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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    The basics are pretty simple. Technological firearms are based on the regular firearms but take them one step further. For example, most regular weapons are always ranged touch attack and incorporate a free and stacking rapid shot feat.

    Cyberware is an expensive but slotless way to get your usual enhancement bonus, limited by a combination of your stats (Con/Int).

    Now psi-tech is interesting because it lets you breach limits. For example, you can install more cyberware than your scores would allow you to and you can keep using those weapon longer than your (very limited) ammo would last for.

    In essence, yöu now have moved into being a bery very good ranged striker. Not a full blown gish, but still good.
    If you can get the equipment. It's very expensive, so it would tie up a big part of your WBL and you'd need a feat for proficiency with a tech weapon. But yeah, a tech weapon with a dexterity boost cyber would synergize well with your discipline abilities and the "burn spell slots for recharge" psi-tech ability. You can hit stuff at range, and you can keep your weapon useable while replenishing your phrenic pool.
    Last edited by Slithery D; 2015-11-23 at 07:06 PM.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by Slithery D View Post
    If you can get the equipment.
    All cybertech costs the same as it's equivalent item would if it was slotless (x2). As far as I'm aware, most tech has costs similar to their magical equivalents, except for weapons which are screwy as hell.
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    The weapon prices are pretty ok for what they do and offer.

    (The groupe I gm'ed Iron Gods for ended up with Paladin, Ranger, Slayer, Witch/Technomancer, one of them in even opted to place shocking burst and fiery burst on his plasmacaster)
    Last edited by Florian; 2015-11-23 at 07:49 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    All cybertech costs the same as it's equivalent item would if it was slotless (x2). As far as I'm aware, most tech has costs similar to their magical equivalents, except for weapons which are screwy as hell.
    I mentioned cost without lookingup numbers, but the real issue is actual availability. If you're in Golarion there are no tech marts like there are magic marts, you have to find really rare crafting facilities and take crafting feats or work with/for the Technic League if you want cyberware especially.

    I will note there's a (not very big) tech black market in the Black Markets supplement. The Tarnished Halls offer 6,000 gp base value and 32,000 purchase limit for non-Technic League endorsed items. Evil smugglers and pirates are probably easier to deal with than evil mages, even if you can't get the good stuff.

    If you're playing Iron Gods, of course, this isn't going to be much of a problem, and this is an awesome discipline.
    Last edited by Slithery D; 2015-11-23 at 08:15 PM.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by Slithery D View Post
    I mentioned cost without lookingup numbers, but the real issue is actual availability. If you're in Golarion there are no tech marts like there are magic marts, you have to find really rare crafting facilities and take crafting feats or work with/for the Technic League if you want cyberware especially.
    *Shrug* Golarion is a weird setting, they try to keep everything in it's little bubble. I just ignore their fluff.
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    The basics are pretty simple. Technological firearms are based on the regular firearms but take them one step further. For example, most regular weapons are always ranged touch attack and incorporate a free and stacking rapid shot feat.

    Cyberware is an expensive but slotless way to get your usual enhancement bonus, limited by a combination of your stats (Con/Int).

    Now psi-tech is interesting because it lets you breach limits. For example, you can install more cyberware than your scores would allow you to and you can keep using those weapon longer than your (very limited) ammo would last for.

    In essence, yöu now have moved into being a bery very good ranged striker. Not a full blown gish, but still good.
    Oh, I've read the tech rules, I know what's up. I just have no experience seeing them in play, or have any useful advice on how to manage charges, deal with glitches, etc. It seems very campaign-specific.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    *Shrug* Golarion is a weird setting, they try to keep everything in it's little bubble. I just ignore their fluff.
    I don't think it's reasonable to expect most DMs to be handing out power armor and laser rifles in the bazaar though. In this respect, Golarion's approach is in line with how the average table would handle it, if they even allowed tech stuff to begin with.

    Either way, I think it's a niche enough combination to warrant a separate guide of its own, or at best an appendix.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    A couple of the psi-tech abilities (the force field and laser beams ones) barely have any tech flavor and can be considered pretty normal, though.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Interesting and weird answers. On one hand, there's lots of talk about using semi-modern firearms and the Gunslinger class, something that is based on a very tiny and mostly far away area of the setting (Alkenstar, Mana Wastes), even asia-themed weapons are talked about and incorporated into builds, them originating a whole continent away, while the source for high-tech items (Numeria) is pretty easy to reach and lies at the banks of the Selen river, one of the most frequented trade routes in the setting. Bias?
    (Not that I want to turn Golarion on a weird fantasy setting, I just want to understand the reaction to this)

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Spoilered for off-topic:

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    It's not quite accurate to say that Gunslingers are based on the the Mana Wastes. They merely originated there (out of necessity - gunpowder is pretty handy when magic doesn't work or is unreliable after all.) Since then they've matriculated to Taldor, Andoran and plenty of other places in the Inner Sea. The prevalence of magical firearms, which would be impossible to make in Alkenstar, proves that.

    As for Numeria - it may be easy to reach geographically, but thanks to the numerous security systems/hostile robots and other monsters prowling around, as well as the jealous hoarding of the Technic League, the sci-fi stuff still isn't easily accessible or retrievable even if you can get there. Worse, if you do manage to acquire some tech items (and don't blow your head off) and make it back to another nation to start selling them, they may very well come after you or put a contract on your head, leaving you fleeing thieves and assassins all across the region.


    If anyone wants to start a thread about firearms/technology in Golarion to discuss further I'd be happy to join, but the Psychic Handbook isn't really the place for this discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    How does this compare to the DPS Generalist Psion? In terms of Tier, utility, etc. They seem to have very similar chassis, just different power lists. Psions can nova, but Psychics get additional abilities...

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Psychic is T2, much like any other spontaneous 9th-level caster. They get some tricks Psions don't, most notably illusions - Psychics can turn invisible, create figments etc. They also get much better conjurations, including Planar Ally, Planar Binding, AND Gate. Psions still win in terms of action economy though.

    I would rate them slightly stronger than psions for that reason, just as sorcerers are slightly stronger than psions.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    In addition to action economy, I'd point out the Psion is much better at area blasting and direct damage than the Psychic. The Psychic has some good if narrow options at higher levels (Disintegrate and Horrid Wilting, mainly), but nothing as generally applicable as the Psion energy powers and their low level selection is pretty grim.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    @Psyren:

    This specific topic touches on the Psychic, so it is fitting here.
    Seem as a general topic, though, we can really move it elsewhere.

    @mostholycerberus:

    Hard to compare that, as the whole DSP stuff caries more 3,5 legacy over, mostly in terms of economy of actions.
    Last edited by Florian; 2015-11-24 at 12:42 PM.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Yes, further discussion of tech-specific stuff should probably migrate elsewhere. ^_^;;

    But I'll definitely agree that DSP psions are much better equipped for blasting. In some ways, metamagic is easier for them as well with the whole 'psionic focus' mechanic.

    I appreciate that the pathfinder psychic is decidedly different than the psion in terms of flavor. There's similarities and overlap to be sure, but the Occult Psychic is closer to Lovecraft's dream cycle stories. They took pains to keep the psychic foreign and mysterious, and I like that many of their powers are a bit more subtle (at least to outside observers).

    The occult psychic is closer to Inception, while the DSP psion is more like Akira. Crystals and giant explosions vs. incense and psychotropic mushrooms.

    I interpret the DSP psion as a much more inwardly-focused class, concentrating on the potential of the individual. The occult psychic is in tune with things beyond, drawing mental power from the strange truths they seek in the hidden places of the waking world and dreams. I love both classes, and I could even see them operating in the same campaign side by side.

    Of course, this is all just my own interpretation.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    I enjoy them both too. I was skeptical when Paizo announced their take would be "psychic magic" but I think it worked out well. Best part is that unlike 3.5, they don't need a "psionic section" in all the future splats - any new spell they come up with can just be added to a psychic caster's list and move on, and most of the same magic items will work too.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Interesting guide, thanks very much for writing it.

    A couple of things did jump out at me. For a caster class which has quite so many debuffs on its list it is hard to rate Persistent Spell as anything other than Blue. Forcing two saves, especially when you have the knowledge skills to be likely to be able to identify weaker saves provides a major boost in the chance of getting those debuffs to land. Really it is just the cornerstone feat for any control orientated caster.

    On traits it is very much worth including both Clever Wordplay and Student of Philosophy. Both turn Charisma skills into Int skills effectively allowing any Int primary class to easily act as the face character. With the recent FAQ/developer commentary on the way magic is always obvious it is useful to simply be able to steamroll most social encounters without relying on magic.

    I also think you underrate Amnesiac. It's power is not in prebuffing or combat use. It is a downtime ability allowing you to potentially poach any spell from your entire list and giving you enormous flexibility. It is similar to the Rebirth ability if slightly less reliable.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    CTP,

    You definitely need to talk about Shadow Enchantment and Greater Shadow Enchantment once you get a hold of Occult Realms or they hit the PRD. They let you use an illusion to poach all your 2nd (5th) and below enchantment spells for only one spell known. The downside is they get an extra disbelief save up front, but even if they make that there's a 20% (60%) chance it hits anyway and they make the normal save.

    Obviously this is great if you're not sure whether you want spell focus in illusion or enchantment - take it in illusion (including mindscapes and some other psychic only illusions) and it'll do double duty up to level 5 spells. Spell Perfect GSE with Greater Spell Focus and you've got access to any 5th or below enchantment at DC 20+Int (basically an auto heighten to level 6 + your GSF bonusx2) and you can slap a free Persistent Spell on to make Mass Suggestion, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Confusion, and lots of memory effects all come out of one spell known. It's pretty amazing flexibility.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by andreww View Post
    Interesting guide, thanks very much for writing it.

    A couple of things did jump out at me. For a caster class which has quite so many debuffs on its list it is hard to rate Persistent Spell as anything other than Blue. Forcing two saves, especially when you have the knowledge skills to be likely to be able to identify weaker saves provides a major boost in the chance of getting those debuffs to land. Really it is just the cornerstone feat for any control orientated caster.

    On traits it is very much worth including both Clever Wordplay and Student of Philosophy. Both turn Charisma skills into Int skills effectively allowing any Int primary class to easily act as the face character. With the recent FAQ/developer commentary on the way magic is always obvious it is useful to simply be able to steamroll most social encounters without relying on magic.

    I also think you underrate Amnesiac. It's power is not in prebuffing or combat use. It is a downtime ability allowing you to potentially poach any spell from your entire list and giving you enormous flexibility. It is similar to the Rebirth ability if slightly less reliable.
    Persistent Spell is certainly better than Heighten Spell, but your highest level spells will still have a higher save DC. Not sure what the math behind forcing two saves at a DC 2 lower, or one at a DC 2 higher works out to be, but it's certainly at least green. Not sure why I rated it black in the first place...

    Those are good tips for trait selection, but there's entire guides out there for traits. I just mentioned a few that came to mind.

    I added a new paragraph for Amnesiac. It's reminiscent of the Medium's Archmage spirit in many ways. I'm hesitant to rate it as better than the standard psychic; the Rebirth discipline alone is superior in nearly every way. The fact that the GM can just strip you of the entire archetype if they get tired of potential abuse is worthy of pause.

    It also seems to encourage a lot of amnesia-plagued psychic characters, which is a bit of an RP straightjacket. You shouldn't feel gimped if you want to play a psychic without a specific mental disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slithery D View Post
    CTP,

    You definitely need to talk about Shadow Enchantment and Greater Shadow Enchantment once you get a hold of Occult Realms or they hit the PRD. They let you use an illusion to poach all your 2nd (5th) and below enchantment spells for only one spell known. The downside is they get an extra disbelief save up front, but even if they make that there's a 20% (60%) chance it hits anyway and they make the normal save.

    Obviously this is great if you're not sure whether you want spell focus in illusion or enchantment - take it in illusion (including mindscapes and some other psychic only illusions) and it'll do double duty up to level 5 spells. Spell Perfect GSE with Greater Spell Focus and you've got access to any 5th or below enchantment at DC 20+Int (basically an auto heighten to level 6 + your GSF bonusx2) and you can slap a free Persistent Spell on to make Mass Suggestion, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Confusion, and lots of memory effects all come out of one spell known. It's pretty amazing flexibility.
    Wow, that does sound cool. It probably wouldn't be as strong in a caster-heavy game, though, unless you take pains to somehow conceal what you're casting. A successful Spellcraft would probably give an enemy a hefty bonus on the disbelieve saving throw at the very least.

    From a flavor perspective it's a bit puzzling, though. Shadow evocation and shadow conjuration are using the plane of shadow to simulate real phenomena (conjured items or creatures, or energy manipulation), but how does a shadow illusion replicate an enchantment spell?

    I guess the mindscape spells expand the potential of illusion magic… so you’re making a partially-real illusion of mind-control? o_O??

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    I guess you're simulating real mental manipulation processes with fake ones? Yeah, it's pretty meta, I don't buy it either from a lore perspective, but I'll take it. Here's a similar curveball, though - can you shadow enchant a beneficial enchantment buff spell like Heroism? Does the beneficiary have to fail a save or hit the real percentage for it to work? Does it auto-fail if he knows you're casting an illusionary version on him? Can you never buff yourself unless you roll 20/60% real chance? Weird stuff.

    Oh, and you can take spells 2nd/5th or lower of the enchantment school from the psychic, wizard, or sorcerer lists, NOT just your own. (Spell also available to Mesmerists and Bards). So not only does this give you broad access to extra spells for one spell known, it gives you access to off list spells, too. There aren't many Wiz/Sorc enchantment spells the Psychic doesn't already have, but there are some. (E.g. Symbol of Sleep/Laughter, some niche stuff from obscure publications.)
    Last edited by Slithery D; 2015-11-24 at 06:32 PM.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    There is one other thing to note if you are going to weld yourself into Full Plate and strap on a Tower Shield.

    If you are non proficient then the ACP applies to ability and skill checks:

    Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.

    That means your initiative will be in the toilet. Charisma secondary psychics can get round it with Scion of War but that takes up a feat and means you have Charisma as your secondary instad of the far better Wisdom. You can further mitigate things with Steadfast Personality but that means sinking two feats to get any benefit.

    On Persistent, it is sky blue. It is pretty much mandatory if you want to control. You can get away with Rods but you want it as a known feat if you want to control. Consider this situation:

    You are facing off against an enemy giant. Your options are charm monster or persistent suggestion. Lets say it has a will save of +9. Assuming your level 2 DC is 20 if needs an 11 to save. A straight 50/50 chance. With persistent you just increased that to a 75% chance of success. Using the level 4 spell you went from a 50% chance to succeed to 60%.

    Lets say you are now facing a mind flayer with a +14 will save. It needs a 6 to save against suggestion, only a 25% chance of success. Forcing two rolls makes that about 45%. Using a level 4 spell makes it about 35%.

    What about if you are facing something hopeless like a core rogue with a will save of +4. Suggestion works 75% of the time. Add persistent and it works about 94% of the time. Use charm instead and the chance of success is 85%.

    Adding persistent is pretty much always giving you a better chance of success than using a higher level spell. Of course you may get a better effect from the higher level spell but in terms of making things stick it is pretty brutal.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    I don't agree that abilities that sub a different attribute for Dex on Initiative remove the non-proficient penalty. I'd say it's a still a Dex check, you just use a different modifier. The Scion of War text supports this. You use your Cha modifier; you don't convert it to a Cha test.

    The rest is correct, a lot of people arguing over whether ACP applies to Initiative miss the non-proficient clause.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by Slithery D View Post
    I don't agree that abilities that sub a different attribute for Dex on Initiative remove the non-proficient penalty. I'd say it's a still a Dex check, you just use a different modifier. The Scion of War text supports this. You use your Cha modifier; you don't convert it to a Cha test.

    The rest is correct, a lot of people arguing over whether ACP applies to Initiative miss the non-proficient clause.
    Actually, the devs did rule that changing the attribute does change the type of test. Scion of War does switch initiative from Dex to Charisma completely, so it is no longer a Dexterity check under the rules and ACP won't apply to it anymore.

    The alternative example is if you simply add a second ability score to a check - this won't change the type of check. For example, Intimidating Prowess lets you add Strength to Intimidate, but you still add Charisma too, ergo Intimidate is still a Charisma-based check and will be modified by things that modify Charisma-based skill checks (like Elongated Cranium.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Considering the special limitations of how psychic magic works, I actually find it to be worthwhile to dip a level Fighter (Unbreakable) for the armour and shield proficiencies and get a hold on Heroic Defiance later on.

    As for control, first, I would leave that to the Mesmerist, as that class is damn good about it and has the right tools for it, second, I'd rather start with Ego Whip, sofening the target up for everything else that will come. Persistance is good, but in that case only as a MM rod, imho.

    (Actually, a one level Mesmerist dip is very good for Psychics, as they also gain access to the Mask Misery trick besides using the Stare, so you can prevent a total shutdown, something very humuliating for a full caster class)

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Honestly, Psychics get Mage Armor so I wouldn't get bent out of shape spending feats and dips and such just to be able to walk around in plate. You should be fine at low levels until you can buy Mithral Kikko or a Mithral Chain Shirt, which have no ACP and therefore no problems for your initiative even if you aren't proficient. You can even sleep in them since they are light.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    second, I'd rather start with Ego Whip, sofening the target up for everything else that will come. Persistance is good, but in that case only as a MM rod, imho.

    (Actually, a one level Mesmerist dip is very good for Psychics, as they also gain access to the Mask Misery trick besides using the Stare, so you can prevent a total shutdown, something very humuliating for a full caster class)
    1. Ego Whip is kind of bad/mediocre until high levels (will save penalty is half the listed number), and there are other spells that put a -2 penalty (shaken/sickened) on future saves for 1 round even if they make the initial save. Once you do have access to high level Ego Whip you also have access to Greater Shadow Enchantment to emulate it or Quickened Ill Omen to give you a lingering-somewhat-like-Persistent Spell effect at the cost of a 5th level spell and a swift action. In a lot of situations (non-caster, enemy needs move action, enemy doesn't have lots of attacks to burn off effect) even a regular 1st level Ill Omen can have a stronger effect than a high level Ego Whip. Avoid that trap option, get on Ill Omen tech. For best results, combine Quickened Ill Omen with Persistent Spell.

    2. Persistent is really good with Spell Perfection. You should definitely consider it as your third and last metamagic feat at high level.

    3. Emotion effects aren't a "total shutdown." There are quite a few good V component only spells, like Suggestion and Blindness/Deafness, that will enable you to take useful actions even when you're subject to a fear effect.
    Last edited by Slithery D; 2015-11-25 at 12:29 PM.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Also, a potion of remove fear takes care of shaken. If you have a more advanced state of fear, you wouldn't be casting spells anyway.

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Why isn't Assimar in the guide for other races.

    Peri-Blooded (Emberkin) seems perfect for a Cha based Psychic, as you get +2 int and +2 cha

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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Quote Originally Posted by Triskavanski View Post
    Why isn't Assimar in the guide for other races.

    Peri-Blooded (Emberkin) seems perfect for a Cha based Psychic, as you get +2 int and +2 cha
    Propably because there is an Aasimar/Tiefling for any stat combination imaginable?
    On a more serious note, right now with no FCB outside the core races, a race has to bring significant benefits to the table to be of any interest beyond a good stat soread, like Samsaran and Mystic Past Life.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: CTP's Guide to the Pathfinder Psychic

    Well the Int/Cha is the only combo there is for Asimar, nothing for Int/Wis.

    As far as useful things go

    Racial Traits: Crusading Magic to break through SR. True Speaker for all your Language Dependent needs. Scion of Humanity to count as a human and thus get the FCB of Human (Or Pick up racial heritage if you really wanted to be down a whole feat, to be able to have a third racial state)

    Beyond that, there is a little. +1 to illusions(Pattern) with a few feats, and some other stuff that yeah, aren't really too worth it. So yeah, other than a really good stat block, nothing too amazing I guess.
    Last edited by Triskavanski; 2015-12-13 at 09:07 AM.

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