What to Use to Play a Dragon

[Draconium]

So, I've always had an obsession a fondness for dragons. So when I started looking into monstrous races for D&D 3.5 and found out that the True Dragons had a level adjustment - and therefore, were playable - I was psyched. Until I realized just how badly level adjustment sucked, that is.

So, now that I've been here for a bit, I thought I'd ask the Playground. Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?

Before anyone comments, just let me clarify. I don't what to play someone who can ride a dragon. I don't what to play someone descended from dragons. I don't want to play someone who uses draconic powers. I don't want someone who has a dragon from. And don't even think about suggestion Dragonwrought Kobold from 3.5.

No, I want suggestions on a system that lets you play an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred, no-cheese, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, princess-kidnapping, ten-ton mass of muscle and pure flaming fantasy fury. I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.

So, are there any systems for doing so? Please let me know, it would be much appreciated!

[JNAProductions]

FATE, I think, would let you play as one.

[JAL_1138]

I have absolutely zero firsthand experience with the sourcebook/box-set in question, and thus can't comment on quality, but Council of Wyrms for 2e had dragon-PC rules. The campaign/setting was built around it, really. And they meant dragons, not dragon-themed humanoids.

Or, well, there's always True Polymorph.

[Illven]

So, I've always had an obsession a fondness for dragons. So when I started looking into monstrous races for D&D 3.5 and found out that the True Dragons had a level adjustment - and therefore, were playable - I was psyched. Until I realized just how badly level adjustment sucked, that is.

So, now that I've been here for a bit, I thought I'd ask the Playground. Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?

Before anyone comments, just let me clarify. I don't what to play someone who can ride a dragon. I don't what to play someone descended from dragons. I don't want to play someone who uses draconic powers. I don't want someone who has a dragon from. And don't even think about suggestion Dragonwrought Kobold from 3.5.

No, I want suggestions on a system that lets you play an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred, no-cheese, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, princess-kidnapping, ten-ton mass of muscle and pure flaming fantasy fury. I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.

So, are there any systems for doing so? Please let me know, it would be much appreciated!

3.5 Monster gestalt games would let you play a dragon.

[Draconium]

Council of Wyrms does sound right up my alley... but I've had bad experiences with 2e in the past.

Greatly games are an option, but honestly, they aren't all that common. I wished they were, but oh well... If I can find one, I'd love to try it out.

Haven't tried out FATE. Looks like one of those more generic RPGs, though, the ones that are really meant to be used for almost anything... Right?

[Kid Jake]

You could easily play a dragon in Mutants and Masterminds.

[meschlum]

It takes a while to get to the point where you're a major threat, but Hoard might appeal?

[Daedroth]

So, I've always had an obsession a fondness for dragons. So when I started looking into monstrous races for D&D 3.5 and found out that the True Dragons had a level adjustment - and therefore, were playable - I was psyched. Until I realized just how badly level adjustment sucked, that is.

So, now that I've been here for a bit, I thought I'd ask the Playground. Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?

Before anyone comments, just let me clarify. I don't what to play someone who can ride a dragon. I don't what to play someone descended from dragons. I don't want to play someone who uses draconic powers. I don't want someone who has a dragon from. And don't even think about suggestion Dragonwrought Kobold from 3.5.

No, I want suggestions on a system that lets you play an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred, no-cheese, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, princess-kidnapping, ten-ton mass of muscle and pure flaming fantasy fury. I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.

So, are there any systems for doing so? Please let me know, it would be much appreciated!

Option 1: Oslecamo Monster Clases (Homebrew, D&D 3.5)
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1045.0
Oslecamo has all of core dragons and somo others

Option 2: Play Legend (D&D derivated game, a great one)
http://www.ruleofcool.com/

[Mastikator]

Are there any rules in 3.5 that specifically say players can't play as an actual dragon? You'd have to forgo leveling, but dragons do advance in HD, CR as they age.

[DigoDragon]

I have absolutely zero firsthand experience with the sourcebook/box-set in question, and thus can't comment on quality, but Council of Wyrms for 2e had dragon-PC rules. The campaign/setting was built around it, really. And they meant dragons, not dragon-themed humanoids.

I've played that campaign. It was... complicated. I'd rather use a point-based character creation system to build a dragon PC.

[LibraryOgre]

GURPS had a setting called Technomancer, which had a semi-similar idea to Shadowrun... only instead of magic coming back in 2011 and everything being cyberpunky, magic came back in 1944 and everything is modern, plus magic.

Anyway, one aspect of this is that the US got a clutch of dragon eggs, and raised them. And, if you want, you can play as a dragon. We played a game in Vietnam, where our group was entirely dragons in a Marine Aviation Wing (Zippo Squad: SEMPER FIRE!) We carried giant guns and terrorized the Viet Cong and frustrated our command.

[TheCountAlucard]

Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?

Define "without completely screwing you over."

Would it "completely screw you over" if your powers were point-for-point less efficient than that of typical PCs, or if you had to start a little ahead of "typical PC chargen?"

Would it "completely screw you over" if you had to ask the GM's permission rather than blindly assume the person running the game feels your choice is in line with the tone and themes of the game he wants to run?

Would it "completely screw you over" if the setting already had something of a set of expectations for draconic behavior that wasn't perfectly in-line with yours (for instance, dragons being members of the bureaucracy of Heaven, which makes princess-kidnapping less-typical, albeit not impossible)?

Because if those are fine by you I'd be happy to suggest Exalted.

Spoiler: Here There Be Dragons

Show

The Elemental Dragons are among the most powerful manifestations of the essence of the five elements of Creation - air, earth, fire, water, and wood. Some sparingly few elementals undergo a fantastical evolution that transforms them into a lesser elemental dragon - many of these are in turn given positions of some renown in the Celestial Bureaucracy of Yu-Shan, the Heavenly City.

The original Elemental Dragons were the children of Gaia, the Primordial creator of the five elements - they aided in the gods' war against the titans by imbuing ten thousand great mortal heroes with their blood. Other "lesser" elemental dragons came into being later, and at the urging of the original five, were given their illustrious positions.

Some have gone even beyond these limits - the Kukla is an Earth dragon of apocalyptic power, tens of miles long and thoroughly mad, but lies sleeping inside a dormant volcano deep beneath the sea; Gardullis is a Fire dragon coiled around the Daystar itself.

Let's check Exalted's dragons against your criteria:

No, I want… an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred…

You'll want a permissive Storyteller if you want to play an elemental dragon, but the same can be said of a player wanting to play any drastically different splat from anyone else.

…no-cheese…

This is gonna be another thing you'll need to clarify.

…flying…

Check. Flight is something they can often do - even the ones without wings.

…fire-breathing…

Check. Depending on your element of course. Some might instead spit steam, ice, lightning, scouring sand, lava, molten glass, poison, corrosive gas, or a cloud of flesh-eating spores.

…gold-hoarding…

Check. Gold's not the typical metal of currency in Creation, but it's still a valuable metal. You're free to make your character a hoarder though.

…princess-kidnapping…

Check? This is another of those "it's on you to do that" kinda things.

…ten-ton mass of muscle…

Size will vary, but ten tons is reasonable.

…and pure flaming fantasy fury.

I'm guessing you'll want to be a Fire dragon.

I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.

Well, I think it's a reasonable fit.

If not, maybe loan your GM a copy of Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, and explain what you want.

[Draconium]

Define "without completely screwing you over."

Would it "completely screw you over" if your powers were point-for-point less efficient than that of typical PCs, or if you had to start a little ahead of "typical PC chargen?"

Would it "completely screw you over" if you had to ask the GM's permission rather than blindly assume the person running the game feels your choice is in line with the tone and themes of the game he wants to run?

Would it "completely screw you over" if the setting already had something of a set of expectations for draconic behavior that wasn't perfectly in-line with yours (for instance, dragons being members of the bureaucracy of Heaven, which makes princess-kidnapping less-typical, albeit not impossible)?

Because if those are fine by you I'd be happy to suggest Exalted.

If not, maybe loan your GM a copy of Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, and explain what you want.

Geez,no need to be so rude. I was actually referring to your first point - but only your first point - being overall less effective than a typical PC. I don't need to be more powerful, but I think that if I want to play a dragon, then I should be at least as capable as a "normal" PC. The term "completely screwed over" was referring to level adjustment from 3.5 and the like, which makes it so much harder to play any non-classic PC race.

Also, if it wasn't clear - in which case, I apologize - my first post was meant to be humorous to read.

[TheCountAlucard]

Geez,no need to be so rude.

I was actually referring to your first point - but only your first point - being overall less effective than a typical PC.

The thing is, where does effectiveness enter into it? You'll have your advantages and your disadvantages, but the same is true of pretty much any set of options anywhere.

If you want to play a dragon in Exalted, you can (assuming the ST is okay with it), but it's hard to compare effectiveness because you won't even resemble a "typical PC" (but the same is true of playing a dragon in most any system). How do you compare a dragon to Heracles, Moses, Jubei, Gilgamesh, or Sun Wukong?

Also, if it wasn't clear - in which case, I apologize - my first post was meant to be humorous to read.

My apologies then for not reading it as humorous. I get in enough arguments with certain other posters over my suggestions failing to psychically match up with the definition they're going by that only makes sense in their headspace (no, not naming names). >.>

Edited my earlier post to compare Exalted dragons to your criteria.

[Draconium]

The thing is, where does effectiveness enter into it? You'll have your advantages and your disadvantages, but the same is true of pretty much any set of options anywhere.

If you want to play a dragon in Exalted, you can (assuming the ST is okay with it), but it's hard to compare effectiveness because you won't even resemble a "typical PC" (but the same is true of playing a dragon in most any system).

I define effectiveness as being able to effectively keep pace, in any situation, with a baseline race and class. Such as classic PC races. I don't have an inherent problem with being asked to be start at a higher level, assuming the GM's okay with it, as long as the power level has been adjusted correctly. Which, in 3.5, it was not.

My apologies then for not reading it as humorous. I get in enough arguments with certain other posters over my suggestions failing to psychically match up with the definition they're going by that only makes sense in their headspace (no, not naming names). >.>

Edited my earlier post to compare Exalted dragons to your criteria.

I apologize for reacting as I did - my reaction there probably came off as rude. Guess I should practice what I preach.

Also, just to be clear, my description of dragons in the OP was just a basic, overall description of classic dragon traits. (With no-cheese referring to being someone who's not just a "technically" dragon to qualify for draconic features.) I don't need every single part of that, as long as it is what would be considered a true dragon, and it captures the overall feel of one.

[TheCountAlucard]

I define effectiveness as being able to effectively keep pace, in any situation, with a baseline race and class.

Exalted is a classless system. As for "races," only humans can Exalt, but the game also establishes that Rubber Forehead Aliens are human.

Such as classic PC races.

I don't find it much fun to spend a lot of time worrying about how my character stacks up next to another, nor do I guess you'd find it satisfying. You're going to have a harder time picking a lock than a human, but at the same time, you'll have an easier time smashing down the door or blasting it to ashes. The same is true though when I play a martial artist or a sorcerer and compare myself to a thief.

[ellindsey]

You could definitely build a Dragon with the Hero System Rules. Hero System is generally crap at emulating D&D style fantasy games, but it's great for making super-powered creatures with at-will powers like flight and breath weapons. I was actually considering building a silver dragon (who would spend most of the time in human form) for a Hero system superhero game that a friend was starting up recently.

[Daedroth]

Also, just to be clear, my description of dragons in the OP was just a basic, overall description of classic dragon traits. (With no-cheese referring to being someone who's not just a "technically" dragon to qualify for draconic features.) I don't need every single part of that, as long as it is what would be considered a true dragon, and it captures the overall feel of one.

The more i read you, the more i think Oslecamo Monster Clases and Legend are for you.
Like you am a dragon fanboy entusiast and trust me, both capture the overall fell of one pretty decently and are a lot of fun to play.

[Anonymouswizard]

FATE, I think, would let you play as one.

Seconding Fate. Not only can you play as a great big badass Dragon from character creation, even if you might have to give up Refresh, skill ranks, or Stunts to get the full fire-breathing and flying package. As extra fun, you should be roughly balanced with whatever the other players bring.

Yes, a High Concept of Big F***ing Dragon might be applicable basically in any physical situation, allowing you to spend Fate points on it fairly often, but you don't get many to begin with, and it's not the best Aspect for getting compels off of either (except maybe for 'you can't fit in here'). My suggestion is to take a 'Love of Treasure' aspect that should get you a good number of compels, while letting you invoke it to help identify shiny things.

And no, you will not be more powerful than the singing magical sword that hurts opponents by reciting awful poetry (that is my character concept if I ever manage to play in a fantasy game using Fate).

[TheCountAlucard]

Chuubo's is also pretty flexible, hence my suggesting it earlier.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Ars Magica does this exceptionally. If you can work out a compromise with the other players (or better yet, with their characters) such that you're getting your fair share of the vis (basically solidified pure magic), then yeah, you can play without getting screwed over in any way by being a dragon. If they aren't willing to let a non-human non-magus get their fair share of vis, you can also find your own and avoid their sharing system altogether, but that can get tricky if you're regularly interacting with the magi, who might try to kill you or steal from you to get more vis if you don't have a good relationship or provide an incentive for them not to do so. (Which is not to say this is always a losing situation; playing a dragon is different from playing a magus, and a bit harder, but when it comes down to brass tacks you're a towering serpent with inherent magic resistance, physical combat abilities to make the mightiest lions look like mice, and your own Powers to deal with what is ultimately a regular human with a wide variety of things to feebly bounce off your Magic Resistance.)

Still, if you can make the arrangement work, a dragon played in place of a human magus would be a lot of fun, as much as playing a magus. Thanks to the Might system, you are still reliant on the same substance as magi, as aforementioned; where magi need vis to perform ritual spells and enchant magic items and maybe boost the Penetration of their spells in really scary situations, you'll need vis just to learn and grow, at least if you want to stay independent.

Note that given how the mechanics for growth with creatures of Magic Might work, you do need to be careful what type of saga you play this in. High-vis sagas make everyone more powerful, especially you, since you can grow mostly unimpeded just like the magi, getting physically and mentally more capable, learning deep skills, and developing new Powers as the magi study their tomes and master their magic. In a game with low vis but an abundance of good books, on the other hand, the advancement of the magi will completely blow you away, as you're hoarding for several seasons just to get one decent chunk of XP.

... Unless you become somebody's familiar, which makes playing a Magic creature easier in many respects but also puts demands on your time and requires shudder emotional contact with a magus PC.

Also note that while Ars Magica is hands-down my favorite system of all time, it comes with some things many people don't like. It's long-term, with time measured in seasons and a rather sickeningly realistic rate of skill advancement in-character. It's classless and level-less, instead being focused around your character spending their time reading or practicing skills (or just receiving exposure to them in everyday work) to put XP in those individual skills. Also, while the game can in the deepest pits of theoretical circumstance be played with only your dragon character, in practice you'll almost certainly be playing with multiple characters, so if you want to be playing your dragon every single session you may be disappointed. Lastly, it's a narrative game, not a combat simulation game, and while there are combat rules (good ones, even) if you want to use them, it can still be distressing for some new players to know that their combat beasts have to share narrative spotlight with politicians and herbalists and the like who can't contribute anything in a fight.

If those things don't turn you away, I implore you to try it out. You won't regret it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Also note that while Ars Magica is hands-down my favorite system of all time, it comes with some things many people don't like. It's long-term, with time measured in seasons and a rather sickeningly realistic rate of skill advancement in-character. It's classless and level-less, instead being focused around your character spending their time reading or practicing skills (or just receiving exposure to them in everyday work) to put XP in those individual skills. Also, while the game can in the deepest pits of theoretical circumstance be played with only your dragon character, in practice you'll almost certainly be playing with multiple characters, so if you want to be playing your dragon every single session you may be disappointed. Lastly, it's a narrative game, not a combat simulation game, and while there are combat rules (good ones, even) if you want to use them, it can still be distressing for some new players to know that their combat beasts have to share narrative spotlight with politicians and herbalists and the like who can't contribute anything in a fight.

My friend had his character get kicked out of the library. He was eventually let back in with the promises that a) he would not take any books away, and b) no fire magic in the library. This had the side-effect of limiting his ability to grow for a few seasons.

Other problems with Ars Magica: it's basically impossible to get the players to actually deal with stuff rather than spend the entire session roleplay reading books. Somebody else always has the paper you want. Nobody near me is willing to run it, and I really want to play a character who makes tons of magic items (so going to need Personal Vis Supply for that).

[Vrock_Summoner]

My friend had his character get kicked out of the library. He was eventually let back in with the promises that a) he would not take any books away, and b) no fire magic in the library. This had the side-effect of limiting his ability to grow for a few seasons.

That's an amusing anecdote, but your own actions having consequences that indirectly result in slowed advancement (using fire magic in a library is generally not something you do without permission or a really good reason) isn't much of a critique against the system.

Other problems with Ars Magica: it's basically impossible to get the players to actually deal with stuff rather than spend the entire session roleplay reading books. Somebody else always has the paper you want. Nobody near me is willing to run it, and I really want to play a character who makes tons of magic items (so going to need Personal Vis Supply for that).

Correction, it's hard to get the magi to want to deal with stuff. Companions and grogs are pretty easy to motivate. As for magi, that's what Personality and Story Flaws are for. Or providing the possibility of receiving books or vis or political benefits for it. Besides, home roleplaying can be a ton of fun and advance the plot all on its own.

Nobody nearby wanting to play it is a valid concern. Ars Magica doesn't have the widest audience.

[Milodiah]

May I suggest Rifts?



No, seriously, I actually rather like Rifts thank you very much. And it does have rules for playing as a dragon hatchling. And this is a game where you could TOTALLY play as an adult dragon, it just might be overpowered compared to the rest of the party. Note that I said might, I've killed a godling as a regular old smuggler before.

[One Tin Soldier]

So, I've always had an obsession a fondness for dragons. So when I started looking into monstrous races for D&D 3.5 and found out that the True Dragons had a level adjustment - and therefore, were playable - I was psyched. Until I realized just how badly level adjustment sucked, that is.

So, now that I've been here for a bit, I thought I'd ask the Playground. Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?

Before anyone comments, just let me clarify. I don't what to play someone who can ride a dragon. I don't what to play someone descended from dragons. I don't want to play someone who uses draconic powers. I don't want someone who has a dragon from. And don't even think about suggestion Dragonwrought Kobold from 3.5.

No, I want suggestions on a system that lets you play an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred, no-cheese, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, princess-kidnapping, ten-ton mass of muscle and pure flaming fantasy fury. I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.

So, are there any systems for doing so? Please let me know, it would be much appreciated!

I just so happen to be creating an entire game that you might be interested in (link down in my signature). It's a World of Darkness game, so you are playing a dragon in the modern day, hiding among humanity. This admittedly could violate your "not just a dragon form" stipulation, depending on your perspective, but I would love if you took a look.

[ZamielVanWeber]

May I suggest Rifts?



No, seriously, I actually rather like Rifts thank you very much. And it does have rules for playing as a dragon hatchling. And this is a game where you could TOTALLY play as an adult dragon, it just might be overpowered compared to the rest of the party. Note that I said might, I've killed a godling as a regular old smuggler before.

Beat me to it. Some of the hatchlings are pretty strong too.

3.5 can do this by the way: a steel dragon wyrmling with loredrake is 3 caster levels behind a sorcerer (ouch, granted) but gets a pile of advantages from being a dragon.

[paddyfool]

Fantasy Craft's Drakes work well out of the box from level one. The tricky part is finding a group who play FC, outside of maybe crafty games' own forum.

[Draconium]

I just want to thank everyone for your suggestions! Daedroth, that homebrew you suggested is particularly catching my attention, as I'm more used to 3.5. I'll have to try that out soon - maybe I could get a chance on the PbP forums here?

As for the other systems, it seems Rifts and FATE are decently popular, so I'll have to look into those some more. Exalted also seems fun, though I think I'd play that for other reasons as well.

[TheCountAlucard]

(Be sure and also check out Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, even if you get your dragon fix elsewhere; Chuubo's is amazing for forum-based games.)

[Draconium]

(Be sure and also check out Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, even if you get your dragon fix elsewhere; Chuubo's is amazing for forum-based games.)

Wait... what?

*checks on Google*

Holy crap, I didn't realize that was actually a thing. O.o Serves me right for assuming the name was a joke.