They're not apparently under your control, so they're not that effective as minions or guardians, and they're not that strong, so you're not making the area much more dangerous. One could justify it as doing evil, but, honestly, it's not that much evil. You could just tornado or blizzard the area repeatedly and get better results. I do love anything instantaneous though. I feel like there's some potential to this thing that I'm missing.

[Bullet06320]

the web archives are an interesting place and have all sorts of stuff buried in there, that years later we are still looking at and discussing

and besides your guide wouldn't be complete without at least a mention of it, even if its subpar. lol

[eggynack]

the web archives are an interesting place and have all sorts of stuff buried in there, that years later we are still looking at and discussing

I certainly agree with that. Tons of great handbook stuff has web sources. In fact, I added some material from the fabulous cats web article pretty recently.

and besides your guide wouldn't be complete without at least a mention of it, even if its subpar. lol

The heuristic I follow for thing addition is that a thing added should be either useful in some sense, or useless despite clear claims to the contrary. There's obviously some room for stuff that doesn't fit in those categories, but I don't think that things should be added by the sole criteria that they're there and accessible to druids. There has to be a reason, even if that reason is something stupid like a funny name. Create frenzy dog is kinda weird and amusing, so it could pick up a weird and amusing slot, but my problem with that is that it's such a weirdly passive spell. You just say, "Here, have some vicious dogs, nature," and you get no apparent benefit, as even the benefit of arbitrary chaos will likely be lost in the noise of usual violence. So, if I were to add it now, I guess it'd be for how strangely useless it is,

[daremetoidareyo]

Child of Winter: Apply frenzy dog to vermin? Check my vermin guide: in sig!

Frenzy dog gives you survival as a class skill and extra HD! Check my survival guide: in sig

Check my animal guide: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...7Lb1ZQ/pubhtml

[eggynack]

Child of Winter: Apply frenzy dog to vermin?

That still doesn't get past the main problem with this spell, which is that it doesn't do all that much. If it did something, that'd be worth optimizing, but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Frenzy dog gives you survival as a class skill and extra HD!

Does "you" refer to the druid? Because a druid would be down HD, because they get shrunk to 5 HD, and they'd lose skills, because the spell allows a total of four skills, and you lose feats, because such is the spell. It seems like really heavy downside. One could imagine really heavy melee builds that could take advantage of the bonuses here, but that plan is stymied by the really high level of the spell and the seemingly fixed HD.

[daremetoidareyo]

That still doesn't get past the main problem with this spell, which is that it doesn't do all that much. If it did something, that'd be worth optimizing, but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Does "you" refer to the druid? Because a druid would be down HD, because they get shrunk to 5 HD, and they'd lose skills, because the spell allows a total of four skills, and you lose feats, because such is the spell. It seems like really heavy downside. One could imagine really heavy melee builds that could take advantage of the bonuses here, but that plan is stymied by the really high level of the spell and the seemingly fixed HD.

No, of course it doesn't apply to the druid. It applies to all the little critters of the forest. Which now all have ranks in survival. (So few animals have ranks in that!) These animals can now apply mud armor to themselves with a DC 10 survival check. And that armor can have all sorts of attachments added to it. With the proper application of spells and survival skill, start feeding people with in urban settings or otherwise. With the right handle animal checks and training, Animals with track can be assisted with animals that have scent.

Further, for snakes, they are now 5HD. Now they are eligible for teamwork feats. One of those teamwork feats, superior team effort, and the teamwork benefit animal trick can be combined with epic skill level feats (balance)! Now train a few teams of medium vipers in the teamwork benefit, Cast mass reduce animal, strap on a body suit full of size medium snakes and have them skill assist you on your balance check to walk on air.

Further, the template boosts animal charisma way up for some reason. Maybe there is a sorcery feat that can be dark chaos shuffled in?

[eggynack]

No, of course it doesn't apply to the druid. It applies to all the little critters of the forest. Which now all have ranks in survival. (So few animals have ranks in that!) These animals can now apply mud armor to themselves with a DC 10 survival check. And that armor can have all sorts of attachments added to it. With the proper application of spells and survival skill, start feeding people with in urban settings or otherwise. With the right handle animal checks and training, Animals with track can be assisted with animals that have scent.

Further, for snakes, they are now 5HD. Now they are eligible for teamwork feats. One of those teamwork feats, superior team effort, and the teamwork benefit animal trick can be combined with epic skill level feats (balance)! Now train a few teams of medium vipers in the teamwork benefit, Cast mass reduce animal, strap on a body suit full of size medium snakes and have them skill assist you on your balance check to walk on air.

The real problem here isn't about their strict power level. It's that create frenzy dog originally had the premise that you were going to use it on your animal friendship'd animals, and thus have a friendly vicious attacker, but that's not really a spell anymore, so the vicious attacker mostly just attacks viciously. What you'd want to do, I suppose, is make use of charm animal, but that doesn't seem to be as strong of a connection. It might work, however.

[Bullet06320]

No, of course it doesn't apply to the druid. It applies to all the little critters of the forest. Which now all have ranks in survival. (So few animals have ranks in that!) These animals can now apply mud armor to themselves with a DC 10 survival check. And that armor can have all sorts of attachments added to it. With the proper application of spells and survival skill, start feeding people with in urban settings or otherwise. With the right handle animal checks and training, Animals with track can be assisted with animals that have scent.

Further, for snakes, they are now 5HD. Now they are eligible for teamwork feats. One of those teamwork feats, superior team effort, and the teamwork benefit animal trick can be combined with epic skill level feats (balance)! Now train a few teams of medium vipers in the teamwork benefit, Cast mass reduce animal, strap on a body suit full of size medium snakes and have them skill assist you on your balance check to walk on air.

Further, the template boosts animal charisma way up for some reason. Maybe there is a sorcery feat that can be dark chaos shuffled in?

lol, I love it

all the weird things we can dream up

@ eggynack maybe Create Frenzy Dog is not a great option, or the most optimized option, but it is an option that a creative Dm or player can use to make their game more fun and interesting. IMO all options should be included, allowing others to choose for them self the best course of things at their table

[eggynack]

@ eggynack maybe Create Frenzy Dog is not a great option, or the most optimized option, but it is an option that a creative Dm or player can use to make their game more fun and interesting. IMO all options should be included, allowing others to choose for them self the best course of things at their table

My initial impression was based on the text of the spell and template. If, as the initial text of the monsters implies, you can get these things friendly to you, then they're perfectly serviceable minionmancy, if a bit weak for the level and reliant on finding low HD animals. If you can't control them, because animal friendship doesn't exist and dominate animal has a stupidly short duration, then I don't see how it's fun or interesting to set arbitrary creatures loose into nature where they'll attack stuff that you have little to no way of knowing about. There might be vague satisfaction to that, but you're just so far removed from it.

Separately, a point on handbook philosophy. I don't think all options should be included. At all. Including all options would create a handbook as long as or longer than the books it's referencing. There's just no point to it. The resource that allows people to choose for themselves the best course of action for their druid without hand holding already exists. It's called the game's source books. To that end, my handbook is missing an absolute ton of spells and options, totally on purpose. As a telling example, my handbook has twelve 9th level spells in it, and there are ten 9th's in core alone. What value would I truly add by having cure critical wounds, mass? Or the vast majority of HP healing spells, actually. This isn't a question of laziness or lack of spell-knowledge. I simply think that a handbook with spells that I think people should know about is more useful than one with all spells indiscriminately. I make a few exceptions in small categories, like initiate feats or ACF's, because just about all of those have some theoretical value-add for a druid, and because I find them interesting, but I think elimination, whittling things down to the best form, is a primary goal in handbook construction.

All this to say, I may add this spell, or I may not, but if I do it will be because it is worth adding. Not because it's a spell that can be cast by a druid.

[Vizzerdrix]

Ive been toying around with the watch spider. Found it makes a good mount for small druids, and does well with the feats that let a critter spit their venom.

Are you interested in Dragon mag stuff? I have issues that contain the plant companion and monsterous companions.

[eggynack]

Ive been toying around with the watch spider. Found it makes a good mount for small druids, and does well with the feats that let a critter spit their venom.

Yeah, it's kinda weak for anything resembling combat, but there's some utility there.

Are you interested in Dragon mag stuff? I have issues that contain the plant companion and monsterous companions.

I've gone through those sources, yeah. I'm aware of plant companion, but it seems a bit weak and has like a billion moving pieces. If there's a combination that makes it good, it'd be worth knowing about. Tricky part of it is that I'd probably have to rate each ability individually. Not that that strictly precludes inclusion, but it's a lot of work and handbook space for something that's probably weaker than normal companions. As for monstrous, I wasn't sure if I'd seen it, but now that I've looked I'm pretty sure I have. It's appealing on the surface, but the creatures you're getting aren't that exciting, and the fact that you have to wine and dine your companion reduces the utility by a whole lot. I'll take another look at the possible creatures though.

[eggynack]

Added a bunch of stuff. Evil weather, consume likeness, and preserve organ as planned. I also added some information to singer of concordance, because that class apparently gifts you with a nearly private demiplane that you get a bunch of benefits from. You need ten levels to get easy transportation there, but you only need one to know where the demiplane is hanging out and get a connection with it.

[Blackhawk748]

I don't see a section on Druids and Divination. I mean i know its usually the purview of the other full casters but i would be interested to see how Druids go about being a Diviner. I point this out as im currently making an Arcane Hierophant focused on Divining and i cant really find any info on Druids and how they do it, so this would be very helpful.

[eggynack]

I don't see a section on Druids and Divination. I mean i know its usually the purview of the other full casters but i would be interested to see how Druids go about being a Diviner. I point this out as im currently making an Arcane Hierophant focused on Divining and i can't really find any info on Druids and how they do it, so this would be very helpful.

There's actually a mini-section on that hanging out in the basics, particularly the sage entry under filling roles. I think I have most of the interesting options there, though it's possible there's something I forgot to put there. Y'know, some fey accessible through fey ring that happens to have some divination, with a siabrie obviously having something at the very least. Actually, the neutral mode of fey ring has a question asking component, so that's vaguely interesting. Not, like, actually useful levels of interesting, but it's a thing. A thing that might really merit inclusion in that entry is inquisition, which is like a better zone of truth. There's a bit of area where the druid's offerings don't perfectly overlap with the wizard's, like commune with nature/earth, but the wizard half is going to be pulling a lot of the weight here.

[Blackhawk748]

There's actually a mini-section on that hanging out in the basics, particularly the sage entry under filling roles. I think I have most of the interesting options there, though it's possible there's something I forgot to put there. Y'know, some fey accessible through fey ring that happens to have some divination, with a siabrie obviously having something at the very least. Actually, the neutral mode of fey ring has a question asking component, so that's vaguely interesting. Not, like, actually useful levels of interesting, but it's a thing. A thing that might really merit inclusion in that entry is inquisition, which is like a better zone of truth. There's a bit of area where the druid's offerings don't perfectly overlap with the wizard's, like commune with nature/earth, but the wizard half is going to be pulling a lot of the weight here.

Ah neat. I apparently missed that, so ill go and poke around there. Probably gonna have to add Fey Ring to the list of spells to use.

[eggynack]

Ah neat. I apparently missed that, so ill go and poke around there. Probably gonna have to add Fey Ring to the list of spells to use.

Was gonna say that that was just an arbitrary guess, but it looks like you can get divination at least from fey ring, and probably others. Minionmancy is neat. This has some commonalities with the situation I was in with my last post, where I thought talking about druid divinations was a nifty idea that'd be hard to find a place for, before I remembered that such an entry already existed. Life is odd sometimes.

[taut]

Wow, this guide is phenomenal. In fact, I finally joined this site simply to say that. Thank you!


A couple questions, one more of a suggestion, the other more of a critique:

1) Doesn't Rapid Spell deserve a little verbiage of at least the black variety?

I used it on my last summoner (a spirit shaman so different but in the ballpark-ish) and I think I would also recommend it on a druid based summoner. It doesn't work with spontaneous summoning of course, but it synergizes well with Ring of the Beast and Rod of Metamagic Quicken as long as you prepare a slot or three for that purpose. Combined with Ra-cheesi Elemental summoning you can leave a 45d6 shaped hole in your opponents as a swift appetizer before you serve up your standard action. Also, this can work well with Versatile Spell caster (see my next question) to give you an extra high level slot or two as fuel for the madness. The lack of facility with spontaneous summons is a drag, but if you've built around a strong summoning concept then you are surely going to be using summons as a means to solve your adventuring problems on a pretty regular basis, so it's not a big loss to have a few of them prepared.

2) Versatile Spellcaster - I don't think that feat means what you think it does...

...but opinions do vary.

As I read (and have usually played) this feat, the effect on spellcasters who normally prepare spells (but qualify through the cleric/druid loophole) is that you can lose two slots in order to generate an empty prepared-spell slot which can then be filled in the usual fashion for prepared-spell slots.

The RAW interpretation I use relies on the fact (opinion) that "Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher" does NOT grant you spontaneous casting abilities. It assumes that you already have such an ability for obvious reasons, but the benefit granted by the feat does not specifically grant such a thing. In other words, it gives you a higher-level slot, but it does not grant you a new means by which to use slots. The confusion is created by the fact that the feat was intended to apply to spontaneous slots, but that doesn't give you license to grab a new means of casting spells that is not explicitly granted.

So, one could presumably use the feat to drop two slots and spontaneously cast a higher level spell that you could already spontaneously cast...e.g. a Summon Natures Ally spell, or you could do this sort of thing during spell preparation and use the newly created higher level slot to prepare a higher level spell.

I suspect most people either play it the way you specify in the guide, or simply don't allow it at all...but if you think it through carefully you might find yourself agreeing that the above is both more technically correct by RAW, and more balanced.

Or you might tell me to shut up and go write my own damn guide :P

Thanks again for this impressive piece of work!

[Troacctid]

Well, the real reason why you don't use Versatile Spellcaster on druids is cuz they don't have spells known, so they can't normally cast spells off it. But it's pretty stellar on a spontaneous druid.

[eggynack]

Wow, this guide is phenomenal. In fact, I finally joined this site simply to say that. Thank you!

Glad ya liked it.

1) Doesn't Rapid Spell deserve a little verbiage of at least the black variety?

I used it on my last summoner (a spirit shaman so different but in the ballpark-ish) and I think I would also recommend it on a druid based summoner. It doesn't work with spontaneous summoning of course, but it synergizes well with Ring of the Beast and Rod of Metamagic Quicken as long as you prepare a slot or three for that purpose. Combined with Ra-cheesi Elemental summoning you can leave a 45d6 shaped hole in your opponents as a swift appetizer before you serve up your standard action. Also, this can work well with Versatile Spell caster (see my next question) to give you an extra high level slot or two as fuel for the madness.

I think there're just too many costs associated. You're losing a feat, the versatility of a spell slot, and a spell level. The impact of the second two things is that you shouldn't necessarily be using the feat if you have it, and that makes the feat cost really harsh. Basic summoning math dictates that a summoning of one level higher is about twice as powerful, due to the fact that any higher level summons you use can become an average of two summons of a lower level, and you're getting standard action use in exchange. The ability to just not prepare these things is so huge too, it seems wrong in some fashion to not take advantage of it. I'm inclined to think that such a trade isn't worth it, especially because alternatives exist. Golden desert honey and the chronocharm of the uncaring archmage are two of the better ones, doing the job in a way that's probably better. The former is rather expensive, but it does exactly what you want as opposed to some substitute, and the latter is level limited, but it's super cheap and efficient. There's also the shifter method, if you want to really invest. All in all, rapid spell just seems like the worst way to accomplish this goal, one that doesn't really have the outcome you want out of such a thing.

2) Versatile Spellcaster - I don't think that feat means what you think it does...

...but opinions do vary.

As I read (and have usually played) this feat, the effect on spellcasters who normally prepare spells (but qualify through the cleric/druid loophole) is that you can lose two slots in order to generate an empty prepared-spell slot which can then be filled in the usual fashion for prepared-spell slots.

The RAW interpretation I use relies on the fact (opinion) that "Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher" does NOT grant you spontaneous casting abilities. It assumes that you already have such an ability for obvious reasons, but the benefit granted by the feat does not specifically grant such a thing. In other words, it gives you a higher-level slot, but it does not grant you a new means to use slots.

So, one could presumably use the feat to drop two slots and spontaneously cast a spell that you could already spontaneously cast...e.g. a Summon Natures Ally spell, or you could do this sort of thing during spell preparation and use the newly created higher level slot to prepare a higher level spell.

I suspect most people either play it the way you specify in the guide, or simply don't allow it all...but if you think it through carefully you might find yourself agreeing that the above is both more technically correct by RAW, and more balanced.

I don't really see how that reading is parsimonious with the text as it exists. You're casting the new spell through the feat. You don't need some sort of weird other casting to use it, because the feat is providing the method. I mean, if we're getting technical here, the thing granted by versatile spellcaster isn't actually spontaneous casting. You're just happening to do something that acts akin to that ability in most relevant respects. A more convincing argument I've seen against the feat's working is that a druid may not "know" any spells, but I don't think there's all that much evidence to support the idea of "know" as a term defined that rigorously.

Edit:

Well, the real reason why you don't use Versatile Spellcaster on druids is cuz they don't have spells known, so they can't normally cast spells off it. But it's pretty stellar on a spontaneous druid.

Wizards actually have the notion of "knowing" a spell ingrained into their operation too, so it's definitely not just a spontaneity thing. The real questions, then, are whether a wizard's knowledge of their spells is substantially different from how a druid does spell stuff, and whether the absence of the "know" text on druids has absolute rules implications on whether they do, in fact, know spells.

[taut]

I disagree about Rapid Spell's utility

Well, I won't argue with the expert (too much), but if you really disagree then shouldn't you put it there in RED to warn people off? Seriously though, I've played with the feat and never had the regrets you're expressing. Like I said, if you built a summoning Druid and have the appropriate support for the feat, it's actually pretty strong. If you just toss it into a build with no plan around it, then yeah, it sort of sucks. Of course that's true with the majority of feats.

I disagree about Versatile Spellcaster.

Yeah, figured you would but thought I would throw it out there. Agree to disagree.

[Troacctid]

Divine casters like clerics, druids, and paladins don't have spells known. They can just prepare any spell from their class spell list. See the definition of a known spell.

[eggynack]

Well, I won't argue with the expert (too much), but if you really disagree then shouldn't you put it there in RED to warn people off? Seriously though, I've played with the feat and never had the regrets you're expressing. Like I said, if you built a summoning Druid and have the appropriate support for the feat, it's actually pretty strong. If you just toss it into a build with no plan around it, then yeah, it sort of sucks. Of course that's true with the majority of feats.

I mean, if you were spirit shamaning, then you'd be losing the spontaneity loss downside, and spirit shaman feats are way less interesting, so you'd be losing a lot of that downside too. You even get a bit more room for the item use stuff you were talking about, because wild shape items can be pretty sweet. It's a lot of things. If it does have a genuine appeal though, you may be correct about putting it in with a bad rating. Really, it's just kinda okay. It's doing this halfway decent thing in a halfway decent way, and while it's not putting you too far behind, the associated opportunity costs are annoying. It feels a lot like imbued summoning to me, in a lot of separate respects, though definitely at least somewhat better. I might get around to it at some point. Y'know what might actually make an interesting combination with it is blizzard. Now that spell is sweet business.

Edit:

Divine casters like clerics, druids, and paladins don't have spells known. They can just prepare any spell from their class spell list. See the definition of a known spell.

Fair enough. Didn't know there was a fancy glossary entry for that one.

Double-edit: Is it weird that I now want to put in the rapid spell thing, not because it would necessarily make sense or because I'm in the mood to organize my thoughts from that rapid spell post I just made, but because I arbitrarily want to maintain parity with the handbook's old length? Did the same thing pretty recently, taking out some wild shape thing and putting in that weird aberration ooze form. I like that form and all, cause it's oozy and interesting, but there's a decent chance I would have put more consideration into whether or not it's worth adding at any other time. Maybe it's just that I don't want folks to have less content or something. I'd probably add something like seething eyebane first though. That spell is cool. It's how druids do permanent blindness and such. Doesn't look like remove blindness works on it, cause you're exploding the eyes. Could this be that fabled purpose for the spell regeneration?