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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Divine casters like clerics, druids, and paladins don't have spells known. They can just prepare any spell from their class spell list. See the definition of a known spell.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by taut View Post
    Well, I won't argue with the expert (too much), but if you really disagree then shouldn't you put it there in RED to warn people off? Seriously though, I've played with the feat and never had the regrets you're expressing. Like I said, if you built a summoning Druid and have the appropriate support for the feat, it's actually pretty strong. If you just toss it into a build with no plan around it, then yeah, it sort of sucks. Of course that's true with the majority of feats.
    I mean, if you were spirit shamaning, then you'd be losing the spontaneity loss downside, and spirit shaman feats are way less interesting, so you'd be losing a lot of that downside too. You even get a bit more room for the item use stuff you were talking about, because wild shape items can be pretty sweet. It's a lot of things. If it does have a genuine appeal though, you may be correct about putting it in with a bad rating. Really, it's just kinda okay. It's doing this halfway decent thing in a halfway decent way, and while it's not putting you too far behind, the associated opportunity costs are annoying. It feels a lot like imbued summoning to me, in a lot of separate respects, though definitely at least somewhat better. I might get around to it at some point. Y'know what might actually make an interesting combination with it is blizzard. Now that spell is sweet business.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Divine casters like clerics, druids, and paladins don't have spells known. They can just prepare any spell from their class spell list. See the definition of a known spell.
    Fair enough. Didn't know there was a fancy glossary entry for that one.

    Double-edit: Is it weird that I now want to put in the rapid spell thing, not because it would necessarily make sense or because I'm in the mood to organize my thoughts from that rapid spell post I just made, but because I arbitrarily want to maintain parity with the handbook's old length? Did the same thing pretty recently, taking out some wild shape thing and putting in that weird aberration ooze form. I like that form and all, cause it's oozy and interesting, but there's a decent chance I would have put more consideration into whether or not it's worth adding at any other time. Maybe it's just that I don't want folks to have less content or something. I'd probably add something like seething eyebane first though. That spell is cool. It's how druids do permanent blindness and such. Doesn't look like remove blindness works on it, cause you're exploding the eyes. Could this be that fabled purpose for the spell regeneration?
    Last edited by eggynack; 2016-09-29 at 01:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Talkin bout Rapid Spell
    I'd never take Augment Elemental or Beckon the Frozen as those feats offer an incremental increase in something you're already doing (summon beat-stick) and it's a low value increment at that. But I'm glad they're in the guide, nonetheless.

    Rapid Spell on the other hand, in at least some fairly viable context for a reasonable Druid, can allow you to multiply your power through gains in action economy. (Quickenening a summons, then casting another summon on the same round is way more powerful than either of the two feats mentioned above).

    If you have Greenbound Summon and Ra-cheesi summon already, then casting summon spells is something your good at. So making it possible to do the thing you're good at twice per round is actually a big jump in power.

    Meh, whatever floats your boat.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by taut View Post
    I'd never take Augment Elemental or Beckon the Frozen as those feats offer an incremental increase in something you're already doing (summon beat-stick) and it's a low value increment at that. But I'm glad they're in the guide, nonetheless.
    True, but they're relatively cheap, at least. They work well with what druids like to do, which is spontaneous summoning. The core question for rapid spell, then, is whether it's actually an upgrade at all. If it's not, then augment elemental obviously deserves the spot over it. That you can just pile all of these decently sized bonuses onto this ability you always have in the background is a neat thing.
    Rapid Spell on the other hand, in at least some fairly viable context for a reasonable Druid, can allow you to multiply your power through gains in action economy. (Quickenening a summons, then casting another summon on the same round is way more powerful than either of the two feats mentioned above).
    The feat isn't exactly multiplying power here. The really expensive rod is, and we know this to be the case because you could still be doubling down on spells per turn. They just wouldn't be summoning spells. It's not like summoning is all that much more powerful than other things you're doing. In fact, it may well be less powerful in a lot of cases. What summoning brings to the table is versatility and ready access, as well as sheer face beating ability, and using rapid spell is sacrificing all three for this other benefit. In a weird sense, the disadvantage of rapid spell is that it turns SNA into all your other spells. Summoning has this list of advantages over here, and other spells have this other list of advantages over there, and rapid spell trades out SNA advantages for other spell advantages.

    If you have Greenbound Summon and Ra-cheesi summon already, then casting summon spells is something your good at. So making it possible to do the thing you're good at twice per round is actually a big jump in power.
    But, again, you can already do that otherwise if you need to. Golden desert honey is expensive, but not insanely so, and it's a thing you can bust out in moments where you need such an effect. And however good you get at summoning, it's not going to outvalue normal spells by that wide a margin.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    True, but they're relatively cheap, at least. They work well with what druids like to do, which is spontaneous summoning. The core question for rapid spell, then, is whether it's actually an upgrade at all. If it's not, then augment elemental obviously deserves the spot over it. That you can just pile all of these decently sized bonuses onto this ability you always have in the background is a neat thing.

    The feat isn't exactly multiplying power here. The really expensive rod is, and we know this to be the case because you could still be doubling down on spells per turn. They just wouldn't be summoning spells. It's not like summoning is all that much more powerful than other things you're doing. In fact, it may well be less powerful in a lot of cases. What summoning brings to the table is versatility and ready access, as well as sheer face beating ability, and using rapid spell is sacrificing all three for this other benefit. In a weird sense, the disadvantage of rapid spell is that it turns SNA into all your other spells. Summoning has this list of advantages over here, and other spells have this other list of advantages over there, and rapid spell trades out SNA advantages for other spell advantages.


    But, again, you can already do that otherwise if you need to. Golden desert honey is expensive, but not insanely so, and it's a thing you can bust out in moments where you need such an effect. And however good you get at summoning, it's not going to outvalue normal spells by that wide a margin.

    I always forget about Golden Desert Honey because the group we play with doesn't use the Optional Material component rules...yeah, if you have that then the feat is a lot less compelling. I see what you mean in that case, I doubt I would take the feat if I could use the honey.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by taut View Post
    I always forget about Golden Desert Honey because the group we play with doesn't use the Optional Material component rules...yeah, if you have that then the feat is a lot less compelling. I see what you mean in that case, I doubt I would take the feat if I could use the honey.
    For what it's worth, I don't think that the optional components are optional in the sense that you choose whether they exist or not. I think they're optional in the sense that a caster can choose whether or not to use them, as opposed to standard components which are mandatory. As a result, they should be about as common as any other alchemical item.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    First thing, seething eyebane. That spell is very strong for its level, though, as is so frequently the case with corrupt spells, the cost is very high as well. My entry on this one came out maybe too long, but it's probably fine. Second, raptor's sight, from races of the wild. Why wasn't it in the handbook before? I have no idea. It's very good, maybe edging towards blue. Great duration, great effect, great level. Not like I haven't looked through the source. So it goes. Third thing, big error correction. Golden desert honey is 300 GP rather than 600 GP, but pushing in the exact opposite direction is the fact that you need one unit/spell level. So, more expensive than I thought in most cases, but not really enough to make it not good. Both issues have been rectified in the price thing for golden desert honey, and the latter issue also for angel dust.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Golden desert honey is 300 GP rather than 600 GP, but pushing in the exact opposite direction is the fact that you need one unit/spell level. So, more expensive than I thought in most cases, but not really enough to make it not good. Both issues have been rectified in the price thing for golden desert honey, and the latter issue also for angel dust.
    You can cut the cost by using a Chaos Flask for only 100 GP. I'm a little fuzzy on how many doses it makes, but if we assume a dose is one ounce, then half a pound would be 8 doses. That should be more than enough for one battle.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    You can cut the cost by using a Chaos Flask for only 100 GP. I'm a little fuzzy on how many doses it makes, but if we assume a dose is one ounce, then half a pound would be 8 doses. That should be more than enough for one battle.
    That does seem like a good method. Even if you needed to use one flask per component, and then failed the check half the time, it'd still be cheaper than doing it normally. And those are two really harsh assumptions.

    Edit: Golden desert honey is of negligible weight, so if that's the only limiting factor then it works for any number of doses. The big problem is that it looks like a chaos flask can only make a single object, and golden desert honey is actually a solid, so you may be limited to a single dose per flask. I'm not sure what it means, meanwhile, that you can only shape the matter once each round. If you can carry like 20 of them and apply the wisdom check down the line sequentially in a single round despite that, then it works fine, but if not then it seems this plan won't work in battle (unless you can predict the timing on that battle ridiculously well, or otherwise need only a first level summoning spell). So, on further analysis, I'm not sure on this one.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2016-10-02 at 03:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Yet another three additions, all from complete champion, all of them power components. First two are the aurial sapphire, for 215 GP and the pearl of the waves, for 225 GP. These components let you quicken air and water spells respectively. And it doesn't even look like you need multiples. Utterly insane. You can just quicken a control winds or mudslide from out of nowhere, for, considering the effect, peanuts. Both get a blue rating, though I'm iffy on the pearl. My reasoning is that the pearl would definitely get blue if not for the superior sapphire (again, control winds), and it's not too overlapped in terms of spell type. Can't stress enough how amazing these items seem to be. The third is doppelganger's bile. To put it bluntly, it lets you extend shapechange for 95 GP. And that's about it. Really strong effect that I think any druid would really like at that level, but it's obviously super narrow due to the high level requirement. As a note for the future, I'm planning to maybe add divine presence, also from complete champion, which grants most likely a +5 to intimidate, and sometimes a +10, for 10 minutes/level. Face effects like that are pretty rare on a druid. I think it's alright for most druids, as a way to diversify your face portfolio a bit, and quite good on a half-orc druid, because you sometimes get intimidate as a class skill.

    Edit: Added divine presence. Seems really important to the entire concept of druid facery, because it gives you an edge in a whole other face skill. The "You get diplomacy, some animal interaction capacity, and really rare enchantment," argument for druid face tactics always feels a bit wanting. I'ma add a mention of this spell to the face entry for filling roles as a result.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2016-10-04 at 06:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Great handbook!

    1) Feat-wise:
    - alongside Reserves of Strength, I'd mention Elder Giant Magic (Secrets of Xendrik 135) whose prerequisites are somewhat easier to meet and which is also useful for pre-buffing.

    - I'm surprised you didn't mention Rapid Spell (Complete Divine). While it's not a must-have, it mitigates the biggest downside of summons: that you're a sitting duck and risk losing the spell if attacked.
    The Ring of the Beast compensates the level increase, and you can apply it spontaneously: casting a summon becomes a full-round action, worse than standard but much better than 1-round since you won't be interrupted.
    Since you can apply it spontaneously, you get to decide when you're in danger and need it.
    And of course your summons can act right away, so it's a win in action economy too.
    edit: I see there's some discussion it of it above. But the fact that you can use it spontaneously is key.

    2) Regarding Desmodu Bats, their entry in the MM2 states:
    "A silence spell negates this ability and forces the bat to rely on its weak vision, which has a range of 10 feet."
    I fear that if the DM were to keep that text, it would be crippling in many situations.
    But perhaps it's a 3E-ism that went away in 3.5E? I didn't see this canceled in the MM2 update, though. I didn't check the 3E MM bat and compare it to the 3.5 one.

    3) Regarding mental actions (Thoon Elder Brain): see the paralyzed condition. You can take a mental action while paralyzed, but you can't cast spells (unless you make them Stilled and Silent and they don't need material components).
    Some items require only mental activation (in the MIC in particular). In a gestalt game, you could use it to manifest powers. But in most games the extra mental action is likely to get be wasted on a druid.

    A question/request for more regarding summons: do you recommend to always take 1 animal from the level list? When/which creatures would you consider using with the "1d3 creatures from the N-1 spell" option?
    Last edited by namo; 2016-10-07 at 02:14 AM.
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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by namo View Post
    1) Feat-wise:
    - alongside Reserves of Strength, I'd mention Elder Giant Magic (Secrets of Xendrik 135) whose prerequisites are somewhat easier to meet and which is also useful for pre-buffing.
    Maybe. I really like the cap breaking element of reserves though, and the prerequisite on reserves is pretty trivial.
    - I'm surprised you didn't mention Rapid Spell (Complete Divine). While it's not a must-have, it mitigates the biggest downside of summons: that you're a sitting duck and risk losing the spell if attacked.
    The Ring of the Beast compensates the level increase, and you can apply it spontaneously: casting a summon becomes a full-round action, worse than standard but much better than 1-round since you won't be interrupted.
    Since you can apply it spontaneously, you get to decide when you're in danger and need it.
    And of course your summons can act right away, so it's a win in action economy too.
    You can only apply it spontaneously on spells with a greater than one round casting time. SNA doesn't fall into that category. I am considering including it now for a completely separate reason, however. Before, one of my main arguments against this was that quickening some SNA is about as interesting as quickening any other spell. With those power components I just found, any air or water spell is a better quickening target than anything outside those categories, and that makes rapid quickened air elementals really interesting and viable. Granted, even that small subset of spells has some things that are great to quicken, but the find definitely ups the interest level of rapid spell.
    2) Regarding Desmodu Bats, their entry in the MM2 states:
    "A silence spell negates this ability and forces the bat to rely on its weak vision, which has a range of 10 feet."
    I fear that if the DM were to keep that text, it would be crippling in many situations.
    But perhaps it's a 3E-ism that went away in 3.5E? I didn't see this canceled in the MM2 update, though. I didn't check the 3E MM bat and compare it to the 3.5 one.
    The text is definitely there. Still, the underlying operation there is somewhat weird. The ability to see normal-style, after all, is something you have in your normal form. Nothing indicates that you lose that when adopting a new form. Taking on the blindsense ability with enhance might mean you inherit the crappy vision, but you might still have your normally ranged vision. Also, here's a weird aspect. What if you're not silenced? Do you then not have to rely on that weak vision, meaning you maintain your solid normal vision? It's all kinda weird.
    3) Regarding mental actions (Thoon Elder Brain): see the paralyzed condition. You can take a mental action while paralyzed, but you can't cast spells (unless you make them Stilled and Silent and they don't need material components).
    Some items require only mental activation (in the MIC in particular). In a gestalt game, you could use it to manifest powers. But in most games the extra mental action is likely to get be wasted on a druid.
    Paralyzed specifies that you are bound to purely mental actions. Thoon elder brain doesn't have that "pure" aspect, aside from an example of what you can do which is not binding regarding the ability as a whole.
    A question/request for more regarding summons: do you recommend to always take 1 animal from the level list? When/which creatures would you consider using with the "1d3 creatures from the N-1 spell" option?
    I'd tend towards higher level with everything being equal, with consideration paid to a few mitigating circumstances. Particularly, if the low level creatures have some unique capability, like a unicorn's healing, if you need to deal with things in more places at once than a single creature would be able to handle (or, rather, that single creature plus whatever resources are already available), and, notably, if you plan to make use of group buffs following the casting. Animal growth on two lower level creatures is usually better than it is on one higher level creature.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    - Spontaneous Rapid Spell: wow, I somehow managed to miss the text all these years. Nevermind then, I agree it's not worth it most of the time.

    - Desmodu Bats: I'd add a warning that some of it is subejct to DM interpretation, then (the bane of optimization!)


    - Regarding multiple summons: at some point, someone should probably look at this in a very mathematical way, comparing the chances of either summon hits (and delivers a payload like grappling) with their lower starting to-hit chance vs the single higher to-hit chance....

    - I disagree with you regarding mental actions. They may not have a glossary entry, but it's a big stretch to allow spellcasting IMO.
    Other references:
    (XPH) Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally.
    Manifesting a power is an arduous mental task.
    Again, it's not like it's laid out clearly, but it approaches the problem from the other end: defining that some things are mental actions - which helps to see that most things cannot be done as mental actions.
    But I don't have the time to skim books looking for more references, so I'll leave it at that.

    (MIC) [Action Type] (mental): This type of item merely requires that you will it to function. Activating the item is a purely mental action. You can use the item in the area of a silence spell, while grappled, while paralyzed, and so on, as long as you have control of your own thoughts.
    Whiel the text says "purely", the title is just "mental".
    Last edited by namo; 2016-10-07 at 02:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    The desmodu bat's vision range is part of its blindsight ability. You don't gain a creature's extraordinary special qualities when you wild shape into it. It's a good reason not to use enhance wild shape with the form, but other than that, it shouldn't pose any hindrance.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by namo View Post
    - Desmodu Bats: I'd add a warning that some of it is subejct to DM interpretation, then (the bane of optimization!)
    I'ma just put in Troacctid's note that enhance wild shape might give you partial blindness in addition to blindsense.
    - Regarding multiple summons: at some point, someone should probably look at this in a very mathematical way, comparing the chances of either summon hits (and delivers a payload like grappling) with their lower starting to-hit chance vs the single higher to-hit chance....
    I dunno. Maybe. It just seems like which one to choose is so situationally dependent. A giant constrictor is probably the better choice against a single big enemy just as 1d3 giant crocodiles are better against a few separate enemies. Notably, one of the big advantages of big creature summoning is that you're not left up to the whims of chance and variance. 1d3 is probably worse than 2, at least when you, as a druid, will do well when things proceed in an average manner.
    - I disagree with you regarding mental actions. They may not have a glossary entry, but it's a big stretch to allow spellcasting IMO.
    Other references:
    (XPH) Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally.
    Manifesting a power is an arduous mental task.
    Again, it's not like it's laid out clearly, but it approaches the problem from the other end: defining that some things are mental actions - which helps to see that most things cannot be done as mental actions.
    But I don't have the time to skim books looking for more references, so I'll leave it at that.

    (MIC) [Action Type] (mental): This type of item merely requires that you will it to function. Activating the item is a purely mental action. You can use the item in the area of a silence spell, while grappled, while paralyzed, and so on, as long as you have control of your own thoughts.
    Whiel the text says "purely", the title is just "mental".
    Well, consider the inverted argument, for a moment. In particular, if a mental action is one that can only involve the mind, then what can a physical action be than one that does not involve the mind? However, as the mind is necessary for bodily motion, this would preclude the use of such motion during your physical action round. But, because the thoon elder brain explicitly can take some action during this time span, I posit that there is produced a contradiction. Especially because, if you do allow mind use during a physical action, then what is stopping you from using your mind to produce psionic effects? This, in turn, would mean that the thoon elder brain gets to use two powers a turn, which is super weird.

    I think, therefore, that a physical action is one where the primary tool used is the physical body, and a mental action is one that primarily uses the mind. Some mind use during a physical action is inevitable, and some body use during a mental action is possible, though not inevitable. I think it's a reasonable reading, if perhaps not the only one possible.

    Edit: Basically, I think that mental and physical actions act as something of a partition for actions. Any given action is either mental or physical, so casting, which is clearly not physical, is mental. I don't think the alternative even fits the intent of the creature, as the idea that the thoon elder brain just wouldn't be able to cast spells at all seems weird.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2018-06-15 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Holy crap,

    I just read that entire thing. That is a work of total commitment, tyvm for doing that, i have a much better grasp on my druiding options.

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    eek Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    update for your booK:

    in researching summon fey, a lvl 1 spell, you have it listed as saying you can summon anything w/ HD equal to or lower than the spell level used to cast it, but the source states it is CR rating, not HD, so summoning a 1HD pixie is actually a CR of 4 or 5 depending on abilities so you wouldn't be able to do that at lvl 1




    http://www.kenzerco.com/Orpg/kalamar/KPG11_spells.pdf

    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Pixie

    sad day for the cheese meter

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    update for your booK:

    in researching summon fey, a lvl 1 spell, you have it listed as saying you can summon anything w/ HD equal to or lower than the spell level used to cast it, but the source states it is CR rating, not HD, so summoning a 1HD pixie is actually a CR of 4 or 5 depending on abilities so you wouldn't be able to do that at lvl 1
    Not sure how valid that is as a source, because KoK is super weird, and the original source does in fact list it as HD, but it has some potential value add. You lose pixies, mostly, but you get more efficiency on stuff like dryad, shadar-kai, satyr, and the spriggan. Also, grig and nixie are still around and doing nice stuff.

    Edit: To be clear on why it's weird, here's my understanding of the situation. Kenzer Co is not, in the general case, a first party resource for 3.5. It was only in the context of this one weird book that they happened to get the kinda licensing they need to act as a first party resource. It's thus like dragonlance, in that you're only really allowed to reference this one book, and anything else in kalamar is strictly off the table. So, the question at hand is whether an update to the book is considered first party, because it exists strictly in conjunction with a legal book, or third party, because it is not under the same sort of license that the base book is under. I feel like the strict rules answer might be that it doesn't count, while a more reasonable analysis would say that it does count. I might put in something at the top like, "If you're using the possibly not legal update..." and then have some optimization advice given that premise below what I already have. Because, again, KoK is super weird.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2016-10-18 at 01:19 PM.

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    smile Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    I have been thinking about Druid and gestalt, and I am fairly convinced that some of the best gestalts for a druid involves making a bunch of dips.

    For example:
    Chaotic Neutral
    Druid 20 //
    Cloistered Cleric 1/Spiritual Lion Totem City Brawler Barbarian 1/Hit and Run Fighter 1/Totemist 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Shiba Protector 1/Warshaper 5/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Chameleon 2/Hierophant 4

    So yeah, 10 classes. While there are a bunch of prerequisite feats here, most of those are common feat taxes that can easily be granted by items or magical locations.

    Feats:
    1. Able Learner
    H. Persistent Spell
    C. Cleric 1: Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell(Planning Domain), +1 Free domain
    Barb Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting(Unarmed only...)
    Fighter 1: Power Attack
    3. Combat Expertese
    Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
    Belt of Endurance: Great Fortitude
    6. Natural Spell
    Ioun Stone - Dark Blue Rhomboid: Alertness
    9. Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
    12. Free
    15. Free
    Chameleon Floating Feat
    18. Free

    What you get on top of druid:
    - Pounce in all forms
    - Arms in all forms and two additional claw attacks
    - IUS and TWF with at least 1d8 base damage
    - +2 Initiative
    - Dex to damage against flat footed opponents
    - Wis (assuming Swordsage is made to work sanely) and Con to AC
    - Wis to attack and damage
    - All Warshaper goodies
    - The amazing flexibility of the floating feat
    - Hierophant choices including the ability to share wildshape with your party

    Some other possible dips:
    Wizard 1: Abrupt Jaunt or Summoning as a standard action, Bonus Fighter Feat
    Sacred Exorcist/Contemplative/Holt Warden: the usual
    Fighter 2: another bonus Fighter Feat
    Monk 2: Invisible Fist, more bonus feats, replaces swordsage/barbarian
    Last edited by Rebel7284; 2016-11-03 at 01:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Yeah, that's pretty close to the conclusion I came to, though I never took the time putting it together into a cohesive build. A lot of my entries in that section read like that. It makes sense, given how top heavy things tend to be on the melee side of things, and given also that a solid method is putting together a set of passive bonuses like that. One thing I have been meaning to add, on that account, is prestige classes akin to the ones you've listed. Listing something like, say, fist of the forest doesn't make sense in the prestige classes section, but it doesn't make too much sense to not list it as an arbitrary gestalt option. So, yeah, it's a good philosophy as applies to druid gestalting, and I think that what I have is consistent with that, if not necessarily complete.

    Still, while it's a good route, I'm not all that convinced that it's just the best route. All those benefits you mentioned are quite strong, but can they compare with anything that'll consistently allow you to screw with the action economy, thus maximizing the utility of your spells? The thing you seem to be angling towards to compete with that is the cleric dip for DMM persist, but I contend that the feat actually isn't as strong on a druid. It's good, but it's not the same as really direct supreme active capability. Hitting really hard can only get you so far. Also, pretty sure the wizard rapid summoning ACF doesn't cover SNA.

    So, yeah. Might get around to listing some of those gestalt dip options, because it's a good idea. Unlikely to say something in the opening like, "If you're going to gestalt, what you really want on your secondary side is as many melee dips as possible, and anything else you'd do with those levels is somewhat inferior to such a plan." Pretty unlikely also to list stuff like contemplative. That's stuff you could easily be doing on your druid side, so why aren't you just doing that? You're basically giving up a fancy level of whatever for some wild shape and animal companion advancement. Really gotta think a gestalt level has to be around or above that level.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    There's lots of different ways to approach gestalting on a druid.

    Melee is certainly one option, if not the one i'd choose. IMO druids already do fine in melee, given the right choice of form. Or summon. Or animal companion. Or all three together most likely.
    Sure, it looks good on paper. Big numbers. But do you actually need more melee damage? The good melee forms already come with big numbers built in.
    There's also the fact to consider that melee is the dumb option in d&d.
    Why would i take my considerable spellcasting might and then use half my build to turn it into hitting things when i could summon tornadoes/tsunamis/volcanos/Orglash Storm Elementals instead?
    And even if you go that route (be it fear of AMF or whatever) i'd say that going for a ToB build would be more effective than just dumping some more numbers on your WS forms. Because as i said, WS forms already do fine in melee even on a pure druid, and i'd take maneuvers over pounce and some extra damage any day.

    You could also go for action economy shenanigans.
    Psionics is undisputed king for that (Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike, Schism and Temporal Acceleration) and also grants access to Metamorphic Transfer, which is especially interesting for Aberration WS users.
    Or you could go with Swiftblade for the extra action every round and massive defensive bonuses, with wizard spells like the Celerity line, Mind Blank etc. as the cherry on top.

    The third options is going for defensive and utility dips.
    How about 2 levels of Witch Slayer (which is near effortless to qualify for) for Mettle? 2 levels of Heir of Syberis so you qualify for Mark of the Dauntless and Mark of the Stars?
    Get some rogue levels for better ref saves and Evasion (and skillpoints). Pick up some stealth skills and Hide in Plain Sight.
    Get some Earth Dreamer for Earth Glide and the ability to see through earth and stone. Pick up a level of Mindbender and Mindsight.

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    Melee is certainly one option, if not the one i'd choose. IMO druids already do fine in melee, given the right choice of form. Or summon. Or animal companion. Or all three together most likely.
    Sure, it looks good on paper. Big numbers. But do you actually need more melee damage? The good melee forms already come with big numbers built in.
    There's also the fact to consider that melee is the dumb option in d&d.
    Why would i take my considerable spellcasting might and then use half my build to turn it into hitting things when i could summon tornadoes/tsunamis/volcanos/Orglash Storm Elementals instead?
    And even if you go that route (be it fear of AMF or whatever) i'd say that going for a ToB build would be more effective than just dumping some more numbers on your WS forms. Because as i said, WS forms already do fine in melee even on a pure druid, and i'd take maneuvers over pounce and some extra damage any day.
    To be fair to dips, those dip oriented builds offer a bunch of more utility and defense oriented stuff. Totemist, swordsage, cleric, and chameleon clearly have some inclination towards interesting abilities that a non-melee druid would be interested in. On the other side, a barbarian dip might be dense enough to be worth it even if going solid ToB, and warshaper has some meaningful combat advantages over ToB. The more direct combat and less insane options are more iffy.

    The third options is going for defensive and utility dips.
    How about 2 levels of Witch Slayer (which is near effortless to qualify for) for Mettle? 2 levels of Heir of Syberis so you qualify for Mark of the Dauntless and Mark of the Stars?
    Get some rogue levels for better ref saves and Evasion (and skillpoints). Pick up some stealth skills and Hide in Plain Sight.
    Get some Earth Dreamer for Earth Glide and the ability to see through earth and stone. Pick up a level of Mindbender and Mindsight.
    Not a big fan of rogue. Seems like a mostly worse version of monk at the evasion thing, worse than factotum at the skills plus snazzy benefits thing, and only useful in this weird intersection of the two qualities. Witch slayer is interesting though. Mettle lines up really well with a druid's saves. Cha focus isn't great, cause I'd otherwise be vaguely interested in the momentary disjunction thing and the smite thing would be slightly better, but yeah, mettle is nice. Heir is also somewhat interesting. The caster level or bonus feat thing is super weird when gestalting with a caster though, cause you seem to get nothing, and, along those lines, it's a pretty feat heavy plan in general. There's a lot to like about it though. The SLA is nifty, and, while I'm not super familiar with dragonmarks, it looks like this would allow access to dragonmark spells, particularly dragonblood beast, as well as fully charged mark of the wild. Earth dreamer doesn't seem all that much better in a gestalt than it does on a standard druid, so if I were to include it, it'd likely be as a standard prestige class (and it's a kinda mediocre one, I think). Mindbender has an arcane caster level requirement. It'd probably already be in the prestige class section if it weren't.

    So, that'd be a maybe to probably on including witch slayer and heir when/if I get around to expanding the gestalt section. Witch slayer is an easy write, so it may pop up before some others.

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Not a big fan of rogue. Seems like a mostly worse version of monk at the evasion thing, worse than factotum at the skills plus snazzy benefits thing, and only useful in this weird intersection of the two qualities. Witch slayer is interesting though. Mettle lines up really well with a druid's saves. Cha focus isn't great, cause I'd otherwise be vaguely interested in the momentary disjunction thing and the smite thing would be slightly better, but yeah, mettle is nice. Heir is also somewhat interesting. The caster level or bonus feat thing is super weird when gestalting with a caster though, cause you seem to get nothing, and, along those lines, it's a pretty feat heavy plan in general. There's a lot to like about it though. The SLA is nifty, and, while I'm not super familiar with dragonmarks, it looks like this would allow access to dragonmark spells, particularly dragonblood beast, as well as fully charged mark of the wild. Earth dreamer doesn't seem all that much better in a gestalt than it does on a standard druid, so if I were to include it, it'd likely be as a standard prestige class (and it's a kinda mediocre one, I think). Mindbender has an arcane caster level requirement. It'd probably already be in the prestige class section if it weren't.

    On Heir of Syberis, another thing apart from the spells to consider is that it gives you access to quite a few unique magic items.
    Of particular interest is Dragonmark Rod (which will let you use the powers of the lesser versions of your dragonmark) with the combo of Collar of Wild Bond (which makes the Dominate Animal power of the lesser Mark of Handling permanent) and the Scepter of Wild Dominion (which lets your dragonmark abilities affect magical beasts).

    Want to have a pet Tarrasque? Now you can, for 2 levels in Heir of Syberis and 47,000gp. Or you could just use it on the animals you've awakened for free with the power of the Greater Mark of Handling.
    Additional pets come at 5,000gp each for an extra collar, which is quite affordable at higher levels.
    Last edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2016-11-03 at 07:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    Want to have a pet Tarrasque? Now you can, for 2 levels in Heir of Syberis and 47,000gp.
    The Tarrasque also has loads of spell resistance and a high Will save, so good luck getting the spell to stick with your piddly dragonmark caster level and save DC keyed off a dump stat.

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    On Heir of Syberis, another thing apart from the spells to consider is that it gives you access to quite a few unique magic items.
    Of particular interest is Dragonmark Rod (which will let you use the powers of the lesser versions of your dragonmark) with the combo of Collar of Wild Bond (which makes the Dominate Animal power of the lesser Mark of Handling permanent) and the Scepter of Wild Dominion (which lets your dragonmark abilities affect magical beasts).

    Want to have a pet Tarrasque? Now you can, for 2 levels in Heir of Syberis and 47,000gp. Or you could just use it on the animals you've awakened for free with the power of the Greater Mark of Handling.
    Additional pets come at 5,000gp each for an extra collar, which is quite affordable at higher levels.
    It's definitely kinda worth looking into (kinda cause there's only so much attention I can pay to wide spanning gestalt optimization). I tended to ignore dragonmark stuff, cause it seemed somewhat inaccessible. Gotta say though, if I'm going heir of syberis, the mark of handling is pretty far from where I'd end up, cause the SLA's kinda suck. Passage, sentinel, maybe detection, it reads a bit like an initiate feat you take at really high level. Maybe this 50k GP tarrasque plan makes it worth it, but as Troacctid notes, anything seriously worth having is going to be hard to collar. But yeah, dragonmarks ahoy.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2016-11-05 at 04:41 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    I'm three updates deep now in edit form, which is usually my cut off for just making the updates a post, so I'ma do that. I added witch slayer, warshaper, and hierophant, because they're all pretty easy to write and all seem to belong there. I'm probably not going to add shiba protector, because it feels like you get most of what you're spending a feat, a level, and some other resources for with intuitive attack, and that's not even a feat typically worth taking. It's plausibly I'd add it as a thing particularly to point out that I think it's mediocre, because the whole ability mod stacking thing is vaguely appealing, but I tend to be a bit hesitant to add things for that purpose. Undecided on barbarian. It's a dense dip, no doubt about it, but the things it's dense with aren't that exciting. Heir is prolly gonna take awhile, because it's complicated and junk. Kinda reminds me of the binder entry, where I wound up doing some relatively intensive research for such an out of the way topic. Gotta say, gestalt has been perhaps the most troublesome section to write.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    I'm probably not going to add shiba protector, because it feels like you get most of what you're spending a feat, a level, and some other resources for with intuitive attack, and that's not even a feat typically worth taking.
    Adding Wisdom to attack AND damage (and not only weapon damage either) vs. replacing Strength with Wisdom for only weapon attacks is a pretty big difference. With that said, I agree that the feat tax does make it a difficult class to slot in.
    Last edited by Rebel7284; 2016-11-07 at 02:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel7284 View Post
    Adding Wisdom to attack AND damage (and not only weapon damage either) vs. replacing Strength with Wisdom for only weapon attacks is a pretty big difference. With that said, I agree that the feat tax does make it a difficult class to slot in.
    Fair argument. Makes it somewhat more worth consideration, though I'm still not a fan of the whole spending feats for decent additional punching power thing, and even less of a fan of that plus the level.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Found something that my cursory searching didn't unearth:

    A 5th level druid spell from the standing stone Adventure page 32
    Spoiler: Create Faux Human
    Show

    Level: Drd 5
    Components: V, S, DF
    Casting Time: One day
    Range: Touch
    Target: Tiny or Small animal touched
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Will negates
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    You transform a Tiny or Small animal into a sentient humanoid resembling a halfling or human, respectively. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the target's HD). The newly created faux human has 3d6 Intelligence, +ld3 Charisma, and becomes a 1st-level commoner, expert, or warrior (your choice). Faux humans can speak Common but do not have the ability to communicate with other animals. Faux humans (or faux halflings) are of the humanoid type. Spells that affect animals do not affect animals transformed into faux humans. Faux humans appear identical to humans (or halflings), though they sometimes exhibit behavior reminiscent of their original form.

    Note: This spell must be cast within a ring of the standing stones that surround Ossington.

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    Default Re: Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

    Note: This spell must be cast within a ring of the standing stones that surround Ossington.
    That probably puts a bit of a damper on it.

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