Thoughts on the Psychic Detective?

[NightbringerGGZ]

I was wondering what y'all thought of the Psychic Detective? It's on my current not-so-short-list for my next character.

As a quick summary, the archetype gets the following:

• Trade out Alchemy for 6th level Int-based spontaneous spell casting using the Psychic spell list and the Bard chassis for spells known/spells per day.
• You drop all poison class features and swift alchemy for a scaling bonus on saves against psychic abilities and a bonus on dispelling psychic effects.
• You trade your first investigator talent for a small phrenic pool and a single phrenic amplification.

[Psyren]

I'd say it's a step up. There are several goodies on the Psychic list that Alchemists don't get - things like Vanish, Dispel Magic, Telekinesis and Teleport for instance. Psychic spells can also benefit from metamagic (including rods) while extracts can't. PDs can also buff allies without a feat-like-tax (Infusion) and can do multi-target buffs like Haste.

The Psychic list also, even at low levels, has a lot of very useful investigative magic on it. Regular investigators are unlikely to have things like Psychic Reading, Object Reading and Mind Probe, and Psychic Detectives get other toys like Hypercognition earlier than normal Investigators do.

There are downsides though:
- Alchemy (the Alchemist ability) is helpful for crafting useful toys at low levels, like alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags and holy water. Psychic Detectives have to rely on Studied Combat/Strike, their psychic spells, and their wits.
- Psychic Detectives are spontaneous. This means little room for niche powers like Dream Scan, and you're forced to use scrolls instead. Though you can at least use scrolls unlike an alchemist.

[Da'Shain]

Another downside is that you can't take Empiricist with it.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'm all about the psychic detective.

I always thought alchemy was an odd combo with the vanilla Investigator. I know it's supposed to be a fusion of rogue and alchemist, but I don't really imagine Sherlock making potions and poison: he's out there deducing stuff!

That said, the various psychic divinations make you much better at solving mysteries, and you can even 'flavor' them less as magic and more as your incredible mind deducing things and making astounding leaps in logic, etc.

I agree that the incompatibility with Empiricist is the biggest downside. In game unlikely to feature lots of other psychic or occult things, such as older adventure paths, I might allow replacing Psychic Meddler with the Empiricist abilities.

[Alex12]

Another downside is that you can't take Empiricist with it.

I remain puzzled at Paizo's choice of making Empricist an archetype instead of the default Investigator, instead of the much more sensible way of making the poisonmaker an archetype and the one who is actually good at investigating the investigator. Of course, I'm also irked that they don't have good at-will detection spell-likes. Honestly, if you just took away Empiricist Alchemy and gave them Int-based spontaneous casting off the bard list, I'm not sure I'd ever play anything else.

[Psyren]

I always thought alchemy was an odd combo with the vanilla Investigator. I know it's supposed to be a fusion of rogue and alchemist, but I don't really imagine Sherlock making potions and poison: he's out there deducing stuff!

Doesn't he smoke and toke up on opium to help him think though? Extracts would be the dire-half-dragon version of that.

[Slithery D]

I'm all about the psychic detective.

I always thought alchemy was an odd combo with the vanilla Investigator. I know it's supposed to be a fusion of rogue and alchemist, but I don't really imagine Sherlock making potions and poison: he's out there deducing stuff!

In the stories Sherlock Holmes does a lot of chemistry experiments, the results of which inform his deductions. That's one reason why it's flavored that way.

Edit: Plus what Psyren said, he did lots of self medicating.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Well the Empricist was fixed in the recent Eratta, so you now only get to use your Int Modifier on Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive and Use Magic Device checks with the additional abilities to use Int for Diplomacy checks to gather information. At level 20 you get Int to all skills.

It is still pretty good considering what you're trading out. The question I have would be is having Psychic spell casting better? I'm leaning towards yes.

Would it be worthwhile to make use of the spells that you can undercast, along with the undercast surge phrenic amplification? You get the benefit of being able to swap out the lower level spells when you grab a higher level spell that can be undercast, and you get to trade out one spell every 5 levels as well.

I could see picking up Ego Whip or Mind Thrust for some offensive options, though at early levels I'd probably be using Color Spray more than anything else.

[Alex12]

Well the Empricist was fixed in the recent Eratta, so you now only get to use your Int Modifier on Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive and Use Magic Device checks with the additional abilities to use Int for Diplomacy checks to gather information. At level 20 you get Int to all skills.

Free Inspiration, not Int. Skills, ability checks (including initiative!). Actually worse than the vanilla Investigator capstone, but Int to skills is solidly respectable. Also, note that the psychic list lacks the restorative spells that alchemists (and thus investigators) have. In the last campaign I played investigator in, I was the only one who had access to any healing capabilities. I know healing isn't considered hugely important on this board, but in a low-loot campaign or one with random drops that doesn't just have magic-marts all over, that can be important.

[Da'Shain]

Well the Empricist was fixed in the recent Eratta, so you now only get to use your Int Modifier on Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive and Use Magic Device checks with the additional abilities to use Int for Diplomacy checks to gather information.

Did they get Int to more skills before? I don't even remember. But even Int to those four and a half skills is awesome and much preferable to most Investigator concepts I can think of than the poison use/resistance. (Five and a half, if you add the Student of Philosophy trait, which of course you would. What gentleman is complete without it?)

[NightbringerGGZ]

Did they get Int to more skills before? I don't even remember. But even Int to those four and a half skills is awesome and much preferable to most Investigator concepts I can think of than the poison use/resistance. (Five and a half, if you add the Student of Philosophy trait, which of course you would. What gentleman is complete without it?)

I prefer Bruising Intellect myself, but I tend towards a less than entirely gentlemanly degree of misanthropy.